Headache, daydreaming need help

[Tommy]

 

[Tommy]

What is the story about the farmer mean? One day the farmer goes out to the stable to find his horse running away. He could not catch the horse. His neighbors said that is bad luck to lose a horse like that. The next day the horse came back with another horse. Apparently, the horse missed his companion and went to find it. The neighbors said what good luck to have two horses. The next day, the farmer's son while trying to train the new horse, fell and broken his leg. The neighbors said such bad luck the new horse brought. The next day, the army came by to conscript all the young men in the village for their war. When they saw the farm's son, they saw his broken leg and left him. The neighbors said that it was such good luck his son had a broken leg so that now he does not have to fight in the war.

 

So, what is the truth or wisdom in this story? Is what you feed your mind today good for tomorrow? Or do we not see the truth because situations change all the time?

[Chang dao ling]

21 hours ago, Neirong said:

 

Another one, self-taught.
 

 

Daydreaming is not a practice. From your description you lack mental control and uncontrolled thoughts can come from mental parasites.

Visualization training can be approached after pre-requisites are met, you did not clear those first.

Thanks. Your correct 

[snowymountains]

10 hours ago, Tommy said:

Isn't suggesting to see a psychotherapist a way of saying that he needs help? Help can come in the form of a kind word of understanding.

 

I do not see it as an issue that requires help from a psychotherapist if there is no violent actions that follows those violent daydreams. He is reaching out to forum members for information.

 

Yes, he is asking why ... which shows concern which I believe it means he is not a psychopath or sociopath. It is part of his practice or a result of his practice which makes it a religious discussion. If it were just random daydreams then it would not be religious. Do the daydreams need to be of priest and nuns in order to be religious? But since it comes as a result of his practice of meditation which is part of Buddhism, ...., it becomes a religious discussion. It should not be dismissed. He is asking for compassion and wisdom.

 

Yeah, I know this forum can not handle certain situations and sometimes suggesting professional help is the better alternative to advice given on a forum. What to do? IDK. May be I should stop watching boxing because whatever one feeds the mind is what grows much like Karma. Plant a seed and it will grow. Never knowing for sure when and how it will come back to bite us in the a...

 

The way I read your response, you seem to assume its about correcting something behaviourally, but never said anything of the sort.

The goal may well be ... to understand why he sees what he sees, which was the question in the OP.

[Tommy]

3 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

The way I read your response, you seem to assume its about correcting something behaviourally, but never said anything of the sort.

The goal may well be ... to understand why he sees what he sees, which was the question in the OP.

Yes, you did not say that explicitly. But, the way I read your response, it did seem that way. To go to see a psychotherapist to find out why you are seeing violent daydreams. Isn't that what psychotherapist do? Help someone understand themselves so they can correct their behavior?? IDK. Anyway, I apologize for mis-reading your responses. I am very very sorry.

[snowymountains]

16 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Yes, you did not say that explicitly. But, the way I read your response, it did seem that way. To go to see a psychotherapist to find out why you are seeing violent daydreams. Isn't that what psychotherapist do? Help someone understand themselves so they can correct their behavior?? IDK. Anyway, I apologize for mis-reading your responses. I am very very sorry.

 

I'm only responsible for what I wrote though, not for how you interpret it.

 

In any case, there lots of reasons someone can see a therapist for, it's not only for disorder treatment or seeking a behavioural adjustment as you suggest.

 

Eg understanding why things happen is one of the common reasons, which was the question in the OP.

 

Anything that occurs systematically either like in this post through daydreaming ( not because of it ), or a recurring dream is worth exploring.

 

It's ok, it's clear you were reacting to something different to what I wrote but it was also worth discussing that psychotherapists are not there only for disorder treatment.

They're also infinitely more likely to help the OP find why it's happening, than internet forums.

[Tommy]

What is that teaching, ..., nothing arises by itself. All things arise in dependence upon their respective causes and conditions. They do not arise without a cause.

 

Words do not just denote a single meaning. They have connotations. Meanings associated with other things. And what is clear to you may not be clear to others. Communications is much like an art form. Not everyone gets it right away. Again, I apologize for my mistake.

Edited April 26 by Tommy

[Tommy]

Just wondering what kind of tests there would be .... If the OP had asked why does he sees lights while meditating? Would one have said go see a psychotherapist to figure out why? But, when he asked why he sees violent images, one says to go see a psychotherapist? Is it because of the nature of what he asked or because one believes it is wrong to see violence? I am not saying one response is better or worse. Just that the response shows the human mind. How one person just reacts (knee jerk) to another person's post instead of acting (mindful) upon the post. I know I have been much like that. So, where does wisdom and compassion reside in me?

Edited April 28 by Tommy

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

But, when he asked why he sees violent images, one says to go see a psychotherapist? Is it because of the nature of what he asked or because one believes it is wrong to see violence?

Because a psychotherapist might guide a person through that imagery, including help in resolving whatever feeds it?

Quote

 How one person just reacts (knee jerk) to another person's post instead of acting (mindful) upon the post.

The question is, was the intent of the OP to get some mindful support, or was it to get advice on how to get to a resolution of the described situation? 

 

One could as well change the positions on this: Why react in this way when the advice of talking to a psychotherapist is given? 

 

I would say that it is reasonable to belive that meditative practices can make repressed or inadequately processed experiences resurface. 

 

And then we can argue about which way to handle them is the best ( and therefore, most compassionate). 

Quote

 

 

[Tommy]

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Because a psychotherapist might guide a person through that imagery, including help in resolving whatever feeds it?

The question is, was the intent of the OP to get some mindful support, or was it to get advice on how to get to a resolution of the described situation? 

 

One could as well change the positions on this: Why react in this way when the advice of talking to a psychotherapist is given? 

 

I would say that it is reasonable to belive that meditative practices can make repressed or inadequately processed experiences resurface. 

 A

And then we can argue about which way to handle them is the best ( and therefore, most compassionate). 

 

It is not a question what the OP had as an intent when asking the question. It is about people who answer. Is it a knee jerk reaction or was it well thought out response. Was it because of the content of the question being violent images? What if it was about light he sees? Then would you recommend a psychotherapist in order to get to the reason for seeing lights? Was the response given a knee jerk reaction or was it a measured act? I am not a good judge of these things. IDK. So, I wonder about these things.

 

If the advice given was go see a psychotherapist no matter what the question was about then it would seem the response did not depend upon the question or nature of the question. However, since it does seem to be dependent upon the question, the response is dependent on the question. 

 

Yes, good point. Why react this way to advice given to talk with a psychotherapist?  IDK. If I was the OP asking such a question then I figure that the more advanced people here or more knowledgeable people here would be able to answer the question. And, that advice to go see a psychotherapist was a little mean and uncalled for? This OP took it well.

 

Yes, agreed that meditative practices can bring up strange things. Not always repressed or poorly processed experiences can arise. And that is my idea, that which is the most compassionate way to handle such situations. Some people will come to a forum for kind words. This is not a teacher - disciple relationship.

 

Never mind. I guess I am being overly critical.

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

Just wondering what kind of tests there would be .... If the OP had asked why does he sees lights while meditating? Would one have said go see a psychotherapist to figure out why? But, when he asked why he sees violent images, one says to go see a psychotherapist? Is it because of the nature of what he asked or because one believes it is wrong to see violence? I am not saying one response is better or worse. Just that the response shows the human mind. How one person just reacts (knee jerk) to another person's post instead of acting (mindful) upon the post. I know I have been much like that. So, where does wisdom and compassion reside in me?

 

Lights typically are meditation flagposts, ie nimittas, not unconscious projections, they have a different origin.

 

Here however the OP is seeing imaginary, a projection from his unconscious, and wants to know what it is.  

 

Ideally psychoanalysis is the best fit for finding out but the time commitment is *very significant*.

Psychotherapy is a good second best fit, depending on the training of the therapist ( eg a CBT therapist may not be the best fit for this particular question ) - which is why the OP may ask them if they've got experience with daydreaming.

 

It would be good to be aware what psychotherapists do before criticising the advice to see one.

From your posts it seems to me you believe they do things they don't do ( eg "diseases" , it's clinical psychologists and psychiatrists that treat eg psychosis, not psychotherapists ), or believe they work exclusively with eg disorders, which is not the case.

 

The alternative would be to speculate here, which I won't do, as this won't help the OP answer his question. Hence the advice to find someone close to his place who can.

 

 

[Forestgreen]

31 minutes ago, Tommy said:

 

If I was the OP asking such a question then I figure that the more advanced people here or more knowledgeable people here would be able to answer the question. 

Many people with nasty life experiences try to find peace through meditative arts. 

 

Based on that I would say that an advanced practitioner, or someone with experience in the field, would consider discussing a potential reaction in a public forum unethical. 

 

Someone could always write something like "you have congested Liver Qi which causes phlegm to affect the orifices of the Heart", but I am sure most TCM practitioners would prefer to see the person before answering such a question. 

 

Kind words are less compassionate than an attempt to actually help.

 

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

Lights typically are meditation flagposts, ie nimittas, not unconscious projections, they have a different origin.

......

The alternative would be to speculate here, which I won't do, as this won't help the OP answer his question. Hence the advice to find someone close to his place who can.

 

 

So, you are saying the content of the question matters which why you advised to see a psychoanalysis. And seeing lights is a flagposts. Okay. I am not trying to contentious. Just trying to understand Obviously you see this situation more clearly than I do.

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

 

Kind words are less compassionate than an attempt to actually help.

 

I was on another forum which I had done just that. Attempt to actually help where the person who wrote 5 separate threads about the same thing. My advice was straight forward. But apparently it didn't help the person cause she reported my post as inappropriate. The moderators sided with me and left my post alone. Others there said a kind word would have gone further to help. So, am at a loss. And questioning this one. 

 

But, as I said, never mind. It is not important. I am just being overly critical.

Edited April 28 by Tommy

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

 

Others there said a kind word would have gone further to help. 

I would interpret that in another way ( which you are free to disagree with): Some prefer to have their suffering affirmed rather than dealt with.  If that is the point of voicing it, a kind word is better.  But the suffering would remain. 

 

A person who cannot help with the actual issue can give valuable support,  someone who know a way to alleviate the suffering will point to that. 

 

So, different solutions. There is no one size fits all.

[johndoe2012]

Violent images could indicate beings connected to the OPs energy system that needs to get kicked out. 

 

Cultivating compassion, wishing everyone kindness is one way to deal with such beings. 

[johndoe2012]

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

It is not a question what the OP had as an intent when asking the question. It is about people who answer. Is it a knee jerk reaction or was it well thought out response. Was it because of the content of the question being violent images? What if it was about light he sees? Then would you recommend a psychotherapist in order to get to the reason for seeing lights? Was the response given a knee jerk reaction or was it a measured act? I am not a good judge of these things. IDK. So, I wonder about these things.

 

If the advice given was go see a psychotherapist no matter what the question was about then it would seem the response did not depend upon the question or nature of the question. However, since it does seem to be dependent upon the question, the response is dependent on the question. 

 

Yes, good point. Why react this way to advice given to talk with a psychotherapist?  IDK. If I was the OP asking such a question then I figure that the more advanced people here or more knowledgeable people here would be able to answer the question. And, that advice to go see a psychotherapist was a little mean and uncalled for? This OP took it well.

 

Yes, agreed that meditative practices can bring up strange things. Not always repressed or poorly processed experiences can arise. And that is my idea, that which is the most compassionate way to handle such situations. Some people will come to a forum for kind words. This is not a teacher - disciple relationship.

 

Never mind. I guess I am being overly critical.

 

Tommy, you can block people on this forum to not see their responses but maybe take a look at your own reaction to get to neutral when someone is posting an opinion you do not agree with. 

 

My own opinion is that psychotherapy is not applicable to all spiritual issues. In fact it is very limited. 

[Tommy]

53 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

Tommy, you can block people on this forum to not see their responses but maybe take a look at your own reaction to get to neutral when someone is posting an opinion you do not agree with. 

 

My own opinion is that psychotherapy is not applicable to all spiritual issues. In fact it is very limited. 

I feel that blocking people only makes me smaller as I would then be uncapable of handling the situation. And it would make my world smaller as it shuts out other ideas. I do not argue with anyone here. Only ask questions to learn more. I apologize to anyone who thinks I have offended them.

 

My thoughts were that this was a spiritual question related to one's practice. There are many who do not have teachers nor sanghas to help them. So, being sent to a psychotherapist was not entirely helpful? IDK. It may be what the OP needed. It may not. Again IDK. And I apologize for my rudeness in asking these kind of questions.

[Forestgreen]

Before I joined,  perhaps 2 months back (?), there were a thread where people discussed Jung. 

My guess is that the ones involved find (spiritual) value in that.

 

Me, I prefer psychotherapy based on sensory processing.  Sensory processing,  might include things like mindfulness, working through old impressions, things like that.  

Part of buddhism, so could be useful while on a spiritual journey. 

I'm based here though,  my personal practice is heavily based on rather directed sensory processing. Guess those shaolin dudes thought that might be useful. 

 

Useful for every situation? 

No, but a student under a teacher or a sangha member would be known, and anyone giving advice would have more information to base that advice on. 

 

And that would include being more able to separate emotional from spiritual issues.

 

I do not think anyone is offended. 

It's a discussion forum, we should discuss things, and it is healthy to have different opinions. We don't have to agree either,  we just have to remain polite. 

[silent thunder]

What stranger on the internet would/could be considered a qualified observer in any other stranger's inner life/health on any matter of significance?  Any advice offered in response to such queries will remain superficial simply due to lack of context, based on the story and assumptions created in their mind.   Particularly in areas of life that are complex and deeply seeded.

 

Even when one knows a person well and intecedes in their life assuming they can improve it.  It's an improvement based on the interceder's projection and assumption.  Based on their story of what's going on.  Assuming you know what will trigger healing/release in another is just an assumption. 

 

There is simply no way to know what the outcome of interference/advice/intercession will bring.  How are any of us to know what may prompt an awakening/release/healing in another?  What may be required to shift their awareness?  Could likely be any interference we offer is an impediment no matter how well intentioned. 

[Tommy]

Just realized that it is similar to the car forums where a person says that his car is having problems starting. He then states that he has replaced the starter but still have the problem. Then asks if anyone knows what problem is. There is just not enough information to make any real diagnosis. As a person who knows a little bit about cars, I know right away there is not enough information to give any advice.

 

The OP, in this thread, has stated his issue and question. But, he has not given much information. So, as advice might be plentiful, it still misses the mark of being helpful since there is not enough information given. It is a shot in the dark.

 

I am sorry to have taken this thread into a tangent.

Edited April 29 by Tommy

[doc benway]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:51 AM, Chang dao ling said:

Hi, i am practicing visualization meditation i am getting headache and I want to daydream. Yesterday i started to do mental violence in daydreaming why Is this happening?

 

A few comments fwiw...

 

Visualization practice and daydreaming are closely related as both involve fixing the attention in imagery, one spontaneous and the other contrived at first, ultimately becoming spontaneous. As we sharpen our familiarity and degree of focus in generating a mental image, it is no surprise that dreaming (day and/or night) may become more vivid and more pronounced. Headaches, as mentioned, are likely a sign of too much tension and effort.

 

In the Bön paradigm, violence in our dreams suggests activation of (or fixation on) the throat chakra which is related to the asura (demi-god) realm. Characteristics of this realm include a tendency toward endless violence related to pride, wrath, a sense of lack or need, and related emotions. Our day (and night) dreams reflect whatever is affecting us in life at any given moment. This includes suppressed and repressed psychological content, memories and so on, but also whatever we are exposed to in our day to day. Are we watching or reading news (violence), are we playing video games (violence), practicing martial arts (violence), watching films and series (so much violence)? Is there repressed/suppressed violence in our past or that of our loved ones and ancestors? It's certainly present in our societies - we are immersed in and pervaded by violence if we are not cautious consumers and this will undoubtedly be reflected in our dream life. 

 

What to do? If working with deity visualization, deity yoga, mantra and so forth, I think it's very important to have some expert guidance. This includes transmission and permission to practice. In Bön and Buddhism there is a practice called the Six Lokas practice. This is a way to purify and transform negative emotions and interrupt dysfunctional patterns related to being stuck in one of the six samsaric realms through visualization and mantra. Dream Yoga is another wonderful practice for addressing when we are stuck in samsaric patterns and experiences. These are just two examples, not intended to be personalized recommendations. My own practice focuses much more on a dzogchen approach at this point. I think it's important for each of us to find what fits and works well for us. Finally, doing whatever we can to address the psychological variable and our relationship to external stimuli are critical pieces of the spiritual puzzle.

 

 

[Chang dao ling]

On 5/8/2024 at 5:18 PM, steve said:

 

A few comments fwiw...

 

Visualization practice and daydreaming are closely related as both involve fixing the attention in imagery, one spontaneous and the other contrived at first, ultimately becoming spontaneous. As we sharpen our familiarity and degree of focus in generating a mental image, it is no surprise that dreaming (day and/or night) may become more vivid and more pronounced. Headaches, as mentioned, are likely a sign of too much tension and effort.

 

In the Bön paradigm, violence in our dreams suggests activation of (or fixation on) the throat chakra which is related to the asura (demi-god) realm. Characteristics of this realm include a tendency toward endless violence related to pride, wrath, a sense of lack or need, and related emotions. Our day (and night) dreams reflect whatever is affecting us in life at any given moment. This includes suppressed and repressed psychological content, memories and so on, but also whatever we are exposed to in our day to day. Are we watching or reading news (violence), are we playing video games (violence), practicing martial arts (violence), watching films and series (so much violence)? Is there repressed/suppressed violence in our past or that of our loved ones and ancestors? It's certainly present in our societies - we are immersed in and pervaded by violence if we are not cautious consumers and this will undoubtedly be reflected in our dream life. 

 

What to do? If working with deity visualization, deity yoga, mantra and so forth, I think it's very important to have some expert guidance. This includes transmission and permission to practice. In Bön and Buddhism there is a practice called the Six Lokas practice. This is a way to purify and transform negative emotions and interrupt dysfunctional patterns related to being stuck in one of the six samsaric realms through visualization and mantra. Dream Yoga is another wonderful practice for addressing when we are stuck in samsaric patterns and experiences. These are just two examples, not intended to be personalized recommendations. My own practice focuses much more on a dzogchen approach at this point. I think it's important for each of us to find what fits and works well for us. Finally, doing whatever we can to address the psychological variable and our relationship to external stimuli are critical pieces of the spiritual puzzle.

 

 

Thank you very much 🙏 

[exorcist_1699]

Hardly is visualization viewed by  Taoism as any kind of decent way  despite it likely being  the hottest way proposed by many people . I view it as one belongs to those  ways  which "  you can easily come across in your lifetime ,  yet hardly does it  make you succeed "  ( " 易遇而難成" )  .  Of course,  to its opposite , you get those  ways  which "  seldom can you  come across in your lifetime ,  yet  it likely enables  you succeed " (" 難遇 而易成") .

 

Headache :  you stop practicing such way, then it will recede.

 

Headache due to  having initialized uncontrollable qi :  Shift your attention back to lower dantian  and withdraw your qi to it ;  or shift your attention to the  bottom of  your feet , say the acupuncture points  " 涌泉 " :

[Chang dao ling]

27 minutes ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Hardly is visualization viewed by  Taoism as any kind of decent way  despite it likely being  the hottest way proposed by many people . I view it as one belongs to those  ways  which "  you can easily come across in your lifetime ,  yet hardly does it  make you succeed "  ( " 易遇而難成" )  .  Of course,  to its opposite , you get those  ways  which "  seldom can you  come across in your lifetime ,  yet  it likely enables  you succeed " (" 難遇 而易成") .

 

Headache :  you stop practicing such way, then it will recede.

 

Headache due to  having initialized uncontrollable qi :  Shift your attention back to lower dantian  and withdraw your qi to it ;  or shift your attention to the  bottom of  your feet , say the acupuncture points  " 涌泉 " :

Thanks. What's the location of lower dantian according to your system?