Cultivating the mind through the body

[exorcist_1699]

Cultivating the mind via the body , which composed of jing and qi , is possible .

 

Cultivating  the mind via the mind itself  is nearly impossible for whatever ways you adopt , say visualizing something , singing whatever name of your gods,  focusing whatever strength on something ..etc , you are in fact :

 

1)in that process ,  using up your jing and qi, which conversely weaken your  spiritual power ;  for example, spending a whole day singing the name of Buddha, in fact,  drain a lot of jing and qi from the practitioner, especially for old people , which makes greater spiritual achievement not likely .

 

2) A mind can only be nourished by a much bigger , powerful  Mind , not a trivial mind itself.  You , in fact, cannot grind a brick into a  mirror.  Or,  put it  in other way :  If a horse cart does not move forward, which one should you whip ? The cart or the horse ?

Edited May 2 by exorcist_1699

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-04-25 at 3:48 AM, Maddie said:

 Lately I find this concept interesting and would like to know more about this and how it works.

From very basic to more complex:

Basic muscle stretching will help shifting from a sympathetic to a parasympathetic state. It will also rejuvenate the function of the bloodvessels, it has antiinflammatory effects, and helps in improving microvascular blood circulation in the organs and the brain. 

 

Basic weight shifting and basic arm movements will affect blood pressure mechanisms in the body. The arterial baroreflex is active in most stress reactions, and balancing that function will affect current and old stress reactions.

 

Physical movements, especially if one manage to add proper pressure changes in the body and the right mind state, will help the bodymind to reenact unintegrated sensory memories, thus defusing them.

 

Some physical movements can aid in specific sensory processing.  It is really helpful to do this under qualified guidance though. 

 

Some physical movements puts you through a sequence of emotional reactions that mimic more intense situations. 

I wouldn't recommend doing that without qualified help. 

 

There is a specific movement ( actually scientifically validated) that affect the core Self, so it becomes less dominated by autobiographical memories and cognitive schemat.

 

All of this lessens the risk of a practitioner building up too much internal pressure which might result in breakdown rather than a breakthrough.

 

[Mark Foote]

On 5/1/2024 at 8:57 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

You , in fact, cannot grind a brick into a  mirror.  Or,  put it  in other way :  If a horse cart does not move forward, which one should you whip ? The cart or the horse ?
 

 

 

When the Ch'an master Ta-chi of Chiang-hsi was studying with the Ch'an master Ta-hui of Nan-yüeh, after intimately receiving the mind seal, he always sat in meditation. Once Nan-yüeh went to Ta-chi and said, "Worthy one, what are you figuring to do, sitting there in meditation?

Chiang-hsi said, 'I'm figuring to make a Buddha."

 

At this point, Nan-yüeh took up a tile and began to rub it on a stone. At length, Ta-chi asked, "Master, what are you doing?"

 

Nan-yüeh said, "I'm polishing this to make a mirror."

 

Ta-chi said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?"

 

Nan-yüeh replied, "How can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

 

Ta-chi asked, "Then, what is right?"

 

Nan-yüeh replied, "When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?"

 

Ta-chi did not reply.

 

Nan-yüeh went on, "Are you studying seated meditation or are you studying seated Buddha?"

 

"If you're studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. If you're studying seated Buddha, Buddha is no fixed mark."

 

"If you're studying seated Buddha, this is killing Buddha."

 

"If you grasp the mark of sitting, you're not reaching its principle."

 

(commentary on "The Lancet of Seated Meditation", "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, 1st ed., p 191--available on Terebess)

 

 

The first thing Dogen wrote when he came back from China was his "Fukan zazen gi", or "instructions for zazen".  He gave detailed, explicit instructions about the posture in sitting.  He apparently rewrote "Fukan zazen gi" a number of times, and the instructions he gave were largely based on a Chinese instruction manual he must have copied while he was in China.

 

Goes to the heart of the matter, IMO, that he rewrote the instructions several times.  Gautama gave no such instructions, other than:

 

... gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, (a mendicant) sits down cross-legged, sets their body straight, and establishes mindfulness in front of them. 

(Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta—Bhikkhu Sujato, suttacentral dot net)
 

 

So "sets their body straight."  Gautama then talks about thought initial and sustained applied to particular aspects of the body, the feelings, the mind, and the mental states--nothing of the kind of postural instruction that Dogen felt was so important.

 

Dogen does say:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

(Eihei Dogen, “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version, trans. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

I do have things I rely on, in order to understand the patterns that develop in kinesthesiology when "making self-surrender the object of thought", I "lay hold of concentration, lay hold of one-pointedness of mind".    Beating the horse instead of the cart is letting go of the placement of attention, of any specific location of consciousness, in favor of the free placement of attention/consciousness anywhere in the body.  And in that regard, Gautama had plenty to say.

Fifty years of rewriting the interplay of instructions in the teachings and modern Western kinesthesiology, to be able to approach the patterns Gautama described.

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.
 

For most people, the fact that these patterns are vague and that the kinesthesiology must yield to the placement of attention is too much to stomach.  If you're feeling brave:  A Natural Mindfulness.

 

 

Edited May 4 by Mark Foote

[Sanity Check]

Quote

Cultivating the mind through the body

 

 

The super computer architecture used for genetic sequencing in Jurassic Park was (trivia question bonus points to those who knew the answer): multi XMP. The chip hardware used in the XMP system was designed by a man called Seymour Cray.

 

While Seymour Cray was no taoist or TCM practitioner (to my knowledge).

 

He had an interesting method of cultivating his mind through his body which he enthusiastically shared & publicized.

 

He would dig large holes and possibly even tunnels in his backyard using hand tools. Pickaxe, shovel, etc.

 

He found this would stimulate his mind and help him to solve problems that had him stuck in a rut.

 

That could be one good example of cultivating the mind through the body.

 

Something which may be attainable even to those who do not seek to cultivate qi.

 

 

Edited May 5 by Sanity Check

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

 

The super computer architecture used for genetic sequencing in Jurassic Park was (trivia question bonus points to those who knew the answer): multi XMP. The chip hardware used in the XMP system was designed by a man called Seymour Cray.

 

While Seymour Cray was no taoist or TCM practitioner (to my knowledge).

 

He had an interesting method of cultivating his mind through his body which he enthusiastically shared & publicized.

 

He would dig large holes and possibly even tunnels in his backyard using hand tools. Pickaxe, shovel, etc.

 

He found this would stimulate his mind and help him to solve problems that had him stuck in a rut.

 

That could be one good example of cultivating the mind through the body.

 

Something which may be attainable even to those who do not seek to cultivate qi.

 

 

Something in me, dark and sticky
All the time it's getting strong
No way of dealing with this feeling
Can't go on like this too long

 

... Digging in the dirt
Stay with me, I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt

 

... The more I look, the more I find
As I close on in, I get so blind
I feel it in my head, I feel it in my toes
I feel it in my sex, that's the place it goes

 

... Digging in the dirt
Stay with me, I need support
I'm digging in the dirt
To find the places I got hurt
Open up the places I got hurt

 

(from "Digging in the Dirt", Peter Gabriel)

 

 

[Sahaja]

On 4/24/2024 at 6:48 PM, Maddie said:

My original interest at the beginning of my journey was Qigong which led to an interest in Taoism. Although I found Taoism confusing and I had a hard time getting explanations to my questions so I eventually turned to Buddhism. As most people know Buddhism emphasizes the mind. It cultivates the mind through the mind primarily. 

 If I understand correct there is an aspect of Taoism that accesses the mind through the body? Lately I find this concept interesting and would like to know more about this and how it works.

One way of looking at this is that qi is the fluid of the mind that connects the mind with the body.  So I would say the work you do is an acupuncturist is working on the body to influence the mind in the sense of the mind’s involvement in using qi (its fluid) to regulate processes in the body.. 

 

My understanding of some Daoist approaches is that you are really working both simultaneously. Listening (ting - attention or mental presence without the intellect) and sung (relaxation - release of physical and mental contractions) involve both the mind and the body. In the early stages of qi gong it’s about learning to connect with the qi through listening/attention to use it deep inside to create physical bodily changes (“tendon changing”). These physical changes later enable changes in the mind to arise (part of “marrow washing”). 
 

Ultimately development of attention(ting) skills to a very high level (and related mindbody changes) allow you to move beyond identification with the limited self and things talked about like samadhi, sympathetic joy (joy without a cause) naturally  arise. Initially on this path you develop mental focus to stabilize awareness then you dial back the intention inherent in mental focus to bring you toward purer attention (purer means not goal directed, not full of discursive thought- just listening, just receiving without adding thoughts). Once you have this skill at a very basic level you can connect directly with the qi in your body to affect and effect change (e.g. form Dan tian, etc.) These bodily changes in turn change the mind and back again in an iterative supportive fashion. Working with the qi to change the body has the added benefit of having a physical manifestation that can be seen and felt (by yourself and others) to help avoid potential for delusion of mind based approaches that don’t early on have such an observable manifestation in our shared physical reality.
 

It’s my understanding that each of these separate paths (mind path, body path) has a different outcome with different characteristics, though if truly done correctly the achievement of one ultimately achieves the other so both fruits are obtained. However, done incorrectly or partially can result in errors like delusion/depression (stuck in the void) or energy sickness (mania).  The Daoist approaches I am familiar with are based on the view that the mind and body are not two separate things but  one made up of many layers (very similar to other Eastern traditions)  What you do at one level or layer affects all the other layers.  Philosophically wu wei (non governance, lack of intention) and Yin Yang, (balancing between the two aspects of cultivation) are integral to this path.