LDT meditation without a teacher

[Forestgreen]

If you write "via TCM", the likelyhood of that is really small.

Edited April 26 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

If you write "via TCM", the likelyhood of that is really small.

 

I guess it depends on what we mean by neidan? 

[stirling]

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

One might argue: 

 

Isn't it about saving all sentient beings, not a personal, transactional relationship?  How could someone who possess such art have any need for goodwill? And imagine how one could destroy all the fake, seminar-selling pseudo-Daoists by exposing the actual information? And if it's truly self-secret, then what harm can come?

 

Although, most people probably won't go for it if they have to give up wine, sex, and meat.

 

To satisfy my own curiosity, and not specifically a question for YOU, Forest:

 

IS it "about saving all sentient beings"? If not, then what?

 

What might a short description of the desired end result of these practices include?

 

Is there only ONE set of practices that might bring about this result? 

 

Why would these teachings be secret?

 

What does "immortal" (if that is part of the desired result) mean in plain language? What is the day to day experience of an "immortal" like?

 

Who or what chooses or determines a "chosen one"?

 

These are NOT trick questions or the set-ups for a "gotcha".

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

This exceptional book explains " LDT meditation technique" for  virtue, health, power and wisdom in complete detail.

Who could  get these results from this book will be able to advance to neidan. 

 

Surprised, but delighted to see something so common and available on the end of your link.   

 

Just in perusing the linked book:

 

Quote

Appearances are illusory; practitioners should not be quick to believe illusions are realities. Chuang-tzu said, “The Way can be attained, but not seen.” When you sense ‘being’ within ‘nonbeing,’ only then can it be called ‘true being.’ Although there is no such thing as true being in the body, there is actually an experience, by which one can transform oneself. Once attained, it is realized forever. - Wang Hsien-ch’ing, from "Meditation and Health Principles and Practices", Translated and Edited by Thomas Cleary

 

You could tell me that this is Tibetan Buddhism and I would buy it. These messages, while couched differently, are entirely familiar. It implies that this is all that needs to be done. What does the "next step" of your neidan work add to "true being"?

Edited April 26 by stirling

[Maddie]

57 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

If you write "via TCM", the likelyhood of that is really small.

 

If the goal of neidan is building jing to increase longevity then yes I do this with TCM

[Forestgreen]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

If the goal of neidan is building jing to increase longevity then yes I do this with TCM

Neidan is supposed to work on reversing the flow, to return to the pre-heaven "substances". As far as I know,  TCM doesn't do that,  but I would be delighted if you can prove me wrong. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Forestgreen said:

Neidan is supposed to work on reversing the flow, to return to the pre-heaven "substances". As far as I know,  TCM doesn't do that,  but I would be delighted if you can prove me wrong. 

 

This was why I was trying to pin down the definition of neidan you were using. To be fair the goal of TCM isn't that, but as a TCM practitioner I tend to use it for beyond the scope of just medical treatment. 

[Forestgreen]

54 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I guess it depends on what we mean by neidan? 

I agree that the term is used in a wide variety of was,  and the risk that we are talking about different things is rather large.  

I might add that I do not practice daoist neidan, I'm doing a buddhist alchemical practice. 

 

[Maddie]

Just now, Forestgreen said:

I agree that the term is used in a wide variety of was,  and the risk that we are talking about different things is rather large.  

I might add that I do not practice daoist neidan, I'm doing a buddhist alchemical practice. 

 

 

Interesting, I'm Buddhist but do not know what that is from a Buddhist point of view. 

[Forestgreen]

That is because after the great reforms that hit buddhism, these methods were made less publicly known. 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

That is because after the great reforms that hit buddhism, these methods were made less publicly known. 

 

I see. So what is Buddhist neidan then? And what are the great reforms?

Edited April 26 by Maddie

[Forestgreen]

6 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 To be fair the goal of TCM isn't that, 

There is at least one branch/school of TCM that was heavily influenced by what we tend to call neidan. 

[Maddie]

Just now, Forestgreen said:

There is at least one branch/school of TCM that was heavily influenced by what we tend to call neidan. 

 

I would be one of those lol 

[Forestgreen]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

And what are the great reforms?

You can probably search this site for boran kammatthana.

[Forestgreen]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I would be one of those lol 

Then you should have a full understanding of Ming practices. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Forestgreen said:

Then you should have a full understanding of Ming practices. 

 

I do not lol 

[Forestgreen]

When it comes to the actual practice, what I do is described in the WuZhenPian.  

Or, to be fair,  what I do can be interpreted as being similar to that process.  In reality,  who knows. 

Edited April 26 by Forestgreen

[Maddie]

3 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

When it comes to the actual practice, what I do is described in the WuZhenPian.  

Or, to be fair,  what I do can be interpreted as being similar to that process.  In reality,  who knows. 

 

I use acupuncture and herbs (mainly Jing) tonics to increase jing and qi for health and longevity. 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

You could tell me that this is Tibetan Buddhism and I would buy it. These messages, while couched differently, are entirely familiar. It implies that this is all that needs to be done. What does the "next step" of your neidan work add to "true being"?

Thanks and sorry. This is something lost in translation. This passage should be read not with 'being' as in 'human being' in mind, but 'being' as 'a thing' Like below

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Appearances are illusory; practitioners should not be quick to believe illusions are realities. Chuang-tzu said, “The Way can be attained, but not seen.” When you sense ‘a thing’ within ‘no-thing,’ only then can it be called ‘a true thing.’ Although there is no such thing as true thing in the body, there is actually an experience, by which one can transform oneself. Once attained, it is realized forever. - Wang Hsien-ch’ing, from "Meditation and Health Principles and Practices", Translated and Edited by Thomas Cleary

 

whereas the thing in question is the internal elixir, the neidan

 

[stirling]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Thanks and sorry. This is something lost in translation. This passage should be read not with 'being' as in 'human being' in mind, but 'being' as 'a thing' Like below

 

whereas the thing in question is the internal elixir, the neidan

 

 

By being it seemed to me to be suggesting (to be)... presence without self, or awareness. No? I read it as a non-dual statement: When you sense form within emptiness, the it can only be called a true "emptiness"? 

 

The internal elixir is (neidan) in this case is... ?

 

[Taoist Texts]

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

By being it seemed to me to be suggesting (to be)... presence without self, or awareness. No?

well yes when the neidan appears you are indeed without self/awareness. But here being is the neidan

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

I read it as a non-dual statement: When you sense form within emptiness, the it can only be called a true "emptiness"? 

if by form you will mean the literal form of a literal thing then yes

9 minutes ago, stirling said:

The internal elixir is (neidan) in this case is... ?

well it sounds outlandish  but it is a literal new thing in your body: varying between a luminous golden pearl (or a millet grain) to a bright red shiny tangerine-sized ball.

[stirling]

18 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well yes when the neidan appears you are indeed without self/awareness. But here being is the neidan

if by form you will mean the literal form of a literal thing then yes

well it sounds outlandish  but it is a literal new thing in your body: varying between a luminous golden pearl (or a millet grain) to a bright red shiny tangerine-sized ball.

 

OK then. I feel this coming together.  So I no longer have a "self" and have the day to day experience of "form is emptiness/emptiness is form". There is just objectless "beingness", but I haven't seen any luminous gold or red shiny balls precipitate. What would cause one to do so? Where would one see or find such a thing?

 

This reminds me of some of the stories about the remains of dead Tibetan masters, and how the leave "pearls" after death:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Śarīra#

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

This exceptional book explains " LDT meditation technique" for  virtue, health, power and wisdom in complete detail.

Who could  get these results from this book will be able to advance to neidan. 

 

Surprised, but delighted to see something so common and available on the end of your link.   

 

Just in perusing the linked book:

 

Quote

Appearances are illusory; practitioners should not be quick to believe illusions are realities. Chuang-tzu said, “The Way can be attained, but not seen.” When you sense ‘being’ within ‘nonbeing,’ only then can it be called ‘true being.’ Although there is no such thing as true being in the body, there is actually an experience, by which one can transform oneself. Once attained, it is realized forever. - Wang Hsien-ch’ing, from "Meditation and Health Principles and Practices", Translated and Edited by Thomas Cleary

 

I think almost the same is to be found in the golden flower, (also from Cleary I think) I did indeed interpret as about the human body, roughly meaning at the start of you practice you become aware of "non being" "chi" ZongMai in the middle of your flesh body .

late in the practice comes " when you sense being ( ie the fleshbody) within nonbeing ( the aura, or the subtle body) within what I call the bubble.

 

ah yes, found it, not Cleary

Quote

2.When one begins to apply this charm, it is as if in the middle of existence there is nothingness. When in the course of time the work is completed and beyond the body there is a body, it is as if in the middle of nothingness there is existence.   

https://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch3.html

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

You could tell me that this is Tibetan Buddhism and I would buy it. These messages, while couched differently, are entirely familiar. It implies that this is all that needs to be done. What does the "next step" of your neidan work add to "true being"?

 

the lineage of my teacher has some Tibetan roots among others.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well it sounds outlandish  but it is a literal new thing in your body: varying between a luminous golden pearl (or a millet grain) to a bright red shiny tangerine-sized ball.

 

A millet pearl dropped into my body, it was like " huh, what's this"

 

adding to this, My teacher steered me away from any reading and a lot of things happened. When I asked questions he mostly told me "you just practice, it's going well.  Later I started reading and found descriptions that rang a bell.

 

Quote

3. Only after concentrated work of a hundred days will the light be genuine, only then will it become spirit-fire. After a hundred days, from a point of real yang in the light, suddenly a millet pearl is born by itself, just as an embryo forms from the intercourse of a man and a woman. Then you should attend it calmly and quietly. The turning around of the light is the firing process.        

https://thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch3.html

Edited April 26 by blue eyed snake

[silent thunder]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Oh I thought you meant ‘entities’ …but insects?

Bees and flowers and spiders and lakes and sand and waterfalls and...

[blue eyed snake]

54 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Bees and flowers and spiders and lakes and sand and waterfalls and...

 

trees

[ChiDragon]

From the Title of the OP, I think you have some idea about the Neidan already. LDT meditation is the key to reach the realm of Neidan. If you know how to do that, then, no teacher is required.