Daoism and Advaita Vedanta - convergence

[dwai]

 

The Philosophical Convergence of Daoism and Vedanta

Daoist and Vedantic philosophies, despite their distinct origins, share remarkable similarities in their views on reality, the nature of the self, and how to live in harmony with the universe. Two core concepts exemplify this convergence: the Daoist principle of reversion and the Vedantic concept of nivritti. Additionally, there's a striking parallel between the Daoist concept of wu wei and the Vedantic principle of nishkama karma.

 

Daoist Reversion and Vedantic Nivritti

 

 

 

 

Feature	Daoism (Reversion)	Vedanta (Nivritti)
Core Concept	Cyclical return to the Dao, the source of all being	Inward return to the Atman (true Self), which is one with Brahman (absolute reality)
Emphasis	Non-attachment to transient phenomena	Renunciation of worldly desires and ego-based identity
Goal	Rediscovering natural simplicity and harmony	Realization of oneness and liberation

Daoist Wu Wei and Vedantic Nishkama Karma

 

 

 

 

Feature	Daoism (Wu Wei)	Vedanta (Nishkama Karma)
Core Concept	Non-action, effortless action, aligning with the Dao	Action without attachment to results, dedication of action to the divine
Approach	Intuition, spontaneity, non-interference	Focus on duty, surrendering the fruits of action
Outcome	Flowing with change, inner stillness	Inner peace, freedom from ego-driven desires

Stillness, Silence, and the Path of Return

Both Daoism and Vedanta place great value on the cultivation of inner stillness and silence. This stillness is not merely the absence of external noise but a profound quieting of the mind and its constant fluctuations.

• Daoism: Stillness reflects a return to the natural state of the Dao. Like still water reflecting the world without distortion, a still mind reveals the true nature of things.
• Vedanta: Silence and stillness are seen as vital for the inward journey of nivritti. In the silence of the mind, the illusions of the ego dissolve, allowing the realization of the true Self.

Key Similarities Across Concepts

• Return to the Source: Both philosophies emphasize a profound journey of returning to our original, unconditioned state, which exists at the core of our existence.
• Non-Attachment: Liberation is seen as fundamentally linked to non-attachment, whether to worldly desires, the fruits of action, or even the ego-bound sense of self.
• Inner Transformation: The realization of these principles requires deep introspection, inner transformation, and a letting go of limiting beliefs and patterns of behavior.
• Cultivation of Stillness: Both traditions see inner silence and stillness as essential tools for accessing deeper levels of awareness and the wisdom within.

While these philosophies hold nuanced differences in their specific ontologies and methods, the profound overlap in their core concepts serves as a testament to a shared human search for meaning, tranquility, and a harmonious way of life.

PS: generated using Gemini advanced

[Bindi]

 Not exactly Vedanta but this is what “Hindupedia” has to say about similarities between “Hinduism” and Daoism: https://www.hindupedia.com/en/Daoism_and_Hinduism
 

Quote

 

Dualism

Reality is classified with a dualistic outlook, such as ethical vs. unethical, life force vs. mortality, soul vs. matter.

Whereas in Daoism dualism is illustrated using the yin-yang symbol, in Hinduism (especially in Tantrism) it's shown using the shatkona (its top part is masculine energy and bottom is feminine energy.) Essentially, they demonstrate harmony between opposites. Whereas the harmony in Daoism is known as Wuji, in Hinduism it's known by terms like avyaktam and yamala (Union of Shiva and Shakti.)

Basically, dialectical monism* is an approved worldview by both religions. The oldest Hindu metaphysical worldview (darshana) is known as Samkhya, in which the reality comes down to purusha vs. prakriti.

 

 

* Dialectical monism

Dialectical monism, also known as dualistic monism or monistic dualism, is an ontological position that holds that reality is ultimately a unified whole, distinguishing itself from monism by asserting that this whole necessarily expresses itself in dualistic terms. Wikipedia

[johndoe2012]

On 30.4.2024 at 1:54 AM, dwai said:

 

• Daoism: Stillness reflects a return to the natural state of the Dao. Like still water reflecting the world without distortion, a still mind reveals the true nature of things

 

Do you have a source for this?

[stirling]

Quote

Whereas in Daoism dualism is illustrated using the yin-yang symbol...

 

The Yin Yang represents much more than just duality. People tend to miss the outer surrounding circle (or "taijitu" in this diagram, illustrating that the duality of the yin-yang in the center is surrounded by the "supreme ultimate" or "absolute".

 

The Yin Yang diagrammatic representation is same as the Heart Sutra's "form is emptiness, emptiness form" and "two truths doctrine" representing the ever-changing nature of black/white duality inside the circle of the "absolute" as we'd also call it in Buddhism. 

Edited May 1 by stirling
Wanted to double check my Dao terms. :)

[old3bob]

 

aka the "transcendent" in many schools that is beyond yet also within as the source of duality...

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

Do you have a source for this?

 

good question;  I'd also say chapter 25 of the T.T.C. points that way.

 

that  particular part of the quotes wording  that you copied is problematic to me in that mind in itself does not reveal the Tao or transcendent but when clear and still the Tao works (comes to manifest) right through it without any veiling, thus in such a case mind is a matrix for and with zero resistance to such working. 

Edited May 1 by old3bob

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

The Yin Yang represents much more than just duality. People tend to miss the outer surrounding circle (or "taijitu" in this diagram, illustrating that the duality of the yin-yang in the center is surrounded by the "supreme ultimate" or "absolute".

 

The Yin Yang diagrammatic representation is same as the Heart Sutra's "form is emptiness, emptiness form" and "two truths doctrine" representing the ever-changing nature of black/white duality inside the circle of the "absolute" as we'd also call it in Buddhism. 

 

Quote

 

Philosophical Taoism regards the Tao as a non-religious concept; it is not a deity to be worshiped, nor is it a mystical Absolute in the religious sense of the Hindu brahman. Joseph Wu remarked of this conception of the Tao, "Dao is not religiously available; nor is it even religiously relevant." The writings of Laozi and Zhuangzi are tinged with esoteric tones and approach humanism and naturalism as paradoxes. In contrast to the esotericism typically found in religious systems, the Tao is not transcendent to the self, nor is mystical attainment an escape from the world in philosophical Taoism. The self steeped in the Tao is the self grounded in its place within the natural Universe. A person dwelling within the Tao excels in themselves and their activities.

 

…The Tao represents human harmony with the universe and even more phenomena in the world and nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

 

I understand this to mean Yin and Yang are fundamental principles of the Tao as the Tao expresses itself within the natural universe, which includes within oneself as we are part of the natural Universe. If there is a ‘beyond yin and yang’ and a ‘beyond heaven and earth’, if it isn’t expressed in the natural universe is it relevant to us here on earth, apart from as a philosophical notion? 

[old3bob]

We could listen to Chapter one of the T.T.C.  as good at pointing to a beyond or the Tao that can't be nailed down via the term "mystery" regardless to me of what sounds like a just a philosophical/ materialistic take which could also be heard as a partial take or pov.... 

 

[stirling]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

I understand this to mean Yin and Yang are fundamental principles of the Tao as the Tao expresses itself within the natural universe, which includes within oneself as we are part of the natural Universe.

 

I would say that the Yin and Yang are "inseparable" from the emptiness that they arise from. This is the meaning of "form is emptiness, emptiness form", that what arises in "form" (Yin/Yang) is itself made of the fabric of emptiness, and that the "emptiness" expresses itself in "form". They are inseparable, but the "emptiness" is always underneath our perception of form, unchanging and omnipresent.

 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

If there is a ‘beyond yin and yang’ and a ‘beyond heaven and earth’, if it isn’t expressed in the natural universe is it relevant to us here on earth, apart from as a philosophical notion? 

 

There isn't a beyond. There is no transcending. The Dao (Emptiness) is present in everything in every moment. It is not hidden, it is  completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for 

 

Quote

 

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.

It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.

It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

 

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

 

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.

The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself. - Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching – Verse 25

 

 

[old3bob]

 

"empty" is a piss poor word or term for many western way folks but it is often used by eastern way folks...to me it means no-thing and since mind can not wrap its head around no-thing why beat your brains out with clever speculations or definition's?

 

can't force it, let it be...btw no-thing is beyond forms or things and in that way or sense is transcendent although connected.  (also it is not visible to our regular five senses but it is visible to itself)

 

Edited May 2 by old3bob

[stirling]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

"empty" is a piss poor word or term for many western way folks but it is often used by eastern way folks...to me it means no-thing and since mind can not wrap its head around no-thing why beat your brains out with clever

speculations or definition's?

 

Certainly no-one has ever come to understand it by thinking... and yet here we all, are wasting valuable time talking about it.

Edited May 2 by stirling

[dwai]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Certainly no-one has ever come to understand it by thinking... and yet here we all, are wasting valuable time talking about it.

Know or know not, try we must 😇

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I would say that the Yin and Yang are "inseparable" from the emptiness that they arise from. This is the meaning of "form is emptiness, emptiness form", that what arises in "form" (Yin/Yang) is itself made of the fabric of emptiness, and that the "emptiness" expresses itself in "form". They are inseparable, but the "emptiness" is always underneath our perception of form, unchanging and omnipresent.

 

 

You say the “emptiness” is always underneath our perception of form, but below you state that it is completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for. As you are equating the Dao with emptiness, I would then ask in what way is the Dao visible? 

 

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

There isn't a beyond. There is no transcending. The Dao (Emptiness) is present in everything in every moment. It is not hidden, it is  completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

I'd say mind/memory makes a handle (like various teachings) for It in what could be called the aftermath of crossing over and coming back to the world of things,  but such is a still pointer as best as it can be...  and useful up to the threshold which mind/memory can not cross.  (for instance 2d is not 3d but can kind of point out 3d...)

 

Edited May 3 by old3bob

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, old3bob said:

...btw no-thing is beyond forms or things and in that way or sense is transcendent although connected.  (also it is not visible to our regular five senses but it is visible to itself)

 

Like in my quote from Gopi Krishna, after his kundalini experience settled down he was able to see a fundamental light everywhere including within himself, so it may well be possible to see this fundamental thing with a new evolutionary sense developed. 

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

Like in my quote from Gopi Krishna, after his kundalini experience settled down he was able to see a fundamental light everywhere including within himself, so it may well be possible to see this fundamental thing with a new evolutionary sense developed. 

 

agreed although not a "new" sense just way more developed from fairly normal intuition that most everyone has to "x" degree  to full on 3rd eye vision as described by many masters,  for example:

 

"The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"   Matthew 6:22-23

 

 

Edited May 3 by old3bob

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

he was able to see a fundamental light everywhere including within himself, so it may well be possible to see this fundamental thing with a new evolutionary sense developed.

The big question is, is this literally light or  figurative light? 
We can see “light” - in Sanskrit it is called bhāti (shining), in all phenomena right here and now. 
 

There are five aspects of all phenomena/things - 

 

* asti - is-ness

* bhāti - shining 

* priyam - usefulness (even a heap of dung is useful) 

* nāma - name 

* rūpa - form

 

Of these, the last two are categorized as jagadrūpam (sign of the materialistic world) and the first three are called brahmarūpam (sign of Brahaman).
 

What people miss is the brahmarūpam aspects (in which the shining/light belongs) and only recognize the jagadrūpam aspects.

 

What happens after realization is the brahmarūpam also becomes recognized, hence “seeing light in everything, including within. Can it manifest as perceptible light for some? Maybe. People with synesthesia see colors associated with sounds, patterns with music and so on. 
 

 

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

You say the “emptiness” is always underneath our perception of form, but below you state that it is completely visible to anyone who has been shown what to look for.

 

Yes. These are not incompatible statements. Whether you are aware of what you are looking at or not, the emptiness is always present. When you have some understanding about what it is and have developed your meditation practice sufficiently (a few months practice), you begin to be able to allow the mind to settle and become quiet and see it. 

 

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

As you are equating the Dao with emptiness, I would then ask in what way is the Dao visible? 

 

Lao Tzu actually gives some pointers in the quote I previously shared:

 

Quote

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.

It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.

It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things. 

- Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching – Verse 25

 

Daoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hinduism, all have examples like this which point directly at it. 

 

Ever come to a startling vista and have your mind go quiet, stunned by the beauty? Ever play music or ride a bicycle and be astounded by how it all seems to be happening by itself and is beautiful and miraculous? You will have temporarily seen it then. Maslow called it "Peak Experience".  

 

This more or less fits, however enlightened mind sees this permanently, and at a greater depth:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

 

For someone who has received, practiced with, and understood direct pointing some of these can be apprehended:

 

There is an uncanny stillness that is present even in a crowded stadium, or when looking at the busy innards of a working watch.

 

There is a "silence" that isn't about the quality of sound, exactly. 

 

Things have a visibly seamless wholeness no matter where attention rests, but what is seen is still comprised of the same familiar objects you always seen.

 

There is a sharp clarity and vividness to it all that "illuminates" it, but not in a conventional sense of the word.

 

These qualities, to some degree, could be appreciated by almost any student that puts the work in.

 

Going further, on deeper meditative reflection and eventual realization the mind becomes almost entirely still, with the occasional single thoughts arising and passing without disturbing the stillness. Time, space, and self are seen as delusions. This is the permanent way of seeing.

[stirling]

13 minutes ago, dwai said:

The big question is, is this literally light or  figurative light? 
We can see “light” - in Sanskrit it is called bhāti (shining), in all phenomena right here and now. 
 

There are five aspects of all phenomena/things - 

 

* asti - is-ness

* bhāti - shining 

* priyam - usefulness (even a heap of dung is useful) 

* nāma - name 

* rūpa - form

 

Of these, the last two are categorized as jagadrūpam (sign of the materialistic world) and the first three are called brahmarūpam (sign of Brahaman).
 

What people miss is the brahmarūpam aspects (in which the shining/light belongs) and only recognize the jagadrūpam aspects.

 

What happens after realization is the brahmarūpam also becomes recognized, hence “seeing light in everything, including within. Can it manifest as perceptible light for some? Maybe. People with synesthesia see colors associated with sounds, patterns with music and so on.

 

In my experience it is "luminosity", the visible quality of emptiness which is visible everywhere and in every "thing" once seen and understood. 

[old3bob]

 

souls (bodies) are woven of light/energy,  was shone that but don't remember too much now...

strange to me that some folks deny soul?

Edited May 3 by old3bob

[stirling]

34 minutes ago, old3bob said:

souls (bodies) are woven of light/energy,  was shone that but don't remember too much now...

strange to me that some folks deny soul?

 

Got bored and decided it might be interesting to kick the hornet's nest, eh?

[old3bob]

 

apparently not as bored as some experts 

 

[Bindi]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

The big question is, is this literally light or  figurative light? 
We can see “light” - in Sanskrit it is called bhāti (shining), in all phenomena right here and now. 
 

 

I have come across the word jyoti that refers to what I’m thinking of:

 

Jyoti

ज्योति, jyoti

"light", "radiance", "flame", "brilliance", "brightness"; "luminary", "celestial body"

This is the light that fills the universe; the light of our consciousness. Also, jyoti is a burning light in lamps (dipas) in Indian temples.

In Hindu texts, the prefixing "jyoti" indicates the divine origin of the described objects, phenomena, deities, in other words, appeared from the divine light — the original source of creation.

 

The question remains though, is it literal or figurative, I tend to think literal, as I have come to believe that all ‘spirituality’ is based on physical states, even if that physicality is made of subtle energy. 

 

12 hours ago, dwai said:

There are five aspects of all phenomena/things - 

 

* asti - is-ness

* bhāti - shining 

* priyam - usefulness (even a heap of dung is useful) 

* nāma - name 

* rūpa - form

 

Of these, the last two are categorized as jagadrūpam (sign of the materialistic world) and the first three are called brahmarūpam (sign of Brahaman).
 

What people miss is the brahmarūpam aspects (in which the shining/light belongs) and only recognize the jagadrūpam aspects.

 

What happens after realization is the brahmarūpam also becomes recognized, hence “seeing light in everything, including within. Can it manifest as perceptible light for some? Maybe. People with synesthesia see colors associated with sounds, patterns with music and so on. 
 

 

 

[Bindi]

12 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Yes. These are not incompatible statements. Whether you are aware of what you are looking at or not, the emptiness is always present. When you have some understanding about what it is and have developed your meditation practice sufficiently (a few months practice), you begin to be able to allow the mind to settle and become quiet and see it. 

 

 

Lao Tzu actually gives some pointers in the quote I previously shared:

 

 

Daoism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hinduism, all have examples like this which point directly at it. 

 

Ever come to a startling vista and have your mind go quiet, stunned by the beauty? Ever play music or ride a bicycle and be astounded by how it all seems to be happening by itself and is beautiful and miraculous? You will have temporarily seen it then. Maslow called it "Peak Experience".  

 

This more or less fits, however enlightened mind sees this permanently, and at a greater depth:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_experience

 

For someone who has received, practiced with, and understood direct pointing some of these can be apprehended:

 

There is an uncanny stillness that is present even in a crowded stadium, or when looking at the busy innards of a working watch.

 

There is a "silence" that isn't about the quality of sound, exactly. 

 

Things have a visibly seamless wholeness no matter where attention rests, but what is seen is still comprised of the same familiar objects you always seen.

 

There is a sharp clarity and vividness to it all that "illuminates" it, but not in a conventional sense of the word.

 

These qualities, to some degree, could be appreciated by almost any student that puts the work in.

 

Going further, on deeper meditative reflection and eventual realization the mind becomes almost entirely still, with the occasional single thoughts arising and passing without disturbing the stillness. Time, space, and self are seen as delusions. This is the permanent way of seeing.

I do understand that a state of mental stillness is pleasant, I experienced such a state for a few days, thoughts appeared but flowed away quickly and naturally and seamlessly, but when this state came to an end I saw a single thought that got trapped and lay on a floor that had been apparently reinstated, I watched as a few more thoughts piled on top and very soon I was back to my normal mind, it was as though a momentary opening in the bottom of a channel that collected thoughts had closed over. But this isn’t the fundamental light that I’m referring to. 

[old3bob]

 

Oh hell, and God bless...

Edited May 4 by old3bob