Where are all the martial artists at?

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

As soon as I learned what I was being shown, I thought the same thing; unfortunately, I seemed to be the only one at the local karate club to think so. Everyone else (mostly late teens to early 20s) wanted to focus on purely sports karate and saw no use for what they called "old kobudo" (very rough translation here). 

 

I posted a vid somewhere here on this ; the idea was 'kobudo'  was the 'art form' ... the 'do'   (after 'restoration' and disbanding of feudal / Samurai system  ) and 'Budo' was the form before , realting to actual battle and life and death duelling / attacks , defense  - which would be your 'old kobudo ' .

 

That said, I felt everything I was shown was very practical for use in live battlefield combat (of an era before ours, anyway); it included work in combat while running, switching between various weapons, throwing weapons, and half-swording: stuff I rarely see in traditional martial arts.

 

Sounds great .  I introduced stuff like that into our training ... only later to see it was  practiced in some 'Budo' schools ; stop sword draw , countering that, 'impolite attacks'   etc .  Especially terrain, we always trained outside .  There, a lot of what I had picked up showed its practicality . Especially the 'stepping' techniques   when on rough and uneven ground .  ( One  example of why I left my 'instructor' ; during a sword duel ,  I would maneuver him around so sun would be in his eyes , he would stop me and say 'Let's move over into the shade , the sun is in my eyes ."  I would say , " No. " .   He would walk away  ( without ending or 'bowing out' ! )  , so I would slash him down his back  (softly, of course ) .  

 

At home in my 'circle of death'  (  a round flat area I graded and seeded with grass for training in ) , I managed to drive a training mate 3 times over 2 weeks into a big nasty Scotch thistle  that pricked him, made him loose concentration and ... slash ! ...  before he realized  I deliberately let it be there  : ' Why dont you dig that damn thing out  .....   Oooooooooh !   ."  He finally got it !   Or " Let's pick the garden hose up first , its in the way ."  Me ; "No, leave it there . "

 

Mr N. had an old carpet in the room he trained with people on. A student kept complaining it was slipping, I will get you a  new carpet . No ... 'Old carpet is good '  .   After a week of training there and doing 'corrected ' kata , Mr N informed him ..... " You see ... you do kata now and carpet not moving ! "

 

 

Much of the barehanded techniques that were focused on were designed to be used without having to condition the hands/feet and could be transitioned directly into weapons techniques;

 

Good .... my hands look like they never done , even work .  Its all about knowing what to hit, when to hit it, how to hit it and the appropriate thing to hit it with .

 

the barehanded blocks were explained in terms of sword strikes, for instance. There was also a lot of training for appearance, to make one look "royal," which included work on posture, walking/running methods, etc. 

 

Thats the latest  thing I have been pushing for the last year or so  (and led to a falling out with my 'instructor'  .   kata and form are for display , even bunkai  ....  things won't work like that in a more real situation , so we have been going there . Instructor could NOT  deal with that  as he taught a huge range of technique , MANY impractical if not downright dangerous  (especially his 'knife disarms'  ) .  I started underground classes without him after I left .  My position is ; there is no shame in defeat in training , if you learn from it .  We examine what works and what is impractical .    Its better than never having a go, out of fear you might be proved wrong  

 

 

In terms of the energetics, the forms I was taught felt more like kung fu than karate and had a qigong aspect to them. They were long and fancy compared to what I'm used to, including spinning moves, but seemed to be stylized like a dance. I was told that there were over 30 forms included in the style, but I only learned 3 (4 if we break the weapons form I learned down into a naginata form and a katana form). 

 

Same here ; a lot does come from Chinese arts  , as you may know 'Chinese Hand' as it was called .  My style came out of a form of white crane  , also the main form 'Kusanku' and 'Chinto' both supposedly came from Chinese 'envoy' and 'pirate' .  The last form taught is 'Hakatsuru'  - Okinawan Crane .

 

Regarding the dance ;  I do a little demo of  2 or 3 sections of traditional Okinawan dance and show how it is the basis of some basic techniques ; one sequence of dance moves can be applied against a bo staff  when attacked with a  45 degree swing , the attacker ends up with one end of the bo shoved up into the groin and the other used as an arm lock pressing on the radial  nerve   and bent over with the head lowered for a  big toe flick kick ..... you see the sweet looking old ladies doing this dance in line     

 

You got to train naginata !   Lucky you !  I do  bo, jo, bokan, sai, karma, ecu ,  a bit of surujin , tanto, double machete, I always wanted to try Tenbe and Rochin but never got the chance . 

 

Also, to preempt, I've seen some demonstrations of the style on YouTube that look very little like what I learned; I don't know enough to comment on them, but I haven't seen any videos online that look anything like what I was taught, despite searching intensely.  

 

Same here , The closest I saw  (and they had the same style name ) , frankly, was embarrassing .   It now seems a lost art .

 

Edited June 3 by Nungali

[Paradoxal]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I posted a vid somewhere here on this ; the idea was 'kobudo'  was the 'art form' ... the 'do'   (after 'restoration' and disbanding of feudal / Samurai system  ) and 'Budo' was the form before , realting to actual battle and life and death duelling / attacks , defense  - which would be your 'old kobudo ' .

There's a lot in modern Japanese where the 'do' and 'jutsu' implies completely different things. When describing what I practiced, I always used 'bujutsu' rather than 'budo' because I feel that you only get shallow spiritual accomplishments if you only shallowly study the martial, which I find arts that use 'do' tend to fall into; they become sport rather than life or death, which is good in some ways but loses a lot of meaning elsewhere. 

 

20 minutes ago, Nungali said:

There, a lot of what I had picked up showed its practicality . Especially the 'stepping' techniques   when on rough and uneven ground .  ( One  example of why I left my 'instructor' ; during a sword duel ,  I would maneuver him around so sun would be in his eyes , he would stop me and say 'Let's move over into the shade , the sun is in my eyes ."  I would say , " No. " .   He would walk away  ( without ending or 'bowing out' ! )  , so I would slash him down his back  (softly, of course ) .

I find that sort of thing within a fighting arts instructor to be a huge red flag. My Sifu incentivizes us to land attacks on him or dodge his attacks (we can get out of conditioning if any one of us manages to block a punch), which both serves to keep him sharp and motivate us; I've only ever seen one student block a punch (and only that once) during these, though. He always tells us that to teach, you need to be far better at what you're teaching than your students. We can always seem to mop other schools up whenever we compete, but even 3v1 I've never seen Sifu take a loss. To me, that's what a martial arts instructor needs to be like (in addition to the spiritual wisdom, of course).

 

24 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Good .... my hands look like they never done , even work .  Its all about knowing what to hit, when to hit it, how to hit it and the appropriate thing to hit it with .

 

I admit that I practice iron palm, fist, shin, and shirt, so I do place a fair amount of importance on conditioning, just because it lets me have the option to end things faster. That said, the bruises and swelling that you see on some people are the result of mistakes in conditioning rather than proper conditioning according to what I've been taught. The idea is to slowly condition yourself upwards so you don't end up causing permanent damage. Nonetheless, even without much conditioning, I'd agree that if ya know where to hit, the body's a fatal targetboard. 

 

 

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

My position is ; there is no shame in defeat in training , if you learn from it .  We examine what works and what is impractical

This is the essence of martial practice in my opinion as well!

 

28 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Same here ; a lot does come from Chinese arts  , as you may know 'Chinese Hand' as it was called .  My style came out of a form of white crane  , also the main form 'Kusanku' and 'Chinto' both supposedly came from Chinese 'envoy' and 'pirate' .  The last form taught is 'Hakatsuru'  - Okinawan Crane .

 

Regarding the dance ;  I do a little demo of  2 or 3 sections of traditional Okinawan dance and show how it is the basis of some basic techniques ; one sequence of dance moves can be applied against a bo staff  when attacked with a  45 degree swing , the attacker ends up with one end of the bo shoved up into the groin and the other used as an arm lock pressing on the radial  nerve   and bent over with the head lowered for a  big toe flick kick ..... you see the sweet looking old ladies doing this dance in line     

 

You got to train naginata !   Lucky you !  I do  bo, jo, bokan, sai, karma, ecu ,  a bit of surujin , tanto, double machete, I always wanted to try Tenbe and Rochin but never got the chance . 

Chinese hand, Tou di, or 唐手 as it's spelled in Japanese, was indeed the name of karate before it was introduced to Japan. They switched to the character for "empty," which coincidentally could have the same sound as 唐 in Japanese (kara), as a way to distance the art from China when trying to sell it to the Japanese mainaldn. I wrote an essay in Japanese on that transition while studying abroad, though I can't comment on how good my Japanese actually is in it (https://themartialdao.com/?p=97). 

 

As for the dance, my sensei was kind enough to bring me to a traditional dance performance and tested to see if I could find the martial influences; indeed, all of the traditional dances made use of martial arts footwork and hand movements so as to obscure their true meaning from the public eye. Some of the more flashy stuff that folks do now such as Eisa actually takes entire chunks of karate katas and inserts em into the dances, which is a bit of a departure from how they were initially done but still very cool.

 

The naginata form I was taught also functioned as a bo, jo, sai, tenbe, katana, dao, and nunchaku form with slight alterations from what I was told, but I was only directly shown the naginata, bo, and katana variants. Really efficient system from what I saw.

 

As for the public info and the art dying out... I think that there might be some internal debate as to how public the art should be. My sensei refused to be filmed doing the kata for memory's sake and while he didn't outright ban me from showing others, he *did* discourage it (which I took to be a ban). As it was initially an art only for the royalty and was privately passed down as late as World War II, there's probably some reservations about showing it to the world; thus, they severely limit what's shown in the demos and online. I was never told this mind you, just my own speculation based on what I saw while there... 

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

There's a lot in modern Japanese where the 'do' and 'jutsu' implies completely different things. When describing what I practiced, I always used 'bujutsu' rather than 'budo' because I feel that you only get shallow spiritual accomplishments if you only shallowly study the martial, which I find arts that use 'do' tend to fall into; they become sport rather than life or death, which is good in some ways but loses a lot of meaning elsewhere. 

 

I find that sort of thing within a fighting arts instructor to be a huge red flag. My Sifu incentivizes us to land attacks on him or dodge his attacks (we can get out of conditioning if any one of us manages to block a punch), which both serves to keep him sharp and motivate us; I've only ever seen one student block a punch (and only that once) during these, though. He always tells us that to teach, you need to be far better at what you're teaching than your students. We can always seem to mop other schools up whenever we compete, but even 3v1 I've never seen Sifu take a loss. To me, that's what a martial arts instructor needs to be like (in addition to the spiritual wisdom, of course).

 

I agree  .   here is another (of the many ) red flags from 'instructor' .... its his story about how good at fighting they where ; Its about how him and 2 other guys from the club (when younger ) went to a tournament  and beat everyone in it . 'We just punched them in the head , they didnt know what to do about it .'    I had a hunch so I asked ; " Was it a full contact tournament ?  "  - no, "Where head punches allowed ?"  No , they got disqualified each time one of them did it . .   W

How can one respond to that without .... W   T    F    ?!       .

 

I admit that I practice iron palm, fist, shin, and shirt, so I do place a fair amount of importance on conditioning, just because it lets me have the option to end things faster. That said, the bruises and swelling that you see on some people are the result of mistakes in conditioning rather than proper conditioning according to what I've been taught. The idea is to slowly condition yourself upwards so you don't end up causing permanent damage. Nonetheless, even without much conditioning, I'd agree that if ya know where to hit, the body's a fatal targetboard. 

 

Well, some of that should apply .  I used to muck around with my boss at work  ( ex - Shotokan - as I was -  , apparently they used to be big in Iran, where he learnt  )  we would throw techniques at each other , joking around .  One time we where learning our backs  against a sandstone wall  watching something and I threw a back fist at his head but snacked the wall next to it  with a loud splatting sound .  he asked  " Didnt that hurt ?"    'No'  . So he tried it before I could stop him ..... which resulted in a string of cursing and hand rubbing and abuse aimed at ME  ... of all people       I explained I have a habit of doing that , been doing it for years    ie, backfisting things as i walk along , walls , telegraph poles etc  .    I even cracked a brick in he wall around my stove with big toe kicks  ... but that took about 3 years of casual kicking it        

 

 

 

This is the essence of martial practice in my opinion as well!

 

Chinese hand, Tou di, or 唐手 as it's spelled in Japanese, was indeed the name of karate before it was introduced to Japan. They switched to the character for "empty," which coincidentally could have the same sound as 唐 in Japanese (kara), as a way to distance the art from China when trying to sell it to the Japanese mainaldn. I wrote an essay in Japanese on that transition while studying abroad, though I can't comment on how good my Japanese actually is in it (https://themartialdao.com/?p=97). 

 

Thanks, I will read that later

 

Quote

As for the dance, my sensei was kind enough to bring me to a traditional dance performance and tested to see if I could find the martial influences; indeed, all of the traditional dances made use of martial arts footwork and hand movements so as to obscure their true meaning from the public eye. Some of the more flashy stuff that folks do now such as Eisa actually takes entire chunks of karate katas and inserts em into the dances, which is a bit of a departure from how they were initially done but still very cool.

 

The naginata form I was taught also functioned as a bo, jo, sai, tenbe, katana, dao, and nunchaku form with slight alterations from what I was told, but I was only directly shown the naginata, bo, and katana variants. Really efficient system from what I saw.

 

Interesting . I do that with a technique sometimes ;  select one from a form or kata and then practice the same technique or its adaptation with various weapons .

 

As for the public info and the art dying out... I think that there might be some internal debate as to how public the art should be. My sensei refused to be filmed doing the kata for memory's sake and while he didn't outright ban me from showing others, he *did* discourage it (which I took to be a ban). As it was initially an art only for the royalty and was privately passed down as late as World War II, there's probably some reservations about showing it to the world; thus, they severely limit what's shown in the demos and online.

 

Thats valid when there is a possibility of continuance ... but if there is none ? A decision needs to be made . We deal with this a fair bit in Oz with the indigenous .  Fairly recently vast amounts of info have been made available that was secret previously , held in confidence and only taught to  those allowed and worthy . To tell others is against 'Law' and punishable .  Knowing this full well, two of the last elders of the Gwion Gwion tradition have revealed their knowledge as they are the last two left , no one else interested , when they die, it will die with them. They considered it too important to be lost , more so than any 'punishment' they might get .  However the info is mind blowing and represents one of the only of two examples we have even found in world history  .  (Also we have facilities for such ; national library , indigenous section - limited access depending on who you are ,  citizen or visitor , indigenous, man, woman, initiated  or not and to what level all considerations for access level )

 

I was never told this mind you, just my own speculation based on what I saw while there... 

 

And THAT is very important . IMO a lot of the 'secret teaching' is just this . They present it to you in a part or masked form or even a hint to 'see if you can get it '   ; 'Is this guy smart enough to put two and two together ?"   Conversely I have seen much bad teaching done from what I understand was misunderstandings  or not understandings . This is where studying the culture comes into it . For example, one will find it very hard to negotiate through all of this with a traditional minded (or even 'modern' - partially ) Japanese instructor  if one does not understand the concept of  Tatame and  Honne  .

 

On that note I should move toward starting that thread on  .....  ' Karate History "    .... I suppose     although that title sounds a little boring        (  I am waiting for a rainy day  as I dont like working outside in rain ... for now its sunny and there is a lot to do out there . )  - however if you want to start it - go for it.

 

 

Edited June 3 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

Your article is in Japanese .   I didnt realise that .

[Paradoxal]

12 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Your article is in Japanese .   I didnt realise that .

Ahaha yeah... I wrote it as part of a class on academic Japanese writing, but since the library there just had so many really cool books on karate and the local martial arts/history, I couldn't help including it as a topic. Google translate is apparently decently accurate for the meanings, though I won't give it 100%.

 

21 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Quote

On that note I should move toward starting that thread on  .....  ' Karate History "    .... I suppose     although that title sounds a little boring        (  I am waiting for a rainy day  as I dont like working outside in rain ... for now its sunny and there is a lot to do out there . )  - however if you want to start it - go for it.

 

Could just be "Martial Arts History" instead to be inclusive?

 

On the rainy day, I totally get that; I'm so active right now because I managed to sever the nerve for my right thumb and can't really practice or write anything substantial, so this is a fun way to pass the time while I wait for the cast to come off.

 

24 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I explained I have a habit of doing that , been doing it for years    ie, backfisting things as i walk along , walls , telegraph poles etc  .    I even cracked a brick in he wall around my stove with big toe kicks  ... but that took about 3 years of casual kicking it 

I too, have this habit; it caused my professors no end of chagrin, as the noise was apparently very distracting and I often did it unconsciously. 

 

25 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Thats valid when there is a possibility of continuance ... but if there is none ? A decision needs to be made

100% agreed; that's why I threw everything I could into learning it while I was there. Wing Chun and Goju Ryu won't be forgotten at this point, but Motobu Udundi might. In my eyes, it's a massive cultural treasure trove that people just seem to have forgotten about!

 

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I agree  .   here is another (of the many ) red flags from 'instructor' .... its his story about how good at fighting they where ; Its about how him and 2 other guys from the club (when younger ) went to a tournament  and beat everyone in it . 'We just punched them in the head , they didnt know what to do about it .'    I had a hunch so I asked ; " Was it a full contact tournament ?  "  - no, "Where head punches allowed ?"  No , they got disqualified each time one of them did it

My Sifu has a similar story, except it's from when he got disqualified from a 'full contact' tournament for going full contact after confirming with the organizers that they wanted to see people knocked out. He knocked out the 'top ranked' person in their local ranking system (who was basically seeded to win) in one clean punch to the chest and got D/Q'd for it. I actually got to confirm the story a few years back when we ran into the organizer from the tournament after the annual hall of fame banquet and, in the organizer's words, "We thought we were ready and knew full contact, but we didn't. We shouldn't have DQ'd you." He remembered it over 20 years after it happened. 

 

31 minutes ago, Nungali said:

And THAT is very important . IMO a lot of the 'secret teaching' is just this . They present it to you in a part or masked form or even a hint to 'see if you can get it '   ; 'Is this guy smart enough to put two and two together ?"  

Some is, some isn't. I've had some stuff explained to me behind closed doors, which I would classify as 'secret teachings,' but usually it's stuff that's included in the curriculum; you just don't end up seeing its value until it's pointed out. 

[DBT]

I joined a Lau gar kung fu school around 1980. I worked through the grades until I got to purple sash. I was in the county free fighting team and nunchaku team. I stopped taking grades and focussed on Daoism, I was lucky, my Kung fu instructor was a Daoist teacher and took me on as his student. I still practice kung fu and Daoism.

[Nungali]

How does a 'nunchaku team'  work  ?

[DBT]

Two opponents fight with nunchaku (Chinese flails), the nunchaku are made from leather. You get points for striking certain parts of the body, you fight three 3 minute rounds. The county team consists of 4 members + 2 subs.

[Nungali]

On 23/08/2024 at 9:15 AM, DBT said:

Two opponents fight with nunchaku (Chinese flails), the nunchaku are made from leather. You get points for striking certain parts of the body, you fight three 3 minute rounds. The county team consists of 4 members + 2 subs.

 

   I thought you meant kata.  During my very early weapons training  ( 30 years ago ) we had a couple of nunchuk katas , one 'double nunchuku' kata .  I thought a team would be like a kata completion team .

 

Nunchuks Vs nunchuks  ?     Did those guys teach the real art of handling them or was it just  a la Bruce Lee type movie  twirling and smashing each other with them .

 

There are not a  very weapon suitable  to be used against each other .  

 

What is  it like being hit with a leather one ?  Did  you use armour ? Over the years I have experimented with various ways of adapting weapons for ore realistic practice / sparing .  Plastic is crap and isnt heavy enough ,  foaming things up makes them too thick and slow . Bamboo is dangerous as it shatters and splinters .  I came up with (for staff and stick like weapons *  ) ;  plastic  electrical conduit coated with hot water pipe insulation foam, but that can bend too much so then I put a thin rod of bamboo through the tube as well. Works pretty .good and is the right thickness .

 

* Its virtually  essential if you want to learn the real dynamics of something like a  two section staff .  Otherwise you are going to go through a LOT of training  partners !

 

I have used rubber , as a point for my long spear . Dudes kept saying " Ya missed me ! " and I would ' What you want me to slash you with it ? "  So I cut a spear head shape out of an old thick truck tire . Then when I would do a long extended move for example I could slap the 'flap' across the front of their foot tendons or something similar ... " Did you feel that, then ? "   The rest of my goodies , I use wood . Some blunt metal ,  sai for example , but one must be very careful  ( I  pronged a guys cheek once with a side prong on a sai   ... ooops. ) 

Edited August 24 by Nungali

[DBT]

When I started my nunchaku training, I was shown all the basic moves, it was more about control rather than striking an opponent. When my instructor thought I had mastered the basic moves he started some one to one tuition, he turned a vaulting horse on its side and placed a medicine ball on top. He handed me a standard set of Chinese oak nunchaku and said “imagine the medicine ball is the head and the vaulting horse is the body. Strike the opponent, but bear in mind opponents strike back”. I was confused by his comment, I struck hard at the head. The nunchaku bounced back and struck me in the forearm (lesson 1). The leather nunchaku did sting when you got hit, we wore protective helmets and a box.

Edited August 24 by DBT

[Sanity Check]

 

 

Good motivation to train harder.  

 

🐣

Edited August 24 by Sanity Check

[Nungali]

On 8/24/2024 at 6:25 PM, DBT said:

When I started my nunchaku training, I was shown all the basic moves, it was more about control rather than striking an opponent.

 

Do you mean 'about control' as in locks, wrap ups ,  chokes , traps,  etc . with the weapon  ( thats what I was thinking of as well as strikes )

or

controlling the swings and strikes ?

 

When my instructor thought I had mastered the basic moves he started some one to one tuition, he turned a vaulting horse on its side and placed a medicine ball on top. He handed me a standard set of Chinese oak nunchaku and said “imagine the medicine ball is the head and the vaulting horse is the body. Strike the opponent, but bear in mind opponents strike back”. I was confused by his comment, I struck hard at the head. The nunchaku bounced back and struck me in the forearm (lesson 1).

 

Did you keep your arm extended ?  That will do it . You need to whip past the target  and keep your arm moving ; as in  a ... ( damn, forgot the term )  a stick strike in arnis where, although you are hitting with a stick, you ;'sweep through and past '  as if you where cutting with a sword .

 

Could have been worse :

I remember in early class, the distinctive sound coming from the back  junior ranks ; that  occasional distinctive 'clunk'  sound of Japanese hardwood against bone  (one' skull or elbow ) .

 

The leather nunchaku did sting when you got hit, we wore protective helmets and a box.

 

Sounds fun   

 

[DBT]

The control we learned, was about maintaining control of the nunchaku as you created a moving shield around your body. Making minor corrections to keep a flowing movement. One day I was showing off and throwing the spinning nunchaku up in the air and catching them. Master Yau walked past, reached out, caught the nunchaku, spun them around his body a few times and threw them back. We did learn locks and holds but I never found them useful.

Regarding the bounce back that injured my arm, you are correct about the follow through, maintaining a pull on the nunchaku. But also we learned to strike in a spiral, instead of striking square on, then any bounce back would miss your forearm.

Edited August 26 by DBT

[Nungali]

I eventually found one after much searching , youtube be full of twirly , smashing , stuff - but this is the sort of things I meant  (of course, it has advantage over knife ; good against some weapons and not so good against others

 

Its a bit like arnis ... spectacular and tricky skills and drills that give all sorts of advantages ... but in comp the 'devolve' to just trying to smash the shit outa each other and lot of stuff gets thrown out the window . But I guess thats the nature of 'fighting'  .

 

IMO (and some others )  ; what is better than winning ? 

 

being able to pull off some 'classic technique' in the midst of chaotic 'fighting'   .....   and winning     

[Paradoxal]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:18 AM, Nungali said:

 

IMO (and some others )  ; what is better than winning ? 

 

being able to pull off some 'classic technique' in the midst of chaotic 'fighting'   .....   and winning     

My Sifu always forced us to master one 'classic technique' before moving onto the next. Some people thought that 'mastering' it meant simply looking pretty while doing it on a cooperative opponent, but what he wanted (and would not move you on until you managed) was for you to be able to use that specific sequence of movements in a live fight against an unwilling opponent at your will. 

 

Coming from that kind of environment, it baffles me to see how certain schools train nowadays, but I suppose they get out of it what they put in. 

 

 

In other news, since my last post, I made it back to Okinawa for a week! I got to learn the basics of a sai form from Motobu Udundi, as well as talked with my sensei for a bit longer. Apparently, I was one of three people in the entirety of Okinawa who learned that aforementioned naginata/bo form! The other two were my sensei and his elder. It was really worrying to hear that, though, as it means the art is that close to dying. 

I also got to attend a seminar with Hokama Tetsuhiro-sensei of Goju ryu, which was quite fun!

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

My Sifu always forced us to master one 'classic technique' before moving onto the next. Some people thought that 'mastering' it meant simply looking pretty while doing it on a cooperative opponent, but what he wanted (and would not move you on until you managed) was for you to be able to use that specific sequence of movements in a live fight against an unwilling opponent at your will. 

 

If you really want to show off , demonstrate the technique to everyone (by yourself, no 'dummy' partner)  before a round, and then win the round  using it , then next round another technique    

 

Coming from that kind of environment, it baffles me to see how certain schools train nowadays, but I suppose they get out of it what they put in. 

 

I got incredibly baffled by the whole modern karate thing .... what a strange beast !  And  what strange people  !  As Hohan Soken was quoted as saying  " We taught a few Americans, we had no idea they would go back home and do what they did ."  Of course, by then it was already a pretty strange thing ;  a deadly combination of native wrestling grappling and striking combined with 'Chinese boxing '  turned into a  , safe for primary school kids,  physical education program !

 

 

In other news, since my last post, I made it back to Okinawa for a week! I got to learn the basics of a sai form from Motobu Udundi, as well as talked with my sensei for a bit longer. Apparently, I was one of three people in the entirety of Okinawa who learned that aforementioned naginata/bo form! The other two were my sensei and his elder. It was really worrying to hear that, though, as it means the art is that close to dying. 

 

Still, well done though !   I know 3 sai forms from Hohan Soken  ( and 'from'  could mean a variety of things     )   and if anyone else still knows them I doubt they know or understand the application of the moves in them . I am probably one of few (if not the only one ) that still knows  our top form (Hakatsuru - Okinawan crane ) ; a visiting interstate instructor came here to learn it and our 'instructor'  messed it up twice when being filmed   and gave up !   And I had to step in and do for the filming .  I only know one other person that is competent in this stuff, my old training partner from that club .  Thing is there is a smattering of people that learned of our teacher   (   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosei_Nishihira  )   still around in Oz , but they have either given up, got busy elsewhere or .... even though they do (or should ) know this stuff, they run pretty standard style modern karate schools !  ( Try to make money out of it ... that was the original problem ! and they still do it . )

 

Definitely a dying art ... nearly dead      

 

 

I also got to attend a seminar with Hokama Tetsuhiro-sensei of Goju ryu, which was quite fun!

 

[Nungali]

I looked him up .   He is doing ( here in the vid below) a demo I like to do ... I am pretty sure although I cant understand him, it appears to show traditional Okinawan dance moves as  martial arts technique .   My selected dance moves and steps are different to his though, but similar, mine are based on 'shuto' ( the old way, not the modern 'karate chop' interpretation ) , wrist and body mass manipulation and  'throw away' / take down . 

 

One obscure old kata is baced on a common traditional dance there , it is actually about disarming someone attempting a bo attack on you  - they end up with one end of the bow being used as an elbow lock on an arm bar and the other end shoved up into  the private parts and they are bent over for a low level kick ( big toe into eye ball ) ... or if they turn face away its into their  .....   (behind ear - G11 ) .... you see 'nice little old ladies' doing that dance    

 

 

Its nearly exactly the same except he is starting from the inside , I start  against the initial punch or grab attempt with a shuto from the outside .

 

( The thing is , it only works on the inside as the attacker has retracted his left fist to his hip     - a good fighter -as opposed to a 'demo dummy' -  'hand up ! ' ... he would have a left guard up to stop that initial strike ... followed by a quick left jab .... they cant do that to you if you are on their out side .

 - more 'strange modern karate '  .

 

.

 

 

Edited August 28 by Nungali

[Paradoxal]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

( The thing is , it only works on the inside as the attacker has retracted his left fist to his hip     - a good fighter -as opposed to a 'demo dummy' -  'hand up ! ' ... he would have a left guard up to stop that initial strike ... followed by a quick left jab .... they cant do that to you if you are on their out side .

Again, my disclaimer on YouTube videos on Udundi!

 

That said, yeah, almost all of Okinawa's traditional dances with any history behind them have martial uses. It was explained to me that this comes directly from one of the kings, who wished his people were able to defend themselves despite Satsuma domination. As a solution, he used his knowledge of martial arts (Motobu Udundi is the style of the royal family) to create 'dances' used both in daily life and to honor ancestors, which could then be quickly re-made into war arts if needed. Eisa, another traditional dance, also teaches sword, shield, and spear fighting specialized for uneven terrain if you know where to look. Really cool stuff in my opinion! 

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

If you really want to show off , demonstrate the technique to everyone (by yourself, no 'dummy' partner)  before a round, and then win the round  using it , then next round another technique    

One of my seniors actually did something similar to this in the cage. We have very basic drills that everyone starts with in our dojo (pak sao, step to the blind side, rolling punch, as an example), that are really used to get people used to the ideals we strive for rather than as a static response to combat, which is NOT static. He went through everyone in the class, having full contact bouts (1 and a half minute rounds, 3 rounds. If an opponent can't fight anymore, they lose) without a break in between, beating us all with these simple drills. Usually it ended in TKOs. Had former wrestlers, an active bouncer, and a few others mixed in too! Really impressive stuff in my opinion. He got me with a single shot to the solar plexus, after which I couldn't get any power cause it shut off my breathing. Can't praise him enough for that!

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

Of course, by then it was already a pretty strange thing ;  a deadly combination of native wrestling grappling and striking combined with 'Chinese boxing '  turned into a  , safe for primary school kids,  physical education program !

It was an Okinawan, Gichin Funakoshi who did that. He purposely removed all the dangerous or complex movements from the original forms for that purpose (he stated this himself in his memoir, "My Karate-Do"), which did definitely neuter the art for a lot of people.

As a martial artist, I definitely don't agree with it.

However, and very importantly, this action singlehandedly brought karate from being a small, local art, to being something practiced worldwide. For all of our lamenting dying arts, he did a damn good job at saving his! Plus, even without the maiming moves, it does retain some spiritual value to practice, and the sportified version even works to sharpen some martial skills, if used in conjunction with traditional training. It definitely cut the path that normal karateka can travel short, but it got that many more people to get at least some benefit from it, and they can always dig deeper to uncover more. 

 

All in all, very double edged sword.

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

Still, well done though !   I know 3 sai forms from Hohan Soken  ( and 'from'  could mean a variety of things     )   and if anyone else still knows them I doubt they know or understand the application of the moves in them . I am probably one of few (if not the only one ) that still knows  our top form (Hakatsuru - Okinawan crane ) ; a visiting interstate instructor came here to learn it and our 'instructor'  messed it up twice when being filmed   and gave up !   And I had to step in and do for the filming .  I only know one other person that is competent in this stuff, my old training partner from that club .

My two cents: Take videos of you doing all the forms while you still can! Multiple angles, multiple takes, and record the names at least! That can save at least the skeleton of the system, which if passed into the right hands, can be rebuilt. We're lucky we have this sort of technology now, so we gotta use it before this stuff is completely lost! Ya don't have to release em publicly, but at least have it so that records remain somewhere!

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Paradoxal said:

Again, my disclaimer on YouTube videos on Udundi!

 

That said, yeah, almost all of Okinawa's traditional dances with any history behind them have martial uses. It was explained to me that this comes directly from one of the kings, who wished his people were able to defend themselves despite Satsuma domination. As a solution, he used his knowledge of martial arts (Motobu Udundi is the style of the royal family) to create 'dances' used both in daily life and to honor ancestors, which could then be quickly re-made into war arts if needed. Eisa, another traditional dance, also teaches sword, shield, and spear fighting specialized for uneven terrain if you know where to look. Really cool stuff in my opinion! 

 

Thanks, I will look that  dance up (do you know which king )   ... I always wanted to try 'tinbe and rochin ' ... too late now .

 

 

One of my seniors actually did something similar to this in the cage. We have very basic drills that everyone starts with in our dojo (pak sao, step to the blind side, rolling punch, as an example), that are really used to get people used to the ideals we strive for rather than as a static response to combat, which is NOT static. He went through everyone in the class, having full contact bouts (1 and a half minute rounds, 3 rounds. If an opponent can't fight anymore, they lose) without a break in between, beating us all with these simple drills. Usually it ended in TKOs. Had former wrestlers, an active bouncer, and a few others mixed in too! Really impressive stuff in my opinion. He got me with a single shot to the solar plexus, after which I couldn't get any power cause it shut off my breathing. Can't praise him enough for that!

 

It was an Okinawan, Gichin Funakoshi who did that. He purposely removed all the dangerous or complex movements from the original forms for that purpose (he stated this himself in his memoir, "My Karate-Do"), which did definitely neuter the art for a lot of people.

 

Nah :  That was Itosu .   My tradition comes through Soken (Bushi) Matsamura .  Him and Itosu where left and right hand man of the king (  clerks or assistants but both well trained as his personal bodyguards , but Soken was the main one . There was a split between them. After the system collapsed , Soken's art went into a family tradition ( that is, it was not the style of the Royal family but the style of the protector of the KIng )  and passed on to Nabe , Hohan Soken , Kosei Nishihira  .  Itosu  changed  old karate and developed modern karate .  Funakoshi  was his student and learnt this ( although probably some older stuff and kata applications , certainly some of Itosu's 'wrestling'  -  throws ) , but that suffered further censorship (see what his son did with 'shotokan' ) .  It wasnt until 1922 that Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan.

 

" Itosu (Itotsu) or Azato was given the name "Anko or Ankoh" ("Iron Horse") because of his proficiency at the Naihanchi stance.  He is credited for creating and introducing the Pinans ("Peaceful Mind") I-V Katas to the Okinawan public schools in 1901.  He is also credited for Kusanku Sho and Passai Sho.  Some of the most important modern day instructors that trained directly under him were: Chibana, Chosin; Funakoshi, Gichin; Kyan, Chotoku; Mabuni, Kenwa, Kanken Toyama, Kentsu Yabu, and Shinpan Gusukuma to name just a few.

When Karate became part of the physical education training at the Shuri Elementary School in 1901, Itosu Sensei was its first instructor. This was the first step for the popularization of modern Okinawan Karate. Between 1905 and 1915, Itosu Sensei was a part-time Karate instructor at the Okinawan Dai Ichi High School. "

"

 

 

There are a few stories how Funakoshi did not know a lot of the  moves behind kata ('bunkai' ) .  With Itosu  and development of Pinan kata, in them we can see  moves , the same or similar , from 'Kusanku' form . ( I would be very interested to see where else Pinan forms where drawn from)  .  Kusnaku itself seems to be or adapted from a Chinese form ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kūsankū

 

 

As a martial artist, I definitely don't agree with it.

However, and very importantly, this action singlehandedly brought karate from being a small, local art, to being something practiced worldwide. For all of our lamenting dying arts, he did a damn good job at saving his! Plus, even without the maiming moves, it does retain some spiritual value to practice, and the sportified version even works to sharpen some martial skills, if used in conjunction with traditional training. It definitely cut the path that normal karateka can travel short, but it got that many more people to get at least some benefit from it, and they can always dig deeper to uncover more. 

 

Well, its how I 'came into '  things .  The thing is , its 'logic' and development are very ..........   'Japanese'      (to put it nicely )

 

All in all, very double edged sword.

My two cents: Take videos of you doing all the forms while you still can! Multiple angles, multiple takes, and record the names at least! That can save at least the skeleton of the system, which if passed into the right hands, can be rebuilt. We're lucky we have this sort of technology now, so we gotta use it before this stuff is completely lost! Ya don't have to release em publicly, but at least have it so that records remain somewhere!

 

Nah .  Its all trashed now . No one is interested .

 

Every so often someone   finds out what I studied and learnt , gets enthused, arranges or promises to meet up ..... and it never happens .  Empty words .

 

A while back I dumped a lot of my  magical files and diaries at the dump .  Its not just  that , that is being lost , old knowledge is disappearing faster than species do in Australia . 'new stuff' is taking its place . I have run into this a fair bit with indigenous elders ( "Me and / or  .... are the last ones left , no one wants to learn or know , when I die this will all be gone and knowledge  lost ." )

And some of that knowledge is older than 10,000 years !

 

 

 

And as far as my specific like  ( that I used to teach to the rare ones , many years back  )   martial arts combined with magick  ..... HA!  No one would have a clue  or the remotest interest beyond 'lip service' .

 

The last 10 years , any poster, advertising or flyer  I would see that looked interesting  (  eg  ' New Hermeticists '  .... ' Kobudo Culture ' .... etc . on closer examination it was the name of a DJ or dance party    )

 

- good luck future people  ! 

 

 

 

Edited August 29 by Nungali

[Cobie]

 

49 minutes ago, Nungali said:

… old knowledge is disappearing … [The] indigenous elders [say] “… no one wants to learn or know , when I die this will all be gone and knowledge  lost ." … some of that knowledge is older than 10,000 years ! …

Very sad. 

 

Quote

… A while back I dumped a lot of my  magical files and diaries at the dump .  

Yes I recently did the same with a lot of my old writing. 

 

Quote

martial arts combined with magick  .....

Sounds very ‘you’. 

 

Quote

… No one would have a clue  

Not me anyway. 
 

 

Edited August 29 by Cobie

[Nungali]

On 28/08/2024 at 11:33 PM, Paradoxal said:

In other news, since my last post, I made it back to Okinawa for a week! I got to learn the basics of a sai form from Motobu Udundi, as well as talked with my sensei for a bit longer. Apparently, I was one of three people in the entirety of Okinawa who learned that aforementioned naginata/bo form! The other two were my sensei and his elder. It was really worrying to hear that, though, as it means the art is that close to dying. 

I also got to attend a seminar with Hokama Tetsuhiro-sensei of Goju ryu, which was quite fun!

 

I've looked more into this .  Very interesting history, style and philosophy .  There seem a lot of similarities  with what I was doing  and developing  (  'developing ' , that is ,  as  some of the instructors here did not seem to 'get it ' , so I would have to travel around, pick their brains, train with them, watch old films , and' put 2 and  2 together ' ,  etc  )  - Motobu-ryu already  had it , it seems   -  meaning , they seem more 'open' about who they teach it to    ( if you know what you are doing , you got nothing to hide  )  .

 

It looks like Motobu also 'distanced' himself from Funokoshi and Itosu .  He 'beat' Funokoshi to Japan, and stunned them  ( the famous bout against the boxer  ... but Funokshi ended up with the credit .    He also trained under Sokon Matsamura and it seems he shared the same view about  the import of Niharchin kata as  Kosea Nishihira  did .    

 

 

.

Edited August 30 by Nungali

[Master Logray]

10 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Very sad. 

 

Yes I recently did the same with a lot of my old writing. 

 

 

You can photo them and trash the originals.  It saves space.

 

[Cobie]

 

On 29/08/2024 at 11:49 PM, Nungali said:

… - good luck future people  ! 

One day all this will be yours!

 

 

No thanks ancestors, I’d rather have this.

 

 

Edited August 31 by Cobie

[Nungali]

There is a joke told by an Aboriginal comedian here .  More like your second picture , but an Australian landscape .

The caption is ' Son ..... one day , all of this will NOT be yours .'

 

- a bit of 'black humor'  ,  as they call it down here .

[Paradoxal]

On 8/30/2024 at 6:49 AM, Nungali said:

Thanks, I will look that  dance up (do you know which king )   ... I always wanted to try 'tinbe and rochin ' ... too late now .

 

Unfortunately, I don't! All of this was explained to me in Japanese, but my Japanese is still somewhat weak, so there are parts I missed.

 

I can, however, offer a video or two I took of Eisa recently: 

 

 

 

On 8/30/2024 at 6:49 AM, Nungali said:

Nah :  That was Itosu .   My tradition comes through Soken (Bushi) Matsamura .  Him and Itosu where left and right hand man of the king (  clerks or assistants but both well trained as his personal bodyguards , but Soken was the main one . There was a split between them. After the system collapsed , Soken's art went into a family tradition ( that is, it was not the style of the Royal family but the style of the protector of the KIng )  and passed on to Nabe , Hohan Soken , Kosei Nishihira  .  Itosu  changed  old karate and developed modern karate .  Funakoshi  was his student and learnt this ( although probably some older stuff and kata applications , certainly some of Itosu's 'wrestling'  -  throws ) , but that suffered further censorship (see what his son did with 'shotokan' ) .  It wasnt until 1922 that Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan.

Thank you for this correction! It's been a bit since I did my studies, so I must have mis-remembered! 

 

On 8/30/2024 at 6:49 AM, Nungali said:

Nah .  Its all trashed now . No one is interested .

 

Every so often someone   finds out what I studied and learnt , gets enthused, arranges or promises to meet up ..... and it never happens .  Empty words .

 

A while back I dumped a lot of my  magical files and diaries at the dump .  Its not just  that , that is being lost , old knowledge is disappearing faster than species do in Australia . 'new stuff' is taking its place . I have run into this a fair bit with indigenous elders ( "Me and / or  .... are the last ones left , no one wants to learn or know , when I die this will all be gone and knowledge  lost ." )

And some of that knowledge is older than 10,000 years !

"No one" is a strong way to say it. I know for a fact that I'm busting my ass constantly to learn and preserve as many of these smaller traditions as I can, though I am only one person so there's only so much I can do. I'm sure there must be others like me out there though, who are motivated and willing to put in the work; it's just a matter of when fate brings them your way. Old knowledge, old ways, these always have exceptional value in the right hands, but many "new" people fail to see that value. That just seems to be how the world works, at least, from what I've seen. 

 

On 8/30/2024 at 6:49 AM, Nungali said:

martial arts combined with magick

That, precisely, is what I'm working to develop on my own. For example, Wing Chun has many magical elements to it that aren't taught by the masters I've learned from, though they are definitely there and can definitely be developed further. I see these present in Motobu Udundi, as well as the more common forms passed down in karate lineages, but as most people practicing lack the awareness of the magical side of things, they never delve into it. 

 

That said, if someone were trying to advertise that they were *teaching* a magic/martial art system, I'd prolly look at it with skepticism too. These 'magical martial arts' seem too good to be true, after all. Even if I spend my whole life on developing one, I'm personally not sure if I'd teach it publicly *because* of the way it looks to outsiders or the uninitiated. Despite this, however, I still think there's a *lot* of value in preserving this sort of information, so I keep digital notes and will probably put em out to the internet if I have time before I die. That way, if someone goes searching however many years into the future, they'll at least have a reference point rather than having to start from scratch. Unfortunately, times change and information fragments and gets lost, but as long as we pass on what we can, it'll stay around that much longer and have a chance to be completed again later. 

On 8/30/2024 at 2:33 PM, Nungali said:

It looks like Motobu also 'distanced' himself from Funokoshi and Itosu .  He 'beat' Funokoshi to Japan, and stunned them  ( the famous bout against the boxer  ... but Funokshi ended up with the credit .    He also trained under Sokon Matsamura and it seems he shared the same view about  the import of Niharchin kata as  Kosea Nishihira  did .    

 

That Motobu is a different Motobu. Motobu ryu, founded by Motobu Choki, is a form of karate which is *not* based on the royal arts. Saru no Motobu, or Motobu the Monkey, was third-in-line and was thus *not* taught the family martial arts (though he did absorb some from exposure, of course). He learned karate from outside the Motobu family and polished it in street fights to an extraordinarily high level. The bout with Gichin Funakoshi was fought by Motobu Choki using Motobu Ryu, not Motobu Udundi.

 

Sorry for the long wait for the reply, I just couldn't get YouTube uploads to work for some reason!