Christianity

[Cobie]

On 04/10/2024 at 8:56 PM, Thrice Daily said:

…  the more accurate translation

The word used in the original Greek (Matthew 5:5) is πραεῖς - soft, gentle; tame; mild.

 

9 minutes ago, Cobie said:

… In this context, ‘meek’ means ‘to put your trust in God’.  

 

Edited Sunday at 10:19 PM by Cobie

[Thrice Daily]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I am saying what I said ... its up there  ^ .

 

One thing that might make it less confusing  for you is the context  to what I was replying to . .. and the accurate reading of what I posted .

 

For example , you talked about a bunch of knights going to avenge  wrongdoings ... I pointed out a whole lot of other dynamics  going on .. for example plenary indulgences , swarms of people who where NOT knights getting involved ... motivated by base Christian theology , the thing blue eyed snake seemed to be  complaining about .. - its virtually the same thing  modern Islamic terrorists and ancient Islamic warriors have been seeking .  I see you have ignored or passed  by  the points I made  and gone back to appealing about the reason you gave for the invasion in the first place .

 

Its like the same 'game playing' going on when a non Christian says 'Christians burnt witches '  and a Christian comes along and says 'Actually that was the civil authorities and not the church . "

 

if one is not perceptive ... that works .

I'm going to finish by saying this, there are many peaceful Muslims, contrary to their core teachings laid out in the Suras

There are lots of Murderous Christians that don't actually follow the core messages in the teachings, just the Jesus stuff (which is so very simple and effective)

 

Not doubt load of Christians would have committed all sorts of atrocities, back then. They do now in times of war, its disgusting and terrible and these streaks run through the hearts of men don't they?, but its not part of the doctrinal teachings of the new testament is it, to rape and pillage and cannibalise. (so these are bad Christians I get that I really get that)

 

But the bigger world picture seems to escape you entirely,  Unless you are going to talk about the fact that 3/4 of Christendom was jacked, northern Africa and Spain included , and there was probably something that had to happen to diffuse the situation, (with force)

 

I'm sorry the innocents got hurt in all of this by crappy Christians that took advantage of wartime... I really am, but what exactly is the alternative.... lose France, then what, the UK, Italy etc... At the time what exactly was the choice?

 

I'm sure there are many stories of nasty stuff that locals got up to, and the church. I'm not denying that, I'm not defending the church as such, I think its probably rotten to the core at the top, like practically every other religious institution that has a pot of money at the top. That's just the way it is though isn't it? You don't throw away Buddhism because of political corruption in the temple, that human silliness, like what you are talking about.

 

So stop skirting around the issue and tell me what should have happened instead of the 4 year crusade we are talking about? 

 

[Nungali]

2 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I don't think it ended tribalism, please read my last comment above this one.

 

I got it from this :

"And so we have a thread here called "Christianity" and we have manners and values that we simply take for granted in western countries built on the back of these decisions to cut off from the old ways.

 

Would it have been better had we stayed tribal?,  "

 

But I see you didnt mean that now .

 

 

It certainly didn't end it and luckily hasn't been ended by it either. Although it came close over the years, Conquests, Communism, Hollywood... It's all coming out in the wash though, the good, the bad and the ugly. There is a lot on the table, but I'm betting the good outweighs the bad, when it comes to the overall value and need for Christianity (and Buddhism, Taoism, and others,,,) in the dimly lit world right now. (and by that I don't mean we need the church or religious institutions as such, I mean in the heart and the good , with its ability to pacify evil in the world) .

 

I disagree ... its old and out of date and still uses the Old testament ... primitive !  if you need a religion I suggest something modern that more addresses our current needs ... have you tried the Baha'i Faith ?

 

So many people need to be saved from the atrocities they are ready to commit, its so sad, I mean look at London and the knife crime there, every day another murder, another revenge, another vendetta, its so sad, in every major city. If all could find forgiveness in their hearts at the same time it could end tomorrow. 

 

Forgiveness is a plague on modern society , it has turned into a soft wokism that allows abets and forgets evil .  Philipines had a bad nasty knife culture , gangs ready to slasj your face , in even in country villages , except old men walked around village or toen at night ... 'Uncles' , expert at escima , kali, etc , ready to 'tap naughty boys with stick and send them home to mommy ' if they cause trouble .

 

Do that first .... then maybe hand out your forgiveness later .

 

 

 

That's why I personally trust Jesus message above all else, like so many others do, in the blood and pain of a sacrifice like that, it makes sense to me that wish can echo through the sands of time to the hearts of that man or young boys, the night before committing a sin like that, just that they see a dove, a lamb, a glimmer of hope, that tomorrow might not pick up that knife, and be saved from the sin before it happens. if only they can see a glimmer of hope in their heart they will be saved from the madness of it all and that tough step towards radical forgiveness and the mental leap of ,,, having trust in the universal law, or leaving ot in Gods hands...

 

Yep, those knife guys might think twice about it after they have seen a dove or a lamb .  Struth mate ... what pixie castle did you grow up in !   Have you ever had anything to do with this type of person ?  

 

I love all the rich philosophy from other traditions sure, but nothing cuts to the root of the problem so swiftly as, forgive those... and love your enemy. It makes me smile that Jesus put it in that particular nut shell. If you can absolutely only give one peace of advice that could save humanity right now, it would be that, imho

 

Sorry ... that advice was for Jews 2000 ya with no hope but to comply with the Roman Empire

 

Do you agree? or do you think there is a better short quote of advice that could stop all the madness and killing in the world, right now if it struck the hearts of men? (like it does every day, thank god)

 

Yes I do know what it wrong  and what caused it . I have written many an indepth anthropological and historical post relating to the roots of these issues  .. but there is no overnight or quick fix healing for an issue that took 1000s of years to develop .

 

I hope you don't think Tribalism is the right answer.

 

No, but it seemed  at least confusing, initially ,  from your wording , that you associated it with some type of pre christian  savagness ..

 

However there are many aspects of what we could call tribalism that the world needs today .

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

Again I'll ask the question what should have happened instead of the 4 year crusade we are talking about?  

 

And what about the battle of Tours, should the French have not repelled the invaders, due to the civil upset they caused when they re entered Spain, I don't want to come off sarcastic, but I really think you should revisit that historical period for a bit and have a look at some maps..

 

And one more, have you got kids?

Edited Sunday at 10:39 PM by Thrice Daily

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm going to finish by saying this, there are many peaceful Muslims, contrary to their core teachings laid out in the Suras

There are lots of Murderous Christians that don't actually follow the core messages in the teachings, just the Jesus stuff (which is so very simple and effective)

 

Not doubt load of Christians would have committed all sorts of atrocities, back then. They do now in times of war, its disgusting and terrible and these streaks run through the hearts of men don't they?, but its not part of the doctrinal teachings of the new testament is it, to rape and pillage and cannibalise. (so these are bad Christians I get that I really get that)

 

But the bigger world picture seems to escape you entirely,  Unless you are going to talk about the fact that 3/4 of Christendom was jacked, northern Africa and Spain included , and there was probably something that had to happen to diffuse the situation, (with force)

 

I'm sorry the innocents got hurt in all of this by crappy Christians that took advantage of wartime... I really am, but what exactly is the alternative.... lose France, then what, the UK, Italy etc... At the time what exactly was the choice?

 

I'm sure there are many stories of nasty stuff that locals got up to, and the church. I'm not denying that, I'm not defending the church as such, I think its probably rotten to the core at the top, like practically every other religious institution that has a pot of money at the top. That's just the way it is though isn't it? You don't throw away Buddhism because of political corruption in the temple, that human silliness, like what you are talking about.

 

So stop skirting around the issue and tell me what should have happened instead of the 4 year crusade we are talking about? 

 

 

I am not 'skirting around the issue '  at all ... I am agreeing with blue eyed snake's 'issue'  . However you made another issue  and now want to know what an alternative might be .

 

Since you never really answered any of my valid points but switched to this 'what should have happened instead'   'demand '  ;

 

They could have raised a regular army  instead of getting a bunch of  civilians , promised with eternal life , to swarm through the countryside devouring everything, as they where totally unprepared for any 'military action'  and then getting wiped out without achieving anything .

[Nungali]

3 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Again I'll ask the question what should have happened instead of the 4 year crusade we are talking about?  

 

 

Impatient and immediately wanting an answer eh ?    Even though there was a queue  .

 

And one more, have you got kids?

 

I am used to them ...  "Now little Johnny , wait your turn , all your needs can not be addressed immediately . "    

 

[Thrice Daily]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I am not 'skirting around the issue '  at all ... I am agreeing with blue eyed snake's 'issue'  . However you made another issue  and now want to know what an alternative might be .

 

Since you never really answered any of my valid points but switched to this 'what should have happened instead'   'demand '  ;

 

They could have raised a regular army  instead of getting a bunch of  civilians , promised with eternal life , to swarm through the countryside devouring everything, as they where totally unprepared for any 'military action'  and then getting wiped out without achieving anything .

Right but that's not the actual Crusade I first referred to, the one I was talking about was the churches first response after Christendom was battered for 400 years, the one that took 4 years and they managed to get Jerusalem back 

 

what you were talking about was a side story to what i was originally saying, fair point on the organized army though, I agree, it could all have been a lot more organized, and the soldiers would have probably done a lot better of they took a load of women with them too. I'm not even joking.

 

Promise of eternal life and buying places in heaven was such a con, such a scam, shameful behaviour, a lot of the early popes were absolutely nuts as well, or gangsters and the like, crazy times for Christianity back then wasnt it. 

[Thrice Daily]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Don't take the mick i'm being serious  

 

About the kids? have you got them? it will totally adapt my answers to your questions about violence, stick fighting and knife fighting etc,

 

If you got kids you will get a different answer, make sense?

[Thrice Daily]

It's alright we wll come back to he kids thing later if you want to.. 

 

I'll give a more general answer for what I think about violence and forgiveness. Currently i'm writing a book and this chapter sums it up nicely so I'll share it here as a little sample, there are many chapters its 340 pages ish, called "The Cross and The Tao". Its apt to share a bit...

 

How might the concept of “turning the other cheek” be understood from a Taoist perspective?

 

"Turning the other cheek," a phrase synonymous with non-resistance and profound forgiveness, is one of the most striking teachings of Jesus Christ. Found in the Sermon on the Mount, it challenges the conventional wisdom of retaliation and calls for a radical approach to conflict—one that seeks peace and reconciliation over revenge. But how might this Christian principle resonate with Taoist philosophy, which values harmony, balance, and non-contention? And how does this idea relate to the broader context of Eastern thought, particularly in Buddhism, where non-violence and compassion are also held in high regard?

To understand this, we must delve into the nuanced perspectives of Taoism, which, while advocating for peace and non-resistance, also recognizes the complexities of human nature and the necessity, at times, for righteous action.

The Principle of Non-Contention: Wu Wei and Yielding

Taoist Perspective: In Taoism, the concept of non-contention (wú zhēng 無爭) is central to its philosophy of life. Laozi, the sage behind the Tao Te Ching, writes, "The soft and yielding overcomes the hard and unyielding" (Tao Te Ching, Chapter 76). This principle suggests that strength lies in flexibility and resilience, not in aggression. The Taoist ideal is one of flowing with the natural order of things, avoiding forceful resistance, and allowing the Tao to guide one's actions.

The notion of wu wei (無為), often translated as "non-action" or "effortless action," complements this. It teaches that one should act in harmony with the Tao, without striving or forcing outcomes. In this context, turning the other cheek can be seen as an application of wu wei—a deliberate choice to not retaliate, thereby maintaining inner peace and allowing the situation to resolve itself naturally, without escalating violence.

Comparative Insight: From a Taoist standpoint, turning the other cheek aligns with the idea of yielding rather than resisting. It’s about maintaining one’s composure and refusing to be dragged into the destructive cycle of revenge. The Taoist sage, much like the Christian who follows Christ’s teachings, would see the wisdom in not allowing anger or pride to dictate their response to aggression.

The Yin-Yang of Non-Resistance and Righteous Action

Taoist Perspective: While Taoism values non-contention, it does not advocate for passivity in the face of injustice. The concept of yin-yang (陰陽) highlights the balance of opposites within the Tao—dark and light, passive and active, yielding and assertive. Taoist philosophy acknowledges that there are times when action, even forceful action, is necessary to restore balance.

Zhuangzi, another great Taoist sage, offers stories that explore this dynamic balance. In one tale, a butcher demonstrates wu wei through the effortless precision with which he carves an ox, using no more force than necessary and allowing the natural lines of the animal’s body to guide his blade. This story illustrates the Taoist ideal of using just enough action to achieve harmony, suggesting that in certain situations, non-resistance must be balanced with appropriate action.

Turning the Other Cheek in Taoism: Turning the other cheek, in this light, could be seen not as a blanket prohibition against all forms of resistance, but as a strategic choice. It’s an example of yin—the passive, yielding force—asserting itself in a situation where direct confrontation (yang) would lead to greater harm. But if the situation escalates or if the aggressor continues to disrupt the balance, Taoism leaves room for yang—righteous action—to restore harmony.

The Buddhist Influence: Compassion and the Warrior’s Path

Buddhist Perspective: Buddhism, closely related to Taoism in its historical development in China, also teaches non-violence (ahimsa) and compassion as core virtues. The Dhammapada, a collection of sayings of the Buddha, advises, "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule" (Dhammapada, Chapter 1, Verse 5). This echoes the sentiment of turning the other cheek, advocating for a response of love and compassion in the face of aggression.

However, Buddhism also recognizes that the world is filled with conflict and suffering, and sometimes, the path of the bodhisattva (an enlightened being who seeks to alleviate the suffering of others) involves standing up against injustice. This is where the concept of the warrior monk emerges—a figure who, while committed to the ideals of peace and compassion, trains in martial arts to protect the innocent and uphold righteousness.

Warrior Monks: The Shaolin monks, perhaps the most famous of these warrior monks, are a testament to this duality. While deeply rooted in Buddhist and Taoist teachings of non-violence, they also train rigorously in martial arts, not for aggression, but for defense. Their discipline embodies the balance between yin (compassion) and yang (protective action), showing that while peace is the goal, sometimes it must be defended.

Taoist Martial Practices: Taoism itself has a rich tradition of martial arts, such as Tai Chi Chuan and Xing Yi Quan. These practices emphasize inner balance, energy cultivation (qi), and the ethical use of force. Just as in Buddhism, Taoist martial arts are not about violence but about mastering oneself and responding to aggression with a calm, centered mind. The Taoist martial artist, much like the warrior monk, is guided by a moral code, using their skills only when necessary to restore harmony and justice.

Comparative Insight: The concept of turning the other cheek, when viewed through a Taoist and Buddhist lens, is not about passive surrender to injustice. Rather, it’s a strategic choice, a preference for peace, and a refusal to perpetuate the cycle of violence. However, both traditions recognize that when peace is threatened, there may be a need for righteous action to defend it. This balance reflects the yin-yang principle, where non-resistance and resistance are not opposites, but complementary forces that together maintain the harmony of the Tao.

Justice and Injustice: The Taoist Approach to Righteous Action

Taoist Perspective on Justice: Justice, in Taoism, is about restoring harmony rather than enforcing laws or exacting retribution. The Taoist sage seeks to resolve conflicts by bringing all parties back into alignment with the Tao. This approach is less about punishment and more about correction and reconciliation.

Zhuangzi writes, "The sage is quiet because he is not moved by worldly desires, not because he is filled with ambition" (Zhuangzi, Chapter 1). This quietness, rooted in detachment, suggests a form of justice that does not seek to assert dominance or control but aims to restore balance and harmony. When turning the other cheek, a Taoist might interpret this as an opportunity to remain still and composed, allowing the aggressor to see the futility of their actions and, in doing so, inviting them to correct their imbalance, rather than escalating the conflict and perpetuating a cycle of harm.

Righteous Action in Taoism: However, when faced with persistent injustice, Taoism does not demand passivity. The concept of zhengyi (正義), or righteous action, can come into play. Righteous action in Taoism is not about vengeance but about restoring the natural order. If turning the other cheek does not bring peace, the Taoist might choose to act, but in a way that is measured, just, and aligned with the principles of the Tao.

Comparative Insight: In Christianity, turning the other cheek is an expression of love and forgiveness, a refusal to engage in the destructive cycle of retribution. In Taoism, it can be seen as an application of non-contention and yielding, a strategy to maintain harmony. However, Taoism also leaves room for righteous action when necessary, balancing yin with yang, and ensuring that justice is served in a way that restores, rather than disrupts, the balance of the Tao.

A Harmonious Approach to Conflict

When viewed through a Taoist lens, the Christian teaching of turning the other cheek reveals a shared wisdom between East and West—a preference for peace, a recognition of the futility of revenge, and a deep understanding of the power of non-resistance. However, Taoism offers a nuanced perspective, acknowledging the complexities of life and the necessity, at times, for action to restore harmony and justice.

Taoist philosophy, with its emphasis on balance, suggests that turning the other cheek is not an absolute rule but a strategic choice—a way to maintain harmony without escalating conflict. Kou Qianzhi, a prominent Taoist reformer, once said, "The Tao is both firm and yielding, strong and gentle. In balance lies the path of the sage." This balance implies that when peace is genuinely threatened and an aggressor persists in their injustice, righteous action may be necessary, much like the warrior monks of Buddhism who act guided by a moral code and a sense of great responsibility.

 

The Christian teaching acknowledges the duality of peace and preparedness, as illustrated by Jesus’ words: "If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" (Luke 22:36). This verse underscores that while peace is the ultimate goal, there is also a need to be ready to defend it when necessary. In this context, Jordan Peterson’s interpretation of the phrase "the meek shall inherit the earth" as those who "have swords and know how to use them yet keep them sheathed" taps into a broader understanding of meekness, in the original script. Rather than a mistranslation as some may argue, Peterson's interpretation reflects a deeper, perhaps more nuanced, understanding of what constitutes meekness. True meekness in the biblical sense is not about weakness or passivity; it is about controlled strength. The original meaning involves a sense of power under discipline—being capable of great force but choosing to exercise restraint. Thus, those who are meek are not powerless; instead, they possess the ability to act forcefully but choose the path of peace and humility.

 

This aligns with the earlier teaching that while peace is to be pursued, preparedness for its defense is also crucial. Just as Jesus advised his followers to be ready, the true meek are those who possess strength and the wisdom to use it judiciously. They are capable of wielding a sword but choose to keep it sheathed, embodying the balance between peace and preparedness. Therefore, the inheritance of the earth by the meek is a recognition of the strength that lies in controlled power, in choosing peace when one has the option of force.

 

Thus, the Taoist perspective on turning the other cheek offers a profound and balanced approach to conflict—one that values peace and non-resistance but also understands the importance of justice and the ethical use of force. It is a reminder that while harmony is the goal, achieving it sometimes requires more than just yielding; it requires wisdom, compassion, and the courage to act in alignment with the Tao.

 

What ethical framework emerges when combining the Christian notion of divine will with the Taoist emphasis on natural order?

In the grand expanse of spiritual wisdom, Christianity and Taoism both offer profound paths for living in harmony with the greater forces that shape the cosmos. While Christianity speaks of divine will—God’s purposeful plan for creation—Taoism emphasizes the Tao, the natural order that underlies and directs all existence. When these two perspectives are woven together, a unique and powerful ethical framework emerges, one that is deeply rooted in spiritual faith and yet profoundly attuned to the rhythms of nature. This harmonious blend of divine intention and natural flow provides a way of ethical living that is both responsive and guided, both dynamic and serene.

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Personally I do do a bit of Kali, but just for the dance of heavens six really and using it as a flowing base to practice a bit of kungfu, nothing dramatic, I'm more likely to tickle an aggressor than strike them.  Although as I favour Wing Chun so Whatever Comes, Stays. Forgiveness begins in the heart though not the fists...

[Cobie]

 

3 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

… "The soft and yielding overcomes the hard and unyielding" (Tao Te Ching, Chapter 76). …

Nice one. That’s why the meek (those who trust in God) will inherit the earth. 
 

 

[Cobie]

 

52 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

… "The Cross and The Tao" …

There was a German Sinologist who argued that the word ‘Tao’ came from the Hebrew ‘Jahweh’.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tao-Te-King-Laotse/dp/3717512463 

So too did the Sinologist Abel Remusat.

Some Jewish ancient artefacts were found in Honan. W C White

https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Jews-compilation-relating-Kai-feng/dp/B0006BP4LI 
Some say there was a Jewish settlement in Honan at the time of Laozi. Laozi (Lǐ Ěr, some say it’s the Jewish surname Li). Laozi was an archivist in Honan. That’s all I know about it (I haven’t read the books).

 

 

Edited Monday at 12:00 AM by Cobie

[manitou]

On 10/12/2024 at 3:33 PM, Nungali said:

I would say it is both ... it is from without ... a 'non local' awareness / consciousness .  and it is a type of 'unconscious opening ' from within - by that I mean its caused and regulated (timed ) by some internal clock that knows when you have developed enough to deal with it  ... like puberty ... we dont consciously create that change .

 

 

 

It occurs to me that having known you for many years now, that your spiritual awareness is at your fingertips at all times.  It is apparent that you've digested all the book-learnin' that's a part of all this, but that you've merged it in with your being and it lives totally within you.  I love the reference to puberty, as that's exactly how it does seem to be!  Things are given 'as needed', not piled up into a big stack of knowledge, which is of the ego, as you say.  I guess I just want to say that I appreciate you, Nungers.

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

However, Buddhism also recognizes that the world is filled with conflict and suffering, and sometimes, the path of the bodhisattva (an enlightened being who seeks to alleviate the suffering of others) involves standing up against injustice. This is where the concept of the warrior monk emerges—a figure who, while committed to the ideals of peace and compassion, trains in martial arts to protect the innocent and uphold righteousness.

 

I firmly believe that this is a poisonous and dangerous mis-understanding of the dharma. The tool a bodhisattva uses to alleviate suffering is WISDOM.

 

Quote

"Wisdom is identified as the recognition during the formal meditation session that all phenomena are empty, and the knowledge during the post-meditation phase that all phenomena are unreal, like a magical illusion or a dream." - Patrul Rinpoche

 

A bodhisattva's job, where there is insight, is to be WITH the suffering of others. It is not to intervene and DENY others their karma (the very vehicle of their liberation), but to help others realize the consequences and lessons of their karma. Compassion is the important aspect here - not the same as empathy. The desire to be of support in suffering and point the way to transforming it. 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

A bodhisattva's job, where there is insight, is to be WITH the suffering of others. It is not to intervene and DENY others their karma (the very vehicle of their liberation), but to help others realize the consequences and lessons of their karma. Compassion is the important aspect here - not the same as empathy. The desire to be of support in suffering and point the way to transforming it. 

 

Thank you @stirling

 

I am certainly not a boddhisattva, but this brings us back to my post about the white light from above which I have always experienced as going hand in hand with compassion. No compassion, no white light or at last not in an amount that matters much in the broader sense.

 

[blue eyed snake]

9 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

From the song of the high one:

 

I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run.

No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes,
screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there.^[10]

 

^{And after that, he learns the secrets. As it says in my signature:} 

 

^{From a word to a word I was led to a word,
From a work to a work I was led to a work.}

^Havamal

 

i see this as an initiation ritual

[blue eyed snake]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Yes… but no. He is the ancestor of our people. Nothing can change that. Yes, much is lost, but the fire burns forever. 
 

corny maybe, but it is from the heart. You to scandinavian? I genuinley belive we have a lot more legacy from the pagan days. Check out Sturla Ellingsvåg, please.

 

Dutch, from Frisian descent. Over here literally everything is gone. You have to get to reading books and websites to find out what happened before christians took over.

 

in my younger years I've been to the south of england, mainly Cornwall some times. There the signs and energies are to be found in the land almost everywhere. I guess in the scandinavian countries its more like in Cornwall in that regard.

 

 

Over here, nothing except for the most sensitive.

 

there is a place nearby were water wells up from the soil which I am sure once was sacred. And another place a bit further away on top of a small hill, they put a frigging christian graveyard there.

[blue eyed snake]

8 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Extraordinary experiences, it’s great you were able to start sharing the light like this at such an early age and develop your awareness in this way.
 

Very cool story. Can I ask does it make you feel tired when you use it, or does it energise you, or does it vary.

 

i’d be interested to know.

 

nothing extraordinary or cool about it,

just snippets of my life

[blue eyed snake]

9 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

You know we were not quite fed the truth at school and we’re made to feel super guilty about our past.

 

bcame aware of that decades ago 

 

Quote

 

it put me off religion. I recently learned that the historians that wrote our education books were not independent. Our history was heavily censored and much of the literature has been politically corrected

 

@blue eyed snake, You will never guess how many witches were truly executed in the entire Spanish Inquisition?

 

it does not matter how much, it matters that the church instigated and fed a witch hunt where mostly women were slaughtered because they did not fit the model the church preferred for women.

 

 

Quote

 

When you think of all the horror movies made about it it’s quite dreadful what we have been palmed off with as true history. 

 

never looked at those,

who wants to see a horror movie, there is too much horror in the physical world already

Edited Monday at 04:34 AM by blue eyed snake
spelling issues

[blue eyed snake]

8 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I thought it was the crusades that spread Christianity and the knights just went around murdering people why didn’t convert.

 

ah, so you think its alright to murder people who do not want to convert to christianity

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Well then .... I cant remember if I shared this with you before or not , so ....

 

you did not share this before

thank you, goes right to the heart or something like that

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

It occurs to me that having known you for many years now, that your spiritual awareness is at your fingertips at all times.  It is apparent that you've digested all the book-learnin' that's a part of all this, but that you've merged it in with your being and it lives totally within you.  I love the reference to puberty, as that's exactly how it does seem to be!  Things are given 'as needed', not piled up into a big stack of knowledge, which is of the ego, as you say.  I guess I just want to say that I appreciate you, Nungers.

 

 

Yes, we have come a long way .... ever since that day I looked down your cleavage  when you where my Fairy Godmother  .

 

 

( Do you remember that ? )

 

 

- regarding 'digested book learnin' ruminated with spiritual awareness ' ..... my initiation tradition was in 'Scientific Illumination'  - The aim of religion via the method of science ' , or as some prefer ' Spiritual Science ' . 

 

It's eastern equivalent would be Jnana Yoga .

 

https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5019/jnana-yoga

 

' Know Thyself '   ... first , I would say   .... hence the anthropology  .

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

Thank you @stirling

 

I am certainly not a boddhisattva, but this brings us back to my post about the white light from above which I have always experienced as going hand in hand with compassion. No compassion, no white light or at last not in an amount that matters much in the broader sense.

 

 

As I just posted , the 'intellectual path' or Jnana Yoga  is but one of the spokes of the wheel .   The Path of devotion , love and I include  compassion, is a valid one as well ; Bhakti Yoga . There a few other valid paths or Yogas .

 

I am wondering if the  type of illumination , the part of the body 'struck'  , relates to a particular path  (Yoga ) and our paths ( True Will , 'incantatory purpose / mission ?

 

Healer ?  Worker ?  Warrior    eg. the warrior monks mentioned above   , the  true ' Budoist'  ?   Those  that protect the vulnerable from oppression ?  , a Priest   ?

 

I am supposing a Bodhisattva  does  not return as warrior class ?  They are certainly on the 'Love Ray'  IMO  .

 

 

Edited Monday at 06:47 AM by Nungali

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

ah, so you think its alright to murder people who do not want to convert to christianity

 

 

 

Nah , I dont think he liked  the knights  for that     

 

  It was a Christian being reasonable about history   but wanting to  defending the Christian faith ; ' I had thought they where bad but I was wrong, turns out if you read history , it was all justified ... sort of . '

 

The past is admitted but thats the past , sure plenty of bad people  then ... that type of  stuff .

 

Thing is IMO there are certain underlying philosophical problems in Christianity regardless of how they manifest ,  throughout the past , and most certainly into the present .

 

However , a  religious believer is  also  going to defend their belief , where they can .   Obviously they would not agree with me about the underlying philosophical issues , as they have adopted them, for various reasons .

[Thrice Daily]

It’s partly defending Christianity. But then at it’s core i’m just saying defend Love and Grace. (I wanna specify that’s just my opinion and how I prefer to look at the creator) 

 

I'm a fan of other info but I just like to think it can all be condensed to that. Love and Grace. The Lam Rim for example are interesting but in my opinion Superfluous to this…

 

I asked a catholic priest what exactly God is and that was his answer. I was not expecting it… he simply said “Love and Grace” Love is the highest power though as far as I’m concerned, it’s clear when I became a parent Love transcends all else… IMHO,,, anyway I digress

 

My comments have been less about defending faith and more about ‘actual physical reality’. I refer to the Crusades because quite simply without them. The west simply would not of existed as we recognise it.

 

I'm not saying it’s right or wrong but without push back, We would have been totally islamised… 

 

Apart from China and Rome/France the Muslim crusades were a very successful operation for a good 400 years, I’m sure you agree. 
 

I’m just aware of the language I speak, the values and customs I hold , and that they are not by accident , they came from somewhere… 

 

Would we value that, up to you really. 

 

I think it’s very sad that the recipients of Christianity can hold this notion that everything would have been alright if it wasn’t for the Christians. 
 

I haven’t got a Crystal ball so I can’t say what it would have been like if Christianity hadn’t have spread in the first place. None of us have.

 

Many tribes probably, and would have probably been flattened by another tribe that developed a system as effective as Islamism. Again I’m not saying it’s right or wrong just highly effective.

 

Being a Christian is a choice in every moment and it’s testing it’s not forced on people like the old days

 

It’s more resplendent of the very early Christians that we’re radical for the time and risked pain of death for generations to preserve it…

 

. Like when it comes down to it,,, really would I turn the other cheek, would I completely forgive my enemy… 

 

Its a tricky one in a combat life or death scenario isn’t it. 
 

if it was just me I’d happily lay down my life.  But could I watch my family be slaughtered in front of me peacefully. Probably not…

 

nobodies perfect… that’s the way I see it anyway, I don’t mind coming back again and again, I’m comfortable now not to be a complete pacifist but for a long time before I became a father I was totally cool with the idea of laying down my life.

 

id rather protect my family though and live to fight another day, even if that means coming back again and again, I accept that as my Karma.

 

But Jesus didn’t, I humbly respect that and hold it high while bowing my head low.

 

not for everyone, but I respect it…

 

Thats what it takes is it to be a true Buddhist, Boddhisatva etc maybe that’s what it takes lay down one’s life and not intervene with others karma even they are suffering, I get that part too, I’ve pondered it over and over again while looking at a suffering animal, bird, wasp, even a life. Yep it’s their Karma, I get that but it’s a weak argument when it comes to defending your kid IMHO.

 

To become part of the new tree I guess you gotta do what you gotta do… I get that. Good Luck.

 

But history is cruel… 

 

i’d be very interested to know just how peaceful things were before Christianity spread. I’ve not gone that far back in Europe and the Middle East in particular, I’ll try though…
 

Just the last two thousand years has done me, as it seems the most important to get my head around and consequential to our heritage and actual present reality as a civilisation in all we are and all we face… 

 

Because I didn’t understand the last 2000 hardly at all it’s all pretty fresh to me… I like discussing points about it, on this Thread called Christianity. Thankyou for your time in reading, I’m looking forward to your well thought out replies and hope to continue learning as I go.

 

re Lao Tzu  possibly being inspired by Jews. It wouldn’t surprise me. I was blown away recently to learn that one of the lost tribes may have made their way all the way to Mongolia on one point. Anyone heard that?

 

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I firmly believe that this is a poisonous and dangerous mis-understanding of the dharma. The tool a bodhisattva uses to alleviate suffering is WISDOM.

 

 

A bodhisattva's job, where there is insight, is to be WITH the suffering of others. It is not to intervene and DENY others their karma (the very vehicle of their liberation), but to help others realize the consequences and lessons of their karma. Compassion is the important aspect here - not the same as empathy. The desire to be of support in suffering and point the way to transforming it. 

I wrote a poem in 2010 called “the way of the vow” based on the Boddhisattva vow… I loved reading the precepts…

 

Can I recommend a film to watch @stirling through the lense of the vows.

 

it’s called “Collateral” with Jamie Fox and Tom Cruise… 

 

If you watch it closely you will love it I think. It’s so meticulous in it’s unfolding. With This is mind
 

I'm sorry if I caused offence in my writing I may have been too haphazard transitioning straight to warrior monk from Boddhisattva…

 

watch the film again though please. I implore you. I’ll wait to speak with you more should it be the right time 🙏