Christianity

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Thrice Daily said:

Christianity, the good the bad and the ugly sure, but still trying to answer the question posed? 

 

What you reckon?

What is the question? How weird the dogma is?

[blue eyed snake]

 

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Anyone been 'struck' in  LTD  ?   

 

nope, as it works with the  rising energy of the earth and you gotta do work for it. But when its up and running it works the same as the heart does on the white light. It starts whirring and attracts more chi

 

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

We both have 'bits' of the other .  Some would say I am 'compassionate and caring ' , thats the  Cancerian side ; love cooking and feeding people  .... a happy full tummy on others makes ME feel good   ( and , at work I used to have an ability to know what others needed to eat  for them to feel good, on a particular day .  Sometimes they would ask me what they should eat    ... and I would make a diagnosis and 'prescription' ).  Also my work in hospital , geriatrics , postmortem *

 

had I still been a youngster I probably would have dubbed myself nonbinary

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

And you , Blue Eyes , aint exactly a 'dumb bunny' ya know .   ( Sometimes I think she actually gets what I am saying !       ) 

 

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Of course, I am also a hard arse  to wingers  who dont have it tough but think they do  .... but I am used to working with those that are really having difficulty  (in the hospital, in refugee re location - some ex-torture victims , etc ) so I dont have much sympathy unwarranted complainers .

 

I do have it for kids though .   And to answer the question , no I dont have kids . But I didnt want to get into that as I have 'had; a few times , others kids .  It seemed that if I had my own my opinions would be more compassionate ?

 

Dont start that up on me .

 

As I will get into a rant about crap fathers that I had to step up for and take their role as they where pathetic 'not-men' , and give the kids some support attention nurturing and love ... so me 'seeing things differently  if I was  parent' will not fly with me .  I do acknowledge the difference though .... I dont do long term 24 / 7  with them .  But to me , that can make a person less receptive and tolerant to them .

 

you're such a good stepping in dad, as a former child psychologist I am glad guys like you exist, they heal  kids that others have absentmindedly almost ruined. Whatever your flaws, Petrus will welcome you at the gate  for all good deeds you have done to kids

 

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

* some might not consider that 'care' ... but it is . I have a friend  who does it too , recently she was commenting on the difficulty many local Aboriginal people have, how many of them are dying , how much grief is in their community , etc .  Someone asked how she knew that ;  " I go and pick up their  bodies , I wash them and make them look nice , I stand beside  their relatives when they view the bodies , I cry and lament with them ... I help them through all the paperwork and bullshit afterwards ."

 

one of the most neglected and forgotten forms of care, helping people to get into a good mourning process.

[blue eyed snake]

22 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Sure, but that is redefining selfishness to the point of being meaningless. Everyone are like that 

 

no, i think not.

 

most people who think they are helpful nice people with not much selfishness do not realize that deep down they do those things ( giving money to the poor, helping the old lady reach the other end of the street, et cetera ad nauseam) because it makes them feel good, not because it makes the old lady or the poor feel good.

 

they would not act that way without the little dopamine shot "look how good I am"

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

 

  

Edited Tuesday at 09:55 PM by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

34 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

no, i think not.

 

most people who think they are helpful nice people with not much selfishness do not realize that deep down they do those things ( giving money to the poor, helping the old lady reach the other end of the street, et cetera ad nauseam) because it makes them feel good, not because it makes the old lady or the poor feel good.

 

they would not act that way without the little dopamine shot "look how good I am"

 

 

It was the opposite for me. I looked after disabled folk for two years as a live in carer. I trained as a holistic therapist but it all seemed like bs to be taking money for treatments, the people that had money didn't really seem to need it genuinely, maybe to a degree, worked at a HIV clinic for a bit giving treatments but their minds always seemed to be on other things and didn't really seem to be into the free treatments (funny how that works),,  so I travelled instead of setting up a practice,,

 

When I came back I got into live in care work... It certainly didnt make me feel good or shot of dopamine, not really. It just made me feel so humble to have had a life, able bodied and connections with people that most wheelchair bound dont get to experience. It made be feel really bloody lucky, and sad for a while of course. 

 

I think it should be a national service and young people should have a choice of ways to go. Maybe still army (i'd prefer not but it does exist and is good for discipline and comradery) I think planting trees, or helping the sick/elderly should be unpaid national service too. for like 16-20 yr olds or so. they should have to do at least a year imho. I've thought that for a long time.

 

Its complicated isn't it though care work (but service just takes care of itself, its such a healthy way to work imo). Complicated though client to client, It made me think at the time, I'm better working with Avalokiteśvara than Tara , as I usually did stick with Tara at that stage of life, simple basic none offensive as things were.  @Nungali, I'd still be caring full time now I think if I didn't have my daughter, she is precious like a water bubble. I'm glad you like kids, they make life worth living.

Edited Tuesday at 09:59 PM by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

59 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

What is the question? How weird the dogma is?

 

There were loads of questions within the question. It was a great premise to start the post, that's why I got so invested in it tbh.  doubt I'll do it again but it will be here for posterity. I'd like to get into it more deeply, and I'd love some people to contest or elaborate on some of my points. There is a lot to open up. I love the Tribe angle...

 

I think a great question would be, what would have happened without Christianity. Its very interesting as Islam was basically an answer to how to wipe it out and, kinda came from the same root,, but what would have happened if it hadn't. 

 

I wonder which tribes would have grown and spread and which would have been wiped out by others. I think the Vikings might have existed for much longer, maybe maybe not, its very interesting to ponder these things. 

 

The Slavs as well may have made it further into Europe and perhaps effected our language root... 

 

There is a theory that proto slav was actually left over from an earlier time, when slavic langiage basically dominated in terms of language, much like English Dominates the world stage now...

 

And that some how it retracted to a smaller region, and as a seed with the culmination of its former maturity, then spread out again... 

 

Kinda like English has evolved to this point, if the world shut down and had to restart with English again spreading out, its a similar theory that it happened to the Slavic tongue,

 

We cant say for sure though as there is no surviving writing in Slav from far enough back to trace it well.

 

Athough there are supposed to be many parallels with Pali.

 

Back to the question, Dogma, I got caught up on that when I visited the Buddhists for a while I thought they were totally against what they were writing about because they had statues everywhere. It was my faulty thinking though that was out of alignment with the truth of it and I was really disrespectful, luckily I kept that thought to myself till it evolved to a respect. 

 

I bashed church dogma for years as well. But like all things, if you throw the baby out with the bathwater. You don't have the baby, or the bath water.

 

Please list the Christian Dogma you think is BS, it's a good possible path to continue on, should you have the time... It's fair that you get into it. I've not integrated all the ideas of church into my understanding and practice. Maybe some of it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, lets scrutinize it... This is the thread to do so

 

For me Jesus is the perfect realization of a Buddhism and Taoism in operation in a cruel cruel world. He was no doubt inspired my these great traditions on his travels, along with others and decided to lay down his life in an incredible way.  

 

All the other stuff that people have done in his name is superfluous to the truth for me. It seems obvious but we all have different lenses we view this situation through... I personally think if you look at the church, you're likely to miss the point of Jesus, who existed before the first Christian church... 

 

but go on then. Dogma, if you're game I am. 

Edited Tuesday at 10:03 PM by Thrice Daily

[Nungali]

On 10/15/2024 at 1:03 AM, Thrice Daily said:

...

 

regarding the white light you talk off and the paths, sounds very much like the Kabbalah idea of Ain Soph Aur. Is that a place where you have ever put any of your focus in study? 
it’s a bit too old school for me these days… 

 

One thing you might help me clarify although I might be slightly off with it, the old pagan ways and understandings names, cycles colours, paths… were they not kinda integrated into mystery schools and secret societies over the years are preserved as parts of magical rituals and rites. I believe at a certain level the church people were into that were they not, in the form of Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry and the like, they guided guided things from behind the scenes , many nestled into the church. I might be wrong here but if you know more about the preservation of paganism perhaps you could shed some light?

 

I know you asked BES this but I am going to jump in and hope I dont land on her toes .

 

First , any 'old pagan ways '  is a tricky term . let's forget that  for the moment .  people first started learning about this  through necessity , mostly food gathering and medicines - via the 'doctrine of signatures'  qualified by trial and error . That developed as 'civilization' developed . It arose in the major centers of development  and in doctrines and writings of  Zoroastrians, Jews, Greek philosophers  and pre-Greek Egytptians  (and some others ) this got synthesized in the 'Alexandrian Synthesis '   ( they where very serious about this, back then any ship that came into Alexandria would have texts seized, copied in the library and returned - many complained that they got the copies back and not their originals ).

 

Alexandria declined ,  the library burned more than once .  The tradition ( now 'Hermetics' ) moved to Harran in Syria  ( a VERY interesting place , look it up ) . The we had the rise of Islam , they came to Harran and found a mass of people .... to many to 'put to the sword' and besides, they didnt want to convert .  If they could be accepted , problem solved ... and imagine the jizra ! (tax on being accepted as a non Moslem ). They claimed to be Sabians , showed their Hermetic texts  as 'sacred Book' and claimed Hermes  ( as in 'hermetic ' .... Hermes - Mercury - Thoth -  Tjahuti , going backwards to the Egyptian version)  as their prophet .  To cement that the Islamic view flexed to agree as Mohamed does make reference to unnamed prophets before him . They where adopted into the fold  and it was soon realized they held knowledge of medicine , astronomy , mathematics, etc  and that was adopted. Not long after that Islam culture bloomed into a 'Golden Age ' .  meanwhile the Greeks and Jews where developing their contributions .

 

The Islamics had some input in tying a lot of it together  and wrote treatises  , many  about the things  you mentioned above . These translated into Europe  via  Neo-Platonists and  others like  Cornelius Agrippa , (see 'Three Books of Occult Philosophy ' )  where a lot of these relationships are listed .

 

Now that became THE science of the time  and the background behind things like the current then evolving Freemasonic movement . ( That increased again in Victorian times when many did the 'World Tour' and bought back new ideas and philosophies resulting in things like 'Egyptian Freemasonry' and others 'unregulated ' or 'spurious' forms of FM ). In Europe it was blended with the Christian outlook - which was very different to that of today , it was underpinned by neo-Platonism , the 'hermetic current' and the  world view of the time .

 

Then came various other developments that created the scientific revolution and the world view changed , so what had been tied to the previous one  (  the Neo-Platonic / hermetic current ) got thrown out with the bathwater .  ( See The Origins of Modern Science  by Herbert Butterfield , even if only the first few chapters , it is CRUCIAL in understanding all this , and how we- ' collective modern culture ;'western' -  'fell' from a tripartite understanding to a dualistic one - in the overall mental paradigm ) .  There is a free pdf of it online  .

 

The came the revival of magick where the 'holistic'  view returned , along with a development of hermetic kabbalah .  Alongside that developments in Freemasonry split off and developed certain traditions that eventually evolved into some of the occult and initiation  schools of the west . Eg. one of the biggest international ones of today is  Ordo Templi Orientis , whose roots come from 'The Rites of Mephas and Mizraim , 'spurious' Egyptian Freemasonry ' .

 

I am not sure where one would draw the 'pagan' line in all  this ?

 

And that 'magical technology' was incorporated into the  Mass ; the use of special colors for certain rites, different vestments , incenses (here the incense of the 'God' Jesus is considered tripartite;  the three gifts of the  three wise men  (supposed Magi  / Zoroastrians    )  .. also 'sacraments' can be seen as religious equivalents to the different stages of initiation , especially  with the basic ones , which are based on birth,  life and death  ( its even the same in the Aboriginal initiation traditions here and other places  ) ; baptism , confirmation, last rites .

 

So ....  " understandings names, cycles colors, paths… were they not kinda integrated into mystery schools and secret societies over the years are preserved as parts of magical rituals and rites."    Yes, 'kinda' .  and you will find a lot of that in Agrippa .

 

Things are classified as 'in a similar vibration '  thats how we get the modern idea that a particular astrological sign for a person gives their 'favorite'   gem ... or the one 'best' for them .   Thats why the altar of Venus might be based on a green  color scheme , require a certain incense , a certain oration, etc .   I had to learn a lot of that to pass examinations  (in a mystery school ) .

 

the modern treatise on it  would be

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/777/index

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

..

Now it was just this blood thing that got me. Perfect blood,, scary I had to pick it apart. I thought of sacrifices people made for different purposes, the adrenalin, blood drinking, earthly power all this… the rituals over time in various cults and systems. And tribes. What do you make of this kind of ritual @Nungali?

...

 

One's I know about :

tribal ;  a hunter should not eat the hunt but first return with food and feed the elderly and children  first  an then they can eat . The exception is , if they are  hungry and weak and may not  be able to get the heavy meat back to camp , they may drink some of the fresah blood to get energy to do the task at hand , to get the food back to the tribe .

 

other 'magical uses' ?  I dont want to know about it .... it smacks oif 'black magic' to me .

 

I have no desire to drink Christ's blood, or any other God's blood .  Why would I do that, when I get my magical force straight from the 'origin'  and not have it go through a 'blood transformation' first and then drink that and then transform it back to  its form ?

 

By the way ( and I have debated this successfully , mostly because others are so unfamiliar with my specialties ' and the actual 'goings on' and what is behind them - like intent ) there was never any 'sacrificial culture' within the Australian Aboriginal cultures ....  but they are some of the oldest surviving cultures in history .  Why not ?   ( Hint , they also never developed 'livestock' , 'beasts of burden' or slavery .  I assume one leads to the other . )

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

If you look at a wheel while it is spinning and look at the very centre, the very centre is still. It is the stillness within the movement. 

 

nah ... its rotating  and also moving along the path of the wheel rim , if the wheel  ......   grounded  

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I think this is a part of the power of the crucifixion, although this is just my hypothesis...

 

I've been tortured myself, it was extremely difficult to stay calm within the intensity of the experience... 

 

 

 

Hmmm .. depending on what you call 'torture' , that might be valid .  You used the term before in a way I didnt like .... I ignored it . My reaction was ' What would HE know about it ! "  I think this as I have worked with refugee ex-torture victims .... in one case  a woman showed me the missing parts of her body, little bits they cut off or out each day .....

 

 

.  I hope you never experienced anything like that . But I also hope you dont use the term in an unwarranted fashion .

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

Finally!!! @Nungali, brilliant comments. So much to unpack that’s relevant to the original question… I'll get back to you asap. You won’t be sorry. 
 

 

Edited Wednesday at 01:57 PM by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I know you asked BES this but I am going to jump in and hope I dont land on her toes .

 

First , any 'old pagan ways '  is a tricky term . let's forget that  for the moment .  people first started learning about this  through necessity , mostly food gathering and medicines - via the 'doctrine of signatures'  qualified by trial and error . That developed as 'civilization' developed . It arose in the major centers of development  and in doctrines and writings of  Zoroastrians, Jews, Greek philosophers  and pre-Greek Egytptians  (and some others ) this got synthesized in the 'Alexandrian Synthesis '   ( they where very serious about this, back then any ship that came into Alexandria would have texts seized, copied in the library and returned - many complained that they got the copies back and not their originals ).

 

Alexandria declined ,  the library burned more than once .  The tradition ( now 'Hermetics' ) moved to Harran in Syria  ( a VERY interesting place , look it up )

Very interesting I agree with you. Now this system of approach would be a competing faction for me, as a sensible alternative to Christianity. As the system existed so long perhaps it could have done well, but would it have been able to scale up and upsurp the savagery of the time without being eliminated by it? It sounds like they were lucky to have got away with continuing practices when the Muslims arrived...

 

By the looks of things we could have been very well developed and mature as a people had we continued in this way, and had the rest of the world been ready for these sacred attitudes and approaches, to have been assimilated into normal life. I personally believe this to have been way beyond the maturity of the people at the time, almost anywhere on the planet, esp when we are talking about the spread of Christianity (those places)

 

Moon and cycles is one thing. The communications and literature that springs from such alignments becomes another story though. (as we are about to get into) One that is fitting for the masses? 

 

Perhaps Egypt historically could have handled it, from what I understand though this type of information was protected and guarded in secrecy and was an entirely different way of life incompatible for most of the regular folk. It was protected by , Priest scribes and initiates... and Pharoahs.

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. The we had the rise of Islam , they came to Harran and found a mass of people .... to many to 'put to the sword' and besides, they didnt want to convert .  If they could be accepted , problem solved ... and imagine the jizra ! (tax on being accepted as a non Moslem ).

They were lucky...

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They claimed to be Sabians , showed their Hermetic texts  as 'sacred Book' and claimed Hermes  ( as in 'hermetic ' .... Hermes - Mercury - Thoth -  Tjahuti , going backwards to the Egyptian version)  as their prophet .  To cement that the Islamic view flexed to agree as Mohamed does make reference to unnamed prophets before him . They where adopted into the fold  and it was soon realized they held knowledge of medicine , astronomy , mathematics, etc  and that was adopted. Not long after that Islam culture bloomed into a 'Golden Age ' .  meanwhile the Greeks and Jews where developing their contributions.

Makes sense

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The Islamics had some input in tying a lot of it together  and wrote treatises  , many  about the things  you mentioned above . These translated into Europe  via  Neo-Platonists and  others like  Cornelius Agrippa , (see 'Three Books of Occult Philosophy ' )  where a lot of these relationships are listed .

hmmm, I find this part haphazard irresponsible and dangerous. Personally. Knowledge is Power, but that is neutral, put Knowledge to use and it is true power. The heavier the knowledge, the heavier the sword of responsibility that comes with it, and the heavier the gravity of the situation to pull one upon his own sword (doubt, hesitation, fear, incorrect calcualtions, forgetfulness, unwanted attention of malevolent forces).

Some may even say that was the purpose. Of making this secret knowledge, much of which requires so much accuracy and relies so heavily on precision, mental acuity and absolute confidence to ensure its proper operation and a safe passage for the user possible... making it available so society falls on its own sword in a way, makes it secret, rise to the top and further dumb down the masses, both as a fail safe, and a way to protect corporate interests etc ) 

 

Knowledge like this is great, but for regular folk? throw fear and desire into the mix and most people would run into problems with this [especially as most of it is available these days in free downloads]. Unless we don't believe in spiritual forces beyond this realm, good, evil, benevolent. In which case they would probably be fine,, for a while at least... 

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Now that became THE science of the time  and the background behind things like the current then evolving Freemasonic movement . ( That increased again in Victorian times when many did the 'World Tour' and bought back new ideas and philosophies resulting in things like 'Egyptian Freemasonry' and others 'unregulated ' or 'spurious' forms of FM ).

Ok so now we come to a bit of a crunch point,, The Church was set up as more of a power play, it was more about politicking for the people from what I understand, pressure from the masses too. The Church as heavily criticised in this thread was more an invention of the rulers... Those that had access to these secrets proper. 

From what I understand the Church confiscated much information that was previously esoteric, and made it hidden. hmm, so the people that set up and run the Church by and large were of this rulership, eliteship. They used Jesus as a Mascot ,,and then all the silly rules of paying for heaven, giving land and money to church etc came in. 

 

Books that were not going to fit, the Apocrypha, Enoch, Gospal of Thomas were not included. My younger self hated this, as an adult though I understand why this was done. Its quite obvious really, as obvious as the need for parents to discipline kids, not the other way round and not letting children play with matches...

 

Returning to the Occult for a minute. Is it safe to say that it was more a Freemason project to spread the church, and an evolution of the "fallen" Roman Empire? Is it safe to say that in fact The Esoteric Knowledge of old (and insane building knowledge) was being used to guide the next phases for its own good, eg Conquering America, yes with Jesus as the Mascot.

 

Doesn't get much more ironic from my viewpoint. The Jews could have just saved Jesus and insisted he be released, forced him into recovery and he never would have been known. The Roman Empire could have just truly disappeared instead of merging into the Roman Catholic Church and we wouldn't have the story of Jesus plastered every where, in crosses, in homes,

 

Gladly all of that corruption happened in the name of Jesus, because Now, the "true original message and intention" is in the hearts and minds of so many people. Its Ironic that all these power plays made this possible. [I persoanlly believe Jesus pre empted this and totally Keyser Söze-aid everyone)

 

Power plays of the Church, with all its mathematics hard baked into its less than cylindrical structures and 3d statues, born out of this powerful and devastatingly effective (and I would argue hard to control and dangerous) elaborate system of approach left over and regrown from the scraps preserved by a great survivor of Atlantis, Thoth IMHO   

 

So you see if you look at the church for what it was and is, you are only battling with yourself. And your own wisdom gleaned on this great path you tread upon. And I mean that sincerely, if you have managed to survive being a student of these arts and are open about it I'd say you are but a few. Genuine, living to tell the tale. Its admirable... I'd love to know more about your journey to be honest.

 

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In Europe it was blended with the Christian outlook - which was very different to that of today , it was underpinned by neo-Platonism , the 'hermetic current' and the  world view of the time .

ok

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Then came various other developments that created the scientific revolution and the world view changed , so what had been tied to the previous one  (  the Neo-Platonic / hermetic current ) got thrown out with the bathwater . 

Or the powerful Hermetic Current was largely just hidden and controlled, tamed and navigating forces that were harnessed by the Pharoahs,, etc. Still guiding Mankind under the guise of "peace, love and charity" throughout the last 1600 years under the banner of Christ..

(hopefully it all backfires eventually. I'm pretty sure Jesus knew this would happen and if he could create a big enough bang, the power hungry would jump on his story eventually and use it as part of the mask that is so important whilst directing and programming the masses, ushering their friends into positions of power once they have enough dirt engineered on them to keep them compliant, as the church has done predictable really when you think about it..)  

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( See The Origins of Modern Science  by Herbert Butterfield , even if only the first few chapters , it is CRUCIAL in understanding all this , and how we- ' collective modern culture ;'western' -  'fell' from a tripartite understanding to a dualistic one - in the overall mental paradigm ) .  There is a free pdf of it online  .

Yes, I'm looking thankyou. It looks like he unearthed some truths of the time. Information ie theology , like this was taken from the public more and more. I'm not surprised, divide and conquer right? Easy to compartmentalise people and a lot of money in pursuing science, developing additives, drugs, chemicals etc, big business (who were the champions at the time? Bacon, Priestly, Newton, Franklin?). Not much money in theology. I remember reading back when I was 18 in year 2000, In a book, Scientists being referred to as "Glorified Accident Investigators" that made me smile.

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The came the revival of magick where the 'holistic'  view returned , along with a development of hermetic kabbalah . 

Yep, very powerful very dangerous, secretive previously largely orally transmitted Kabbalah, where the Tarot lives, and DAATH. Only suitable for Mature people selected by elders, due to the powerful and dangerous nature of it... Feel free to get into why it's dangerous with me, we can pick it apart together of you like... This is a good place to do it. (But you are not going to like my answer, I think you already know it to be fair)

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Alongside that developments in Freemasonry split off and developed certain traditions that eventually evolved into some of the occult and initiation  schools of the west .

When they were not busy building Churches and making long term preparations for World Fairs...

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Eg. one of the biggest international ones of today is  Ordo Templi Orientis , whose roots come from 'The Rites of Mephas and Mizraim , 'spurious' Egyptian Freemasonry ' .

Great if you are in it and sensible, not so great that kids can get hold off it and just print it out at their mates house, at home or in the local library. Is nothing sacred?

 

Further more, one of the reasons why I prefer this simplistic approach of Christianity to the world of Esoteric Thought which we are touching on here is because it so damn hard to do properly , let alone teach, people are too irresponsible for this in our modern world (unfortunately) 

 

Furthermore - Specifically when it comes to teaching kids though its just likely to backfire. Children's brains are developing, they are naturally Narcs to the point of almost pathological npd acting out until 7 years old or so.. Exposing children to information of intention and operation of the will, could be really dangerous for those closest.. yeah sure we all have atomic shields, and levels of spiritual protection, automatically and through our ignorance, to some degree, but is it really something you think the majority should be playing with...

 

Think Tiger and Dragon in Feng Shui, now that's a pretty cool titbit and teaching aid to share with kids. But I would share striking arts for example... 

 

If I could design a utopia I'd be right there with you. But I have to look at the world for what it is, and history as it unfolded, you know? 

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I am not sure where one would draw the 'pagan' line in all  this ?

Simplicity becomes complexity and the esoteric became the occult. As I said earlier, the ways of olden times are not really lost, they are still with us in every cell of our being. In time and the real world though they have had to take many forms for many reasons, mostly hidden sadly. But that is what we have to work with, the leylines are still there and probably have good stacked on top of evil and evil stacked on top of good many more times that we would ever really know....

 

Mostly the powerful supressing Paganism, perverting the course of power,  lies, trickery, as always and using the neutral knowledge, projecting its darker sides (effects) on the world as they have always done... Using Jesus though as the Mascot was always going to backfire eventually. (Come on it's pretty obvious, it's brilliant really, the REAL INTENDED MESSAGE OF THIS MYSTIC would always endure this way, such a hardcore plan he had, whether fully intended or not)

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And that 'magical technology' was incorporated into the  Mass ; the use of special colors for certain rites, different vestments , incenses (here the incense of the 'God' Jesus is considered tripartite;  the three gifts of the  three wise men  (supposed Magi  / Zoroastrians    )  .. also 'sacraments' can be seen as religious equivalents to the different stages of initiation , especially  with the basic ones , which are based on birth,  life and death  ( its even the same in the Aboriginal initiation traditions here and other places  ) ; baptism , confirmation, last rites .

Yep I wanted to stay away from all of this. For a long time I thought it highly unfair that the church kept on calling on the spirit of Jesus (excuse the english spelling) and wouldn't just let his spirit rest. Through Experience now my opinions on this have changed, (happy to discuss at some point in part at least) and entirely new areas of understanding opened up. I.E. The Trinity as an operational formula for the heart...

 

I know the Trinity started as a Human Idea and has largely been promoted in a Gospal as a Transliteration Addage that was falsely added to the Bible by Erasmus (people invented a greek version of the passge that didnt exist and tricked him into translating it to Latin that later became standard in King James, its since been taken out in newer editions). None the less the Trinity to me is a concentration formula and as such makes perfect sense (to me)

if interested in my view on it, rewind the post. I wrote about it here earlier on...

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So ....  " understandings names, cycles colors, paths… were they not kinda integrated into mystery schools and secret societies over the years are preserved as parts of magical rituals and rites."    Yes, 'kinda' .  and you will find a lot of that in Agrippa .

 

Things are classified as 'in a similar vibration '  thats how we get the modern idea that a particular astrological sign for a person gives their 'favorite'   gem ... or the one 'best' for them .   Thats why the altar of Venus might be based on a green  color scheme , require a certain incense , a certain oration, etc .   I had to learn a lot of that to pass examinations  (in a mystery school ) .

I'm totally down with this. I think if Good can finally take a hold in the world and finally Check Mate the insidious plan of the super Elite that always seem to have had an answer to everything, I believe we stand a chance of developing and supplanting these ancient technologies (and various understandings and applications of vibration and frequency) that were hidden from us.. 

 

[I think Jesus had a firm grip of this understanding of vibration and frequency, hence the resurrection, physical, astral, or both]

 

Remember not only the wheel is moving on the edges, along the ground it is travelling, but the earth is hurtling through space at an astonishing speed due to its rotation, its orbit around the Sun, and its movement as larger solar system through the galaxy, hell maybe even the whole universe is shaking,

 

yet there is still stillness in all that movement... LONG LIVE TAOISM!!! 

 

Faith is a rare undertaking, perhaps just as rare even as the bullet wizzing past Trumps head , perhaps we as humanity have found a powerful in the stillness and truth of our being, and are in the rare position where our collective consciousness is at a tipping point and is no longer trapped in the hypnotic grid set out by the world powers/media for so long,, and the modern bs wars that kept resetting us before we could get back to the... TRUTH ...

 

The prince of peace could lead us to that, as simplistic as it all may seem as a magician, it is a supreme formula for humans to live together... treat others as you wish to be treated. Jesuses few simple kernals are absolute mustard. (please feel free to contest them)

 

 

 

Quote

the modern treatise on it  would be

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/777/index

I'd need a shot of heroin before I downloaded that  It's wonderful stuff I'm sure but a bit too potent for me.

Perhaps One Day...

Edited Wednesday at 12:19 PM by Thrice Daily

[blue eyed snake]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

Alexandria declined ,  the library burned more than once .  The tradition ( now 'Hermetics' ) moved to Harran in Syria  ( a VERY interesting place , look it up ) . The we had the rise of Islam , they came to Harran and found a mass of people .... to many to 'put to the sword' and besides, they didnt want to convert .  If they could be accepted , problem solved ... and imagine the jizra ! (tax on being accepted as a non Moslem ). They claimed to be Sabians , showed their Hermetic texts  as 'sacred Book' and claimed Hermes  ( as in 'hermetic ' .... Hermes - Mercury - Thoth -  Tjahuti , going backwards to the Egyptian version)  as their prophet .  To cement that the Islamic view flexed to agree as Mohamed does make reference to unnamed prophets before him . They where adopted into the fold  and it was soon realized they held knowledge of medicine , astronomy , mathematics, etc  and that was adopted. Not long after that Islam culture bloomed into a 'Golden Age ' .  meanwhile the Greeks and Jews where developing their contributions .

 

that's interesting, have wondered about that sudden bloom of islamic science

 

whole post interesting, thanks

 

[心神 ~]

 

Some thoughts by Den Poitras on the concept of parthenogenesis.

 

His book, Parthenogenesis: Women's Long-Lost Ability to Self-Conceive.

 

[blue eyed snake]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

By the way ( and I have debated this successfully , mostly because others are so unfamiliar with my specialties ' and the actual 'goings on' and what is behind them - like intent ) there was never any 'sacrificial culture' within the Australian Aboriginal cultures ....  but they are some of the oldest surviving cultures in history .  Why not ?   ( Hint , they also never developed 'livestock' , 'beasts of burden' or slavery .  I assume one leads to the other . )

 

like the San (the bushmen from the Kalahari)

 

(and although i know they had beasts of burden and sacrificed them. I am thinking of the Saami too.

They did sort of domesticate the reindeer, without the reindeer their environment was unfit to live in I think. But they kept following the migration routes and lived as nomads, so they sort of followed the animals in their natural way of living instead of forcing domestication on farms or the like.)

Edited Wednesday at 01:15 PM by blue eyed snake
typo

[NaturaNaturans]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I know you asked BES this but I am going to jump in and hope I dont land on her toes .

 

First , any 'old pagan ways '  is a tricky term . let's forget that  for the moment .  people first started learning about this  through necessity , mostly food gathering and medicines - via the 'doctrine of signatures'  qualified by trial and error . That developed as 'civilization' developed . It arose in the major centers of development  and in doctrines and writings of  Zoroastrians, Jews, Greek philosophers  and pre-Greek Egytptians  (and some others ) this got synthesized in the 'Alexandrian Synthesis '   ( they where very serious about this, back then any ship that came into Alexandria would have texts seized, copied in the library and returned - many complained that they got the copies back and not their originals ).

 

Alexandria declined ,  the library burned more than once .  The tradition ( now 'Hermetics' ) moved to Harran in Syria  ( a VERY interesting place , look it up ) . The we had the rise of Islam , they came to Harran and found a mass of people .... to many to 'put to the sword' and besides, they didnt want to convert .  If they could be accepted , problem solved ... and imagine the jizra ! (tax on being accepted as a non Moslem ). They claimed to be Sabians , showed their Hermetic texts  as 'sacred Book' and claimed Hermes  ( as in 'hermetic ' .... Hermes - Mercury - Thoth -  Tjahuti , going backwards to the Egyptian version)  as their prophet .  To cement that the Islamic view flexed to agree as Mohamed does make reference to unnamed prophets before him . They where adopted into the fold  and it was soon realized they held knowledge of medicine , astronomy , mathematics, etc  and that was adopted. Not long after that Islam culture bloomed into a 'Golden Age ' .  meanwhile the Greeks and Jews where developing their contributions .

 

The Islamics had some input in tying a lot of it together  and wrote treatises  , many  about the things  you mentioned above . These translated into Europe  via  Neo-Platonists and  others like  Cornelius Agrippa , (see 'Three Books of Occult Philosophy ' )  where a lot of these relationships are listed .

 

Now that became THE science of the time  and the background behind things like the current then evolving Freemasonic movement . ( That increased again in Victorian times when many did the 'World Tour' and bought back new ideas and philosophies resulting in things like 'Egyptian Freemasonry' and others 'unregulated ' or 'spurious' forms of FM ). In Europe it was blended with the Christian outlook - which was very different to that of today , it was underpinned by neo-Platonism , the 'hermetic current' and the  world view of the time .

 

Then came various other developments that created the scientific revolution and the world view changed , so what had been tied to the previous one  (  the Neo-Platonic / hermetic current ) got thrown out with the bathwater .  ( See The Origins of Modern Science  by Herbert Butterfield , even if only the first few chapters , it is CRUCIAL in understanding all this , and how we- ' collective modern culture ;'western' -  'fell' from a tripartite understanding to a dualistic one - in the overall mental paradigm ) .  There is a free pdf of it online  .

 

The came the revival of magick where the 'holistic'  view returned , along with a development of hermetic kabbalah .  Alongside that developments in Freemasonry split off and developed certain traditions that eventually evolved into some of the occult and initiation  schools of the west . Eg. one of the biggest international ones of today is  Ordo Templi Orientis , whose roots come from 'The Rites of Mephas and Mizraim , 'spurious' Egyptian Freemasonry ' .

 

I am not sure where one would draw the 'pagan' line in all  this ?

 

And that 'magical technology' was incorporated into the  Mass ; the use of special colors for certain rites, different vestments , incenses (here the incense of the 'God' Jesus is considered tripartite;  the three gifts of the  three wise men  (supposed Magi  / Zoroastrians    )  .. also 'sacraments' can be seen as religious equivalents to the different stages of initiation , especially  with the basic ones , which are based on birth,  life and death  ( its even the same in the Aboriginal initiation traditions here and other places  ) ; baptism , confirmation, last rites .

 

So ....  " understandings names, cycles colors, paths… were they not kinda integrated into mystery schools and secret societies over the years are preserved as parts of magical rituals and rites."    Yes, 'kinda' .  and you will find a lot of that in Agrippa .

 

Things are classified as 'in a similar vibration '  thats how we get the modern idea that a particular astrological sign for a person gives their 'favorite'   gem ... or the one 'best' for them .   Thats why the altar of Venus might be based on a green  color scheme , require a certain incense , a certain oration, etc .   I had to learn a lot of that to pass examinations  (in a mystery school ) .

 

the modern treatise on it  would be

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/777/index

 

On colour… I heard something about the green, white and orange in the persian (and indian) flag had some esoteric meaning, cant remember tho?

 

And do you know anything about the colours of my own as well as many other western flags, namley, red, white and blue?

[NaturaNaturans]

48 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

like the San (the bushmen from the Kalahari)

 

(and although i know they had beasts of burden and sacrificed them. I am thinking of the Saami too.

They did sort of domesticate the reindeer, without the reindeer their environment was unfit to live in I think. But they kept following the migration routes and lived as nomads, so they sort of followed the animals in their natural way of living instead of forcing domestication on farms or the like.)

During the volcanic eruption on iceland somewhere in the 5th or 6th century, reffered to as fimbulvintr in norse myth, the sun didnt shine for three whole years. The population of scandinavia plumeted. Guess who came trough the catastrophy mostly in tact? The sami.

 

edit: Ødegård is a very popular last name in Norway (Like that of Arsenals captain Martin Ødegård 😁). This name has been traced to this very event. It translates to deserted farm.

Edited Wednesday at 01:32 PM by NaturaNaturans

[NaturaNaturans]

9 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

During the volcanic eruption on iceland somewhere in the 5th or 6th century, reffered to as fimbulvintr in norse myth, the sun didnt shine for three whole years. The population of scandinavia plumeted. Guess who came trough the catastrophy mostly in tact? The sami.

 

edit: Ødegård is a very popular last name in Norway (Like that of Arsenals captain Martin Ødegård 😁). This name has been traced to this very event. It translates to deserted farm.

Here you have (on of) the description of fimbulvintr (the great winter) If interrested:

 

https://magebymoonlight.com/voluspa-ragnarok/

[Thrice Daily]

@NaturaNaturans,

 

You seem pretty close to the Aboriginals . It would be awesome if walkabout was a worldwide thing. At least In theory! It would be an interesting practical test…
 

Wouldn’t fancy my chances in colder climates though 🥶 

 

Unless I was wearing suitable attire for the occasion.

Edited Wednesday at 01:49 PM by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

Hmmm .. depending on what you call 'torture' , that might be valid .  You used the term before in a way I didnt like .... I ignored it . My reaction was ' What would HE know about it ! "  I think this as I have worked with refugee ex-torture victims .... in one case  a woman showed me the missing parts of her body, little bits they cut off or out each day .....

 

 

.  I hope you never experienced anything like that . But I also hope you dont use the term in an unwarranted fashion .

 

 

I got tied up with zip ties too tightly then for around 8 hours and jousted but three people. I wouldn’t have guessed it would be so painful , way worse than broken bones. My thumb felt like it would explode for the entire time… but I’m glad it wasn’t chopped off even though it would perhaps be less painful.

 

I think I’d have preferred broken bones (pain wise) but I’ve not had digits chopped of so I can’t say. Probably definitely not as bad as that. Literally that level thank god didn’t happen.

 

I didn’t know being tied up wrong could result in that kind of physical pain. Mentally it was tough to take for that long but I guess it could have been worse. My thumb was totally numb for three months. 
 

It was incredibly interesting answering to your points earlier though.

 

I sincerely hope we can get into it further now I know a little more about your Esoteric background. Perhaps we can get into the nuts and bolts of it…

 

If you dare…

Edited Wednesday at 03:11 PM by Thrice Daily

[NaturaNaturans]

14 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

@NaturaNaturans,

 

You seem pretty close to the Aboriginals . It would be awesome if walkabout was a worldwide thing. At least In theory! It would be an interesting practical test…
 

Wouldn’t fancy my chances in colder climates though 🥶 

 

Unless I was wearing suitable attire for the occasion.

Me? To the aboriginal Australias? Far from it! @Nungaliis the man for that.

 

If you refer to the sami, my aunt is one. On our 18th birthday, she gave each of my cousins and me a self made «sami» blanket and knife. It is beautifull: it sybolises how with shelter and a tool/weapon you can survive anything.

[NaturaNaturans]

16 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

@NaturaNaturans,

 

You seem pretty close to the Aboriginals . It would be awesome if walkabout was a worldwide thing. At least In theory! It would be an interesting practical test…
 

Wouldn’t fancy my chances in colder climates though 🥶 

 

Unless I was wearing suitable attire for the occasion.

Well, If you dont mind me going in to genetics, non-europeans are ill suited for the scandinavian climate. They get ill due to the lack of sunlight and have a lower body temprature.

[Thrice Daily]

Oh I’m sorry yes of course, I got you mixed up for a minute. Norway correct? 
 

Just one question, do you believe in the power of Jesus in anyway, as a teacher a healer or other wise?

 

I'm curious as to your view on him as a individual , separate to the Jewish root and the church. 
 

The actual guy and the messages ?

[NaturaNaturans]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Oh I’m sorry yes of course, I got you mixed up for a minute. Norway correct? 
 

Just one question, do you believe in the power of Jesus in anyway, as a teacher a healer or other wise?

 

I'm curious as to your view on him as a individual , separate to the Jewish root and the church. 
 

The actual guy and the messages ?

Norway yes. 
 

on christ, I am conflicted. I do not think we know anything «on the actual guy.» Forgive my bluntness.

 

On the other hand, the gospel of Thomas is pure gold from stat to finish.

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

If you refer to the sami, my aunt is one. On our 18th birthday, she gave each of my cousins and me a self made «sami» blanket and knife. It is beautifull: it sybolises how with shelter and a tool/weapon you can survive anything.

 

My  eldest sister has been to the Sami when she was a young woman, in the sixties that was. I was a very small kid at the time. She was gone so long, I missed her, many months but she did not winter with them.

When she came back she had changed in an intriguing and nice way. She took that change with her through her life which is now nearing the end.

 

I still have a knife that was gifted to me later when i was big enough for it.

[心神 ~]

 

22 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

The Jews basically killed Jesus didn't they?

 

 

Did they? Which ones?