Christianity

[Thrice Daily]

They helped didn’t they? they helped make him more famous more quickly, the rabbis refuting his teachings and having no inclination to accept him as the messiah. 
[what is understandable but so strangely ironic given the outcome]
 

Then when it was suggested Jesus should be released by Pilate , or would they prefer Barrabas to be released. The Jewish mob preferred Barrabas.

 

That was a pretty serious nail in the coffin.

That would have been doing something very interesting in the hearts of those Jewish people at the time I venture to bet. I can’t imagine how people would have felt amidst all of this. 

Also I’d say they continue to kill Jesus by way of defamation in their scriptures and teachings about him. (Understandably at the time but so much time has passed now, you’d think it would be deemed legit)  
 

This is a pretty good article should you want to get into the nitty gritty of it… in terms of Gospal accounts of the Jews being complicit…

 

https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/sites/partners/cbaa_seminar/wilson.htm

 

IMHO they continue to kill him in a way by way of slander and none acceptance of him as the fulfilment of themselves. It’s understandable, I get it. Jesus teachings were so radically different from the Jews he came from.

 

Our teachings would be radically different to if we returned to our people that never really deviated from their local ways (or perhaps even travelled) Radical Man!

 

If we ourselves lived in Egypt, India Tibet soaking up their teachings like a brilliant sponge from such an early age, already blessed with a brilliant mind.

 

Thats what I firmly believe, he did on his Travels, that he became a master and saint amongst saints, or at least a really sound Buddhist [maybe more] (insert your holy person title). 
 

There were probably people trying to take him out (assassinate him) even on the way back imho, particularly around the time he visited the Zoroastrians. 

I’m sure he would have rubbed quite a few leaders and teachers up the wrong way over the years, maybe it was all peaceful for him though. Who knows for sure.

It must have been a serious adventure he was on before returning home, if indeed that was the case (and he didn’t just stay with his Mom the entire time like some suggest)…

 

Check this video if you are interested in the possible accounts of times between age 12 to 30 or so as St Issa, it’s great if you haven’t seen it…

 

 

There are a few videos now, this one was nicely done though I think. It’s the only one I felt I had to watch and it was nicely put together as a video. It’s quite old but respectfully done with nice editing and a sincere voice.

Edited October 16 by Thrice Daily

[Thrice Daily]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

On the other hand, the gospel of Thomas is pure gold from stat to finish.

Can you share your favourite line from this Gospel, or two if one is too difficult to pick?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

7 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Can you share your favourite line from this Gospel, or two if one is too difficult to pick?

Verse 3

[Thrice Daily]

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
 

Amen to that 🙏 

 

Reminds me of a line I once wrote.

 

“Renounce property and you will receive inner wealth”

 

Solid advice isn’t it “Know Thyself” what a nutshell.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

4 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

My  eldest sister has been to the Sami when she was a young woman, in the sixties that was. I was a very small kid at the time. She was gone so long, I missed her, many months but she did not winter with them.

When she came back she had changed in an intriguing and nice way. She took that change with her through her life which is now nearing the end.

 

I still have a knife that was gifted to me later when i was big enough for it.

 

[Nungali]

" STAY INSIDE THIS HOLY REALITY  "

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

Nice flourish. I was ready for a massive rebuttal then. What a lovely video though. Really takes you back to incarnation time doesn’t it? Felt like I was back in the Womb again, Great detail. Cosmic Love Man 💜 

[Apech]

This is a long thread now with some very long posts.  I have scanned most of it but not read in detail - just because of time constraints and my weak powers of concentration (sometimes).

 

A couple of things.  It was the Romans who crucified Jesus - and crucifixion was their choice of punishment usually for slaves.  So I don't blame them Jews!  He was after all Jewish himself.

 

Also long before the Christians tried to wipe out pagans - the Romans were already wiping out pagans.  They destroyed the culture of the Celts in France and invaded Britain and destroyed the sacred groves in Anglesey where the Druids trained.   Later of course the Romans became Christians - hence the RC church.  So it is possible that the 'attitude' of wiping out other religions was more Roman than Christian.

 

Also - and I don't know if it makes much difference but much of the witch trials were carried out by Protestants in the 16/17 th Centuries and not so much the Roman Catholics.  In fact the approach of the Catholic church was mostly assimilation.  Old pagan sites used for specific purposes were just renamed for a Christian saint and carried on much the same.  There is much evidence of this in Egypt - where it is more the case that the traditional Egyptian religion had run out of steam.

 

What I was really asking in the OP was why particularly Christianity makes a huge appeal to belief right up front so to speak.  Whereas Buddhism for instance tries to convince you through reasoning and so on.

 

Anyway just some thoughts. 

 

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Finally!!! @Nungali, brilliant comments.

 

 

Finally    brilliant  ?   ?  ?  

 

 

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

On colour… I heard something about the green, white and orange in the persian (and indian) flag had some esoteric meaning, cant remember tho?

 

And do you know anything about the colours of my own as well as many other western flags, namley, red, white and blue?

 

Thde Indian flag and the persian flag would have color associations within THEIR system .. there isnt just one system ... I was working with the hermetic system . Eg  modern jewelers will tell you what stone suits your by your birthdate , but that will be different to the system that says , for example , if you are a Cancer your gem is moonstone or pearl . One is the 'jewelers' system , it probably originated from the other ,  and then shanged , but now its different .

 

The red on the Aboriginal flag is for red earth ... the earth . But other symbols might include blood , courage, life vigor, etc . 

 

Thats why , for example I had to learn a LOT of kabbalah and many of these associations . By the time you get to a higher degree of teaching  ( eg 4th deg ) the 'knowledge lectures' (latter part of initiation ceremony )  are so 'packed' you would not have a chance of comprehension without this 'condensed language ' .    Think of trying to explain carpentry without the names of tools or an understanding of process  . When the speaker uses a term , its equivalence across a whole range of things comes to mind  and expands meaning , as well as focuses it .  Generally it consisted of  about 14  ranges  and 33 comparisons ... so near 500 associations to learn  ( there is a trick to it    ) 

 

The tables appear in the reference I gave to 777 ... and no , no heroin is required    (   . It also helps to develop a mind that can work on a few levels at the same time ... quick ( snaps fingers ) ... a Mercurial trait .

 

So really, no symbolism is valid across the board ... it has to drilled in to make the associations  . There are some exceptions  .... I used to do that with teaching year 10 ...

Put up a big bit of white paper across the board and  splat red paint on it ... and the kids go   "   Errrrr ... arrrgh ....  Oh! "

 

take it down and put up another  and run a big brush with watery dripping blue  and they;   " Ahhhhhhhhhhh ... "   

 

Me (to them )  "What just happened "  ? 

 

 

.

Edited October 16 by Nungali

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I got tied up with zip ties too tightly then for around 8 hours and jousted but three people. I wouldn’t have guessed it would be so painful , way worse than broken bones. My thumb felt like it would explode for the entire time… but I’m glad it wasn’t chopped off even though it would perhaps be less painful.

 

I think I’d have preferred broken bones (pain wise) but I’ve not had digits chopped of so I can’t say. Probably definitely not as bad as that. Literally that level thank god didn’t happen.

 

I didn’t know being tied up wrong could result in that kind of physical pain. Mentally it was tough to take for that long but I guess it could have been worse. My thumb was totally numb for three months. 
 

It was incredibly interesting answering to your points earlier though.

 

I sincerely hope we can get into it further now I know a little more about your Esoteric background. Perhaps we can get into the nuts and bolts of it…

 

If you dare…

 

Thanks for the explanation .  Sounds bad .   If your beliefs help you ... good for you !  

 

Back in the 80s when I was with the Baha'is  they where trying to explain to a couple  ( that had asked about it )  why "if there is a God he allows such bad suffering "? They where not impressed ; an elderly couple ... I sensed something and interrupted " I think you might have  a very good reason for asking that question ... have you been exposed to bad suffering and pain ?"   She looked at him and he nodded , then she lifted up her sleeve cuff and showed us her tattooed concentration camp number inside her wrist .

 

That shut them up ....   sometimes we need to understand others experiences to understand them better ... and not feed them platitudes !

 

If I dare  ...   .....  you're cute    .

 

There was a lot in there , what do you want me to address first ?

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Me? To the aboriginal Australias? Far from it! @Nungaliis the man for that.

 

If you refer to the sami, my aunt is one. On our 18th birthday, she gave each of my cousins and me a self made «sami» blanket and knife. It is beautifull: it sybolises how with shelter and a tool/weapon you can survive anything.

 

What a cool auntie  !  

 

have you ever watched   'Hunt for the Wilderpeople ?"   One of those great NZ films .  I like this part ;

 

Naughty 'tough' juvenile  (you know how they are ! ) gets busted , goes into 'care' and gets billeted out to a family ... he is SOOO unimpressed and bored with country life, its soooo lame and unawesome  until 'new mum'  gives him a 'present'  a HUGE deadly looking hunting knife ... AWESOME !  this is more like it !  "You will need that ." New Mum tells him .  Then ,  even better  ... he learns to shoot !    ... but is he ready for  country life ? 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Nice flourish. I was ready for a massive rebuttal then. What a lovely video though. Really takes you back to incarnation time doesn’t it? Felt like I was back in the Womb again, Great detail. Cosmic Love Man 💜 

 

No Man .... I'll be saying right away from your butt

 

Spoiler

yeah ... I have a terrible sense of humor    

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

This is a long thread now with some very long posts.  I have scanned most of it but not read in detail - just because of time constraints and my weak powers of concentration (sometimes).

 

A couple of things.  It was the Romans who crucified Jesus - and crucifixion was their choice of punishment usually for slaves.  So I don't blame them Jews!  He was after all Jewish himself.

 

Also long before the Christians tried to wipe out pagans - the Romans were already wiping out pagans.  They destroyed the culture of the Celts in France and invaded Britain and destroyed the sacred groves in Anglesey where the Druids trained.   Later of course the Romans became Christians - hence the RC church.  So it is possible that the 'attitude' of wiping out other religions was more Roman than Christian.

 

Also - and I don't know if it makes much difference but much of the witch trials were carried out by Protestants in the 16/17 th Centuries and not so much the Roman Catholics.  In fact the approach of the Catholic church was mostly assimilation.  Old pagan sites used for specific purposes were just renamed for a Christian saint and carried on much the same.  There is much evidence of this in Egypt - where it is more the case that the traditional Egyptian religion had run out of steam.

 

What I was really asking in the OP was why particularly Christianity makes a huge appeal to belief right up front so to speak.  Whereas Buddhism for instance tries to convince you through reasoning and so on.

 

Anyway just some thoughts. 

 

 

 

IMO because Christian belief is required as its so irrational and illogical , whereas Buddhism is sensible , rational and logical, no need for  Buddhists to opt out by declaring " Well, in answer to your question ... Buddha moves in mysterious ways, just believe , my Son ... believe ... and remember , logic and rationale are tools of the Devil ! "

 

I have actually been told the bolded bit while trying to debate with a Christian co-worker  (of course Buddha was replaced by God )... he got stumped by a few of my questions and went to his pastor  and this was the response he was instructed to give me .

 

I have had very reasonable and enlightening  discussions with Buddhists monks and lamas .

 

... and I am sorry ,... but they seem a lot better educated as well .

[Thrice Daily]

Cool. There are so many directions we could go with this now…

 

God, it’s hard to decide where to dip in. Fantastic… thanks for chiming in @Apech I’m hoping I don’t goof off too much here with this one and get the message across to some degree.

 

Its such a personal thing isn’t it? Understanding within a conversation , within disseminating philosophy, and within simple Faith… They all so different when opinions clash at least.

 

Personal and so many differences… interpretations..

 

Its tricky. I purposely kept away from Worship, personally I thought for years it was too much of a dumbing down of what I already knew about, and the Jesus thing could just be a big trick an big hoax and foolish to make an argument for.

 

Faith and Worship smacked me in the face and was Surprising (maybe at some time I’ll share some story) 

 

There was a simplicity I think that has to be there for worship, it didn’t know it could be so simple, until it was. To throw a person into the mix for worship ie Jesus, the mechanism that makes it possible (is almost beyond simplistic) it’s strange and a real abstraction of life and death . In a moment of change [hard to put in words in conversation, with somebody who’s not shared the experience].
 

I couldn’t imagine there being Worship as such for me in Buddhism or Taoism. I could have respect for teachers and teachings but couldn’t imagine a level of actual whole hearted worship with ancestors or deities  [not to say I’d disrespect people that did though].

 

Re Christianity… imo Jesus symbolises such a cutting off from the old and the beginning of the new , for me and so many others that took the leap of faith,, I think it’s hard for others to see…

 

And people that try and talk about it run into problems fast with educated folk.

 

A little like what you are saying with the Kabbalah , basically “you only know what you know…”

 

Anyways,, it’s highly personal, but obvious to me how this leap of Faith worked now as it has become a living experience, still if I had to put it into words it would be like this.

(Act 1)

if you watch a movie, a rich story rich plot line, lots of Color , humour , the real depth and shade of human character that just gets you lost in the moment, aspects of romance, adventure, danger excitement, all the elements you want from a movie. 
Think old vhs, it even has a warmth and a glow to it. A grain, a quality that is imprinted on the elements of the black plastic laced with metals. 
 

Now we as a lover of movies could play it in a vcr or a different vcr. The picture quality would differ, the sound quality would differ. It’s all the same but somehow different. Either way our senses are lost in the experience of the story…

 

Trying to explain Jesus for me in words is a bit like this… 

 

(Act 2)

imagine opening the tape and snipping the physical tape. Then glueing back together. That’s basically the process I think many believer go through when they realise Christ and kind of experience that for themselves…

 

Imagine you watch the movie , the sound and picture quality is fine uninterrupted. But then you blink. 
 

in that split second something happened. (Let’s just say , [take a leap of faith with me for for a minute], it was Jesus Life and death) 
 

What actually happened to the tape in reality though is it was physically cut. The tape ended. And it was stuck together to a fresh piece of tape. 
 

it’s that cut in the tape, you’d never even notice it (or…) . Can’t really explain it. Everything seems the same, but after that cut, it’s a totally different tape. 
 

you wouldn’t notice while watching the film, well maybe just a flicker.but In actuality the film went off and came back on. 

 

I think trying to explain Jesus is about as difficult as trying to explain the sliced edge of that piece of tape that’s attached to the new tape as a reality effectual in the film/movie…

 

You'll know what I mean if you ever fixed a vhs tape with a bit of sellotape. (There are various ways to do it and it all pretty much leads to the same result, some are fuzzier than others, some glitch a bit or worse, but typically the same outcome, unless the machine really chews it up)

 

Its really inconsequential while watching the film (fingers crossed). But it’s an interesting process that you’d never even guess was possible, (splicing the tape, euw sounds painful when I put it like that) … 

————————————-

A Buddhist, philosopher , scientist etc having a conversation with someone about faith and the worship from their angle would be like discussing (act 1) the movie itself, Color’s sounds plots and sub plots and all its bells and whistles..

 

the worship bit to me though is (act 2) looking at the cassette, cutting it, sticking back together, essentially “dying with Christ…” (it’s still all about the film, whilst being nothing really to do with the film, same word different meanings) 

 

they are two completely separate things to me. Film/Film , And as such, difficult to merge together in conversation with someone who hasn’t had this duel experience in life of philosophy/faith-worship.

I think becoming aware of Christ, in the mystical sense (was for me anyway) was a bit like going through that process of being spliced onto a new piece of tape. 

 

but that’s got nothing to do with the Movie in the literal sense, the Movie that’s all front of house… it’s all on the back end… at the very source of its existence, the tape itself.

 

I hope that made at least some sense… 

 

I guess some people would say, “ so what “ we have that choice in every living second to focus on whatever we like and have faith in anything, or not. (Fair enough too perhaps, each to their own)
 

Speaking to the Buddhist directly, I think the only practical bridge i’d try to build is by Asserting that “Jesus Christ has probably led more people to Buddhist outcomes in their lives (loving kindness, forgiveness, saying sorry and pacifism for example) that anybody else on the planet.”
 

At least In recent history, say last 7-10, 000 years or so.

 

Maybe the Hawaiians with their Hoponopono (I love you, I’m sorry, please forgive me - mantra) but I don’t think it spread quite like Christianity did…  

 

In closing, philosophical systems and sophisticated approaches to understanding - compared to faith-worship  are as worlds apart as 

 

The making, enjoyment and conversating about an enthralling movie and the act and experience of splicing a tape. 
 

i’m not saying the Buddhists/Taoists aren’t better at all of this than all the Christian’s combined . 
 

perhaps they can be the tape, or perhaps there is no tape at all.

 

and no such thing as better or worse that I’m sure the money duellists would argue (probably from a comfy settee in a civilised and safe community setting  )

 

I don’t know if what I just said makes things more simple or more complicated. Thoughts?

 

Truth,,, or Terminological-Inexactitude?

Edited October 17 by Thrice Daily

[blue eyed snake]

14 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

 

thank you, that touches my heart

I had all but forgotten about the Saami, but now the memories come up.

 

some months ago I had a "dream" but not a dream, it was on the verge on falling asleep

 

I was very old and thin and whitehaired, a sturdy darkhaired woman tucked me in warmly in a sledge, "no mother, you're too old and feeble to sit up, you lay down and I will tuck you in warmly so you'll make it safely to our next place. Sleepily I thought, this is strange, she talks with the voice of my mother, but she can't be, she looks like my sister but she can't be as I am so very old and they both were much older than me.

 

't was confusing but I felt very safe and cared for

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

This is a long thread now with some very long posts.  I have scanned most of it but not read in detail - just because of time constraints and my weak powers of concentration (sometimes).

 

A couple of things.  It was the Romans who crucified Jesus - and crucifixion was their choice of punishment usually for slaves.  So I don't blame them Jews!  He was after all Jewish himself.

 

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Also long before the Christians tried to wipe out pagans - the Romans were already wiping out pagans.  They destroyed the culture of the Celts in France and invaded Britain and destroyed the sacred groves in Anglesey where the Druids trained.   Later of course the Romans became Christians - hence the RC church.  So it is possible that the 'attitude' of wiping out other religions was more Roman than Christian.

 

I seem to remember that before the romans became christian they did conquer people but did not wipe out their gods? but instead those gods were assimilated ?

That the attitude to convert conquered people  started by one of their emperors taking on the new religion with only one god?

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Also - and I don't know if it makes much difference but much of the witch trials were carried out by Protestants in the 16/17 th Centuries and not so much the Roman Catholics.  In fact the approach of the Catholic church was mostly assimilation.  Old pagan sites used for specific purposes were just renamed for a Christian saint and carried on much the same.  There is much evidence of this in Egypt - where it is more the case that the traditional Egyptian religion had run out of steam.

 

yes, I knew that, also the protestant creed is even more ' constructed'  then the early christian religion was, at least, that is my opinion.

But my booklearning is not great and lately my brain is becoming more woozy.

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

What I was really asking in the OP was why particularly Christianity makes a huge appeal to belief right up front so to speak.  Whereas Buddhism for instance tries to convince you through reasoning and so on.

 

yes, I've come to think that christianity is much a constructed religion and indeed, heavily leaning on " just believe what the big book says" Where other religions have grown and changed more organically. 

also, the latest changes into protestantism have made it even more intellectual, removed from any feeling ( or feminine - yin)

 

through the centuries the big book has changed considerably and deliberately parts have been cut out. The whole reincarnation part has been cut for instance, some council decided it was not true and cut it out, yeah...

that is what I mean with constructed, the tenets of this religion are made with the brain. The heart, the feelings have more or less forgotten. Of old the gods were closeknitted to the folk, they were recognizable archetypes and slowly changed with the ways the people changed. At least that is how I see it.

 

All my life I have struggled with christians and their beliefs, of course I've met people of all creeds and always engaged with them like, okay, that's the way you see it, no problem. One of my neighbors was into sai baba, never had problems with that, neither with buddhism or hinduism. But with christians I always got into frictions and anger. So every few years I looked again and found more things I absolutely disagreed upon.

 

Imho, Jesus would not have recognized what has been made from his words, from his message. would he be alive today He would smash the whole caboodle like he did, long ago, in the temple.

 

It was nice to stumble on the Thomas gospel here on th the Daobums, as it sort of gave substancy to my thought that jesus was an enlightened guy from long ago and others ran away with his words, changed them as to be unrecognizable and founded a religion.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Anyway just some thoughts. 

 

 

 

I want to thank you for this thread as much underlying issues I had with christians have been unraveled in the last pages and now i understand my anger and it can dissolve.

 

[心神 ~]

 

@Thrice Daily

 

Yeshua Ben Miriam was an Israelite, descended from the line of David and Abraham (Matthew 1:1–17). He came to save the Twelve Tribes, and he wasn't rejected by every descendent, nor was he killed by every descendent. He was killed by people in power with vested interest in crushing a rising rebellion, politically and spiritually. 

 

Just because Pontius Pilate said, "The "Jews" made me do it," doesn't make it so. If we're presented with the actual events of what happened leading up to Jesus' crucification, Pilate (and Roman Rule) is just as culpable, if not more so, than the Rabbis who sought his "judgement" in the matter.

 

Likewise, the people were expecting a warrior Messiah that would help the them overpower the Roman rule they suffered under. There was a lot of confusion at the time with multiple individuals claiming to be the Messiah, ready to lead the people in battle. There was one such figure imprisoned at the time of Jesus' crucification. He was beloved by the people and as far as they were concerned, was making actual progress against the powers that be. Jesus is constantly presented in contrast to what was expected by the spiritual leaders and the people. When offered the choice, people demanded the freedom of the man they believed could help them secure theirs. Who can judge them for that?

 

Did the Jewish mother kill Jesus? The Jewish child? What do you mean by Jewish? Israelite? From the Tribe of Judah? The common man or the spiritual leader? Which sect? Pharisee, Rabbinite, Essene? Broadly accusing a large group of people with a diverse array beliefs and experiences of killing a single man isn't... great, especially when offered as a halfhearted question. Claims like that probably won't help people want to discuss this.

 

Who wanted Jesus dead and why? Who profited and to what extent?

 

-

 

Based on observations by political leaders at the time (taken with a grain of salt), in conjunction with the recorded sayings of Jesus (with an additional grain of salt), he was likely a member of the Judean community of Essenes.

 

Pauline Christology is at odds with and has successfully distorted and obscured the message of Jesus and said community. The myth of Paul was likely crafted by Pliny the Elder and continued on in the work of Pliny the Younger. In letters between Pliny the Younger and Emperor Trajan, Pliny seeks advice on how to properly persecute Christians in his role as statesman. Trajan's response reveals that the Christians are a threat not because they worship the wrong God or gods, but because of their refusal to make sacrifices. Trajan instructed Pliny the Younger to persecute those who refused to make sacrifices, and to pardon those who proved themselves through making sacrifices.

 

The Essenes were a community that did not offer sacrifices, Christians being an evolving branch of the community. This made them a threat to two main powers who relied on the system of sacrifice: the Romans and the Rabbinites.

 

-

 

Philo's (first account)

"They do not offer animal sacrifice, judging it more fitting to render their minds truly holy. They flee the cities and live in villages where clean air and clean social life abound. They either work in the fields or in crafts that contribute to peace. They do not hoard silver and gold and do not acquire great landholdings; procuring for themselves only what is necessary for life. Thus they live without goods and without property, not by misfortune, but out of preference. They do not make armaments of any kind. They do not keep slaves and detest slavery. They avoid wholesale and retail commerce, believing that such activity excites one to cupidity. With respect to philosophy, they dismiss logic but have an extremely high regard for virtue. They honor the Sabbath with great respect over the other days of the week. They have an internal rule which all learn, together with rules on piety, holiness, justice and the knowledge of good and bad. These they make use of in the form of triple definitions, rules regarding the love of God, the love of virtue, and the love of men. They believe God causes all good but cannot be the cause of any evil. They honor virtue by foregoing all riches, glory and pleasure. Further, they are convinced they must be modest, quiet, obedient to the rule, simple, frugal and without mirth. Their life style is communal. They have a common purse. Their salaries they deposit before them all, in the midst of them, to be put to the common employment of those who wish to make use of it. They do not neglect the sick on the pretext that they can produce nothing. With the common purse there is plenty from which to treat all illnesses. They lavish great respect on the elderly. With them they are very generous and surround them with a thousand attentions. They practice virtue like a gymnastic exercise, seeing the accomplishment of praiseworthy deeds as the means by which a man ensures absolute freedom for himself."

 

Philo (second account)

"The Essenes live in a number of towns in Judea, and also in many villages and in large groups. They do not enlist by race, but by volunteers who have a zeal for righteousness and an ardent love of men. For this reason there are no young children among the Essenes. Not even adolescents or young men. Instead they are men of old or ripe years who have learned how to control their bodily passions. They possess nothing of their own, not house, field, slave nor flocks, nor anything which feeds and procures wealth. They live together in brotherhoods, and eat in common together. Everything they do is for the common good of the group. They work at many different jobs and attack their work with amazing zeal and dedication, working from before sunrise to almost sunset without complaint, but in obvious exhilaration. Their exercise is their work. Indeed, they believe their own training to be more agreeable to body and soul, and more lasting, than athletic games, since their exercises remain fitted to their age, even when the body no longer possesses its full strength. They are farmers and shepherds and beekeepers and craftsmen in diverse trades. They share the same way of life, the same table, even the same tastes; all of them loving frugality and hating luxury as a plague for both body and soul. Not only do they share a common table, but common clothes as well. What belongs to one belongs to all. Available to all of them are thick coats for winter and inexpensive light tunics for summer. Seeing it as an obstacle to communal life, they have banned marriage.

 

Flavius Josephus

The first reference to the Essenes comes from Josephus, writing about the death of Antigonus in 103 B.C. Josephus relates that the Essenes had an uncanny ability to successfully predict future events, and that the death of Antigonus at the hands of his brother, Aristobulus, ruler of Judea, had been accurately forecast by an Essene named Judas. Josephus states that 'Judas was an Essene born and bred, indicating that he had been born into the movement at least a few decades earlier. On this occasion, according to Josephus, Judas was sitting in or near the Jerusalem temple with a number or his pupils, showing that he was an Essene teacher of the Law and that he was able to speak his views apparently quite freely in Jerusalem at the end of the second century B.C.

 

"The sect of the Essenes maintain that Fate governs all things, and that nothing can befall man contrary to its determination and will. These men live the same kind of life which among the Greeks has been ordered by Pythagoras."

"The Essenes are Jews by race, but are more closely united among themselves by mutual affection, and by their efforts to cultivate a particularly saintly life. They renounce pleasure as an evil, and regard continence and resistance to passions as a virtue. They disdain marriage for themselves, being content to adopt the children of others at a tender age in order to instruct them. They do not abolish marriage, but are convinced women are all licentious and incapable of fidelity to one man. They despise riches. When they enter the sect, they must surrender all of their money and possessions into the common fund, to be put at the disposal of everyone; one single property for the whole group. Therefore neither the humiliation of poverty nor the pride of possession is to be seen anywhere among them. They regard oil as a defilement, and should any of them be involuntarily anointed, he wipes his body clean. They make a point of having their skin dry and of always being clothed in white garments. In their various communal offices, the administrators are elected and appointed without distinction offices. They are not just in one town only, but in every town several of them form a colony. They welcome members from out of town as coequal brothers, and even though perfect strangers, as though they were intimate friends. For this reason they carry nothing with them ashen they travel: they are, however, armed against brigands. They do not change their garments or shoes until they have completely worn out. They neither buy nor sell anything among themselves. They give to each other freely and feel no need to repay anything in exchange. Before sunrise they recite certain ancestral prayers to the sun as though entreating it to rise. They work until about 11 A.M. when they put on ritual loincloths and bathe for purification. Then they enter a communal hall, where no one else is allowed, and eat only one bowlful of food for each man, ! together with their loaves of bread. They eat in silence. Afterwards they lay aside their sacred garment and go back to work until the evening. At evening they partake dinner in the same manner. During meals they are sober and quiet and their silence seems a great mystery to people outside. Their food and drink are so measured out that they are satisfied but no more. They see bodily pleasure as sinful. On the whole they do nothing unless ordered by their superiors, but two things they are allowed to do on their own discretion: to help those 'worthy of help', and to offer food to the needy. They are not allowed, however, to help members of their own families without permission from superiors. They are very careful not to exhibit their anger, carefully controlling such outbursts. They are very loyal and are peacemakers. They refuse to swear oaths, believing every word they speak to be stronger than an oath. They are scrupulous students of the ancient literature. They are ardent students in the healing of diseases, of the roots offering protection, and of the properties of stones. Those desiring to enter the sect are not allowed immediate entrance. They are made to wait outside for a period of one year. During this time each postulant is given a hatchet, a loincloth and a white garment. The hatchet is used for cleanliness in stooling for digging and covering up the hole. Having proved his consistency during the first year he draws closer to the way of life and participates in the purificatory baths at a higher degree, but he is not yet admitted into intimacy. His character is tested another two years and if 'ne proves worthy he is received into the company permanently.

They are sworn to love truth and to pursue liars. They must never steal. They are not allowed to keep any secrets from other members of the sect; but they are warned to reveal nothing to outsiders, even under the pain of death. They are not allowed to alter the 'books of the sect, and must keep all the information secret, especially the names of the angels. The name of the Lawgiver, after God, is a matter of great veneration to them; if anyone blasphemed the name of the Lawgiver he was sentenced to death. Those members convicted of grave faults are expelled from the order. In matters of judgement Essene leaders are very exact and impartial. Their decisions are irrevocable. They are so scrupulous in matters pertaining to the Sabbath day that they refuse even to go to stool on that day, They always give way to the opinion of the majority, and they make it their duty to obey their elders. They are divided into four lots according to the duration of their discipline, and the juniors are so inferior to their elders that if the latter touch them, they wash themselves as though they had been in contact with a stranger. They despise danger: they triumph over pain by the heroism of their convictions, and consider death, if it comes with glory, to be better than the preservation of life. They died in great glory amidst terrible torture in the war against the Romans. They believe that their souls are immortal, but that their bodies are corruptible. They believe the soul is trapped in the body and is freed with death. They believe that there is a place 'across the ocean' where just souls gather, a place reserved for the immortal souls of the just. The souls of the wicked, however, are relegated to a dark pit, shaken by storms and full of unending chastisement. Some of the Essenes became expert in forecasting the future."

 

 

Josephus (second account)

"The Essenes declare that souls are immortal and consider it necessary to struggle to obtain the reward of righteousness. They send offerings to the Temple, but offer no sacrifices since the purifications to which they are accustomed are different. For this reason, they refrain from entering into the common enclosure, but offer sacrifice among themselves. They are holy men and completely given up to agricultural labor."

 

Pliny the Elder

"To the west (of the Dead Sea) the Essenes have put the necessary distance between themselves and the insalubrious shore. They are a people unique of its kind and admirable beyond all others in the whole world; without women and renouncing love entirely, without money and having for company only palm trees. Owing to the throng of newcomers, this people is daily reborn in equal number; indeed, those whom, wearied by the fluctuations of fortune, life leads to adopt their customs, stream in in great numbers. Thus, unbelievable though this may seem, for thousands of centuries a people has existed which is eternal yet into which no one is born: so fruitful for them is the repentance which others feel for their past lives!"
 

Eusebius

(Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, writing around A.D.300)

"Even in our day, there are still those whose only guide is Deity; ones who live by the true reason of nature, not only themselves free but filling their neighbors with the spirit of freedom. They are not very numerous indeed, but that is not strange, for the highest nobility is ever rare; and then these ones have turned aside from the vulgar herd to devote themselves to a contemplation of nature's verities. They pray, if it were possible, that they may reform our fallen lives; but if they cannot, owing to the tide of evils and wrongs which surge up in cities, they flee away, lest they too be swept off their feet by the force of the current. And we, if we had a true zeal for self-improvement, would have to track them to their places of retreat, and, halting as supplicants before them, would beseech them to come to us and tame our life grown too fierce and wild; preaching instead of war and slavery and untold ills, their Gospel of Peace and freedom, and all the fullness of other blessings."

 

Edited October 17 by 心神 ~

[心神 ~]

 

As an aside, here's some food for thought, courtesy of The Nazarene Way:

 

Quote

LUCIFER: SATAN OR GODDESS?

 

Revelation 22:16: “I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”

  

The Greek word for “star” is “aster.” Astarte comes from the same root. The Hebrew words for "morning star" are "helel shachar." Shahar was the goddess of dawn in the pantheon of Ugarit; her twin brother was Shalim, which translated says "Ish-man of Elohim." Both were associated with the planet Venus.

 

Astarte was one of the most popular of the goddesses in the Greco-Roman pantheon in the first century. According to mythology, she came to earth in a ball of fire – a meteor, a black stone. And in biblical Hebrew, "shachar" is translated as "black" as well as "shining."

 

The Latin word for light is Luc; the Latin word for bearer is ferre. The planet Venus was known to the ancients as the “Light Bearer” because Venus appears in the sky each morning before the sun rises. In ancient Greco-Roman mythology Venus was the goddess of love, sexuality, and procreation. The goddess Venus, the “Light Bearer” was called Luc-ferre, or Lucifer in Latin.

 

Nowhere in the OT or the NT is Lucifer identified with, or as, “Satan.” This misconception originated with Jerome and his Latin Vulgate translation from the Hebrew and Greek. Jerome used the word, Lucifer, to translate “Morning Star” at 2 Peter 1:19 (Greek word was phosphoros), and At Isaiah 14:12 (Hebrew word was Helel). Read in context, neither identifies “Lucifer” as “Satan.” Jerome translated “morning star,” (Greek aster) at Revelation 22:16 as stella, not Lucifer.

 

Jerome’s inconsistency in his use of “Lucifer” as Latin for “the morning star” speaks volumes. How could he have written, “I Jesus…am the root and the offspring of David, Lucifer”?

 

As with many words in scripture, the translators chose the word that supported their version of the texts. “Morning Star” or “Venus” was translated as “Lucifer” if the goal was to demonize, especially if the “demon” was the goddess of sexuality or the sect that identified itself as “Children of Light,” as did the Essenes and Nazarenes.

 

Revelation 22:17: “The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come.’ And let him who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.”

 

“The Church” claimed “the Spirit” was Jesus and “the Bride” was “the Church” – two entities. Revelation 22:16 has been translated as: “I am the root AND the descendant of David, the Bright Morning Star” – a single entity; unless the conjunction “and” was shifted a couple of spaces in translation. It makes more sense – and is more consistent – if 22:16 is translated: “I Am the root, the descendant of David, AND the Bright Morning Star” – two entities.

 

“The Spirit is Jesus; The Bride is The Bright Morning Star – Astarte, Asheroth, Venus – take your pick. The Bride was the Goddess.

 

It is noteworthy that when this verse is modified and the key words compared to Moses’ conversation with The Gods on the Mountain, the answers agree: "'I AM' in Biblical Hebrew is ANOKI. The Babylonian "First Parents" were An and Ki; adding "Prince" and "Princess," Biblical Hebrew "sar, becomes Ansar and Kisar. Jesus said: "'An and Ki, THE ROOT and THE STAR – God and Goddess.”

 

Both were attempting to bring the feminine principles - Compassion and Wisdom - back into their religion. They were also attempting to explain "Creation" in terms that coincide with modern science: It takes two cooperating forces to create matter. The Goddess must be resurrected if science and scripture are to ever be reconciled!

 

 

Edited October 17 by 心神 ~

[forestofclarity]

40 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

Did the Jewish mother kill Jesus? The Jewish child? What do you mean by Jewish? Israelite? From the Tribe of Judah? The common man or the spiritual leader? Which sect? Pharisee, Rabbinite, Essene? Broadly accusing a large group of people with a diverse array beliefs and experiences of killing a single man isn't... great, especially when offered as a halfhearted question. Claims like that probably won't help people want to discuss this.

 

Wow, what a strong, nuanced, well-researched post! 

 

That's very true. This is used as an injunction to disestablish and murder Jews throughout history. I appreciate this thoughtful rebuttal. 

 

 

[心神 ~]

 

Quote

 

IMHO they continue to kill him in a way by way of slander and none acceptance of him as the fulfilment of themselves.

 

 

Not to drive the point too far, but wars are started over ideas like this. People of Jewish* faith and descent are far from the only ones to denigrate and slander Jesus. Is this line of thinking not slanderous in and of itself?

 

Sorry, I messed up the quote function. @Thrice Daily

 

Edited October 17 by 心神 ~

[Thrice Daily]

7 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

 

Not to drive the point too far, but wars are started over ideas like this. People of Jewish* faith and descent are far from the only ones to denigrate and slander Jesus. Is this line of thinking not slanderous in and of itself?

 

Sorry, I messed up the quote function. @Thrice Daily

 

Perhaps you’re right. It saddened me and was obvious from such an early age that ‘nobody was helping’ Jesus as he was walking to his death.

 

I couldn’t understand as a four year old, and got marched out of church by a teacher when I asked the question at a station of the cross.

 

You're right , perhaps I shouldn’t comment that and bundle folk together like that. Sorry if I offended , You’re right. 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Nungali look above, no red text in caps, just a friendly reminder 🥰

[心神 ~]

1 minute ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

It saddened me and was obvious from such an early age that ‘nobody was helping’ Jesus as he was walking to his death.

 

 

What about the followers who received his true message? The women who supported his ministry? Mary, who understood his mission and anointed him in preparation for his burial in the face of the disciples' incredulity?

 

For everyone who hated him, we have a story of some who loved him, and was loved by him. And he knew what he was doing, even if he was a lamb led to slaughter by the powers that be. Because of that, you've found a semblance of spiritual peace and understanding in your faith, and we are here to discuss it today. He's wasn't completely alone then, he is not alone now, and neither are we. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

I couldn’t understand as a four year old, and got marched out of church by a teacher when I asked the question at a station of the cross.

 

 

I understand. I was also punished for asking questions. The trick, I think, is to never stop asking. 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

@Nungali look above, no red text in caps, just a friendly reminder 🥰

 

 

 

Eh ... what ... where  ?