Christianity

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

thank you for this snippet of knowledge, it does not surprise me in the least.

 

 

Yet in many  cases the 'soul' is considered 'feminine' 

 

This is our 'soul'   trying to have relationship with our body       :

 

https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Psykhe.html

 

( someone is always going to try to interfere , aren't they . )

[NaturaNaturans]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

My astrological makeup is strongly Cancerian and Neptunian , symbols of the feminine  and the mystical , also associated with Luna ; the occult, mystical, unconscious, etc .  That can easily go out of balance but fortunately I have a well placed Mercurial regulator  ( again 'androgynous' energy with Mercury  but from the male 'form' .

Could you tell me a little about mercury energy, what it entails and where it comes from?

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

Yet in many  cases the 'soul' is considered 'feminine' 

 

This is our 'soul'   trying to have relationship with our body       :

 

https://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Psykhe.html

 

( someone is always going to try to interfere , aren't they . )

Jupp, same here. Fylgja. I know english dont have grammatical gender, but it is very easy to tell in those that do.

[Nungali]

39 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Could you tell me a little about mercury energy, what it entails and where it comes from?

 

 

Majesty of the Godhead, Wisdom-crowned Thoth, Lord of the Gates of the Universe: Thee, Thee we invoke!

O Thou of the Ibis head: Thee, Thee we invoke!

Thou who wieldest the Wand of Double Power: Thee, Thee we invoke!

Thou who bearest in Thy left hand the Rose and Cross of Light and Life: Thee, Thee we invoke!

O Thou whose head is as an Emerald, and Thy Nemyss as the night sky-blue! Thou whose skin is of flaming orange, as though it burned in a furnace: Thee, Thee we invoke!

Behold, I am yesterday, to-day, and the brother of The Morrow! I am born again and again. Mine is the unseen force from which the Gods are sprung; that giveth life unto the dwellers in the watch-towers of the Universe.

I am the charioteer of the East, Lord of the Past and the Future. I see by mine own inward light; Lord of Resurrection, who cometh forth from the dusk, and whose birth is from the House of Death.

O ye two divine hawks upon your pinnacles, who keep watch over the Universe! Ye who company the bier unto the House of Rest. Ye who pilot the Ship of Ra, ever advancing onwards unto the heights of Heaven!

Lord of the Shrine which standeth in the centre of the Earth!

Behold He is in me and I in Him!

Mine is the radiance in which Ptah floateth over his firmament.

I travel upon high.

I tread upon the firmament of Nu.

I raise a flashing flame with the lightning of mine eye, ever rushing forward in the splendour of the daily glorified Ra, giving my life to the dwellers of Earth.

If I say “come up upon the mountains,”

The Celestial waters shall flow at my word;

For I am Ra incarnate,

Khephra created in the flesh!

I am the image of my Father Tmu, Lord of the City of the Sun!

The God who commands is in my mouth;

The God of Wisdom is in my heart:

My tongue is the sanctuary of Truth:

And a God sitteth upon my lips!

My word is accomplished each day, and the desire of my heart realises itself, like that of Ptah when he creates his works.

I am Eternal; therefore everything acts according to my designs, and everything obeys my words.

Therefore I say unto Thee: come forth unto me from thine abode in the Silence, unutterable Wisdom, All-light, All-power! Thoth, Hermes, Mercury, Odin, by whatever name I call Thee, Thou art still un-named and nameless to Eternity! Come thou forth, I say, and aid and guard me in this Work of Art.

Thou, Star of the East that didst conduct the Magi! Thou art the same, all present in Heaven and in Hell. Thou that vibratest betwixt the Light and the Darkness. Rising, descending; changing ever, yet ever the same!

The Sun is Thy Father!

Thy Mother the Moon!

The Wind hath borne Thee in its bosom!

And Earth hath nourished the changeless Godhead of Thy Youth.

 

[blue eyed snake]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

When something has a cross cultural existence  I think its safe to assume it has archetypal significance ; that is , it is something everyone associates with a similar meaning .

 

thank you, will read those things you added and come back to it.

memory and focus have become very slow so that'll take some time

[blue eyed snake]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

I would say it is both ... it is from without ... a 'non local' awareness / consciousness .  and it is a type of 'unconscious opening ' from within - by that I mean its caused and regulated (timed ) by some internal clock that knows when you have developed enough to deal with it  ... like puberty ... we dont consciously create that change .

 

to me it feels like an interaction, I clearly remember how that light from above was always there for me. I have a memory of me as a toddler, sitting in my rocking horse enjoying the white light from above. Being untainted by any talk about god or angels I envisioned it as a hand holding a flashlight. For me a flashlight was a thing of wonder, we had flashlights in the house but as batteries were expensive  my chances of playing with it were very slim.

When i was grown a bit larger i found that when i empathized with someone's pain, whether that be the cat or a child i played with, something in my breast began whirring and then the light became stronger. I could the lay my hands on and the light went through my body to the injury which then healed. The kids in the street knew it and sometimes came to me for healing.

So it was human compassion that opened the body up for more light to come through it or something like that.

 

I never thought much of it, it was just so. I never thought i did the healing either, that was the light, my body was the channel. But when i started talking  about the light I quickly closed up as no-one seemed to get what I was talking about and they looked at me like I was a nutter.

 

waxing and waning this has stayed with me through my life

 

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

But I go more towards the outer source ... I had no idea it was coming ... hit me 'outa the blue ' ... grabbed me , shook me , got it forever now, and  there was nothing I could do about it .

 

until my late forties, then, i dunno why, all of a sudden the gentle beam of light transformed to a much broader and hotter beam that continually burned down on me. Light was pouring out of my hands and my belle.

 

indeed "it grabbed me , shook me". At that time I worked with youngsters with developmental disorders and some miraculous healings occurred. I was glad when, after weeks, this stream of gold became smaller, less burning and in the end trickled down to something I could tap into when needed but not burning and consuming me.

 

over the last years it quality has changed, I do not perceive it as light anymore, but it is still there, always.

Someone here once told me that the way you perceive energy has to do with the difference of your own bodymindsystem and the energy entering it.

 

that sounded plausible to me.

[NaturaNaturans]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

Thoth, Hermes, Mercury, Odin

Under edit.

 

Odin is the only deity that truly ressonates with me. An enigma. A man known under 170 names. His "real" name meaning shamanic fury or something along those lines. God of war, god of kingship, god of magic, god of poetry, god of the hanged. King of the gods, first king of my people. Leader of the wild hunt and the beserkers. Responsible for shaping the universe. Breathing life into Ash and Elm. On a constant search for wisdom, willing to sacrifice whatever is necessary in the process. I like to believe that he did it, ultimately, for the good of his people.

 

I know this sounds weird, and that this rant is sort of out of place.

 

However, I found it intriguing that you mentioned him in relation to Hermes, Mercury and Toth. Hermes and Mercury are the closest links I have found, although I have struggled finding a true paralelle.  Toth I know nothing about.

 

Tell me please, does he play any role in your tradition?

 

 

 

I have posted this a few times before, forgive me. But Nungali, do you see the same thing I see in the text, an initiation ritual? 

From the song of the high one:

 

I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run.

No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes,
screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there.^[10]

 

^{And after that, he learns the secrets. As it says in my signature:} 

 

^{From a word to a word I was led to a word,
From a work to a work I was led to a work.}

^Havamal

 

 

 

 

 

^{Sorry folks for derailing the thread.} 

Edited Sunday at 06:29 PM by NaturaNaturans

[blue eyed snake]

I like that

 

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground, our holy oaks were chopped down ( and then our warrior have chopped of their heads), our holy places were desecrated, our holy days were ' transformed' to their feasts to lure the simple folks to their churches.

 

Everything from the olden time is gone.

 

later they have hunted down our wise women under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer

 

deep mistrust and anger bubbles up when I hear those mealy mouthed persons blabbing about their constructed infertile god.

 

 

Freya

Edited Sunday at 07:11 PM by blue eyed snake

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

to me it feels like an interaction, I clearly remember how that light from above was always there for me. I have a memory of me as a toddler, sitting in my rocking horse enjoying the white light from above. Being untainted by any talk about god or angels I envisioned it as a hand holding a flashlight. For me a flashlight was a thing of wonder, we had flashlights in the house but as batteries were expensive  my chances of playing with it were very slim.

When i was grown a bit larger i found that when i empathized with someone's pain, whether that be the cat or a child i played with, something in my breast began whirring and then the light became stronger. I could the lay my hands on and the light went through my body to the injury which then healed. The kids in the street knew it and sometimes came to me for healing.

So it was human compassion that opened the body up for more light to come through it or something like that.

 

I never thought much of it, it was just so. I never thought i did the healing either, that was the light, my body was the channel. But when i started talking  about the light I quickly closed up as no-one seemed to get what I was talking about and they looked at me like I was a nutter.

 

waxing and waning this has stayed with me through my life

 

 

until my late forties, then, i dunno why, all of a sudden the gentle beam of light transformed to a much broader and hotter beam that continually burned down on me. Light was pouring out of my hands and my belle.

 

indeed "it grabbed me , shook me". At that time I worked with youngsters with developmental disorders and some miraculous healings occurred. I was glad when, after weeks, this stream of gold became smaller, less burning and in the end trickled down to something I could tap into when needed but not burning and consuming me.

 

over the last years it quality has changed, I do not perceive it as light anymore, but it is still there, always.

Someone here once told me that the way you perceive energy has to do with the difference of your own bodymindsystem and the energy entering it.

 

that sounded plausible to me.

Extraordinary experiences, it’s great you were able to start sharing the light like this at such an early age and develop your awareness in this way.
 

Very cool story. Can I ask does it make you feel tired when you use it, or does it energise you, or does it vary.

 

i’d be interested to know.

Edited Sunday at 07:14 PM by Thrice Daily

[NaturaNaturans]

20 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

I like that

 

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground, our holy oaks were chopped down ( and then our warrior have chopped of their heads), our holy places were desecrated, our holy days were ' transformed' to their feasts to lure the simple folks to their churches.

 

Everything from the olden time is gone.

 

later they have hunted down our wise women under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer

 

deep mistrust and anger bubbles up when I hear those mealy mouthed persons blabbing about their constructed infertile god.

 

 

Freya

Yes… but no. He is the ancestor of our people. Nothing can change that. Yes, much is lost, but the fire burns forever. 
 

corny maybe, but it is from the heart. You to scandinavian? I genuinley belive we have a lot more legacy from the pagan days. Check out Sturla Ellingsvåg, please.

[NaturaNaturans]

30 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

I like that

 

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground, our holy oaks were chopped down ( and then our warrior have chopped of their heads), our holy places were desecrated, our holy days were ' transformed' to their feasts to lure the simple folks to their churches.

 

Everything from the olden time is gone.

 

later they have hunted down our wise women under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer

 

deep mistrust and anger bubbles up when I hear those mealy mouthed persons blabbing about their constructed infertile god.

 

 

Freya

Close your eyes, take a mushroom, weed or beer If youd like. And boom, it is still there.

[Thrice Daily]

25 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

later they have hunted down our wise woman under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer

You know we were not quite fed the truth at school and we’re made to feel super guilty about our past.

 

it put me off religion. I recently learned that the historians that wrote our education books were not independent. Our history was heavily censored and much of the literature has been politically corrected

 

@blue eyed snake, You will never guess how many witches were truly executed in the entire Spanish Inquisition?

 

When you think of all the horror movies made about it it’s quite dreadful what we have been palmed off with as true history. 

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Thrice Daily said:

When you think of all the horror movies made about it it’s quite dreadful what we have been palmed off with as true history. 

I agree. 100% 

 

It is terrifying to think of the goblins Out there deciding what events are okay and not okay for children to learn about. Hence why I reccomended Ellingsvåg to @blue eyed snake

[Thrice Daily]

25 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I agree. 100% 

 

It is terrifying to think of the goblins Out there deciding what events are okay and not okay for children to learn about. Hence why I reccomended Ellingsvåg to @blue eyed snake

I know right, it has only been recently I learned why the Crusades even happened. 
 

I thought it was the crusades that spread Christianity and the knights just went around murdering people why didn’t convert.

 

I had no idea it was because regular people in Antioch were being slaughtered raped and mutilated/beheaded by invaders…

 

And eventually the Catholic Church in Rome were called on in absolute desperation to help so they intervened and sent  Knights.

 

Crazy to think how demonised the church got for that , what we were taught in school. Total Lies. It’s disgusting. 
 

Even ask Google now and you will get a mish mash of info that doesn’t quite tally with the truth,  it’s remarkable.
 

I'm glad we are able to learn about true history now and there are brave enough historians that are prepared to take the risks to write the books and do lectures..

 

We are very lucky ❤️ 

Edited Sunday at 07:57 PM by Thrice Daily

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Under edit.

 

Odin is the only deity that truly ressonates with me. An enigma. A man known under 170 names. His "real" name meaning shamanic fury or something along those lines. God of war, god of kingship, god of magic, god of poetry, god of the hanged. King of the gods, first king of my people. Leader of the wild hunt and the beserkers. Responsible for shaping the universe. Breathing life into Ash and Elm. On a constant search for wisdom, willing to sacrifice whatever is necessary in the process. I like to believe that he did it, ultimately, for the good of his people.

 

I know this sounds weird, and that this rant is sort of out of place.

 

However, I found it intriguing that you mentioned him in relation to Hermes, Mercury and Toth. Hermes and Mercury are the closest links I have found, although I have struggled finding a true paralelle.  Toth I know nothing about.

 

Tell me please, does he play any role in your tradition?

 

I find the association very general , maybe 'the closest fit '  ?  A lot of attributes of Odin do not apply to  Mercury  but other Gods  although they share attributions with magic  and perhaps poetry (a form of communication '  [ 'Mercury in Venus is a good aspect for poets ]  ) .  Odin incorporates a lots of traits that would be associated with Mars .

 

In one of my traditions Hermes, Mercury  , seen as associated with 'Thoth' ... which is a Greek rendering of  Tehuti  /  Djehuti  does play a large and significant role .  He is the patron of magicians and science ... right up my alley    .  He also plays a major role in the visualization / meditation  for Liber Resh - a practice done four times a day .  So ,  very present . 

 

 

I have posted this a few times before, forgive me. But Nungali, do you see the same thing I see in the text, an initiation ritual? 

 

Not one that I am personally familiar with .  It does seem to suggest it though, especially at the end  ( the bit you explained ) .

From the song of the high one:

 

I know that I hung on a windy tree
nine long nights,
wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,
myself to myself,
on that tree of which no man knows from where its roots run.

No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes,
screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there.^[10]

 

^{And after that, he learns the secrets. As it says in my signature:} 

 

^{From a word to a word I was led to a word,
From a work to a work I was led to a work.}

^Havamal

 

 

 

 

 

^{Sorry folks for derailing the thread.} 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

I like that

 

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground, our holy oaks were chopped down ( and then our warrior have chopped of their heads), our holy places were desecrated, our holy days were ' transformed' to their feasts to lure the simple folks to their churches.

 

Everything from the olden time is gone.

 

later they have hunted down our wise women under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer

 

deep mistrust and anger bubbles up when I hear those mealy mouthed persons blabbing about their constructed infertile god.

 

 

Freya

 

Well then .... I cant remember if I shared this with you before or not , so ....

 

 

Hymn to Proserpine (After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian Faith)

By Algernon Charles Swinburne

 

.....   " 

O Gods dethroned and deceased, cast forth, wiped out in a day!

From your wrath is the world released, redeemed from your chains, men say.

New Gods are crowned in the city; their flowers have broken your rods;

They are merciful, clothed with pity, the young compassionate Gods.

But for me their new device is barren, the days are bare;

Things long past over suffice, and men forgotten that were.

Time and the Gods are at strife; ye dwell in the midst thereof,

Draining a little life from the barren breasts of love.

I say to you, cease, take rest; yea, I say to you all, be at peace,

Till the bitter milk of her breast and the barren bosom shall cease.

Wilt thou yet take all, Galilean? but these thou shalt not take,

The laurel, the palms and the pæan, the breasts of the nymphs in the brake; .....

 

whole poem :

 

Spoiler

 

Hymn to Proserpine (After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian Faith)

By Algernon Charles Swinburne

Vicisti, Galilæe.

I have lived long enough, having seen one thing, that love hath an end;

Goddess and maiden and queen, be near me now and befriend.

Thou art more than the day or the morrow, the seasons that laugh or that weep;

For these give joy and sorrow; but thou, Proserpina, sleep.

Sweet is the treading of wine, and sweet the feet of the dove;

But a goodlier gift is thine than foam of the grapes or love.

Yea, is not even Apollo, with hair and harpstring of gold,

A bitter God to follow, a beautiful God to behold?

I am sick of singing; the bays burn deep and chafe: I am fain

To rest a little from praise and grievous pleasure and pain.

For the Gods we know not of, who give us our daily breath,

We know they are cruel as love or life, and lovely as death.

O Gods dethroned and deceased, cast forth, wiped out in a day!

From your wrath is the world released, redeemed from your chains, men say.

New Gods are crowned in the city; their flowers have broken your rods;

They are merciful, clothed with pity, the young compassionate Gods.

But for me their new device is barren, the days are bare;

Things long past over suffice, and men forgotten that were.

Time and the Gods are at strife; ye dwell in the midst thereof,

Draining a little life from the barren breasts of love.

I say to you, cease, take rest; yea, I say to you all, be at peace,

Till the bitter milk of her breast and the barren bosom shall cease.

Wilt thou yet take all, Galilean? but these thou shalt not take,

The laurel, the palms and the pæan, the breasts of the nymphs in the brake;

Breasts more soft than a dove's, that tremble with tenderer breath;

And all the wings of the Loves, and all the joy before death;

All the feet of the hours that sound as a single lyre,

Dropped and deep in the flowers, with strings that flicker like fire.

More than these wilt thou give, things fairer than all these things?

Nay, for a little we live, and life hath mutable wings.

A little while and we die; shall life not thrive as it may?

For no man under the sky lives twice, outliving his day.

And grief is a grievous thing, and a man hath enough of his tears:

Why should he labour, and bring fresh grief to blacken his years?

Thou hast conquered, O pale Galilean; the world has grown grey from thy breath;

We have drunken of things Lethean, and fed on the fullness of death.

Laurel is green for a season, and love is sweet for a day;

But love grows bitter with treason, and laurel outlives not May.

Sleep, shall we sleep after all? for the world is not sweet in the end;

For the old faiths loosen and fall, the new years ruin and rend.

Fate is a sea without shore, and the soul is a rock that abides;

But her ears are vexed with the roar and her face with the foam of the tides.

O lips that the live blood faints in, the leavings of racks and rods!

O ghastly glories of saints, dead limbs of gibbeted Gods!

Though all men abase them before you in spirit, and all knees bend,

I kneel not neither adore you, but standing, look to the end.

All delicate days and pleasant, all spirits and sorrows are cast

Far out with the foam of the present that sweeps to the surf of the past:

Where beyond the extreme sea-wall, and between the remote sea-gates,

Waste water washes, and tall ships founder, and deep death waits:

Where, mighty with deepening sides, clad about with the seas as with wings,

And impelled of invisible tides, and fulfilled of unspeakable things,

White-eyed and poisonous-finned, shark-toothed and serpentine-curled,

Rolls, under the whitening wind of the future, the wave of the world.

The depths stand naked in sunder behind it, the storms flee away;

In the hollow before it the thunder is taken and snared as a prey;

In its sides is the north-wind bound; and its salt is of all men's tears;

With light of ruin, and sound of changes, and pulse of years:

With travail of day after day, and with trouble of hour upon hour;

And bitter as blood is the spray; and the crests are as fangs that devour:

And its vapour and storm of its steam as the sighing of spirits to be;

And its noise as the noise in a dream; and its depth as the roots of the sea:

And the height of its heads as the height of the utmost stars of the air:

And the ends of the earth at the might thereof tremble, and time is made bare.

Will ye bridle the deep sea with reins, will ye chasten the high sea with rods?

Will ye take her to chain her with chains, who is older than all ye Gods?

All ye as a wind shall go by, as a fire shall ye pass and be past;

Ye are Gods, and behold, ye shall die, and the waves be upon you at last.

In the darkness of time, in the deeps of the years, in the changes of things,

Ye shall sleep as a slain man sleeps, and the world shall forget you for kings.

Though the feet of thine high priests tread where thy lords and our forefathers trod,

Though these that were Gods are dead, and thou being dead art a God,

Though before thee the throned Cytherean be fallen, and hidden her head,

Yet thy kingdom shall pass, Galilean, thy dead shall go down to thee dead.

Of the maiden thy mother men sing as a goddess with grace clad around;

Thou art throned where another was king; where another was queen she is crowned.

Yea, once we had sight of another: but now she is queen, say these.

Not as thine, not as thine was our mother, a blossom of flowering seas,

Clothed round with the world's desire as with raiment, and fair as the foam,

And fleeter than kindled fire, and a goddess, and mother of Rome.

For thine came pale and a maiden, and sister to sorrow; but ours,

Her deep hair heavily laden with odour and colour of flowers,

White rose of the rose-white water, a silver splendour, a flame,

Bent down unto us that besought her, and earth grew sweet with her name.

For thine came weeping, a slave among slaves, and rejected; but she

Came flushed from the full-flushed wave, and imperial, her foot on the sea.

And the wonderful waters knew her, the winds and the viewless ways,

And the roses grew rosier, and bluer the sea-blue stream of the bays.

Ye are fallen, our lords, by what token? we wise that ye should not fall.

Ye were all so fair that are broken; and one more fair than ye all.

But I turn to her still, having seen she shall surely abide in the end;

Goddess and maiden and queen, be near me now and befriend.

O daughter of earth, of my mother, her crown and blossom of birth,

I am also, I also, thy brother; I go as I came unto earth.

In the night where thine eyes are as moons are in heaven, the night where thou art,

Where the silence is more than all tunes, where sleep overflows from the heart,

Where the poppies are sweet as the rose in our world, and the red rose is white,

And the wind falls faint as it blows with the fume of the flowers of the night,

And the murmur of spirits that sleep in the shadow of Gods from afar

Grows dim in thine ears and deep as the deep dim soul of a star,

In the sweet low light of thy face, under heavens untrod by the sun,

Let my soul with their souls find place, and forget what is done and undone.

Thou art more than the Gods who number the days of our temporal breath;

Let these give labour and slumber; but thou, Proserpina, death.

Therefore now at thy feet I abide for a season in silence. I know

I shall die as my fathers died, and sleep as they sleep; even so.

For the glass of the years is brittle wherein we gaze for a span;

A little soul for a little bears up this corpse which is man.

So long I endure, no longer; and laugh not again, neither weep.

For there is no God found stronger than death; and death is a sleep.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

42 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I know right, it has only been recently I learned why the Crusades even happened. 
 

I thought it was the crusades that spread Christianity and the knights just went around murdering people why didn’t convert.

 

I had no idea it was because regular people in Antioch were being slaughtered raped and mutilated/beheaded by invaders…

 

And eventually the Catholic Church in Rome were called on in absolute desperation to help so they intervened and sent  Knights.

 

Crazy to think how demonised the church got for that , what we were taught in school. Total Lies. It’s disgusting. 
 

Even ask Google now and you will get a mish mash of info that doesn’t quite tally with the truth,  it’s remarkable.
 

I'm glad we are able to learn about true history now and there are brave enough historians that are prepared to take the risks to write the books and do lectures..

 

We are very lucky ❤️ 

 

Well thats great !  makes the crusades sound like a justified police action  

 

Now look at some other crusader history .... you know the first crusade was not even knights , right ?   Do you know what happened as soon as they crossed over to 'Asia' ? 

 

You know the other crusades where NOT mostly Knights right ?

 

Yes, thank goodness for history  :

 

" This call was met with an enthusiastic popular response across all social classes in western Europe. Mobs of predominantly poor Christians numbering in the thousands, led by Peter the Hermit, a French priest, were the first to respond. What has become known as the People's Crusade passed through Germany and indulged in wide-ranging anti-Jewish activities, including the Rhineland massacres.

 

So they didnt even get to the Holy Land and they killed people that had nothing to do with the invasion of Jerusalem , who where Sljuk Turks !

 

Then various swarms of them went across the countryside , ravaging the land like locust  .... I will skip the details as they are historical , except for one delightful part where they ate their enemies ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma'arra

 

 

.... all to rescue the oppressed in Jerusalem .... and not for an 'eternal lifetime'  'get out of hell free' card   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_indulgence

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

I like that

 

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground,

 

Its sad that it happened, but Christianity for better or worse unified what would later be called "The West", supplanting simple values like love thy neighbour and do unto others. The hypocrisy that it took to do that is out of order, I agree with you it is terrible. Should Jesus Have Existed he certainly wouldn't have agreed with the way his message was being spread, but it was spread none the less.  

And so we have a thread here called "Christianity" and we have manners and values that we simply take for granted in western countries built on the back of these decisions to cut off from the old ways.

 

Would it have been better had we stayed tribal?, Its difficult to say really isn't it. I guess it would depend which tribe you were part of and at what period. One thing is for sure, as a man, as a part of any of these tribes I would have been called to defend that Tribe at some point, to the death most likely, having to leave the women and children back at the home and head out with the other men to do battle with incoming forces. Men were expendable in these times back then right, but that's tribal life simply? Just as the Christians had to in Battle of Yarmouk in 636 CE , Barbarians will at some point attack our partly peaceful existence... 

 

our holy oaks were chopped down ( and then our warrior have chopped of their heads), our holy places were desecrated.

 

Very sad but as with any band of folk descending on another there will always be psychopaths and sociopaths that get off on this kind of terrible behaviour, it is shameful and the traditions should have been merged if you ask me, there is no reason why they couldn't have been integrated to a degree and these old places of worship respected alongside the newly forming churches...

Look at the forests that have been chopped down in general, all be in for the industrial age, but really picture it, Europe was all forest, all of it, the UK all forest, even right up to the beaches in many cases, thick forests, imagine that. Its sad isn't it, but times changed. Luckily we can still visit parts of Greece with these ancient trees, or visit the primordial forest near me in Poland, the last surviving wild forest of Europe, its so tiny, so sad it was all destroyed, all in the name of progress...

 

 our holy days were ' transformed' to their feasts to lure the simple folks to their churches.

 

Again its not cool is it, I'm just so glad the powers that be these days cannot get away with rewriting history like this and feeding us lies. They try but luckily in our times now people are willing to stand up and tell the truth even if they face persecution and death, some of them... I hope you bump into them online. The simple people have become the courageous and noble, all be them few. They are prepared to stand up against tyranny in these times and more every day are speaking out against the trickery you speak of here. "transformed" truths,,, Telling us lies are truth and truth are lies. Thanks god we have brave independent journalists these days that can reach the masses, back then we were not so lucky. I'm sorry for them.

 

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

Everything from the olden time is gone.

Not everything, it is all still stored within us, within our cells, it all is. The constant fight of dark and light will always be with us, until the end or eternally, I don't know which. But one thing is for sure it is all still here. And even in the most toxic times and subcultures, love will find a way to shine through, People still show kindness in moments, courage in others, they fall in love they have children, even in the harshest times they get to understand the generative force of life, where we come from , where we go to. Everything from the olden time is still very much with us, as long as we don't give up and lose our faith. We have everything at hand...

 

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

later they have hunted down our wise women under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer.

 

This was as much a social and cultural phenomena as anything else. A lot of the time witch trials were led by local secular authorities more than by the church itself. Local courts and communities were the ones prosecuting witches a lot of the time sadly community members handing over their own, religious leaders were sometimes involved but the trials were not solely a church thing. It was a harsh time, for so many hundreds of years it was such a dangerous time to live, people that didn't fit in were often scapegoated and pushed into trials by locals, remember there were, plagues and diseases , bad crop seasons, general social unrest, all manner of harshities that could drag folk into trials, some of them men too. 

Also through much of it it wasnt so much about herbalists or midwives being burned at the stake like we are led to believe, these types would be more likely doing the persecuting. 

 

deep mistrust and anger bubbles up when I hear those mealy mouthed persons blabbing about their constructed infertile god.

 

Okay, I agree, dialogue is much better than blabbing. Hopefully we can create some interesting rapport on this thread and get into some of the details in this comment more deeply with other Bums comments too x 

 

If I can I'll finish with a question @blue eyed snake,,

"Do you think there is a supreme creator of all? a power behind the creation of all things manifest? and if you believe in many powers or Gods and Goddesses, do you think there is likely a single creator of some sort behind all of nature and behind all of them?" 

 

"If so what would you call that creator, what words would you choose to describe it?"

So two questions  

Love and Light, 

Thrice D

 

Freya

 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

I like that

 

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground, our holy oaks were chopped down ( and then our warrior have chopped of their heads), our holy places were desecrated, our holy days were ' transformed' to their feasts to lure the simple folks to their churches.

 

Everything from the olden time is gone.

 

later they have hunted down our wise women under the name of witch-hunt under the guidance of the witch-hammer

 

deep mistrust and anger bubbles up when I hear those mealy mouthed persons blabbing about their constructed infertile god.

 

 

Freya

 

 

Read Tacitus - the Romans did a lot of that (burning sacred groves and so on).

 

 

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

 

 

 

I dont know why the quote box copied empty but ....

 

It appears you think Christianity ended tribalism ?  

 

" And so we have a thread here called "Christianity" and we have manners and values that we simply take for granted in western countries built on the back of these decisions to cut off from the old ways.

 

Would it have been better had we stayed tribal?,  "

 

Thats rather  confusing .

 

Then there is 'that one' about the claim it wasnt the church that persecuted people  but the civil authorities . To me your post seems like an ever so correct and polite Christian justification  and a bit of 'moving the goal posts ' ... perhaps its calculated  or unconscious ?  Not sure which at this stage .

 

As you see blue eyed snake didnt blame the Church on that at all ... she was protesting against Christians  ... I would like to see some historical proof that the witch burning civil authorities where NOT Christian .

[Nungali]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Read Tacitus - the Romans did a lot of that (burning sacred groves and so on).

 

 

 

Here we trashed the whole sacred country !

 

Like  Alexander .... invades the Persian capitol and 'Throw all the library books in the river ! '  A few where left ... until the Muslims came along .... 'Throw all the rest of the books in the river ! '

 

more than 80% of a civilization's knowledge lost ... a civilization that had spiritual  roots back to  2500bc and was one of the first to  develop  more sexual equality, egalitarianism, animal rights , medicine science astronomy philosophy ... etc .

 

bah humbug ... throw it ALL in the river ! 

[Thrice Daily]

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Well thats great !  makes the crusades sound like a justified police action  

 

Now look at some other crusader history .... you know the first crusade was not even knights , right ?   Do you know what happened as soon as they crossed over to 'Asia' ? 

 

You know the other crusades where NOT mostly Knights right ?

 

Yes, thank goodness for history  :

 

" This call was met with an enthusiastic popular response across all social classes in western Europe. Mobs of predominantly poor Christians numbering in the thousands, led by Peter the Hermit, a French priest, were the first to respond. What has become known as the People's Crusade passed through Germany and indulged in wide-ranging anti-Jewish activities, including the Rhineland massacres.

 

So they didnt even get to the Holy Land and they killed people that had nothing to do with the invasion of Jerusalem , who where Sljuk Turks !

 

Then various swarms of them went across the countryside , ravaging the land like locust  .... I will skip the details as they are historical , except for one delightful part where they ate their enemies ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Ma'arra

 

 

.... all to rescue the oppressed in Jerusalem .... and not for an 'eternal lifetime'  'get out of hell free' card   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade_indulgence

 

 

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

27 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

I'm a little confused as you seem like a well educated character, are you saying no Crusade should have been called for?. It seems a little crazy, it is kinda like me saying forget about the battle of Tours, lets just let the chips fall where they may. Remember we are not only talking about Jerusalem here, we are talking about Mesopatamia, (Zoroastrian, but part Christian) , Syria (Christian), Egypt (Christian), not to mention Palestine. Exactly how many peoples heads do you think should have been chopped off before the Roman church did anything at all... Turkey was Christian too wasnt it? So about 3/4 of Christiandom had been conquered before there was a Crusade planned against it... 

So 470 years of hostile take over from the south, and then the first crusade, which lasted for,,, 4 years, then they got Jerusalum back, and that was about it, Turkey gone Egypt gone [=Dark Ages In West] etc

 

Should there not have been any notification sent out to anyone? It seems like that's what you are implying? War is harsh, there are harsh outcomes, even cannibalism, but what exactly is it that you would have like to have had happen, have you really thought all of this through? In actual reality.

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

 

 

I'm a little confused as you seem like a well educated character, are you saying no Crusade should have been called for?. It seems a little crazy, it is kinda like me saying forget about the battle of Tours, lets just let the chips fall where they may. Remember we are not only talking about Jerusalem here, we are talking about Mesopatamia, (Zoroastrian, but part Christian) , Syria (Christian), Egypt (Christian), not to mention Palestine. Exactly how many peoples heads do you think should have been chopped off before the Roman church did anything at all... Turkey was Christian too wasnt it? So about 3/4 of Christiandom had been conquered before there was a Crusade planned against it... 

So 470 years of hostile take over from the south, and then the first crusade, which lasted for,,, 4 years, then they got Jerusalum back, and that was about it, Turkey gone Egypt gone [=Dark Ages In West] etc

 

Should there not have been any notification sent out to anyone? It seems like that's what you are implying? War is harsh, there are harsh outcomes, even cannibalism, but what exactly is it that you would have like to have had happen, have you really thought all of this through? In actual reality.

 

I am saying what I said ... its up there  ^ .

 

One thing that might make it less confusing  for you is the context  to what I was replying to . .. and the accurate reading of what I posted .

 

For example , you talked about a bunch of knights going to avenge  wrongdoings ... I pointed out a whole lot of other dynamics  going on .. for example plenary indulgences , swarms of people who where NOT knights getting involved ... motivated by base Christian theology , the thing blue eyed snake seemed to be  complaining about .. - its virtually the same thing  modern Islamic terrorists and ancient Islamic warriors have been seeking .  I see you have ignored or passed  by  the points I made  and gone back to appealing about the reason you gave for the invasion in the first place .

 

Its like the same 'game playing' going on when a non Christian says 'Christians burnt witches '  and a Christian comes along and says 'Actually that was the civil authorities and not the church . "

 

if one is not perceptive ... that works .

[Thrice Daily]

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

It appears you think Christianity ended tribalism ?  

 

I don't think it ended tribalism, please read my last comment above this one.

 

It certainly didn't end it and luckily hasn't been ended by it either. Although it came close over the years, Conquests, Communism, Hollywood... It's all coming out in the wash though, the good, the bad and the ugly. There is a lot on the table, but I'm betting the good outweighs the bad, when it comes to the overall value and need for Christianity (and Buddhism, Taoism, and others,,,) in the dimly lit world right now. (and by that I don't mean we need the church or religious institutions as such, I mean in the heart and the good , with its ability to pacify evil in the world) .

 

So many people need to be saved from the atrocities they are ready to commit, its so sad, I mean look at London and the knife crime there, every day another murder, another revenge, another vendetta, its so sad, in every major city. If all could find forgiveness in their hearts at the same time it could end tomorrow. 

 

That's why I personally trust Jesus message above all else, like so many others do, in the blood and pain of a sacrifice like that, it makes sense to me that wish can echo through the sands of time to the hearts of that man or young boys, the night before committing a sin like that, just that they see a dove, a lamb, a glimmer of hope, that tomorrow might not pick up that knife, and be saved from the sin before it happens. if only they can see a glimmer of hope in their heart they will be saved from the madness of it all and that tough step towards radical forgiveness and the mental leap of ,,, having trust in the universal law, or leaving ot in Gods hands...

 

I love all the rich philosophy from other traditions sure, but nothing cuts to the root of the problem so swiftly as, forgive those... and love your enemy. It makes me smile that Jesus put it in that particular nut shell. If you can absolutely only give one peace of advice that could save humanity right now, it would be that, imho

 

Do you agree? or do you think there is a better short quote of advice that could stop all the madness and killing in the world, right now if it struck the hearts of men? (like it does every day, thank god)

 

I hope you don't think Tribalism is the right answer.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

On 04/10/2024 at 9:17 PM, Apech said:

… meek in this context refers to someone who has the power to react but refuses to use it.  Like perhaps self restrained …

 

The NT Beatitudes are rooted in the OT Psalms.

 

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5) 

the meek shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 37:11)

 

those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth (Psalms 37:9)

‘wait upon’, in the original Hebrew - ‘to bind up with’ (well … that’s what Google says, feel free to correct it @Daniel )

 

In this context, ‘meek’ means ‘to put your trust in God’.  

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:28 PM by Cobie