Christianity

[old3bob]

 

In Hinduism "God" has the aspects of creator, preserver, and destroyer aka Lords Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, thus a lot different than orthodox Christianity.   Then there is the absolute being/source beyond  those categories that is called Brahman.  (with an n) Anyway by saying God is this or that is putting a category onto same,  btw. the Bible also uses the term "mystery" in relation to God,  which is more or less similar to a 'beyond categories'.  Our minds can not wrap our heads around a 'beyond categories' because it is the nature of mind to always try and nail things down with categories, having said that I'd say that Love and Grace are aspects of God if seen as derived from Source.  There is also somewhere in the Bible that speaks of God as sometimes being terrible, thus not only Love and Grace.   Jesus is called the Prince of Peace but he is also called the Lion of Judah along with being the most powerful and invincible spiritual warrior for Christianity's heaven.   (thus not only a being a peaceful pacifist which doesn't go all that well with how Christianity is often taught )  Just some of my ramblings early in the morning....

 

[blue eyed snake]

13 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

one of the reasons of my deep distrust of christians is the way they have razed our native religion to the ground,

 

Its sad that it happened, but Christianity for better or worse unified what would later be called "The West", supplanting simple values like love thy neighbour and do unto others. The hypocrisy that it took to do that is out of order, I agree with you it is terrible. Should Jesus Have Existed he certainly wouldn't have agreed with the way his message was being spread, but it was spread none the less.  

And so we have a thread here called "Christianity" and we have manners and values that we simply take for granted in western countries built on the back of these decisions to cut off from the old ways.

 

Would it have been better had we stayed tribal?, Its difficult to say really isn't it. I guess it would depend which tribe you were part of and at what period. One thing is for sure, as a man, as a part of any of these tribes I would have been called to defend that Tribe at some point, to the death most likely, having to leave the women and children back at the home and head out with the other men to do battle with incoming forces. Men were expendable in these times back then right, but that's tribal life simply? Just as the Christians had to in Battle of Yarmouk in 636 CE , Barbarians will at some point attack our partly peaceful existence... 

 

most of this is beside my point and some else addressed that adequately.

 

The point is that "the mother church" did send priests, those who came with the message of peace and turn the other cheek mind you... accompanied by groups of soldiers to convert my people if not peacefully, then by the sword. When we did not want to be converted they crushed us down, repeatedly in the long run, until nothing was left of our religion. All this on direct orders of the church.

When we rightfully came back at them and killed some, we were the barbarians, yeah...

 

also I never have taken those christian values for granted, I prefer to use my brain to find out what morality I want to live by. Through my life I've seen society over here change form 80% christians to around 30%, although no one knows how many of those 30% are practicing christian, or too lazy to officially quit, or just want to sit in church with christmas as that is such a nice coming together. 

i regard that as a good development.

 

When I still used the healing quality that goes through me,  often it was to heal former christians from their trauma, the guilt that was burned into them with the ever repeating message of "sin",  the enormous fear of people on their deathbed, because they had "sinned."

 

13 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Very sad but as with any band of folk descending on another there will always be psychopaths and sociopaths that get off on this kind of terrible behaviour, it is shameful and the traditions should have been merged if you ask me, there is no reason why they couldn't have been integrated to a degree and these old places of worship respected alongside the newly forming churches...

 

as i said: priests, with a mandate form the church

 

and those religions cannot be 'merged' as the differences are too large, Christians have cut out the female principle.

 

13 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Look at the forests that have been chopped down in general, all be in for the industrial age, but really picture it, Europe was all forest, all of it, the UK all forest, even right up to the beaches in many cases, thick forests, imagine that. Its sad isn't it, but times changed. Luckily we can still visit parts of Greece with these ancient trees, or visit the primordial forest near me in Poland, the last surviving wild forest of Europe, its so tiny, so sad it was all destroyed, all in the name of progress...

 

the hacking down of trees, of forests is criminal. Trees and forests are living entities you can communicate with.  Also the little folk that used to live in the woodlands have been uprooted when humans cut down their homes.

 

as were now on the brink of collapse of the once balanced systems of our mother earth, the enormity of our misdeeds  becomes all too clear. Most of these misdeeds done by the western countries, those countries that are christian.

 

That's not progress, but utter destruction, and still humanity goes on.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

This was as much a social and cultural phenomena as anything else. A lot of the time witch trials were led by local secular authorities more than by the church itself. Local courts and communities were the ones prosecuting witches a lot of the time sadly community members handing over their own, religious leaders were sometimes involved but the trials were not solely a church thing. It was a harsh time, for so many hundreds of years it was such a dangerous time to live, people that didn't fit in were often scapegoated and pushed into trials by locals, remember there were, plagues and diseases , bad crop seasons, general social unrest, all manner of harshities that could drag folk into trials, some of them men too. 

 

Well, that may be so but it came in handy for the church to tap into those fears among the simple folks.

i my country it was civil authorities that were opposing these things, more than elsewhere. It were these mealymouthed priests that were executing these things. As far as I remember the effects of the witchhunt were somewhat smaller here then elsewhere thanks to the opposition of the secular authorities

 

Read the  hammer of witches aka  Malleus Maleficarum and see how females are made out to be evil and sinful. IMO this is still the rootcause of a lot of twisted ideas and misogyny nowadays, its a horrid book.

 

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

Local courts and communities were the ones prosecuting witches a lot of the time sadly community members handing over their own, religious leaders were sometimes involved but the trials were not solely a church thing. It was a harsh time, for so many hundreds of years it was such a dangerous time to live, people that didn't fit in were often scapegoated and pushed into trials by locals, remember there were, plagues and diseases , bad crop seasons, general social unrest, all manner of harshities that could drag folk into trials, some of them men too. 

 

and children

so called witches were tortured until they screamed names to stop the pain, ah, that peaceful forgiving christian belief...

Church had much influence and could just as easily have put an end to to it by prohibiting the killing of so called witches.

and they were mostly elderly women living alone, whether you like that or not.

 

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

Also through much of it it wasnt so much about herbalists or midwives being burned at the stake like we are led to believe,

 

 

there has been some research on that, i know, but it was meager.

What is clear though that when the witch-hunts ended herbal/medical knowledge was all in the hands of monks, males. Forcing the citizens to go to the monks for help when they were ill or had troubles with pregnancy or delivery.

 

In my language the translation for the word 'midwife'  literally translates as wise woman.

And i guess it is not an accident we are about the only western country were midwifes still work, delivery at home is still a common  thing although t looks like they are know forced to bend for the male, mechanized look at delivery ( and medicine as a whole) Their numbers are diminishing.

 

So our wisewomen were gone. And that, i am sure, was an outcome that fitted in right with the intention of the church.

 

females were seen as foul creatures, full of sin and should be kept as low as possible.

 

Females are the lifegivers,

in my opinion it is the disbalance between males and females that is partly fed by the christian church that is the rootcause of a lot of evil in the world.

 

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

This was as much a social and cultural phenomena as anything else. A lot of the time witch trials were led by local secular authorities more than by the church itself. Local courts and communities were the ones prosecuting witches a lot of the time sadly community members handing over their own, religious leaders were sometimes involved but the trials were not solely a church thing. It was a harsh time, for so many hundreds of years it was such a dangerous time to live, people that didn't fit in were often scapegoated and pushed into trials by locals, remember there were, plagues and diseases , bad crop seasons, general social unrest, all manner of harshities that could drag folk into trials, some of them men too. 

 

you made that up, it hardly strengthens your already meager post

It fits right in with the idea that females are lowly creatures full sin

 

------

about your question, I do not believe in a creator, since i first put my thinking mind on it. It does not add up, when you need a creator, the who created the creator? As a kid that whole god thing reminded me of a sort of super santaclaus, sheer nonsense.

Of course some more thoughts have come to me since I was 10. To me it's hogwash,  I do not do any godding.

I do value the archetypical gods from the old religions as they speak to us in language that is close to our experiences and cover all the ground a human meets down here.

 

Daoism comes close to my ideas, the Dao that can be spoken of is not the real dao.

but I keep that in the box "ideas" Not in the box "truth" 

 

 

see my footnote

The mystery of life is not a problem to solve but a reality to experience.

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Taoist Perspective: In Taoism, the concept of non-contention (wú zhēng 無爭) is central to its philosophy of life. Laozi, the sage behind the Tao Te Ching, writes, "The soft and yielding overcomes the hard and unyielding" (Tao Te Ching, Chapter 76). This principle suggests that strength lies in flexibility and resilience, not in aggression. The Taoist ideal is one of flowing with the natural order of things, avoiding forceful resistance, and allowing the Tao to guide one's actions.

The notion of wu wei (無為), often translated as "non-action" or "effortless action," complements this. It teaches that one should act in harmony with the Tao, without striving or forcing outcomes. In this context, turning the other cheek can be seen as an application of wu wei—a deliberate choice to not retaliate, thereby maintaining inner peace and allowing the situation to resolve itself naturally, without escalating violence.

Comparative Insight: From a Taoist standpoint, turning the other cheek aligns with the idea of yielding rather than resisting. It’s about maintaining one’s composure and refusing to be dragged into the destructive cycle of revenge. The Taoist sage, much like the Christian who follows Christ’s teachings, would see the wisdom in not allowing anger or pride to dictate their response to aggression.

 

I really think you misunderstand and misconstrue this and hope someone better versed in daoism will comment on it.

[blue eyed snake]

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

I am wondering if the  type of illumination , the part of the body 'struck'  , relates to a particular path  (Yoga ) and our paths ( True Will , 'incantatory purpose / mission ?

 

I think  were you're touched by it will have a relationship with the path you'll be following.

 

for you its seeing/knowing

for me its compassion

 

I've known a teeneager who was traumatized by severe bullying in primary school, both by kids and teachers.

One day he told me a beam of light had struck his heart, all kind of stories he told me then, about what happened ( things he had apparently never told anybody) and about that beam, how he had experienced it.

 

in the end he told me that thanks to the beam he could now forgive his perpetrators and he felt much better, in the weeks after that he regained his balance and to me it looked like that trauma had dissolved.

 

but 3 persons is not enough data

 

also i guess, when that white light has had entry long enough all the paths will open up for you

 

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 05:52 PM by blue eyed snake
typo

[Thrice Daily]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

for you its seeing/knowing

for me its compassion

 

 

You obviously feel very strongly about the persecution of your religion over the years by the church.

it’s hard to answer to it to be honest.

 

For me I don’t know so much, as it spans so many hundreds of years and I really don’t have to insight to comment on it much further. From what I gathered a lot of the persecution happened a long time after true Paganism was not so well known in its pure form (probably a lot down to the church by the sounds I know)

 

I’ll try to understand more. It was more the first few hundred years of Christianity that interested me. Before it become the Roman Catholic Church..  

 

I know a lot of sects sprang up that all had their own ideas about the whole Christ thing and it was a long while after before it became unified as one church and they decided which books to include or leave out etc (human history eh:/)

 

And how dedicated the early Christian’s were, being prepared to die for it. 
 

But yes I’d love to comment more on it from more info from your perspective, until then I can’t see it really helping conversing with you directly on the subject… 

 

My understanding of Tribes and pre Christian Paganism is vastly limited.

 

I only really understand a little through looking at the migration of Slavic language from Poland way all the way down through the old soviet block and even into Croatia. Like around the time, just bc and just ad so pretty close to Jesus Time.

 

I hear the Slavs even managed to sac a Roman City there in Croatia by dressing up as Roman soldiers to get into the city past the outer wall defences… That must have been a laugh and ballsy.

 

The Language in Croatia still has some Slavic roots, I could understand a bit, I live in Poland for 8 years now, formally a Brit   
As a result of this conquest I guess the Croatians still have some Slavic speech,  but they never advanced on Italy… Just got to Croatia… 

 

The Slavs must have had a serious Maraud to get that far… Changing all the language as they went..

 

So. Hmm. Yeah I’ll have to learn more about the Tribes their origins, migrations, histories and demises to really be able to comment more in a way I would like to with you. 
 

I was much more concentrated on what Christianity had to do to stop from being wiped out than what it actually did to get established (my bad) and what the competing forces were at the time, post 600 ad ish. 
 

So please excuse my ignorance. I’ll get there. Bit by bit…

 

regarding the white light you talk off and the paths, sounds very much like the Kabbalah idea of Ain Soph Aur. Is that a place where you have ever put any of your focus in study? 
it’s a bit too old school for me these days… 

 

One thing you might help me clarify although I might be slightly off with it, the old pagan ways and understandings names, cycles colours, paths… were they not kinda integrated into mystery schools and secret societies over the years are preserved as parts of magical rituals and rites. I believe at a certain level the church people were into that were they not, in the form of Rosicrucianism, Freemasonry and the like, they guided guided things from behind the scenes , many nestled into the church. I might be wrong here but if you know more about the preservation of paganism perhaps you could shed some light?

[stirling]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

I am supposing a Bodhisattva  does  not return as warrior class ?  They are certainly on the 'Love Ray'  IMO  .

 

Yeah... I don't think so. IF they return, they come back enlightened from the start, and perfectly placed to be of service where they are needed. If they don't come back, they still influence the causes and conditions of things in this moment.

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Thats what it takes is it to be a true Buddhist, Boddhisatva etc maybe that’s what it takes lay down one’s life and not intervene with others karma even they are suffering, I get that part too, I’ve pondered it over and over again while looking at a suffering animal, bird, wasp, even a life. Yep it’s their Karma, I get that but it’s a weak argument when it comes to defending your kid IMHO.

 

Think of it more as an ideal. It is the intent to understand and try to inhabit the viewpoint, at least before enlightenment. After, it is the embodiment of the ideal as frictionless action in the world. A bodhisattva is transparent, IS the dao, acting in complete alignment. The argument about defending your children or family is really just a thought experiment. A bodhisattva would act to limit suffering. The Dalai Lama has said, for example, that it would be OK to wound an attacker with a gun in order to stop them from harming. What matters is the INTENTION. The intention should be to limit the suffering in this case. This would be an extreme case. How often do people find themselves in such a position anyway? Deeply realized bodhisattvas don't tend to encounter such things. 

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I wrote a poem in 2010 called “the way of the vow” based on the Boddhisattva vow… I loved reading the precepts…

 

Have you read Bodhidharma's version of the precepts? They are how these things look from "emptiness" and they are mindblowing.

 

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Can I recommend a film to watch @stirling through the lense of the vows.

 

it’s called “Collateral” with Jamie Fox and Tom Cruise… 

 

If you watch it closely you will love it I think. It’s so meticulous in it’s unfolding. With This is mind

 

I'll try to check it out.

 

3 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm sorry if I caused offence in my writing I may have been too haphazard transitioning straight to warrior monk from Boddhisattva…

 

watch the film again though please. I implore you. I’ll wait to speak with you more should it be the right time 🙏 

 

Oh gosh... no offense... I just think this warrior Buddhist concept is ill conceived and misunderstands much of what is important to Mahayana Buddhism and what we are trying to achieve. Reinforcing the idea of intentionally taking on struggle of any kind is a path to endarkenment, not enlightenment.

 

If I see the movie I'll ping you.

[Thrice Daily]

4 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

The point is that "the mother church" did send priests, those who came with the message of peace and turn the other cheek mind you... accompanied by groups of soldiers to convert my people if not peacefully, then by the sword. When we did not want to be converted they crushed us down, repeatedly in the long run, until nothing was left of our religion. All this on direct orders of the church.

When we rightfully came back at them and killed some, we were the barbarians, yeah...

Where about's are you from BES?, is it Germany, Scandinavia or?

 

I'm looking at how countries got Christianized, so far it seems about 50/50 violent/non violent...

[NaturaNaturans]

@Thrice Daily you mentioned somewhere that christianity created the west… others might say it destroyed Europe.

 

"And so she opens her book with a potent description of black-robed zealots from 16 centuries ago taking iron bars to the beautiful statue of Athena in the sanctuary of Palmyra, located in modern-day Syria. Intellectuals in Antioch (in ancient Syria) were tortured and beheaded, as were the statues around them. The contemporary parallels glare. The early medieval author known as Pseudo-Jerome wrote of Christian extremists: "Because they love the name martyr and because they desire human praise more than divine charity, they kill themselves." He would have found shocking familiarity in the news of the 21st century.
Nixey closes her book with the description of another Athena, in the city of her name, being decapitated around A.D. 529, her defiled body used as a steppingstone into what was once a world-renowned school of philosophy. Athena was the deity of wisdom. The words "wisdom" and "historian" have a common ancestor, a proto-Indo-European word meaning to see things clearly. Nixey delivers this ballista-bolt of a book with her eyes wide open and in an attempt to bring light as well as heat to the sad story of intellectual monoculture and religious intolerance. Her sympathy, corruscatingly, compellingly, is with the Roman orator Symmachus: "We see the same stars, the sky is shared by all, the same world surrounds us. What does it matter what wisdom a person uses to seek for the truth?"
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/08/books/review/catherine-nixey-darkening-age.html

[Thrice Daily]

Yeah, this is no mystery to me. Order and Chaos tend to follow one another all the way through history. Here is another perspective on scenarios back then.

 

The tribes that existed before Christianity were most often warring, engaging in raids and internal quarrels. I'm willing to bet the past was as atrocious if not more atrocious to be a part of one of these tribes.  

 

Now I'm looking into the past before Christianity I'm finding a lot of violence, warring, blood feuds, i'm still about 50/50 whether it was over all good or bad?? Bit it did happen and there is no denying that. 

 

Here are some of the realities that were altered as a result, in real terms... Please don't reply back with more tales of bloodshed, all the tribes were up to that way before Christendom and as I've said in previous posts there are psychopaths and sociopaths in every walk of life.  

 

The blood thirstyness of the Romans for Gladiator games, taking the kids to see that no doubt did on going damage to generations seeing all that blood at an early age... Gladly we moved away from this passtime.. Can you guess why?

 

Here are some of the realities and how they were altered...

 

1. Western Europe

• Introduction of literacy and education: The spread of Christianity brought written language, literacy, and education to many previously illiterate tribes. Monasteries, churches, and cathedral schools became centers of learning, preserving classical knowledge, and teaching new skills. The development of Latin as a scholarly language unified various tribes under a common intellectual framework.
• Social welfare: Christian institutions promoted charity and care for the poor, sick, and needy. Monasteries often operated hospitals, orphanages, and shelters, contributing to the rise of organized social welfare systems.
• Legal systems: The influence of Christian ethics helped shape early European legal codes. The moral principles of justice, mercy, and the sanctity of life helped reform some tribal practices like vendettas or honor killings.
• Unification: Christianity provided a unifying force in fractured tribal societies. Leaders like Charlemagne in France and King Alfred in England used Christianity to bring together warring tribes and create more cohesive and centralized states.

2. Scandinavia

• End of human sacrifice and violent customs: The Christianization of the Vikings (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) led to the gradual abandonment of human sacrifices and other violent religious practices. Christian teachings on the value of human life helped reduce some of the more brutal aspects of Viking culture.
• Legal and moral frameworks: Christianity introduced more structured and ethical legal systems, reducing blood feuds and introducing concepts of justice and forgiveness into law. For example, the Icelandic Althing (parliament) embraced Christianity in the year 1000, ending internal conflict between pagan and Christian factions.
• Cultural development: Alongside the new faith came new forms of art, literature, and architecture, such as the building of cathedrals and churches, and the creation of Christian manuscripts like the Book of Kells.

3. Ireland

• Golden Age of Monasticism: Ireland became known for its monastic culture, which played a key role in preserving classical knowledge during the so-called Dark Ages. Irish monks like St. Patrick and Columba spread Christianity across the island and into Scotland, while Irish monasteries became centers of learning and artistic production (e.g., illuminated manuscripts).
• Social structure: Christianity helped reduce some of the harsh tribal customs, such as clan-based warfare and practices related to slavery. Over time, it influenced a more unified legal system, especially through the Brehon Laws, which began to incorporate Christian ethics.
• Education and scholarship: Irish monasteries also became renowned for their scholarship and played a key role in the transmission of knowledge across Europe.

4. Eastern Europe

• Cultural development: In areas like Russia, Ukraine, and Bulgaria, the introduction of Eastern Orthodox Christianity through figures like Cyril and Methodius brought the Cyrillic alphabet, leading to increased literacy and the development of national literature. The Christianization of Kievan Rus under Vladimir the Great in 988 AD marked the beginning of a unified religious and cultural identity.
• Centralized governance: Christianity often worked hand in hand with the centralization of power. For example, in Bulgaria and Serbia, it supported the rise of powerful Christian kingdoms that integrated Christian teachings into governance and law.
• Arts and architecture: Christianity led to the development of stunning Byzantine-style architecture, especially in the form of domed churches and religious art like iconography. This religious and cultural transformation left a lasting imprint on Slavic societies.

5. France

• Clovis and the Franks: The conversion of Clovis, King of the Franks, to Christianity in 496 AD helped unify the Frankish tribes under one Christian rule, providing a foundation for the future Carolingian Empire. The spread of Christianity helped pacify tribal warfare and contributed to the creation of stable kingdoms in Gaul.
• Support of the arts: Under Christian rule, the arts flourished. Monasteries became hubs of artistic creation, particularly in the form of illuminated manuscripts, religious music, and Gothic architecture.
• Moral and legal reforms: Christian influence moderated tribal customs, with a focus on Christian virtues such as charity, forgiveness, and the sanctity of marriage. The Church helped introduce reforms against polygamy and infanticide, which were common in some tribes.

6. Germanic Tribes

• Unification and centralization: The Christianization of the Germanic tribes helped unify them under larger political entities. For example, the Saxons were united under Charlemagne following their conversion, which led to the creation of the Holy Roman Empire. Christianity helped reduce internal tribal conflict by promoting a shared faith.
• Moral reformation: Christianity replaced some of the more violent aspects of Germanic tribal law, like blood feuds and revenge killings, with Christian concepts of justice, peace, and mercy.
• Scholarly and cultural growth: Germanic tribes that converted, such as the Franks and the Saxons, saw growth in literacy and education. The monastic system brought schools, libraries, and a more systematic recording of laws, customs, and history.

7. Celtic Tribes

• Preservation of culture and learning: While Christianity brought new ideas, it also helped preserve much of the Celtic cultural heritage. Celtic Christianity, which developed in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, maintained some aspects of traditional Celtic art, poetry, and culture while integrating Christian ideas.
• End of certain violent customs: Some of the tribal warfare and warrior-based culture that dominated Celtic society were softened by Christian teachings of peace, forgiveness, and community.
• Monastic contributions: Celtic monasticism played a critical role in the preservation of learning during the early medieval period, with monks creating manuscripts and spreading Christian influence across both Ireland and Britain.

8. Spain and Portugal

• Reunification: Christianity was central to the Reconquista, the process of driving out the Moors and reclaiming Iberia for Christian rule. This was a key factor in the eventual unification of Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella.
• Cultural synthesis: The Christian kingdoms of Spain and Portugal benefited from interactions with Islamic and Jewish cultures, which led to advancements in art, science, and literature. Christianized Iberia became a center of Renaissance learning.
• Education and exploration: Christian missionaries from Spain and Portugal were among the first to venture into the New World, setting the stage for global exploration and the spread of Christianity worldwide.

Thankyou for reading this part of our shared Christian history, I hope it further colours your perspective of what went down...

 

additionally re it being about 50/50 violent/non violent,,, 

1. Western Europe (Franks, Gauls, etc.)

• Mostly peaceful, though some military influence was present, particularly with leaders like Charlemagne, who used force to convert the Saxons in modern-day Germany. Overall, Christianity spread largely through alliances and royal conversions.

2. Scandinavia (Vikings: Norway, Sweden, Denmark)

• Mostly violent. The Viking kingdoms often resisted Christianity, and force was used to convert them, particularly by Christian kings like Olaf Tryggvason and Harald Bluetooth. Pagan temples were destroyed, and Christian monarchs imposed the new faith.

3. Ireland

• Mostly peaceful. The spread of Christianity in Ireland is one of the few examples of relatively peaceful conversion. St. Patrick and later missionaries worked through preaching and establishing monasteries, and Irish kings gradually accepted the new faith.

4. Eastern Europe (Russia, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc.)

• Mostly peaceful, though some coercion occurred. Conversion of Kievan Rus under Vladimir the Great involved a top-down approach, with royal decree rather than mass violence. In some cases, however, resistance led to conflict.

5. France (Franks, Gauls)

• Mostly peaceful, though political motives played a role. Clovis I's conversion was pivotal, and he used his Christian faith to unify the Franks. Charlemagne’s campaigns against the Saxons, however, were more violent in nature.

6. Germanic Tribes (Saxons, Lombards, Goths, etc.)

• Mostly violent. Tribes like the Saxons resisted Christianity, and conversions were often forced through campaigns by Charlemagne and others. Resistance to Christianization led to wars and mass executions, such as the Massacre of Verden.

7. Celtic Tribes (Scotland, Wales, Ireland)

• Mostly peaceful. Celtic Christianity spread through missionary work, particularly in Ireland and Scotland, where monasteries played a large role. There was less violent resistance compared to other regions.

8. Spain and Portugal

• Mostly peaceful, though later tied to violence during the Reconquista. Early conversions were more peaceful, driven by kings and monks. However, the Reconquista involved both religious and political conflict between Christians and Muslims.

It seems the more violent conversions were with the tribes that typically historically were already the most warlike and er violent... So it makes sense really doesn't it that there was more fighting, just directed at in coming forces rather than neighbouring lands they were trying to take a piece of land or in-fighting within the same tribe itself or factions of it, very normal stuff by the looks of it for these guys, until later...less afterwards as stated above, would like to hear your thoughts... 

Edited Monday at 06:58 PM by Thrice Daily

[NaturaNaturans]

4 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Yeah, this is no mystery to me. Order and Chaos tend to follow one another all the way through history. Here is another perspective on scenarios back then.

 

The tribes that existed before Christianity were most often warring, engaging in raids and internal quarrels. I'm willing to bet the past was as atrocious if not more atrocious to be a part of one of these tribes.  

 

Now I'm looking into the past before Christianity I'm finding a lot of violence, warring, blood feuds, i'm still about 50/50 whether it was over all good or bad?? Bit it did happen and there is no denying that. 

 

Here are some of the realities that were altered as a result, in real terms... Please don't reply back with more tales of bloodshed, all the tribes were up to that way before Christendom and as I've said in previous posts there are psychopaths and sociopaths in every walk of life.  

 

The blood thirstyness of the Romans for Gladiator games, taking the kids to see that no doubt did on going damage to generations seeing all that blood at an early age... Gladly we moved away from this passtime.. Can you guess why?

 

Here are some of the realities and how they were altered...

 

1. Western Europe

• Introduction of literacy and education: The spread of Christianity brought written language, literacy, and education to many previously illiterate tribes. Monasteries, churches, and cathedral schools became centers of learning, preserving classical knowledge, and teaching new skills. The development of Latin as a scholarly language unified various tribes under a common intellectual framework.
• Social welfare: Christian institutions promoted charity and care for the poor, sick, and needy. Monasteries often operated hospitals, orphanages, and shelters, contributing to the rise of organized social welfare systems.
• Legal systems: The influence of Christian ethics helped shape early European legal codes. The moral principles of justice, mercy, and the sanctity of life helped reform some tribal practices like vendettas or honor killings.
• Unification: Christianity provided a unifying force in fractured tribal societies. Leaders like Charlemagne in France and King Alfred in England used Christianity to bring together warring tribes and create more cohesive and centralized states.

2. Scandinavia

• End of human sacrifice and violent customs: The Christianization of the Vikings (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) led to the gradual abandonment of human sacrifices and other violent religious practices. Christian teachings on the value of human life helped reduce some of the more brutal aspects of Viking culture.
• Legal and moral frameworks: Christianity introduced more structured and ethical legal systems, reducing blood feuds and introducing concepts of justice and forgiveness into law. For example, the Icelandic Althing (parliament) embraced Christianity in the year 1000, ending internal conflict between pagan and Christian factions.
• Cultural development: Alongside the new faith came new forms of art, literature, and architecture, such as the building of cathedrals and churches, and the creation of Christian manuscripts like the Book of Kells.

3. Ireland

• Golden Age of Monasticism: Ireland became known for its monastic culture, which played a key role in preserving classical knowledge during the so-called Dark Ages. Irish monks like St. Patrick and Columba spread Christianity across the island and into Scotland, while Irish monasteries became centers of learning and artistic production (e.g., illuminated manuscripts).
• Social structure: Christianity helped reduce some of the harsh tribal customs, such as clan-based warfare and practices related to slavery. Over time, it influenced a more unified legal system, especially through the Brehon Laws, which began to incorporate Christian ethics.
• Education and scholarship: Irish monasteries also became renowned for their scholarship and played a key role in the transmission of knowledge across Europe.

4. Eastern Europe

• Cultural development: In areas like Russia, Ukraine, and Bulgaria, the introduction of Eastern Orthodox Christianity through figures like Cyril and Methodius brought the Cyrillic alphabet, leading to increased literacy and the development of national literature. The Christianization of Kievan Rus under Vladimir the Great in 988 AD marked the beginning of a unified religious and cultural identity.
• Centralized governance: Christianity often worked hand in hand with the centralization of power. For example, in Bulgaria and Serbia, it supported the rise of powerful Christian kingdoms that integrated Christian teachings into governance and law.
• Arts and architecture: Christianity led to the development of stunning Byzantine-style architecture, especially in the form of domed churches and religious art like iconography. This religious and cultural transformation left a lasting imprint on Slavic societies.

5. France

• Clovis and the Franks: The conversion of Clovis, King of the Franks, to Christianity in 496 AD helped unify the Frankish tribes under one Christian rule, providing a foundation for the future Carolingian Empire. The spread of Christianity helped pacify tribal warfare and contributed to the creation of stable kingdoms in Gaul.
• Support of the arts: Under Christian rule, the arts flourished. Monasteries became hubs of artistic creation, particularly in the form of illuminated manuscripts, religious music, and Gothic architecture.
• Moral and legal reforms: Christian influence moderated tribal customs, with a focus on Christian virtues such as charity, forgiveness, and the sanctity of marriage. The Church helped introduce reforms against polygamy and infanticide, which were common in some tribes.

6. Germanic Tribes

• Unification and centralization: The Christianization of the Germanic tribes helped unify them under larger political entities. For example, the Saxons were united under Charlemagne following their conversion, which led to the creation of the Holy Roman Empire. Christianity helped reduce internal tribal conflict by promoting a shared faith.
• Moral reformation: Christianity replaced some of the more violent aspects of Germanic tribal law, like blood feuds and revenge killings, with Christian concepts of justice, peace, and mercy.
• Scholarly and cultural growth: Germanic tribes that converted, such as the Franks and the Saxons, saw growth in literacy and education. The monastic system brought schools, libraries, and a more systematic recording of laws, customs, and history.

7. Celtic Tribes

• Preservation of culture and learning: While Christianity brought new ideas, it also helped preserve much of the Celtic cultural heritage. Celtic Christianity, which developed in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, maintained some aspects of traditional Celtic art, poetry, and culture while integrating Christian ideas.
• End of certain violent customs: Some of the tribal warfare and warrior-based culture that dominated Celtic society were softened by Christian teachings of peace, forgiveness, and community.
• Monastic contributions: Celtic monasticism played a critical role in the preservation of learning during the early medieval period, with monks creating manuscripts and spreading Christian influence across both Ireland and Britain.

8. Spain and Portugal

• Reunification: Christianity was central to the Reconquista, the process of driving out the Moors and reclaiming Iberia for Christian rule. This was a key factor in the eventual unification of Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella.
• Cultural synthesis: The Christian kingdoms of Spain and Portugal benefited from interactions with Islamic and Jewish cultures, which led to advancements in art, science, and literature. Christianized Iberia became a center of Renaissance learning.
• Education and exploration: Christian missionaries from Spain and Portugal were among the first to venture into the New World, setting the stage for global exploration and the spread of Christianity worldwide.

Thankyou for reading this part of our shared Christian history, I hope it further colours your perspective of what went down...

 

additionally re it being about 50/50 violent/non violent,,, 

1. Western Europe (Franks, Gauls, etc.)

• Mostly peaceful, though some military influence was present, particularly with leaders like Charlemagne, who used force to convert the Saxons in modern-day Germany. Overall, Christianity spread largely through alliances and royal conversions.

2. Scandinavia (Vikings: Norway, Sweden, Denmark)

• Mostly violent. The Viking kingdoms often resisted Christianity, and force was used to convert them, particularly by Christian kings like Olaf Tryggvason and Harald Bluetooth. Pagan temples were destroyed, and Christian monarchs imposed the new faith.

3. Ireland

• Mostly peaceful. The spread of Christianity in Ireland is one of the few examples of relatively peaceful conversion. St. Patrick and later missionaries worked through preaching and establishing monasteries, and Irish kings gradually accepted the new faith.

4. Eastern Europe (Russia, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc.)

• Mostly peaceful, though some coercion occurred. Conversion of Kievan Rus under Vladimir the Great involved a top-down approach, with royal decree rather than mass violence. In some cases, however, resistance led to conflict.

5. France (Franks, Gauls)

• Mostly peaceful, though political motives played a role. Clovis I's conversion was pivotal, and he used his Christian faith to unify the Franks. Charlemagne’s campaigns against the Saxons, however, were more violent in nature.

6. Germanic Tribes (Saxons, Lombards, Goths, etc.)

• Mostly violent. Tribes like the Saxons resisted Christianity, and conversions were often forced through campaigns by Charlemagne and others. Resistance to Christianization led to wars and mass executions, such as the Massacre of Verden.

7. Celtic Tribes (Scotland, Wales, Ireland)

• Mostly peaceful. Celtic Christianity spread through missionary work, particularly in Ireland and Scotland, where monasteries played a large role. There was less violent resistance compared to other regions.

8. Spain and Portugal

• Mostly peaceful, though later tied to violence during the Reconquista. Early conversions were more peaceful, driven by kings and monks. However, the Reconquista involved both religious and political conflict between Christians and Muslims.

It seems the more violent conversions were with the tribes that typically historically were already the most warlike and er violent... So it makes sense really doesn't it that there was more fighting, just directed at in coming forces rather than neighbouring lands they were trying to take a piece of land or in-fighting within the same tribe itself or factions of it, but less afterwards as stated above, would like to hear your thoughts... 

 very normal stuff by the looks of it for these guys, until later...

Well, instead of focusing on the most violent pre Christian polities, why not focus on the most violent european institution by a long shot? Namley the chatolic church.

[Thrice Daily]

The catholic church very nearly wasn't here. 

 

One of the main reasons I decided to go "all in" in favour, was because of this battle.

 

In 1571 the Ottoman Empire was threatening Europe. The Ottoman fleet was waiting in the Gulf of Patras, ready to attack Rome and other Christian territories and the Christians were seriously outnumbered. Pope Pius V asked everyone to pray the Rosary for victory, believing that prayer could help. During the battle near Greece, the Holy League's smaller fleet managed to defeat the larger Ottoman navy, which was a huge surprise, It's interesting to think about how history could have gone differently if the Ottomans had won. Would it have been better or worse for Europe?

 

The way I see it, if the powers that be, whatever governing force that flows through existence, be in divine Love or the Forever Changing Tao wanted the Church gone it would have been wiped out in this battle. 

 

For me there is a reason it wasn't and that reason is enduring, its the reason I decided not to look into becoming Orthodox, because for better or worse, the Catholic church was "Built on Jesus" through Peter as the first Pope, (I personally believe that no matter what the group even an Autocracy, someone needs to have the final say, someone has to make decisions, and the rules can change over the years, it can be alive as such)

 

It could have been wiped out in the 1500's in which case I don't think I would have got so far in my process to become Christian, the outcome of the battle helped me early on begin to dig a little deeper and find out a little more... Faith I suppose.

 

Bit like having a relationship with a person I guess, in the early stages you have to look in the right places don't you, the good aspects of the person. If you look at the bad the relationship can't grow, because there is no trust and respect.

 

There was a time when I would finish relationships because I was looking at the bad aspects and well I ended things. Different people have different relationships right? I tend to look at history for what it was, not what I would like it to have been.

 

Sure I could have probably designed a better situation for Christianity to develop and church, but thats not what happened and boy there were a lot of moving parts.  I can only work with what happened, like with a relationship with a person, the person is the person. I either work with it or I don't. Trust and Respect builds different person to person I guess. A lot of the past is shitty, I try to see how the good tallies with the bad (my ideas of good and bad of course) and take it from there seeing how history played out, and the part it plays in my life and who I am. I give thanks and try to keep my eyes open to learn more.

 

What are your thoughts on the Catholic Church @NaturaNaturans

Edited Monday at 07:33 PM by Thrice Daily

[NaturaNaturans]

6 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

The catholic church very nearly wasn't here. 

 

One of the main reasons I decided to go "all in" in favour, was because of this battle.

 

In 1571 the Ottoman Empire was threatening Europe. The Ottoman fleet was waiting in the Gulf of Patras, ready to attack Rome and other Christian territories and the Christians were seriously outnumbered. Pope Pius V asked everyone to pray the Rosary for victory, believing that prayer could help. During the battle near Greece, the Holy League's smaller fleet managed to defeat the larger Ottoman navy, which was a huge surprise, It's interesting to think about how history could have gone differently if the Ottomans had won. Would it have been better or worse for Europe?

 

The way I see it, if the powers that be, whatever governing force that flows through existence, be in divine Love or the Forever Changing Tao wanted the Church gone it would have been wiped out in this battle. 

 

For me there is a reason it wasn't and that reason is enduring, its the reason I decided not to look into becoming Orthodox, because for better or worse, the Catholic church was "Built on Jesus" through Peter as the first Pope, (I personally believe that no matter what the group even an Autocracy, someone needs to have the final say, someone has to make decisions, and the rules can change over the years, it can be alive as such)

 

It could have been wiped out in the 1500's in which case I don't think I would have got so far in my process to become Christian, the outcome of the battle helped me early on begin to dig a little deeper and find out a little more... Faith I suppose.

Following Your logic, was it Gods will that made the lutherans victorious in the 30 years war?

[NaturaNaturans]

25 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

What are your thoughts on the Catholic Church @NaturaNaturans

Allow me to qoute Nietzche:

 

    “All that once was evil is now good; all that once was good is now evil. They seek to transvalue all values – they are the ones who break the tables of old values, the breakers, the lawbreakers; they are the creators.”: 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

In addition, the idea of a middle man (mr pope) is so unchristian as it could be.

[NaturaNaturans]

34 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

What are your thoughts on the Catholic Church @NaturaNaturans

So summarized, wolves in sheeps clothing

[Thrice Daily]

2 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Allow me to qoute Nietzche:

 

    “All that once was evil is now good; all that once was good is now evil. They seek to transvalue all values – they are the ones who break the tables of old values, the breakers, the lawbreakers; they are the creators.”: 

 

I'm more into the Christians than the church itself. They say its the human souls that make the mystical body of Christ, not the church, does that make sense? It seems Christians are the only ones standing up to the Lies and Hypocrisy in our times. Tucker Carlson, RFK, Patrick Bet David, Chris Cuomo, Candice Owens, even Russel Brand. The people they try to cancel and that get many death threats, They have my endorsement, those standing up to big food, big pharma, and the military industrial complex etc these are the brave ones. I'm not into Gates and Comilla and Cheney , I think these are more in toe with what you are saying, trying to rewrite truth and push death and destruction, not modern Christians, right here right now...

[NaturaNaturans]

Just now, Thrice Daily said:

I'm more into the Christians than the church itself. They say its the human souls that make the mystical body of Christ, not the church, does that make sense? It seems Christians are the only ones standing up to the Lies and Hypocrisy in our times. Tucker Carlson, RFK, Patrick Bet David, Chris Cuomo, Candice Owens, even Russel Brand. The people they try to cancel and that get many death threats, They have my endorsement, those standing up to big food, big pharma, and the military industrial complex etc these are the brave ones. I'm not into Gates and Comilla and Cheney , I think these are more in toe with what you are saying, trying to rewrite truth and push death and destruction, not modern Christians, right here right now...

Yes, that makes sense. I have no issue with Christ. I have an issue with those who pretend to speak for him.

[NaturaNaturans]

Let me Ask you the same question, what are Your thoughts on lutheranism?

 

Lutheranism advocates a doctrine of justification "by Grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone", the doctrine that scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith. This contrasts with the belief of the Roman Catholic Church, defined at the Council of Trent, which contends that final authority comes from both Scripture and tradition.[3]

 

@Thrice Daily

Edited Monday at 07:57 PM by NaturaNaturans

[Thrice Daily]

47 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Let me Ask you the same question, what are Your thoughts on lutheranism?

 

Lutheranism advocates a doctrine of justification "by Grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone", the doctrine that scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith. This contrasts with the belief of the Roman Catholic Church, defined at the Council of Trent, which contends that final authority comes from both Scripture and tradition.[3]

 

@Thrice Daily

Good question, me personally I align with this. I've had to resolve all of my issues with scripture alone, I cannot and will not be told how to think if it hasn't yet made sense to me, I can't accept it. My faith has unrolled more like the early desert fathers I think, in my own little way, and its been confirmed to me step by step through mystical insight in prayer. Solo practice Grace alone Faith alone, yes it makes sense. (but that is just all in me, no community, no service to others etc, the catholic church has been showing me that)

 

I agree with almost all of the Lutheranism apart from that there is no formal exorcism. I'm also open to the more supernatural idea of transubstantiation of bread and wine and the prayer with the saints works, as well as praying to Mary as in catholic church. (these ideas have grown on me due to many reasons over the past few years) 

 

My experience of the Catholic Church is of a certain flavour. I watched in the 80's and then the 90's in the UK the church dwindled away, as did the family unit. The community spirit I saw at Church watching my grandfather as a young child in his Sunday best , connecting with the community was no more. I watched as the UK was filled with more unrest, teenage violence, drugs, breakdown of nuclear family etc

 

Then I moved to Poland, the church is still alive here and is organized in the community, does charity for the disabled, for single moms and things, the parishes are active and the people here respect community, its very safe at nigh even in parks, teenage couples hold hands, the groups are not threatening or looking for trouble. The grandmothers pray each day and still care about their family connections deeply when they become grand parents, they still connect, cook soup etc, its old school here... And it works, low crime very safe, good kids. Polite people.

 

Now a lot of people take it for granted here, its all they know. I can see clearly, wow, this is what the positivity of having a strong church system functioning in a community with regular masses can do. I see the connections, and I have to respect it.. 

 

So from someone having family I personally want more of it. The priests i have met here are good and kind, they work hard and care and because there is life in the parish they are happy and upbeat, they are not downtrodden and engulfed in fighting a losing battle, they have the support of community. They visit schools , help takes kids on walks. Kids respect them. Its a totally different thing than what I'm used to . Its a caring environment and I'm lucky to see what Christianity can actually offer, when most people are unified in it (72% Polish are Roman Catholic. 25 years ago it was 90%)

 

They still have many of the older observances and prayers around different holidays. Its nice, the kids get to play together have food, it's functionalism. I like functionalism. You know where you are with it, it makes sense. But I'm a Dad so I will say that. I think safe is good, not boring  

 

The Catholic Church at the top may well be a different story I don't look there, I pray for them, for all of them. The church at the bottom here still looks good. Not like in the UK. It is forgotten and rotted away.

 

Where are you based?

 

 

Edited Monday at 08:45 PM by Thrice Daily

[NaturaNaturans]

9 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Where are you based?

Norway

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Norway

But Norway is no Island my Friend, and thankfully we have a large polish community. Second biggest minority after swedes I belive.

[Thrice Daily]

lovely, i've never been but I hear nice things.

[NaturaNaturans]

1 minute ago, Thrice Daily said:

lovely, i've never been but I hear nice things.

Come come. We go to poland all the time. We are only an hour away after all.

[Apech]

Everything was lovely till the Christians turned up:

 

[NaturaNaturans]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

Everything was lovely till the Christians turned up:

 

Well, they had their way of Life. I am not sure if being turned in to slaves, tortured til they accepted christ and seing their cities burned down made their Life any better

Edited Monday at 09:48 PM by NaturaNaturans