Christianity

[Nungali]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

No I missed it!  Very disappointed.

 

Damn !  .... you could have followed it .

 

[old3bob]

 

"... he sank beneath your wisdom like a stone..."

 

 

Edited May 19 by old3bob

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Damn !  .... you could have followed it .

 

it would be a long way to go just to see another dead dinosaur 🦕 

[Nungali]

Ughhh .... Leonard Cohen .   Nope.

[Nungali]

Just now, Apech said:

it would be a long way to go just to see another dead dinosaur 🦕 

 

I cant wait till this one spreads across the internet ;

 

 " Dinosaurs where alive until the time of  Jesus ..... new evidence just in !  "

 

Or I coulld be too late already .... half a mo'  ....

 

Yep, I am WAAAAAY  to late on that one !

 

    

[Taomeow]

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Any tips for where to go these days when you want to expand your knowledge?

 

In terms of Google alternatives, there aren't many and they aren't perfect and are more or less going down the same path, though not all have arrived yet.  I used to go to DuckDuckGo but it's turned into something nearly indistinguishable from Google.   You can still fish out some useful stuff from MetaGer.  Even ChatGPT can deliver if you are sly enough in the way you formulate your inquiry -- e.g. instead of "alternative treatments for _XYZ_" ask it "what debunked alternative treatments for _XYX_ can you find?"  Other than that, it's still good old books, and original scientific articles, and a closer look at who paid for them, and independent journalists, and throwing your net far and wide, and knowing other languages...  what not.  

 

E.g. on the subject of Christianity, the book that I found pretty educational once upon a time was "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln.  First published in England in the 1980s I think.  The idea someone mentioned here that Mary was the original Jesus probably comes from that book, which was impressively researched as I recall...  though I'm no historian (especially of Christianity) and wouldn't place any bets.  

Edited May 20 by Taomeow

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

In terms of Google alternatives, there aren't many and they aren't perfect and are more or less going down the same path, though not all have arrived yet.  I used to go to DuckDuckGo but it's turned into something nearly indistinguishable from Google.   You can still fish out some useful stuff from MetaGer.  Even ChatGPT can deliver if you are sly enough in the way you formulate your inquiry -- e.g. instead of "alternative treatments for _XYZ_" ask it "what debunked alternative treatments for _XYX_ can you find?"  Other than that, it's still good old books, and original scientific articles, and a closer look at who paid for them, and independent journalists, and throwing your net far and wide, and knowing other languages...  what not.  

 

E.g. on the subject of Christianity, the book that I found pretty educational once upon a time was "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln.  First published in England in the 1980s I think.  The idea someone mentioned here that Mary was the original Jesus probably comes from that book, which was impressively researched as I recall...  though I'm no historian (especially of Christianity) and wouldn't place any bets.  

It was that book that Dan Brown ripped off in The Da Vinci Code.

 

 

[Taomeow]

30 minutes ago, Apech said:

It was that book that Dan Brown ripped off in The Da Vinci Code.

 

 

 

Didn't know that, but then, I never made it through that book.  I've lowered my criteria ever since audiobooks became prominent, having listened to more trash since 2020 than I've ever read in all of my previous life (a great tool for when you are too lazy or too tired to meditate but want your own mind to shut up and take a nap), but Dan Brown never made it through my remaining trash filters.  I lowered the bar enough for The Game of Thrones etc., but the buck has to stop somewhere. 

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Didn't know that, but then, I never made it through that book.  I've lowered my criteria ever since audiobooks became prominent, having listened to more trash since 2020 than I've ever read in all of my previous life (a great tool for when you are too lazy or too tired to meditate but want your own mind to shut up and take a nap), but Dan Brown never made it through my remaining trash filters.  I lowered the bar enough for The Game of Thrones etc., but the buck has to stop somewhere. 

Dan Brown is completely awful - almost unreadably absurd.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Dan Brown is completely awful - almost unreadably absurd.

 

We're on the same page.  

[Mark Foote]

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

These are the carved foot prints that show nail hole scars ????

 

They are just stylized marks to show the main outlines on the soles of the feet  , the arch and the crease behind the ball of the foot .

 

Jeeze man !

 

Anyway, at least you got another chance to cite  how once in a while, you know, Zen gets up and walks around .

 

Well, they don't let tourists into that tomb anymore.  I can't tell anything from the photo, either, but I was hoping whoever wrote that website got a closer look, and that the photo might at least say that it's possible.

Just another long-haired hippie from the west, that landed in Kashmir and earned himself a tomb in 89 A.D..

Dogen wrote "although actualized immediately, what is inconceivable may not be apparent".  That's his version of "sometimes zazen gets up and walks around".  I've been sparing everybody Dogen's remarks, but here you go:

 

10.

Here is the place; here the way unfolds. The boundary of realization is not distinct, for the
realization comes forth simultaneously with the full experience of buddha dharma. Do not
suppose that what you attain becomes your knowledge and is grasped by your intellect. Although
actualized immediately, what is inconceivable may not be apparent. Its emergence is beyond
your knowledge.
11.
Mayu, Zen Master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the
nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why then do you fan
yourself?”
“Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not
understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.”
“What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again.
Mayu just kept fanning himself.
The monk bowed deeply.
12.
The actualization of the buddha dharma, the vital path of its authentic transmission, is like this. If
you say that you do not need to fan yourself because the nature of wind is permanent and you
can have wind without fanning, you will understand neither permanence nor the nature of wind.
The nature of wind is permanent; because of that, the wind of the buddha’s house brings forth the
gold of the earth and ripens the cream of the long river.

Written around mid-autumn, the first year of the Tempuku Era [1233], and given to my lay
student Koshu Yo of Kyushu Island. Revised in the fourth year of the Kencho Era [1252].
--Translation by Kazuaki Tanahashi
 

 

Isn't it better to just say, "sometimes zazen fans the person doing zazen"? 

 

It's a difficult topic to address, and as Kobun said:
 

It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it.

(“Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48)

 

 

From the post I'm working on now:

 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

... I have found that zazen is more likely to “get up and walk around” when the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an active extension of compassion, an extension beyond the boundaries of the senses. Perhaps that’s why my friend thinks of consciousness as pervading the entire universe.

 

Or perhaps he’s just tuned in to the state of concentration that was known to Gautama the Buddha as “the infinity of consciousness”.  “The infinity of consciousness” was described as a “further state”, to be attained by “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of compassion and sympathetic joy beyond the limits of the senses. 

 

Nevertheless, when Gautama addressed the wanderer Udayin, he said:

 

Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel… is strung on a thread, blue-green… or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine… is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away… and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there….

 

(MN II 17, Pali Text Society vol II p 217)

 

 

So there's yer compulsory long quotation from the Pali sermons, Nungali.

 

Right now, the tomb is apparently looked after by devout Muslim families, who of course look nothing like Israelic families, and who don't like tourists around the tomb:

 

Yes, locals warned me that Sunni Muslims around do not like the idea of tourists visiting, so I had to dress up like locals & managed to reach this blessed tomb. There are warnings not to take video or photos & tomb is closed. 

 

(Trip Advisor, https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g297623-d3704970-r378435732-Roza_Bal_Shrine-Srinagar_Srinagar_District_Kashmir_Jammu_and_Kashmir.html)

 

 

The blessed tomb... bless its little heart...

 

 

Edited May 20 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 5/18/2024 at 3:15 PM, Nungali said:

 

... Then some weird linking to the top of the pole  ( that you made ) .

Then references to some practice about the top of the pole  that Shishuang made 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

(Apech, on "what made YOU laugh today" thread yesterday)

 

  

 

Quote

Nungali response to above, posted 23 hours ago
^ Mouse 'on top of 100 ft pole'  could see his way out .

 

 

 

Long quote from Pali sermons, hold your nose, Nungali:
 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.
 

… imagine a pool with a spring, but no water-inlet on the east side or the west side or on the north or on the south, and suppose the (rain-) deva supply not proper rains from time to time–cool waters would still well up from that pool, and that pool would be steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with the cold water so that not a drop but would be pervaded by the cold water; in just the same way… (one) steeps (their) body with zest and ease…
 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.
 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity…  

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

The step off the pole is between the third state above and the fourth. A summation of my experience, so far:

 

I wrote to a friend:

 

The striking thing to me about my experience on the cushion these days is that I am practicing some kind of scales, as it were.  Gautama outlined the feeling of four states, the initial three and then the “purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind”, the fourth.  

 

I’ve described that “pureness of mind” as what remains when “doing something” ceases, and I wrote:

 

When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.
 

 

The rest of the scales are looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised).
 

 

In the months since I wrote my friend, I’ve had some time to reflect. There are some things I would add, on my practice of “scales”.

 

Gautama spoke of suffusing the body with “zest and ease” in the first concentration:

 

 … (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19)

 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.

 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

 

Gautama taught that zest ceases in the third concentration, while the feeling of ease continues:

 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’  

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25;  Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

That’s a recommendation of the third concentration, especially for long periods. Nevertheless, I find that the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention. As I wrote in my last post:
 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration.

 

Shunryu Suzuki said:
 

To enjoy our life– complicated life, difficult life– without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen.  

 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco)

 

I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

Edited May 20 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

well how about that...

 

 

[Daniel]

On 5/18/2024 at 2:11 PM, liminal_luke said:

 

I think of Jewish observance -- praying, studying Torah, keeping Shabbat, etc -- as practices meant to cultivate a person spiritually in a way that´s analogous to meditation in Buddhism.

 

If you are saying there is a correspondence, I trust your judgement.  I would also add that the practice, if executed regularly, includes grounding so that the individual is much less likely to lose their sense of self and context ( who, where, and when ).

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

If you are saying there is a correspondence, I trust your judgement.  I would also add that the practice, if executed regularly, includes grounding so that the individual is much less likely to lose their sense of self and context ( who, where, and when ).

 

In both Judaism and Buddhism there are paths running up mountains.  Whether or not these practice paths are ultimately ascending the same or different mountains is an open question.

[Daniel]

On 5/15/2024 at 7:14 PM, Apech said:

Why is Christianity such a strange religion? 

 

I wouldn't call it strange, but, I can understand why one would feel that way.

 

On 5/15/2024 at 7:14 PM, Apech said:

When you are confronted by it there are several things you are expected to accept:

 

- there is a supreme being who created the universe

- this being impregnated a virgin 

- the child grew up to perform miracles and so on

- he was crucified, died and then rose from the dead

 

Each of these are intended to line up with previously accepted Jewish prophecies.  However, the original prophecies are very different than how modern mainstream Christianity aggregates them.

 

Here's a good example regarding the "virgin" birth.  "Virgin" is in quotes because the original prophecy does not include a virgin.

 

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/chapter-18f-virgin-misconception-myth

 

Also, mainstream Christianity uses a method for prophecy interpretation called "Pesher".  The intent is to reveal a hidden prophecy which is scrambled and scattered throughout various texts.  Using Pesher to interpret prophecy permits a great deal of strangeness.

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

In both Judaism and Buddhism there are paths running up mountains.  Whether or not these practice paths are ultimately ascending the same or different mountains is an open question.

 

If you are referring to the structure of our morning prayer service, I certainly agree that there is a "mountain" being climbed.  The ascension ( communion / reunion ) is real.

 

In Buddhism, the traveler realizes the path, the destination, and the journey, are all literally equivalent such that the feelings which indicate motion and ascension are illusory?

 

If so, they seem to be inverses in the category of alternative states of consciousness or awareness.

 

Edited May 21 by Daniel

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I wouldn't call it strange, but, I can understand why one would feel that way.

 

 

Each of these are intended to line up with previously accepted Jewish prophecies.  However, the original prophecies are very different than how modern mainstream Christianity aggregates them.

 

Here's a good example regarding the "virgin" birth.  "Virgin" is in quotes because the original prophecy does not include a virgin.

 

https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/chapter-18f-virgin-misconception-myth

 

Also, mainstream Christianity uses a method for prophecy interpretation called "Pesher".  The intent is to reveal a hidden prophecy which is scrambled and scattered throughout various texts.  Using Pesher to interpret prophecy permits a great deal of strangeness.

 

So the original prophesy refers to a young woman but the Gospel writers thought this meant a virgin 'intacto' and so they made up the story that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Christ?  Because presumably they wanted to show that Jesus fulfilled prophesy and was indeed the messiah who was foretold.

 

That's quite interesting because there is quite a lot a vagueness about the Jesus family - for instance I don't think we get told what happened to Joseph, while Mary remains quite prominent.  Also Jesus is supposed to have brothers James and Judas (not Iscariot another one) - and also there is some suggestion that because Thomas means twin and he was called Thomas Didymus (also means twin) that he was also a (possibly even twin) brother of Christ also.  In the Gospel of John Jesus tells him (John) to look after Mary as his own mother.  

 

Given there was a Jesus family, and possibly quite a lot of them, (although James is martyred ) what happened to the others and where did they go?  I think most of the apostles are crucified except John who presumably whisked Mary away to safety.  Which brings us to the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail idea that there is a hidden bloodline of Jesus somewhere in Europe.  I find this idea very appealing but one wonders what they have been up to for 2000 years.

 

I am also quite keen on the mystery Jesus which actually picks up on some ancient myths concerning the sacrificed/wounded king - and pop up again in the High Middle ages in Arthurian myth (the Fisher King).  Historically true or not there's no doubt that the Jesus story taps in to some deep narrative themes which underpin European culture.  The same narratives which Tolkien tried to revive in his works LOTR etc.

 

 

Edited May 21 by Apech

[old3bob]

lets see, we can't nail down the Great Tao, we can't nail down Buddha nature, we can't nail down the Self, we can't nail down mysticism,  the we can't nail down the absolute, and btw the way neither we can nail down Jesus.  (and I'm not saying they are all the same which would be a new age nail and hammer)

[Apech]

9 minutes ago, old3bob said:

lets see, we can't nail down the Great Tao, we can't nail down Buddha nature, we can't nail down the Self, we can't nail down mysticism,  the we can't nail down the absolute, and btw the way neither we can nail down Jesus.  (and I'm not saying they are all the same which would be a new age nail and hammer)

by all accounts Jesus did get himself nailed down.

[old3bob]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

by all accounts Jesus did get himself nailed down.

 

well now, as Mark might say he got up and walked away from the cross.

Edited May 21 by old3bob

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

lets see, we can't nail down the Great Tao, we can't nail down Buddha nature, we can't nail down the Self, we can't nail down mysticism,  the we can't nail down the absolute, and btw the way neither we can nail down Jesus.  (and I'm not saying they are all the same which would be a new age nail and hammer)

 

Actually, it is possible to nail down Buddha Nature. There is a teaching on precisely this point in Bön called The Twenty One Nails. Each “nail” is a teaching on one aspect of Buddha Nature intended to support realization. When we “get it” we gain a degree of irreversible certainty in our view and practice that is the basis for using the “nail” metaphor. On the dzogchen path, the most important step is to develop certainty in the view and practice, to nail it down. This is the meaning of direct introduction.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

by all accounts Jesus did get himself nailed down.

 

… or nailed up, in his case.

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

well now, as Mark might say he got up and walked away from the cross.
 

 

I do like to think that he wound up a carpenter in Kashmir.

& I do like to think that the words recorded in the Gospel of Thomas are his:

 

They said to Him: Shall we then, being children,
enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them:
When you make the two one, and
when you make the inner as the outer
and the outer as the inner and the above
as the below, and when
you make the male and the female into a single one,
so that the male will not be male and
the female (not) be female, when you make
eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand
in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place
of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image,
then shall you enter [the Kingdom].

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

 

"Eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot"--"just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease."

 

"an image in the place of an image"--"(one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind."

 

Jesus, like Gautama, spoke of himself in an odd fashion.  That I think for both of them was a result of their attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", the condition associated with Gautama's insight into the nature of suffering. 

 

Gautama taught the further states culminating in "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", but for the most part he finished his descriptions of concentration with the fourth of the initial states, followed by a description of the "survery-sign" of the concentration (an overview of the body).  

Most of what passes for enlightenment is the ability to utilize the "survey-sign" to touch on activity of the body solely by virtue of the location of consciousness, "purity by the pureness of mind", as called upon.  

Jesus finished his description above with "an image in the place of an image", but he certainly taught the compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity that are the basis for the first three of Gautama's further states, and the way he referred to himself speaks to his personal attainment of the signless state.  

 

Edited May 21 by Mark Foote

[Apech]

I would remind the celebrated souls of DaoBums that we have a thread on the gospel of Thomas