Very unpopular opinions

[Apech]

I think I should perhaps mention that the purpose of my 'Unpopular Opinions' threads - of which this is the third I think - is for us all to post ideas which might challenge the mainstream or just amuse so that we can all debate them.  It's not meant to just be me holding forth with my wacky views.  So please feel free to post your own unpopular opinions.

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

His take on the 12 steps of dependent origination is poor to say the least - even modern Buddhologists say so.

 

It's a meditation manual, it's not detailed commentary on the Abhidhamma. Also it's mandatory reading for 1st year monks in most monasteries. It's definitely well respected.

Some interpretations of 12 links popular on the west are actually not practiced in monastic communities, and the view is skewed in the west on those topics ( eg Goenkas interpretation, and his resulting vipassana is not practiced ).

 

Keep in mind Theravada is not one solid block. Thai vs the rest has differences, and there is finer granularity after that split .

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

I think I should perhaps mention that the purpose of my 'Unpopular Opinions' threads - of which this is the third I think - is for us all to post ideas which might challenge the mainstream or just amuse so that we can all debate them.  It's not meant to just be me holding forth with my wacky views.  So please feel free to post your own unpopular opinions.

 

 

 

 

A speculation of mine is that Dzogchen is of Shamanic origins ( not a practitioner myself, nor do I have evidence, this is speculative ).

 

Another speculation is that the Buddha did use something like direct pointing of the mind to his close students.

He was too smart to miss something like that, but of course I can't know for sure 

[Maddie]

Your unpopular opinion thread is proving to be quite popular lol. 

[Maddie]

38 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I've never practiced Theravada so perhaps I shouldn't comment.  I am sure there is a lot of good in it and a good fit for many.  When I was researching the history of Buddhism the work of certain bhikshus was very useful, sincere and well researched.  But I never found it attractive as a vehicle for my work ... but this may be a personal thing.  I think originally this is how it was and according to the testimony of Chinese Buddhsts visiting India it was the case that monks in same monastery would practice sutrayana and mahayana side by side.  It is thought that mahayana was at one time just a monority practice in many communities which grew in popularity over time to gradually replace the sravaka tradition.  There was no schism just a gradual growing apart over time.

 

 

 

Theravada was my primary introduction into Buddhism, and I do  think there is a lot of good in it for sure, I just didn't find the claims that it was practically synonymous with early Buddhism to be completely accurate. 

[snowymountains]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Theravada was my primary introduction into Buddhism, and I do  think there is a lot of good in it for sure, I just didn't find the claims that it was practically synonymous with early Buddhism to be completely accurate. 

 

Theravada's strength is also its weakness, very detailed meditation instructions. It does not say that after you learn the meditations you should practice then exactly like that , so it doesn't discourage tailoring them to yourself later.

But in group sessions exactly because they're very structured one can only follow the structure.

While in other practices with less structure, group sessions can be more freeform.

 

I doubt the Buddha had very rigid structures in mind but instead gave very analytical meditation instructions to avoid misunderstandings on what they're about and also as an education tool.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Theravada's strength is also its weakness, very detailed meditation instructions. It does not say that after you learn the meditations you should practice then exactly like that , so it doesn't discourage tailoring them to yourself later.

But in group sessions exactly because they're very structured one can only follow the structure.

While in other practices with less structure, group sessions can be more freeform.

 

I doubt the Buddha had very rigid structures in mind but instead gave very analytical meditation instructions to avoid misunderstandings on what they're about and also as an education tool.

 

Yes, my early experiences with Theravada meditation instruction seemed to be quite rigid and I found that the way I was being taught didn't work for me. It was after I found a way that worked for me that things improved. 

[liminal_luke]

If all your political opinions line up squarely with the position statement of one political party or candidate, you´re not thinking independently enough.

 

A more economical way to give dishes the umami kick of anchovies is to use fermented shrimp paste.  

 

In the present cultural climate, with it´s overemphasis on being "self-made," to call someone priveledged is a slur.  I don´t believe in hierarchies of suffering.  We all come into the present moment with complex histories, intricate webs of advantages and disadvantages in life.  It´s impossible to say that one person is priveledged based solely on the groups they belong to.

 

Most people will not be harmed by mixing and matching qigong practices.  

 

The best spiritual practices are boring.

 

It´s a courtesy not to engage servers in conversation so that they can do their jobs rather than chitchat with the hopes of getting better tips.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

If all your political opinions line up squarely with the position statement of one political party or candidate, you´re not thinking independently enough.

 

The gulag awaits you, comrade.

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

A more economical way to give dishes the umami kick of anchovies is to use fermented shrimp paste.  

 

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

In the present cultural climate, with it´s overemphasis on being "self-made," to call someone priveledged is a slur.  I don´t believe in hierarchies of suffering.  We all come into the present moment with complex histories, intricate webs of advantages and disadvantages in life.  It´s impossible to say that one person is priveledged solely on the groups they belong to.

 

True.

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Most people will not be harmed by mixing and matching qigong practices.  

 

That implies that some will be.  I wonder what comprises a good qi gong practice and how would another be harmful?

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

The best spiritual practices are boring.

 

Can you explain why?

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s a courtesy not to engage servers in conversation so that they can do their jobs rather than chitchat with the hopes of getting better tips.  

 

 

 

 

 

Don't talk to the servers!

 

[snowymountains]

15 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

If all your political opinions line up squarely with the position statement of one political party or candidate, you´re not thinking independently enough.

 

A more economical way to give dishes the umami kick of anchovies is to use fermented shrimp paste.  

 

In the present cultural climate, with it´s overemphasis on being "self-made," to call someone priveledged is a slur.  I don´t believe in hierarchies of suffering.  We all come into the present moment with complex histories, intricate webs of advantages and disadvantages in life.  It´s impossible to say that one person is priveledged based solely on the groups they belong to.

 

Most people will not be harmed by mixing and matching qigong practices.  

 

The best spiritual practices are boring.

 

It´s a courtesy not to engage servers in conversation so that they can do their jobs rather than chitchat with the hopes of getting better tips.  

 

 

 

 

 

That's a different discussion though, not what was closer to original Buddhism but how would you design a practice today ( would the Buddha e.g. today ignore all that neuroscience knowledge and do exactly what he did 2500 yrs ago ).

We're not discussing best practices, nor breadth vs depth.

Edited May 23 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

19 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

Yes, my early experiences with Theravada meditation instruction seemed to be quite rigid and I found that the way I was being taught didn't work for me. It was after I found a way that worked for me that things improved. 

 

Their logic is learn the analytical instructions and later you can make your own variations.

Where this logic breaks is group practice, because there people need to be in sync, if anything regarding the time-blocks where they do a meditation session.

[Maddie]

51 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

The best spiritual practices are boring.

 

I would also say more "spiritual" people for lack of a better word seem to be quite plain. Chop wood carry water. 

[Nungali]

Chop wood, carry water   ..... and somehow get my phone recharged  

[liminal_luke]

@Apech

 

Why are the best spiritual practices boring?  

 

Hmmm...maybe it´s not so much that the best spiritual practices are boring, but rather that people shouldn´t be advised to stop a particular practice because of boredom.  Spiritual practice can certainly have great peak moments, so it´s not as if it´s all a misery.  Perhaps spiritual cultivation is analogous to journeying through all the layers of the earth´s crust to the very center.  Being at the center isn´t necessarily boring -- it can feel great or super scary or just peaceful -- but to get there one has to go through a huge layer of boredom right underneath the surface.  The surface of the earth is where all the Netflix programming is -- very entertaining but if you want to get to the center ya gotta go through the boredom.  

 

Sitting in silence isn´t boring if you are in the quiet center of your mind.  But if you are a newbie somewhere between that center and Netflix-land, then yeah, you might be bored.  Doesn´t mean that sitting in silence isn´t a good thing to do.

Edited May 24 by liminal_luke

[Maddie]

46 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Chop wood, carry water   ..... and somehow get my phone recharged  

 

Well those selfies aren't going to take and post themselves are they? LOL 🫣

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

I have no idea ...can they???

 

I think it’s a great question.

I don’t have an answer nor enough education to feel good about an opinion.

 

Bön teachings touch something in my heart, from my first contact. Buddhist masters often speak more to my mind. The Bön teachings I’ve received have been heavy on metaphor, parable, and pith and there’s a close human connection. In Buddhism I’ve mostly read Longchenpa, and a handful of others, with no personal connection,  so it’s likely just selection bias on my part. I think individual teachers are an equally significant factor. The old and new are syncretic as are the individual traditions at this point.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Why are the best spiritual practices boring? 

 

Sorry to intrude but spiritual practices are boring because you’re not doing anything else. If meditation is boring do it with Netflix or a nice meal. Do it with your partner and when you floss. One caveat. When you bring it off the mat, boredom is replaced by frustration, so like they says, no one said it was easy to break the cycle of rebirth.

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

but I think this is unlikely

yes me too

6 hours ago, Apech said:

the Buddha was the Tathagata - 'thus gone one' and so it was an artistic device to show that although he was present ... he was also beyond 'self' and thus shown as a void.

my guess is that he was always represented both in human form and in a symbolic form. It was the modern scholars who, under a false theory of progress, ascribed the symbolic form to the early stage and the human form to the later stage. Also, quite naturally, the early human likenesses of a budding religion were much fewer in number and few are preserved due to older age.

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@Apech

 

Why are the best spiritual practices boring?  

 

Hmmm...maybe it´s not so much that the best spiritual practices are boring, but rather that people shouldn´t be advised to stop a particular practice because of boredom.  Spiritual practice can certainly have great peak moments, so it´s not as if it´s all a misery.  Perhaps spiritual cultivation is analogous to journeying through all the layers of the earth´s crust to the very center.  Being at the center isn´t necessarily boring -- it can feel great or super scary or just peaceful -- but to get there one has to go through a huge layer of boredom right underneath the surface.  The surface of the earth is where all the Netflix programming is -- very entertaining but if you want to get to the center ya gotta go through the boredom.  

 

Sitting in silence isn´t boring if you are in the quiet center of your mind.  But if you are a newbie somewhere between that center and Netflix-land, then yeah, you might be bored.  Doesn´t mean that sitting in silence isn´t a good thing to do.

 

It takes a certain type of personality to systematically engage in meditative and spiritual practices. Those who do it long term enjoy it.

 

It's impossible to maintain a long term practice because of "shoulds" and "musts", or just because of a spiritual promise seen in scripture.

 

Only people who genuinely enjoy it can stick around, and that's fine, people should do what they want, without internalising shoulds from others or scripture.

[liminal_luke]

8 hours ago, steve said:

 

Sorry to intrude but spiritual practices are boring because you’re not doing anything else. If meditation is boring do it with Netflix or a nice meal. Do it with your partner and when you floss. One caveat. When you bring it off the mat, boredom is replaced by frustration, so like they says, no one said it was easy to break the cycle of rebirth.

 

2 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

It takes a certain type of personality to systematically engage in meditative and spiritual practices. Those who do it long term enjoy it.

 

It's impossible to maintain a long term practice because of "shoulds" and "musts", or just because of a spiritual promise seen in scripture.

 

Only people who genuinely enjoy it can stick around, and that's fine, people should do what they want, without internalising shoulds from others or scripture.

 

Good points, both.  My opinion about good spiritual practices being boring was more of an intuitive hunch than something I had a well thought out basis for, so when apech asked me why I was a bit stymied.  Didn´t stop me from reverse engineering an answer though!  Clearly there are lots of non-boring moments on the spiritual path.  I do think that boredom is an underappreciated state of mind that can be productively embraced rather than turned away from.  

[doc benway]

28 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

Good points, both.  My opinion about good spiritual practices being boring was more of an intuitive hunch than something I had a well thought out basis for, so when apech asked me why I was a bit stymied.  Didn´t stop me from reverse engineering an answer though!  Clearly there are lots of non-boring moments on the spiritual path.  I do think that boredom is an underappreciated state of mind that can be productively embraced rather than turned away from.  

 

I resonate with your response as well. All states of mind can teach us something about ourselves. Boredom is no exception. 

[Taomeow]

15 hours ago, Apech said:

So please feel free to post your own unpopular opinions.

 

 

Boredom is a prison, a solitary confinement that can lock you up anytime, anywhere -- at a cheerful and seemingly eventful party, while working on a world-changing technology, while interrogating criminals, while painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.  To say nothing of sitting in traffic, studying for the test in a subject of no interest to you, flipping hamburgers, sewing countless t-shirts or manning the assembly line.  Boredom can have the face of your wife or husband, of your parents, co-workers, teachers, TV presenters and politicians with their same old same old, the face of your life.  Being sick is boring, being poor and unable to afford anything is boring, being filthy rich and able to afford anything gets excruciatingly boring fast, being smart bores you with your own wits that turn into a boring routine, being dumb is boring but you don't know why 'cause you're too dumb to understand. 

 

Civilization is boring.     

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Boredom is a prison, a solitary confinement that can lock you up anytime, anywhere -- at a cheerful and seemingly eventful party, while working on a world-changing technology, while interrogating criminals, while painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.  To say nothing of sitting in traffic, studying for the test in a subject of no interest to you, flipping hamburgers, sewing countless t-shirts or manning the assembly line.  Boredom can have the face of your wife or husband, of your parents, co-workers, teachers, TV presenters and politicians with their same old same old, the face of your life.  Being sick is boring, being poor and unable to afford anything is boring, being filthy rich and able to afford anything gets excruciatingly boring fast, being smart bores you with your own wits that turn into a boring routine, being dumb is boring but you don't know why 'cause you're too dumb to understand. 

 

Civilization is boring.     

 

Bored but not broken, we the DaoBums shuffle along,

While high above the Big Gay Disco Glitter ball spins ever on.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

20 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Boredom is a prison, a solitary confinement that can lock you up anytime, anywhere -- at a cheerful and seemingly eventful party, while working on a world-changing technology, while interrogating criminals, while painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.  To say nothing of sitting in traffic, studying for the test in a subject of no interest to you, flipping hamburgers, sewing countless t-shirts or manning the assembly line.  Boredom can have the face of your wife or husband, of your parents, co-workers, teachers, TV presenters and politicians with their same old same old, the face of your life.  Being sick is boring, being poor and unable to afford anything is boring, being filthy rich and able to afford anything gets excruciatingly boring fast, being smart bores you with your own wits that turn into a boring routine, being dumb is boring but you don't know why 'cause you're too dumb to understand. 

 

Civilization is boring.     

 

We have different takes on boredom but I´ll say this: unlike some spiritual practices, your writing is not boring.  

[liminal_luke]

a big gay disco

beloved by straight white cis men

all-inclusive tao