Very unpopular opinions

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

"Perception of reality without mental defilements or mental filters" that would be one way of saying it. 

 

 

You just restated mindfulness with different terminology, and you already established that mindfulness is the path to the truth. My question was what is the truth according to you?

 

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

Mostly yes, that's my experience as well, there is some malpractice though and the degree can dependent on the lineage, again in my experience.

 

Monasteries typically work with psychiatric clinics btw when their staff needs help, they ( rightfully so ) do not depend on the Suttas for that, so they clearly do not see Buddhism as therapy.

 

The hobbyists which are "self-ordained" do most of the damage, agreed.

 

I don't believe you can even ordain as a monk if you have mental health problems. I think this is one of the questions they ask you to see if you qualify. 

[Salvijus]

If you wish to say spirituality and therapy are different. Then why do they have the same objective? 

 

Psych means soul. Psychotherapy is the science of the Soul. That's literally a definition of spirituality. 

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

You just restated mindfulness with different terminology, and you already established that mindfulness is the path to the truth. My question was what is the truth according to you?

 

 

Mindfulness is a practice that leads to perception of reality in which the labeling mind is set a side and only "reality as it is"(truth) is apparant. 

 

Edited June 15 by Salvijus

[snowymountains]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

I don't believe you can even ordain as a monk if you have mental health problems. I think this is one of the questions they ask you to see if you qualify. 

 

Someone may develop. Eg someone may have predisposition for psychosis , which is subclinical before ordination. After ordination , likely due to the intensive meditation schedule, they may become psychotic.

 

It's extremely difficult to diagnose subclinical levels of psychosis, only someone who's specialised on that can do it, so not blaming the monks for not seeing these things timely, but this is an example of what can go wrong.

[Salvijus]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

My question was what is the truth according to you?

 

 

"Perception of reality without any filters of the ego. "

 

That's a clean answer. 

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

"Perception of reality without any filters of the ego. "

 

That's a clean answer. 

 

You keep giving me different labels for mindfulness which you already established is the means to the truth. You are repeating yourself and not answering the question as to what truth is.

[Salvijus]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

You keep giving me different labels for mindfulness which you already established is the means to the truth. You are repeating yourself and not answering the question as to what truth is.

 

When you perceive reality without the filters of ego. You perceive the Truth. 

 

How is that not a direct answer? 

[Salvijus]

"Truth - the reality one perceives when there are no mental difillements or mental projections going on." 

 

There's is no way to make it more direct than this. 

[Maddie]

Just now, Salvijus said:

 

When you perceive reality without the filters of ego. You perceive the Truth. 

 

How is that not a direct answer? 

 

What you are describing is mindfulness. You said that mindfulness was the means to the end, not the end. You said the end was "the truth". You keep telling me what the means to the truth is, and not what the truth is. 

 

I'm asking about the destination (which you claim to know), not the vehicle. 

[liminal_luke]

One difference between therapy and most spiritual traditions is that the goal of therapy is set by the client.  A therapist might ask " what do you want to be different in your life," might ask "where should we begin?"  While therapists undoubtedly have ideas about what constitutes mental health, it´s ultimately the client who judges whether therapy is a success or not.  Spiritual traditions work on an entirely different basis.  

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

What you are describing is mindfulness. You said that mindfulness was the means to the end, not the end. You said the end was "the truth". You keep telling me what the means to the truth is, and not what the truth is. 

 

I'm asking about the destination (which you claim to know), not the vehicle. 

 

In that sense mindfulness and the truth are the same. When you're mindfulness is 100%, you perceive reality as it is. 

 

[Maddie]

Just now, Salvijus said:

 

In that sense mindfulness and the truth are the same. When you're mindfulness is 100%, you perceive reality as it is. 

 

 

Ok so to be clear you are saying that mindfulness is also "the truth" ? 

[Salvijus]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

Ok so to be clear you are saying that mindfulness is also "the truth" ? 

 

In this particular context yes. 

[Maddie]

Just now, Salvijus said:

 

In this particular context yes. 

 

Is there another context where it is not "the truth" ? 

[Salvijus]

"The degree to which you are concious is the the degree to which you know the truth."

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

Is there another context where it is not "the truth" ? 

 

Mindfulness as a practice is not the truth. 

 

Mindfulness as your ability to perceive reality without any filters is the truth. 

Edited June 15 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

 

Mindfulness as a practice is not the truth. 

 

Mindfulness as your ability to perceive reality without any filters is the truth. 

 

So if we were to have a conscious and mindful lion cub and a conscious and mindful gazelle. Which one's truth about the lion is "the truth" then? 

[Salvijus]

Just now, Maddie said:

 

So if we were to have a conscious and mindful lion cub and a conscious and mindful gazelle. Which one's truth about the lion is "the truth" then? 

 

Both of them are seeing reality through the filters of their survival conditioning. Their minds are conditioned in a certain way. 

 

Only a human being can see reality beyond any sort of conditioning. And witness the truth of all reality unfiltered, unprejudice, unpainted with their projections.

[Salvijus]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

One difference between therapy and most spiritual traditions is that the goal of therapy is set by the client.  A therapist might ask " what do you want to be different in your life," might ask "where should we begin?"  While therapists undoubtedly have ideas about what constitutes mental health, it´s ultimately the client who judges whether therapy is a success or not.  Spiritual traditions work on an entirely different basis.  

 

Different method but same objective. Big deal. 

[Maddie]

1 minute ago, Salvijus said:

 

Both of them are seeing reality through the filters of their survival conditioning. Their minds are conditioned in a certain way. 

 

Only a human being can see reality beyond any sort of conditioning. And witness the truth of all reality unfiltered, unprejudice, unpainted with their projections.

 

This is a hypothetical. So who's truth is "the truth"?

[Salvijus]

1 minute ago, Maddie said:

 

This is a hypothetical. So who's truth is "the truth"?

 

The one who sees reality without conditioning.

 

In this case both animals are not witnessing the truth of reality. 

Edited June 15 by Salvijus

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Only a human being can see reality beyond any sort of conditioning. 

 

How do you know this is true? Does it not sound like something a human being would say? 

[snowymountains]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

One difference between therapy and most spiritual traditions is that the goal of therapy is set by the client.  A therapist might ask " what do you want to be different in your life," might ask "where should we begin?"  While therapists undoubtedly have ideas about what constitutes mental health, it´s ultimately the client who judges whether therapy is a success or not.  Spiritual traditions work on an entirely different basis.  

 

Depends on the type of therapy.

 

Eg in CBT yes. In general, directional interventions are done only if the client is aware and consents.

 

In PCT the goal is not set by the client ( nor the therapist), it is to align the self with the organism but there the therapist is non-directional and does no interventions.

So in a sense the goals are set by the client's organism ( but the client may not be consciously aware of them till the therapy moves on ).

So here the "truth"(TM) is actually something very personal to each client and determined exclusively by their organism.

 

In psychoanalysis eg as in neo Freudian free association or even Jungian, the goal is preset into a form of self discovery, the client becomes consciously aware of more and more. Any interventions, again, need the consent of the client 

[Maddie]

Just now, Salvijus said:

The one who sees reality without conditioning. In this case both animals are not witnessing the truth of reality. 

 

Why are they not seeing reality if we have established they are both mindful?