Very unpopular opinions

[Taomeow]

22 hours ago, S:C said:

The ‘idea’ is nothing but a subjective preference. It has no substantial basis. 

 

I think it depends on the kind of idea one's having.  E.g., many self-preservation ideas have substantial basis -- when hungry seek food, when thirsty seek water, when sleepy take a nap, when in danger hide, or fight, or flee, and so on.  

 

22 hours ago, S:C said:

There is no ‘free will’. We are just prisoners of our own device. Bound to experience a show which script has already been written, with hardly probability to improvise apart from conditioning.

 

Taoist (approximate) breakdown: 40% is written in the stars and can't be changed, 40% is the field of application of free will (though choices may be limited to how one deals with the part written in the stars, but they exist and we are capable of making them); 20% is surprise surprise, unpredictable, probabilistic, and not scriptable even by gods.

 

22 hours ago, S:C said:

’I think therefore I am’ is nonsense in several ways. Why should thinking imply an existence of a separated self by a way of causality? That is just bonkers. Whatever runs through minds projection surface doesn’t tell one anything about existence and nonexistence. 

 

Fully in agreement.

 

22 hours ago, S:C said:

Intelligence is overrated. What use is a sword that cannot cut through emotions? Looking the other way might make you happier than interpreting what you do. 

 

What about "emotional intelligence?"  I believe "intelligence" is not so much overrated as misinterpreted.   

 

22 hours ago, S:C said:

Spiritual traditions don’t put enough emphasis on the heart. And heart is not simply emotions in chaos. 

 

Most institutionalized "spiritual" traditions put emphasis on serving themselves as generous a helping of status, power, control, and profit as they're able.  The native spirituality of humans, shamanism, and modalities that haven't severed their links with it deals with actual spirits.  Actual spirits reside in different designated places -- e.g., the spirit of the heart resides in the heart, the spirit of the river, in the river, and so on.  Malevolent spirits reside where they don't belong, and are behind emotions in chaos.  

[forestofclarity]

On 6/17/2024 at 7:38 AM, SirPalomides said:

Now I understand why things are framed this way- the danger of clinging to a set of concepts and other artifacts without moving on to their full significance is real. But it's just with these things- books, words, art, ceremony, poetry,  the flowers,  birds, stars, etc.- that this transcendent world is manifested to me, that liberation is communicated.

 

This is more or less the shift from Sutra to Tantra (or Chan/Zen) in my mind. I think it is accurate to say that Nagarjuna focuses on the emptiness aspect, but there is also the aspect of appearances. How these are dealt with depends on the school of Buddhism. 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/17/2024 at 6:38 AM, SirPalomides said:

 

Basically I find it awkward when I'm directed to an Ultimate/ Absolute reality without characteristics, with the corollary that phenomena, words, thoughts, and the whole variety of experience, are somehow illusory or at best tools to be dispensed with once the other shore is reached. Now I understand why things are framed this way- the danger of clinging to a set of concepts and other artifacts without moving on to their full significance is real. But it's just with these things- books, words, art, ceremony, poetry,  the flowers,  birds, stars, etc.- that this transcendent world is manifested to me, that liberation is communicated. Someone might say I'm too attached to provisionals but it seems to me the provisionals are indispensable. So I appreciate an approach like Tiantai that telescopes the raft and the shore, or the fish trap and the fish in Zhuangzi's terms. And Zhuangzi, often presented as suspicious of language, also puts forth a more exalted view of language in his discussion of "goblet words". 

 

 

 

That's the beauty of the first four volumes of the Pali sermons, although "some assembly is required." 

 

States of concentration that are inherent in human nature are described, both as to characteristics and feelings.  The final concentration is described, the experience that comes out of that concentration, and the significance of the experience with regard to suffering.

 

The difficulty is in the relationship between two experiences that can be everyday experiences, experiences that Dogen summarized:

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself” (Nisargadatta's description of meditation), activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

("Take the Backward Step")
 

 

In between "find your place where you are" and "find your way at this moment", the teachings can be especially helpful, even if "activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness" takes a jumping-off that words can't actually convey.

 

On the other hand:

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention draws out thoughts initial and sustained, and brings on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24, transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

 

Edited June 21 by Mark Foote

[NaturaNaturans]

On 23.5.2024 at 11:30 PM, Apech said:

 

I was using Constantine for comparison - I'm not saying they are the same but that they both practiced Imperial patronage of a religion.  If you have the time this video is quite interesting:

 

 

I listened. This I found very intruiging:

 

 

This inscription of dhamma (dharma) has been engraved so that any sons or great-grandsons that I may have should not think of gaining new conquests…  They should only consider conquest by dhamma to be a true conquest, and delight in dhamma should be their whole delight.

 

intruiging doesnt do it justice. Extraordinary.

Edited June 21 by NaturaNaturans
Sorry, wrong qoute there

[Mark Foote]

On 6/21/2024 at 4:47 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

 

This inscription of dhamma (dharma) has been engraved so that any sons or great-grandsons that I may have should not think of gaining new conquests…  They should only consider conquest by dhamma to be a true conquest, and delight in dhamma should be their whole delight.

(Ashoka)

 

Intriging doesn't do it justice. Extraordinary.
 

 

 

Very unpopular opinion:  the first four sermon-volumes of the Pali Canon have extraordinary discourses in them--maybe every twellfth sermon is unique in the religious literature of the world--and piecing together the "pleasant way of living" that Gautama the Shakyan recommended can be the undertaking of a lifetime.  

Ashoka was concerned more with the morality of Buddhism, and less with the potentially life-changing teachings. 

If you think Ashoka was extraordinary, try Gautama!

 

I would say, "who cooks for you"...

 

 

photo by Paulette Donnellon--burrowing owl in Anza-Borrega Desert State Park.

 

 

 

Edited June 27 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

All threads must die, even the ones we particularly like.  Maybe, especially the ones we particularly like...

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

All threads must die, even the ones we particularly like.  Maybe, especially the ones we particularly like...

 

Valar morghulis

[snowymountains]

On 20/06/2024 at 11:00 PM, Taomeow said:

Taoist (approximate) breakdown: 40% is written in the stars and can't be changed, 40% is the field of application of free will (though choices may be limited to how one deals with the part written in the stars, but they exist and we are capable of making them); 20% is surprise surprise, unpredictable, probabilistic, and not scriptable even by gods.

 

Interesting, in which texts is this breakdown discussed?

 

On 20/06/2024 at 11:00 PM, Taomeow said:

Most institutionalized "spiritual" traditions put emphasis on serving themselves as generous a helping of status, power, control, and profit as they're able.

 

Of course, it's a business after all 😁

 

On 20/06/2024 at 11:00 PM, Taomeow said:

The native spirituality of humans, shamanism, and modalities that haven't severed their links with it deals with actual spirits. 

 

The thing is these traditions have mostly vanished.

In all honesty, the closest thing I can think of, as a modern version of shamans, is some analysts/therapists of some specific transcendental schools.

Those folks work a lot with active imagination, dreams, have a soft spot in their hearts for Hillman, alchemy etc. Still to find the real deal from that crowd requires knowledge of the crowd, imho most are just smooth talkers.

[Taomeow]

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Interesting, in which texts is this breakdown discussed?

 

In texts on classical Xuan Kong feng shui.  Advanced ones are insurmountably difficult (traditionally it took about 30 years of diligent study and practice for a student to master this discipline), and good (vs. bogus) beginner ones are rare.  I don't remember exactly in which of them I encountered the breakdown -- the better beginner ones I recall were by Eva Wong, David Twicken, and Elizabeth Moran/Val Biktashev. 

 

7 hours ago, snowymountains said:

The thing is these traditions have mostly vanished.

In all honesty, the closest thing I can think of, as a modern version of shamans, is some analysts/therapists of some specific transcendental schools.

Those folks work a lot with active imagination, dreams, have a soft spot in their hearts for Hillman, alchemy etc. Still to find the real deal from that crowd requires knowledge of the crowd, imho most are just smooth talkers.

 

I wouldn't go to any analysts/therapists for that.  But there's traditions here and there that retain some of that expertise -- taoism is one (primarily magical schools, but there's "footprints" all over much of it, visible to those trained in reading footprints), Bön, and of course whatever shamanic proper (or nearly proper) traditions survive in places like South America, Africa, Siberia, and perhaps Australia (though most of what I know about that latter is traceable to Nungali )

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

In texts on classical Xuan Kong feng shui.  Advanced ones are insurmountably difficult (traditionally it took about 30 years of diligent study and practice for a student to master this discipline), and good (vs. bogus) beginner ones are rare.  I don't remember exactly in which of them I encountered the breakdown -- the better beginner ones I recall were by Eva Wong, David Twicken, and Elizabeth Moran/Val Biktashev. 

 

 

I wouldn't go to any analysts/therapists for that.  But there's traditions here and there that retain some of that expertise -- taoism is one (primarily magical schools, but there's "footprints" all over much of it, visible to those trained in reading footprints), Bön, and of course whatever shamanic proper (or nearly proper) traditions survive in places like South America, Africa, Siberia, and perhaps Australia (though most of what I know about that latter is traceable to Nungali )
 

I can't give a source, but I read somewhere that about 10% of Western physicians are intuitives.  That is to say, they have a shamanistic streak, they practice based on their intuition as much as they can get away with.  Not that they dispense with science, but they have confidence in their intuition and an openness to modalities of healing.

I guess in a sense you could say all osteopaths have something of that in their practice, looking at the foundations of osteopathy.

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

I can't give a source, but I read somewhere that about 10% of Western physicians are intuitives.  That is to say, they have a shamanistic streak, they practice based on their intuition as much as they can get away with.  Not that they dispense with science, but they have confidence in their intuition and an openness to modalities of healing.

I guess in a sense you could say all osteopaths have something of that in their practice, looking at the foundations of osteopathy.
 

 

From personal experience I know they exist, but I'm not sure about 10% -- seems a tad exaggerated.  

 

An even rarer phenomenon (again, personal experience) is a healing presence.  It so happened that my grandparents, my parents and me all had a bunch of MDs for friends, some of them lifelong friends, but there was this one woman among them, my mom's friend, who came to check on me whenever I was sick as a kid or teenager, and later to check on my own kids.  I can swear that whatever the illness was, it always  got immediately better when she just entered the room.  Pain, fever, cough, stomachache, anything.  She only used Western methods, very minimalistically, usually dialing down on whatever our regular physicians prescribed, removing rather than adding treatments and medications.  She carried an aura of calm detachment about her and it was "contagious" and healing.   (Worked better than compassion -- there was no "passion," no fuss, nothing to excite a sick person's emotions.  She never offered words of encouragement or consolation... and for some reason that also helped.  You could tell -- she's the boss over the illness, not over your emotions.  Hard to explain...  a gift.)       

[Tommy]

Since the title of this topic is "very unpopular opinion", so I decided to post this here.

My opinion is about Karma. The other day, my daughter asked me what is Karma? Told her that some want to believe that it is an agency to make justice happen. That if one does wrong then wrong will happen to them. I told her that there is no such agency to provide such justice. Not that it does not happen. Just that there is no force creating justice for wrong doers. She ask if a person who does wrong to someone will be punished for their wrong doing. I tried to explain to her that Karma is more like what you plant is what you will reap. If you plant an apple seed then an apple tree will grow. Not an orange tree. She did not understand me. The idea is that if one lives by the sword then one dies by the sword. Be a bully and the people one bullies will return the favor because that is what one planted. And, I told her that justice may not happen in this life time but could happen in the next. Yeah, I believe in rebirth.

 

So, how does Karma get washed away from one when they perceive enlightenment? Those things did happen. Those actions were intentional. So how does one wipe the slate clean? It does not seem possible to me. Every act in the universe has an equal and opposite reaction. One does not have light without the darkness. One can have less entanglements with Karma but how can one wipe the slate clean? Or does not making new Karma stop old Karma?

 

Well, my daughter really wanted to know that the people that bullied her in high school will get their Karma. Their action against my daughter makes me want justice too. However, I do not wish anyone to be hurt. Guess I must be nuts and my opinion, very unpopular.

Edited July 6 by Tommy

[Taoist Texts]

58 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Those actions were intentional. So how does one wipe the slate clean? It does not seem possible to me

it is. once there is no intention no more - the slate disappears.

[snowymountains]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

An even rarer phenomenon (again, personal experience) is a healing presence. 

 

Imo that's what a therapist is about, the rest are psychoeducation and teaching of techniques for self-therapy but without a therapeutic presence you don't have a therapist, again imo.

 

Someone great once said is that these are the only people that should be therapists and that's what should be the only screening criterion, not scores on experiential sessions for PHQ9 and GAD7.

 

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

She never offered words of encouragement or consolation... and for some reason that also helped.  You could tell -- she's the boss over the illness, not over your emotions.  Hard to explain...  a gift.)       

 

Encouragenent and consolation actually work in the opposite direction of what a healing presence does to people.

 

Milton Erikson had this nature ( not his "Eriksonian" derivatives/imitators though ). Carl Rogers essentially was the same in that regard. Others too.

 

This is what I meant when I said one needs to find the rare gem in the transpersonal therapists for a modern equivalent of shaman.

There are people like this, in the western world, it's just that they're few and apart.

 

One common theme amongst them is that they've been taken apart and put themselves back together, just like Shamans allegedly did, but it goes beyond that, as there are many ways in which someone can reconstruct, and not all lead to a healing presence.

This can be a long discussion 😁, a very interesting one that can go into a lot of depth, but a long one.

Edited July 6 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

9 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I can't give a source, but I read somewhere that about 10% of Western physicians are intuitives.  

 

If we try to quantify it via Jungian personality factors eg intuition and use mbti, the healing personality type is INFJ.

 

Less than 2% of the population is INFJ and not all INFJs have a healing presence.

 

I doubt it's 10% for physicians, it may be even less than 2% which is the population average.

Edited July 6 by snowymountains

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is. once there is no intention no more - the slate disappears.

The slate disappears going forward. But what was done can not disappear without considerable effort to change what is here now. The past doesn't disappear like a memory. A seed once planted will take root. To me, that is wishful thinking that one can escape one's Karma.

[Taoist Texts]

11 minutes ago, Tommy said:

The past doesn't disappear

you see, there is a magic word: "because", i find using it makes everything clear

13 minutes ago, Tommy said:

what was done can not disappear

 

Quote

done/dʌn/verb past participle of do 1.adjective
 2.
no longer happening or existing.

i find dictionaries uncommonly helpful as well

[S:C]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

you see, there is a magic word: "because", i find using it makes everything clear

 

i find dictionaries uncommonly helpful as well

Your brain structure doesn’t care if its the past or not if an experience ingrained itself there. 
 

Causality in its different forms doesn’t bring clarity at all. Too binary. Probability more like it. Never clarity. But beyond. Causality like time is a human concept.

Edited July 6 by S:C

[Tommy]

On 7/6/2024 at 6:52 AM, Taoist Texts said:

you see, there is a magic word: "because", i find using it makes everything clear

 

i find dictionaries uncommonly helpful as well

I find the obvious self evident. Like a statement of the sky is blue. The past doesn't disappear. To know where you are, look to your past. The results of the past are here now. 

 

You need a dictionary? When you are "done" building a house, does that mean the house no longer exist? Or, when your girlfriend breaks up with you, you two are done as a couple and no longer exist as a couple. Doesn't mean you no longer exist nor does it mean the girl no longer exist. You can't take a definition and apply it without looking at the parameters of the situation. That would be like saying what goes up must come down. But, rocket ships don't necessarily come down. Missiles on the hand do come down and usually with devastation. Guess you can be stubborn or whatever it is you want to be. No one can stop you. But, I do hope you will learn and grow to be more than a contrarian.

 

Note: "What was done does not disappear." Focus is on "What" not "done". It is the what does does not disappear. The done is gone.

Edited July 8 by Tommy

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

When you are "done" building a house, does that mean the house no longer exist?

when we are done building, the process of building no longer exists because it stops. the house is a different matter altogether because the process of laying a brick is different from the brick laying in place.   Karma is an eastern concept thats why no westerner can quite grasp it. mostly because they  reason in western ideas of results and sins. Those have nothing to do with karma, only the human thought does.

12 hours ago, S:C said:

Causality like time is a human concept.

no, its a western one, because you did not define it;)

 

Ya'll prolly  mighty anxious to finally  enlighten youseself  what real (meaning eastern) karma is.  Here youse go:

放下屠刀，立地成佛 

fàng xià tú dāo , lì dì chéng fó

lay down butcher's knife, become a Buddha on the spot

[S:C]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

when we are done building, the process of building no longer exists because it stops. the house is a different matter altogether because the process of laying a brick is different from the brick laying in place.   Karma is an eastern concept thats why no westerner can quite grasp it. mostly because they  reason in western ideas of results and sins. Those have nothing to do with karma, only the human thought does.

no, its a western one, because you did not define it;)

 

Ya'll prolly  mighty anxious to finally  enlighten youseself  what real (meaning eastern) karma is.  Here youse go:

放下屠刀，立地成佛 

fàng xià tú dāo , lì dì chéng fó

lay down butcher's knife, become a Buddha on the spot

If I define it, I separate subject and object in my perception. It’s useful if you want to manipulate perception in that way. But then there’s still a you.  
 

Nice to have made you laugh. Make me laugh too?

Edited July 7 by S:C

[NaturaNaturans]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

when we are done building, the process of building no longer exists because it stops. the house is a different matter altogether because the process of laying a brick is different from the brick laying in place.   Karma is an eastern concept thats why no westerner can quite grasp it. mostly because they  reason in western ideas of results and sins. Those have nothing to do with karma, only the human thought does.

no, its a western one, because you did not define it;)

 

Ya'll prolly  mighty anxious to finally  enlighten youseself  what real (meaning eastern) karma is.  Here youse go:

放下屠刀，立地成佛 

fàng xià tú dāo , lì dì chéng fó

lay down butcher's knife, become a Buddha on the spot

Etymology. Borrowed from Sanskrit कर्मन् (karman, “act, action, performance”), from the root कृ (kṛ, “to do, make”), from the Proto-Indo-European root *kʷer- (“to do, make, build”).

[NaturaNaturans]

@Taoist Texts are you suggesting we are incapable of grasping cause and effect, or would you like to expand a bit? What you reap is what you sow

[NaturaNaturans]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, its a western one, because you did not define it;)

Sorry to beat a dead horse here, but «we» very much did:

Spoiler

Linguistic evidence has led scholars to reconstruct the concept of *h₂értus, denoting 'what is fitting, rightly ordered', and ultimately deriving from the verbal root *h₂er-, 'to fit'. Descendant cognates include Hittite āra('right, proper');^[67] Sanskrit ṛta ('divine/cosmic law, force of truth, or order');^[68][69] Avestanarəta- ('order'); Greek artús ('arrangement'), possibly arete ('excellence') via the root *h₂erh₁ ('please, satisfy');^[70] Latin artus('joint'); Tocharian A ārtt- ('to praise, be pleased with'); Armenian ard ('ornament, shape'); Middle High German art ('innate feature, nature, fashion').^[71]

Interwoven with the root *h₂er- ('to fit') is the verbal root *dʰeh₁-, which means 'to put, lay down, establish', but also 'speak, say; bring back'.^[72][36][71] The Greek thémis and the Sanskrit dhāman both derive from the PIE noun for the 'Law', *dʰeh₁-men-, literally 'that which is established'.^[71] This notion of 'Law' includes an active principle, denoting an activity in obedience to the cosmic order *h₂értus, which in a social context is interpreted as a lawful conduct: in the Greek daughter culture, the titaness Themis personifies the cosmic order and the rules of lawful conduct which derived from it,^[73] and the Vedic code of lawful conduct, the Dharma, can also be traced back to the PIE root *dʰeh₁-.^[74] According to Martin L. West, the root *dʰeh₁- also denotes a divine or cosmic creation, as attested by the Hittite expression nēbis dēgan dāir ("established heaven (and) earth"), the Young Avestanformula kə huvāpå raocåscā dāt təmåscā?("What skilful artificer made the regions of light and dark?"), the name of the Vedic creator god Dhātr, and possibly by the Greek nymph Thetis, presented as a demiurgicalgoddess in Alcman's poetry.^[36]

Another root *yew(e)s- appears to be connected with ritualistic laws, as suggested by the Latin iūs ('law, right, justice, duty'), Avestan yaož-dā- ('make ritually pure'), and Sanskrit śáṃca yóśca ('health and happiness'), with a derived adjective *yusi(iy)os seen in Old Irish uisse ('just right, fitting') and possibly Old Church Slavonic istǔ ('actual, true').^[71]

Edit: If it is unclear how rta and karma relates:

 

Quote

rita, in Indian religion and philosophy, the cosmic order mentioned in the Vedas, the ancient sacred scriptures of India. As Hinduism developed from the ancient Vedic religion, the concept of rita led to the doctrines of dharma (duty) and karma(accumulated effects of good and bad actions). Rita is the physical order of the universe, the order of the sacrifice, and the moral law of the world. Because of rita, the sun and moon pursue their daily journeys across the sky, and the seasons proceed in regular movement. Vedic religion features the belief that rita was guarded by Varuna, the god-sovereign, who was assisted by Mitra, the god of honour, and that the proper performance of sacrifices to the gods was necessary to guarantee its continuance. Violation (anrita) of the established order by incorrect or improper behaviour, even if unintentional, constituted sin and required careful expiation.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/rita-Hinduism

Edited July 7 by NaturaNaturans

[liminal_luke]

On 5/7/2024 at 7:25 PM, Taomeow said:

 

She never offered words of encouragement or consolation... and for some reason that also helped.   

 

@Taomeow @snowymountains

 

The above strikes me as both correct and unpopular, and I´d be very interested in any further insights either of you might have about it.  I´m someone who would like to develop a healing presence.  Not to do any formal doctoring, just to be of help to the people I come across in everyday life and loved ones.  But I do offer encouragement and consolation on occasion.  For instance, I will tell my psychotic partner that nobody wants to hurt him when he goes outside, nobody is "looking" at him, etc.  Such encouragement does seem to help, but only momentarily.  In your opinions, is there another, better, way to go about this?