Very unpopular opinions

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, S:C said:

Nice to have made you laugh. Make me laugh too?

there is no karma apart from thoughts in my head;)

46 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

but «we» very much did:

etymology is not a definition. a concrete example is.

 

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

@Taoist Texts are you suggesting we are incapable of grasping cause and effect, or would you like to expand a bit?

i am suggesting that you guys think in fuzzy generalities incapable of concrete examples 

1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said:

What you reap is what you sow

to wit

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

etymology is not a definition. a concrete example is.

It kind of is tho. If the two doesnt match, it is «you» who redefined it. Not that it matters anyways, it is just a little silly to claim arabs cant grasp algebra

[S:C]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

there is no karma apart from thoughts in my head;)

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Thoughts or feelings, yes, that prove to be a part of resistance and thus hinder a full reception.

 

(In my opinion. Which might be wrong.)

Edited July 7 by S:C

[snowymountains]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

@Taomeow @snowymountains

 

The above strikes me as both correct and unpopular, and I´d be very interested in any further insights either of you might have about it.  I´m someone who would like to develop a healing presence.  Not to do any formal doctoring, just to be of help to the people I come across in everyday life and loved ones.  But I do offer encouragement and consolation on occasion.  For instance, I will tell my psychotic partner that nobody wants to hurt him when he goes outside, nobody is "looking" at him, etc.  Such encouragement does seem to help, but only momentarily.  In your opinions, is there another, better, way to go about this?

 

If you're not well and I tell you oh @liminal_luke everything's gonna be great, several things happen, for one I implicitly say it's not ok to express how you experience your current reality and two I implicitly pressure you to consciously suppress what your organism is telling you.

It's a kind of anti-mindfulness if you like.

 

It's very common that encouragement or consolation comes from someone who cannot handle another person's pain, they do it so that they feel it better themselves but that's their problem really and it's best not to impose the extra burden to the person in pain, that person has enough going on.

Of course it's natural to feel discomfort when sitting with someone else's pain, that's actually a good moment to do insight meditation and see where the discomfort comes from.

 

Healing (psychological healing) really happens when the person in pain can express themselves and a healing personality is present, a congruent personality that is. Transference and countertransference basically transfer the congruence.

Transference is not only about projecting person X to person Y, its effects go way deeper than that, it also includes transference of somatic effects, which as of relatively lately has been clinically investigated.

I can't speak for medical healing as there's no research I'm aware of on that, and I don't know much about the medical part, but my personal/subjective belief is that medical healing would involve some form of somatic transference.

 

 *during* a psychotic episode it's different, anything that helps a person become grounded/get in touch with their 5 senses is what's called for. Outside a psychotic episode, like all people, people who have episodes benefit from unconditional acceptance, not consolation.

 

There is room for encouragement and helping someone overcome a negative belief *when that belief is entirely unrealistic*. If the negative belief is realistic, then no intervention.

but helping overcome a negative belief comes later, after they're able to feel acceptance for how they experience reality - and again this is not done via consolation.

 

Consolation is actually ineffective communication.

[Taomeow]

20 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

It's very common that encouragement or consolation comes from someone who cannot handle another person's pain, they do it so that they feel it better themselves but that's their problem really and it's best not to impose the extra burden to the person in pain, that person has enough going on.

 

When a beloved family member was terribly ill for a very long time and I was the sole caretaker with a thousand hands, using all of them nonstop, another family member used to come visit, sit comfortably on the sofa and make pronouncements in this cloying voice, "It's going to be all right," "I know it's going to get better,' "I prayed and asked very important and pious people to pray too, so it's done deal, now it will all pass" and so on.  At one point I told her, "yeah, I could use a bit of help right now, how about let the dishes pass, for starters?  Can you maybe wash the dishes for me?" (I was making vegetable juices for the sick person 16 times a day, among other things, that was part of one of the protocols, so among other things I was washing dishes 20 times a day.)  She got mighty indignant.  Took offense and proceeded to behave as though I'm a horrible ungrateful person and it's all my fault.  And no, she didn't wash the dishes. 

 

[liminal_luke]

Lots of wisdom shared, @Taomeow, @snowymountains.  I´ll take a bit to digest it.  

[snowymountains]

46 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

When a beloved family member was terribly ill for a very long time and I was the sole caretaker with a thousand hands, using all of them nonstop, another family member used to come visit, sit comfortably on the sofa and make pronouncements in this cloying voice, "It's going to be all right," "I know it's going to get better,' "I prayed and asked very important and pious people to pray too, so it's done deal, now it will all pass" and so on.  At one point I told her, "yeah, I could use a bit of help right now, how about let the dishes pass, for starters?  Can you maybe wash the dishes for me?" (I was making vegetable juices for the sick person 16 times a day, among other things, that was part of one of the protocols, so among other things I was washing dishes 20 times a day.)  She got mighty indignant.  Took offense and proceeded to behave as though I'm a horrible ungrateful person and it's all my fault.  And no, she didn't wash the dishes. 

 

 

It's a theme, people living a 30min drive off a natural disaster site, pray, ask spirits for help, do reiki, do whatevs but they don't drive there with food and clothes.

I mean anything spiritual is of course fine but before delegating everything upwards to God, perhaps first getting those hands dirty and doing something which is of actual help might be a good idea...

 

Hope your effort, sounds like a lot of it, helped your family member.

[snowymountains]

56 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Lots of wisdom shared, @Taomeow, @snowymountains.  I´ll take a bit to digest it.  

 

You're welcome and just to be clear by grounded I mean come in touch with their 5 senses - not grounded to the other persons reality through direct confrontation during an episode, even if the other person's reality is the objectively correct one.

Visiting a counsellor/psychotherapist can be helpful for psychoeducation on what to do to help during an episode as well as coping skills ( this is not treatment btw - for treatment of Psychosis oversight by a psychiatrist is required )

Edited July 7 by snowymountains

[Tommy]

On 7/7/2024 at 7:28 AM, Taoist Texts said:

when we are done building, the process of building no longer exists because it stops. the house is a different matter altogether because the process of laying a brick is different from the brick laying in place.   Karma is an eastern concept thats why no westerner can quite grasp it. mostly because they  reason in western ideas of results and sins. Those have nothing to do with karma, only the human thought does.

no, its a western one, because you did not define it;)

 

Ya'll prolly  mighty anxious to finally  enlighten youseself  what real (meaning eastern) karma is.  Here youse go:

放下屠刀，立地成佛 

fàng xià tú dāo , lì dì chéng fó

lay down butcher's knife, become a Buddha on the spot

Yes, the process stops but what was done in the past still exist. That is the whole point of Karma. The actions stopped but the Karma is there. It does not get wipe out by stopping future actions. The house still stands.

 

Did you read what you said? "The process of laying a brick is different from the brick laying in place. " The brick laying in place would not happen if the brick did not go thru the process of laying a brick. You can not separate one from the other. Everything is connected. That is the fundamental truth of Karma and the Dharma. Nothing arises alone and separate. 

 

In your actions and intent, Karma will be with you. Now and in your next life. Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood carry water. That is for everyone. Lay down the knife and become a Buddha is a singular event for an individual. Not the same. You personally can not lay the knife down and become a Buddha. You are not that person. Your reasoning is faulty. You have lost the context. It then become the same as "What is the sound of one hand clap?"

 

Sorry, I do not mean to be harsh. Enlightenment is not something I chase anymore. That was given up long ago. I apologize for my rude behavior. You believe whatever it is you want to believe. You are on your own journey. Hope your travels are well. Namaste.

 

Note: The process of building does not disappear. It goes into hibernation until the next building.

Edited July 8 by Tommy

[forestofclarity]

23 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´m someone who would like to develop a healing presence.  Not to do any formal doctoring, just to be of help to the people I come across in everyday life and loved ones. 

 

A few rambling thoughts:

 

What makes you think you don't already have such a presence? 

 

What I've found in my life is that something some one said or done may not have manifested anything in the moment something was said or done, but sometimes much, much later. I think this is one of the reasons that the Gita says that we should practice without concern for the fruits (i.e. achieving a specific result), in part because we don't have the all encompassing wisdom to know what those results will be. Who knows where your partner would be without everything you've already done? In other words, it is hard to judge the results of our actions because we have very little information. 

 

But I do think that people tend to manifest outside how they are inside. It might be body language, subliminal cues, qi fields, etc. You can often see this with not only how other adults react, but also children and animals who don't tend to have as many personal barriers in place. In addition, we are able to stand aside from our acquired mind and connect to something deeper, I think we naturally respond to what the situation calls for. 

 

Short of that, we can also cultivate relative states that are helpful, but I think it is different for different people. For some, meditative introspection may be the way. For others, it may be invoking feelings of loving kindness and spreading it throughout the body and mind, or doing tonglen. For others, engaging in selfless service so thoroughly that the sense of self is consumed. For others, it might be connecting through church, etc.

 

So I would say we might try to find the practices that connect with us and bring out these positive qualities, and practice them without judging external results. 

 

Edited July 8 by forestofemptiness

[liminal_luke]

11 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

A few rambling thoughts:

 

What makes you think you don't already have such a presence? 

 

 

Thanks for the thoughtful post -- and for floating the possibility that I have more of a healing presence than I´m giving myself credit for.  I tend toward self-deprecation and shy away from boastfulness, but I´ll take this opportunity to come out of my self-deprecating shell and affirm that yes, I do believe I have a healing presence.  At least to some small extent.  That said, I also think there´s tons of room for further development.

 

I like the idea of practicing without concern for the fruits of practice.  Something very profound in that.

[Nintendao]

I wanted to say things about karma, but I'll just put this:

 

Quote

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

 

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

 

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his journey.

 

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

 

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself no longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

 

The older monk looked at him and replied, “Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”

 

^{https://www.alphahome.org/two-monks-and-a-woman/}

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

I wanted to say things about karma, but I'll just put this:

of course. the westerners are so materialist that they are loath to even look up the definition.  They make  karma material like a house or some such thing which is totally opposite to the real eastern concept:

 

Quote

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.^{[web 1][note 4]}

 

 

 

[Cobie]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

… one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. …

That’s exactly how I understand it. 
 

 

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

… I do believe I have a healing presence. …

 

Yes, I experience you as such on this forum. 
 

Quote

… practicing without concern for the fruits of practice. …

 When I was young I practiced to achieve things but now I have reached an age that achieving anything is pointless as there is no time left to enjoy them. 
 

Seriously though, I totally agree with you, “practicing without concern for the fruits of practice” is the thing to do.

 

 

Edited July 8 by Cobie

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 When I was young I practiced to achieve things but now I have reached an age that achieving anything is pointless as there is no time left to enjoy them. 
 

Seriously though, I totally agree with you, “practicing without concern for the fruits of practice” is the thing to do.

 

Wait, do you mean that if you had more time then it would not be pointless to try to achieve anything because then you could enjoy it? 

[Tommy]

On 7/8/2024 at 2:25 PM, Taoist Texts said:

of course. the westerners are so materialist that they are loath to even look up the definition.  They make  karma material like a house or some such thing which is totally opposite to the real eastern concept:

 

What real eastern concept are you talking about? Karma? Why do you distinguish western from eastern thoughts and philosophies? Do you believe there is something mystical about eastern philosophy? What makes you think that Karma is not like a house built from the actions and intent made by people? Karma exists whether you believe it or not. The house exist whether you wish it or not. There is nothing mystical in Karma. Loath to look up definitions. The dictionary was made by people and their thoughts about a word's definition and may not encompass all there is or be lacking. Why do you believe and trust so much in what was written? What was written about Buddha probably came 500 years after the death of the Buddha.

 

Looking up the definition of Karma, 

the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences.

"a buddha is believed to have completely purified his karma"

• INFORMAL

  destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.

  "there's something highly satisfying when karma strikes"

   

  And from that you know all about Karma?  The house is a solid example of Karma. Like a seed planted. It will grow into what it is and come back to you in ways you never expected. Live long and prosper.

Edited July 9 by Tommy

[Taoist Texts]

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

What real eastern concept are you talking about? Karma?

yes

11 hours ago, Tommy said:

Why do you distinguish western from eastern thoughts and philosophies? Do you believe there is something mystical about eastern philosophy?

https://drkatsurasuzuki.com/western-philosophy-vs-eastern-philosophy/

yes i do

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

The house exist whether you wish it or not.

it may or may not, i just dont care if it does;) this whole world is illusory let alone a stupid house

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

Why do you believe and trust so much in what was written?

because i investigated it on my personal experience and found correct

12 hours ago, Tommy said:

It will grow into what it is and come back to you in ways you never expected.

if you say so;) Now for a concrete example: i was bullied in school. if i would still carry that chip on my shoulder wishing for the bullies to be punished by some karma then i would have that karma. but i forgotten all about it and them long time ago. i dont care about it and them. my karma is gone. others may say that it is not. but somehow i know better than them;)

[Cobie]

20 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

… i forgotten all about it and them long time ago. i dont care about it and them. …

Kudos to you. 

 

20 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

my karma is gone. others may say that it is not. but somehow i know better than them;)

Exactly.

 

 

[Cobie]

 

 

Edited July 10 by Cobie

[Tommy]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes

https://drkatsurasuzuki.com/western-philosophy-vs-eastern-philosophy/

yes i do

it may or may not, i just dont care if it does;) this whole world is illusory let alone a stupid house

because i investigated it on my personal experience and found correct

if you say so;) Now for a concrete example: i was bullied in school. if i would still carry that chip on my shoulder wishing for the bullies to be punished by some karma then i would have that karma. but i forgotten all about it and them long time ago. i dont care about it and them. my karma is gone. others may say that it is not. but somehow i know better than them;)

You say you believe in eastern philosophy because you have investigated on personal experience and found it correct? Isn't that investigation a western way of thinking? But not important, considering you believe life to be illusory. You don't live in the streets, do you? Then you live inside something? A house maybe? But, that is illusory. Rain on your head is illusory then it shouldn't bother you? And the winters or summers do not matter? You can call it illusory but you have no other place to go. This is your life. Wherever you go, this will follow.

 

That bullying in school is a part of you. To know where you are now, look to your past. You believe you have cut off the Karma associated with it. That in itself is Karma. Until you can dwell in a place where it doesn't exist, you have Karma whether you like it or not. But, that is eastern philosophy. Western thought would be that you have cut it off because you stopped and let it go. Not until you are enlightened and dwell in another space can you say you have cut off Karma. That is eastern philosophy.

 

Fung shui, another eastern philosophy about the management of elements in our environment. Stairs facing the front door mean all your worth will flow out the door. A desk facing the door will not create a harmonious flow of energy. The desk should be in line but not facing the door. Iching, marriages must be done on certain dates based upon the birthdays of the couple. Changes in home and job must be done according to the predilection of the Iching's prediction of the future..  Eastern philosophy? Well acquainted.

 

As was said before you can believe in whatever you wish. Nothing wrong in that. That is part of your journey. Wish you well.

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes

https://drkatsurasuzuki.com/western-philosophy-vs-eastern-philosophy/

yes i do

it may or may not, i just dont care if it does;) this whole world is illusory let alone a stupid house

because i investigated it on my personal experience and found correct

if you say so;) Now for a concrete example: i was bullied in school. if i would still carry that chip on my shoulder wishing for the bullies to be punished by some karma then i would have that karma. but i forgotten all about it and them long time ago. i dont care about it and them. my karma is gone. others may say that it is not. but somehow i know better than them;)

Forgiveness for the bullies provided they rot in everlasting hell.

[Nungali]

On 7/8/2024 at 4:47 AM, Taomeow said:

 

When a beloved family member was terribly ill for a very long time and I was the sole caretaker with a thousand hands, using all of them nonstop, another family member used to come visit, sit comfortably on the sofa and make pronouncements in this cloying voice, "It's going to be all right," "I know it's going to get better,' "I prayed and asked very important and pious people to pray too, so it's done deal, now it will all pass" and so on.  At one point I told her, "yeah, I could use a bit of help right now, how about let the dishes pass, for starters?  Can you maybe wash the dishes for me?" (I was making vegetable juices for the sick person 16 times a day, among other things, that was part of one of the protocols, so among other things I was washing dishes 20 times a day.)  She got mighty indignant.  Took offense and proceeded to behave as though I'm a horrible ungrateful person and it's all my fault.  And no, she didn't wash the dishes. 

 

 

Dont I know that one !    I have a very good  friend ( used to GF years back )  I remember one occasion, all these people where supposed to help me , they didnt , they just made oit worse, hung out made a mess and ate my food . She was the only one that pitched in and slogged through the work with me .... single mum with 3 boys under 4   !   The others ?   Oh, they had a collection of headaches , uncomfortable s and 'in a minutes / do it later ' .   I have seen that a few times .   After that it got somewhat reversed  and I had the 'opportunity to pay her back' ; people would stay to' help her ' , then when they left I would have to go and pick the pieces up , settle the boys, re supply the fire food they burnt up to keep themselves warm  ...... 

 

Regarding that ; 'its going to be alright'   . Do you think this is a modern thing ?   It appears to be in astrology , the old 'born under a bad sign' seems unpop .  In the old days, bad natal configuration ; Sorry , you're fucked . Better go straight to damage control    Now  ?  

 

Well, that is a terrible thing to say ..... I should be ashamed of myself !  

 

here you go  guys .... have a ' came first at the other end ' award  .

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:25 AM, Taoist Texts said:

of course. the westerners are so materialist that they are loath to even look up the definition.  They make  karma material like a house or some such thing which is totally opposite to the real eastern concept:

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.^{[web 1][note 4]}

 

 

And now for something really unpopular--Mark quotes himself, quoting the Pali sermons:
 

Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294)

 

“When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows.
 

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:
 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.  (SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)
 

Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible:
 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.  (3)

 

He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.  (4)

[Mark Foote]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:25 AM, Taoist Texts said:

of course. the westerners are so materialist that they are loath to even look up the definition.  They make  karma material like a house or some such thing which is totally opposite to the real eastern concept:

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.^{[web 1][note 4]}

 

 

And now for something really unpopular--Mark quotes himself, quoting the Pali sermons:
 

Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action:

 

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. 

(AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294, emphasis added)

 

“When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows.
 

Gautama also spoke of “the activities”.  The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition:
 

And what are the activities?  These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind.  These are activities.  

(SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4)

 

Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible:
 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.  

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85)

 

He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease:
 

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling.  

(SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146)

 

Gautama spoke in detail about the experience associated with his enlightenment (his enlightenment being his insight into the causation of suffering), and said that that experience meant that "destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’."
 

…And again, Ananda, [an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to the solitude of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. [One] regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends:  'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] s true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realisation of emptiness.

 

("Lesser Discourse on Emptiness", Culasunnatasutta, Pali Text Society MN III 121 vol III p 151-2)

 

 

"Destroyed is birth", seemingly an end to karma--karma being the boomerang effect of "determinate thought" in action of speech, body, or mind.

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; )

 

 

Edited July 11 by Mark Foote