Very unpopular opinions

[Mark Foote]

22 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Think yerselves lucky ... my brother-in-law informed me that when he worked for Telecom , the 'in' practical joke was to connect 24v up to the stainless steel Men's room urinal trough .
 

 

My high school social studies teacher talked about working at a filling station, back in the day, and I guess when the bathroom was occupied guys would go around back and piss on a tin sheet that was back there.  He hooked up a coil--should have seen him smile when he recounted the reactions.

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

My high school social studies teacher talked about working at a filling station, back in the day, and I guess when the bathroom was occupied guys would go around back and piss on a tin sheet that was back there.  He hooked up a coil--should have seen him smile when he recounted the reactions.

 

one of my favorites ;  a friend had a nice flat in Bondi , 50s retro style . The few residents  looked after it well  and maintained the exterior , it was on a corner of a laneway and near a hotel. he got annoyed at drunks ducking around the corner and urinating late at night when pub closed . The smell began to waft up to his  window. So one night he sees  two guys pissing down there and tipped his orange juice out on to one of their heads .

 

As drunks do , for some reason , one blamed the other one for pissing on him , and the other did likewise . A fight started and mate watched them beat the shit out of each other  for 'pisssing on each others heads ' ... while they where standing side by side pissing on the ground  !    ahhh , alcohol, wonderful stuff .

 

As mate said ; " At least they saved me the trouble of going down there and beating them up .'    

[Mark Foote]

23 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I appreciate your enthusiasm. Historical authenticity, when it comes to the Buddha's teachings, doesn't concern me.
 

 

Yes, I've come to that conclusion.
 

 

Quote

 

Perhaps. I will never know, I don't intend to go looking.  If you are interested in the source of his teaching, you could ask him. I have heard he is an enthusiastic and friendly emailer. 
 

 

I did email him, years ago.  We agreed to disagree.

 

 

Quote

 

I don't think you get one-pointedness until 4th jhana, actually, which is the first of the "formless" jhanas. In 4th jhana the factors of sukha and dukka drop away and there is just equanimity and emptiness. 
 

 

 

And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.

 

(Pali Text Society MN I 249, vol I p 303)

 

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.  

 

(Pali Text Society SN V 198, vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

 

Quote

 

First jhana is concentration on the sensation of piti. There is still thought. I don't think it is possible that thought and one-pointedness co-exist.
 

 

 

"Piti" was translated as "zest" by F. L. Woodward, in the paragraph about the 1st concentration I quoted above.

 

That's actually been something I've only found my way into recently, the "suffusion" of the body with zest and ease as in Gautama's description of the practice of the first concentration:

 

 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

 

(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

 

The bath-ball I believe is a metaphor for "one-pointedness of mind".

 

My take:
 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.

 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

 

And yet, there is the feeling of ease for me that kicks in with gravity as the source of activity, and the extension of that ease while experiencing one-pointedness of mind I find provides a continuity.  One-pointedness, the soap-ball, and the suffusion of the body (with no particle left out) with zest and ease--odd the way Gautama combined these seemingly disparate elements, isn't it? 

 

 

Quote

 

 

Once our man Syd became an Arhat his mind would naturally have defaulted to a formless jhana in day to day consciousness. I would say 5th because it is the perfection of equanimity.

 

 

 

You're talking about "the infinity of ether", the first of the further states?  Gautama never referred to any of the further states by number, in the first four Nikayas.

All the states of concentration are described by Gautama as having equanimity as a characteristic, the first four equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, and the further states equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses.

Maybe you're talking about the third jhana:
 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’ 

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

 

Quote

 

 

Wherever you place your attention, whatever object you use in meditation, THERE is your awareness. I have come across similar practices before. 
 

 

 

Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts.

 

(“The Mahamudra:  Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche)

 

... as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

(Koun Franz, "No Struggle" from his Nyoho Zen site)

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

Quote

 

Yes, I would agree with you. Using exercises where we move awareness we can take that apart a bit and see that the awareness we are comes from where awareness rests. Ultimately the Ayatana (senses) are seen to be empty... without specific location, not belonging to a self, happening now (see your Suzuki quote above).

 

Find out for yourself if you are curious.
 

Well and good. 

Find out for yourself, how the location where awareness rests is the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing, and let me know when you experience the emptiness of the cessation of feeling and perceiving.

 

It's one thing to experience spontaneous feeling and perceiving in daily life, and quite another I think, to sit down and bring the spontaneity of feeling and perceiving about.

 

 

 

Edited June 4 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide.

 

(Pali Text Society MN I 249, vol I p 303)

 

 

Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness.  (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein.  

 

(Pali Text Society SN V 198, vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

Interesting. I was using your previous quote to determine what he meant by one-pointedness in this context:

 

Quote

“And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments?  It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness.  Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.”

 

(Pali Text Society, MN III 71vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan)

 

If the Noble Eightfold Path's "Right Samadhi" is necessary for "one-pointedness" then I would have to be "formless", since the only way to perfect the Noble Eightfold Path is enlightenment. Perhaps it is a broader term and does simply mean uninterrupted focus. 

 

Quote

"Piti" was translated as "zest" by F. L. Woodward, in the paragraph about the 1st concentration I quoted above.

 

That's actually been something I've only found my way into recently, the "suffusion" of the body with zest and ease as in Gautama's description of the practice of the first concentration:

 

 

… just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.

 

(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

 

The bath-ball I believe is a metaphor for "one-pointedness of mind".

 

So what does "zest" mean to you, then? What is it that is suffusing your body in your experience? Zest certainly isn't something I associate with meditation. I think this makes much more sense:

 

Quote

 

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html

 

On the same page it says:

 

Quote

Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention. It is the cornerstone in the development of Right Concentration.

 

...suggesting that it is only foundational to the Eightfold Path. 

 

Quote

My take:
 

Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused.

 

If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease.

 

("To Enjoy Our Life")

 

And yet, there is the feeling of ease for me that kicks in with gravity as the source of activity, and the extension of that ease while experiencing one-pointedness of mind I find provides a continuity.  One-pointedness, the soap-ball, and the suffusion of the body (with no particle left out) with zest and ease--odd the way Gautama combined these seemingly disparate elements, isn't it?

 

My experience is that you can take the object of either piti or sukkha and, noticing that it is a factor by finding it in the body (sukkha) or mind (piti) allow it to migrate from wherever you notice it, suffusing the rest of the body. The simple joy of sukkha is like the pleasure of a warm bath and piti is a sort of mental relaxation, like drinking a glass of cold water on a hot day but for the mind. 

 

Depending on the translation it makes sense to me, but it certainly speaks from a decidedly antique perspective. 

 

Quote

You're talking about "the infinity of ether", the first of the further states?  Gautama never referred to any of the further states by number, in the first four Nikayas.

 

Looks like there 9 in the fourth Nikaya. It would be fourth in this list, the "utter peacefulness" referring specifically to the completeness of equanimity that defines it. 

 

 

Quote

 

1. Delightful Sensations
2. Joy
3. Contentment
4. Utter peacefulness
5. Infinity of space
6. Infinity of consciousness
7. No-thingness
8. Neither perception nor non-perception
9. Cessation

(from Anguttara Nikaya 9.36)

 

 

 

Quote

All the states of concentration are described by Gautama as having equanimity as a characteristic, the first four equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, and the further states equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses.

Maybe you're talking about the third jhana:
 

(One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’ 

(Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147)

 

Only in the 4th jhana is the mindfulness pure and the equanimity complete, as it is without the other factors.

 

Quote

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

— AN 5.28

 

or:

 

Quote

Further, with the abandoning of sukkha and dukkha,, and with the previous passing away of somanassa and damanasa, one enters and dwells in fourth jhana, which is adukkha and asukha and contains mindfulness fully purified by equanimity. One sits suffusing one's body with a pure bright mind, so that there is no part of on'es entire body not suffused by the pure bright mind. (DN 2.81)

 

 

Quote

Find out for yourself, how the location where awareness rests is the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing, and let me know when you experience the emptiness of the cessation of feeling and perceiving.

 

I'd still love a plain english version of what you are suggesting here. I might try it, but I'd need some clarity about what you mean. What are you looking for here, or hoping will happen? Is this a key practice to becoming enlightened in your mind?

 

The entire field of experience is ultimately awareness, so it rests everywhere. I can look in between breaths, but it isn't any kind of special location. If it was enlightenment it would persist even during breath, or anything else. In any moment feeling and perceiving are constant, though the experience of a "self" that perceives them is gone. 

 

Quote

It's one thing to experience spontaneous feeling and perceiving in daily life, and quite another I think, to sit down and bring the spontaneity of feeling and perceiving about.

 

How are they different? Are you saying that YOU are in charge of feeling and perceiving?

 

Bows.

 

 

 

Edited June 4 by stirling
Missing words, zealous typing.

[old3bob]

On 6/2/2024 at 12:25 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

I sympathize, old3bob!

DC, froze you to the contact?

 

 

fortunately the dc didn't freeze a connection on me.  I also once operated  (breakers, generators  and busses) of lots other high voltage equipment ranging through 440, 1k, 4.160k, 13.8k and 34.5k in industry.  (that use 3 phase power)

Edited June 4 by old3bob

[forestofclarity]

14 hours ago, stirling said:

Perhaps it is a broader term and does simply mean uninterrupted focus. 

 

I would imagine that would be vicara. Ekkagata can also mean unification, i.e., I don't think the suttas explain how large or small the "point" is. But it can also mean predominated by, in the direction of, one with, etc. and is a universal factor per Adbhidhamma. I think in a jhana context we usually have ekodibhāva, which sounds to me like a unified state rather than being focused on a singular object, but again the one can be variously defined. Zest I would tend to associate more with viriya, or energy, but who is to say. The thing about using piti as a focus is that it tends to develop a feedback loop into deeper relaxation. At any rate, I've seen different teachers gloss the same suttas differently to fit whatever method they happen to teach. 

 

But this is the whole issue. Even a single word has many, and possibly infinite meanings, as it should given emptiness. 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/3/2024 at 6:28 PM, stirling said:

 

I'd still love a plain english version of what you are suggesting here. I might try it, but I'd need some clarity about what you mean. What are you looking for here, or hoping will happen? Is this a key practice to becoming enlightened in your mind?

 

The entire field of experience is ultimately awareness, so it rests everywhere. I can look in between breaths, but it isn't any kind of special location. If it was enlightenment it would persist even during breath, or anything else. In any moment feeling and perceiving are constant, though the experience of a "self" that perceives them is gone. 

 

How are they different? Are you saying that YOU are in charge of feeling and perceiving?

 

Bows.

 

 

 

The things you've quoted, they're all good.  I do prefer the Pali Text Society translations, but they're not searchable online so far as I know.

 

Let me be clear, I'm not hoping to attain the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving.  Gautama's enlightenment, I think, came out of his experience of emptiness in that attainment.

 

I'm looking to discover Gautama's way of living, as he outlined in "The Chapter on Inbreathing and Outbreathing" in SN V, in my own life.

 

My impression is that his way of living depends on regular experience of the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) inbreathing and outbreathing, experience that he set up daily through seated meditation and that I believe recurred to him regularly through his thought initial and sustained.  

 

Why were each of his thoughts initial and sustained connected with an inbreath and outbreath?  I think it was because of his long discipline to the necessity that places attention in the movement of breath, whether that necessity is the simple necessity of air in the lungs or the necessity to generate support for the lumbar spine in each movement of breath. 

 

Necessity can place attention, and a presence of mind with that placement and an extension of feeling to allow that placement to shift and move anywhere in the body ("with no particle left out") constitutes the initial concentration.  For me, the extension of feeling begins with a sense of gravity, then shifts to a feeling of ease and an accompanying clarity.  Is that clarity "zest"?--clarity does allow for a certain energy.  At any rate, that's what I feel.

 

The pattern of thought Gautama identified works well for me, or at least the highlights of that pattern of thought.  Begin with relaxation, physical relaxation in the body connected with the activity of breath.  One-pointedness of mind is apart from feeling the body, it's just a location in space, yet when I relax I find feeling for a particular part of the body associated with one-pointedness of mind.  Gravity is there, then ease, clarity, and extension.  As the stretch of ligaments is engaged, calm is helpful.  If I appreciate the thinking mind, then I can detach from thought, and allow one-pointedness to begin to coordinate the activity of the body.

The stretch of ligaments tends to arrive at the ligaments that connect the pelvis to the sacrum.  For me the trick is to recognize that the stretch in the ligaments controls the reciprocation in the muscles in the front of the lower abdomen--the source of the activity is the calm stretch of ligaments and I just relax the muscles.  Thought initial and sustained ceases and there's a particular feeling:
 

… imagine a pool with a spring, but no water-inlet on the east side or the west side or on the north or on the south, and suppose the (rain-) deva supply not proper rains from time to time–cool waters would still well up from that pool, and that pool would be steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with the cold water so that not a drop but would be pervaded by the cold water; in just the same way… (one) steeps (their) body with zest and ease…

 

 

Omori Sogen offered a quote from Hida Haramitsu, who spoke of shifting ‘the center of the body’s weight”:

 

We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body.
 

(Hida Haramitsu, “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added)

 

 

Sogen cautioned:

 

… It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting.  We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over instead of putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force. 

 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training:  A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59)

 

 

There comes a moment when the stretch moves upward from the ilio-sacral joints, and likewise the corresponding activity in the abdominals moves upward.  The way I find to experience gravity as the source of activity then entails the inclusion of the extremities, somehow, in the feeling of location in the body associated with "one-pointedness".
 

… free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease.

 

Things can shift from activity in the body coordinated by "one-pointedness", to activity that takes place solely by virtue of the free location of "one-pointedness":

 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… 

 

(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28 Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134)

 

I find myself redoubling presence of mind with the location of consciousness (whilst mindful of the freedom of consciousness to move), to make the transition to activity solely by virtue of the free location of "one-pointedness".

That the head is involved, I suspect has to do with adding the stretch of ligaments connected with the skull and jaw and activity controlled by that stretch.  Other lectures, like the one you quoted, describe the clean cloth swathing the head and the entire body.  An evenness in the stretch of ligaments, from the pelvis and sacrum through the atlas and the occiput, likely results in an ease in the exits of nerves between vertebrae and an evenness of sensation or feeling in the corresponding dermatomes.

 

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24, transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

Thanks, Stirling.  The cessation of feeling and perceiving is the final attainment--here's some of Gautama's teaching on the further states:

 

The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”:

 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

 

(Pali Text Society MN I 38, Vol I p 48)

 

 

The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.

 

The fourth of the further states Gautama described as “neither perception nor yet non-perception”. He gave no specific instruction on the transition from the third state to the fourth, but equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses (see PTS MN III 220, Vol III p 268-269) is still present in the fourth.

 

(The Early Record)

 

 

Equanimity with regard to the uniformity of the senses is transcended by lack of desire, "by means of lack of desire", to arrive at the cessation of feeling and perceiving.

 

 

All this is thoroughly unpopular among modern Buddhists, I'm afraid.

 

 

 

Edited June 5 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The things you've quoted, they're all good.  I do prefer the Pali Text Society translations, but they're not searchable online so far as I know.

 

That's the trouble with these things, isn't it. There are different translations from different eras with different interpretations. If I were doing something scholarly with it all, or it was my special area of interest I would probably go to the trouble to work with it all in more detail. While I feel qualified to talk about it from the standpoint of its bearing on enlightenment, the specifics sometimes strike me as poorly translated. It is of interesting, but isn't my training and from a practice perspective is quite foreign to either the Zen approach or the Dzogchen approach I have spent my attention on and am attracted to practice. 

 

Ultimately, what matters, IMHO is that we find practices we are drawn to and devote ourselves to them wholeheartedly, ideally  in the company of teacher that can help us keep it straight and clear. 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Let me be clear, I'm not hoping to attain the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving.  Gautama's enlightenment, I think, came out of his experience of emptiness in that attainment.

 

I dunno about the rest, but I agree that he found emptiness, which is what I would hope we all find in our practices. 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

I'm looking to discover Gautama's way of living, as he outlined in "The Chapter on Inbreathing and Outbreathing" in SN V, in my own life.

 

My impression is...

 

It won't surprise you, I am sure, that I find this idea of practice rather overcomplicated. Speaking for myself, I am entirely convinced that the simplicity of Zazen, and then hopefully or possibly, Shikantaza (by whichever label, from whatever tradition you might prefer), some type of morality teaching (precepts, bodhisattva training, or perhaps the Tibetan Lojong training) and perhaps learning to work with attachment and aversion through one's obscurations are a good setup. My experience is that enlightenment isn't hard to see or identify, so a lot of practices add unnecessary complexity... which isn't to say that complexity might not be precisely what some might need. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24, transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

I agree with Suzuki Roshi on this count.  Zazen and Shikantaza are VERY simple in principle. 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The cessation of feeling and perceiving is the final attainment--here's some of Gautama's teaching on the further states:

 

The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”:

 

[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence.

 

(Pali Text Society MN I 38, Vol I p 48)

 

The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.

 

The fourth of the further states Gautama described as “neither perception nor yet non-perception”. He gave no specific instruction on the transition from the third state to the fourth, but equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses (see PTS MN III 220, Vol III p 268-269) is still present in the fourth.

 

(The Early Record)

 

 

Equanimity with regard to the uniformity of the senses is transcended by lack of desire, "by means of lack of desire", to arrive at the cessation of feeling and perceiving.

 

My understanding is that there are 8 and then cessation:

 

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/9_Jhanas#The_Fourth_Jhana:_Utter_Peacefulness

 

Cessation (Nirodha) is the 3rd Noble Truth and something (impermanently) we can all experience. 

 

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

All this is thoroughly unpopular among modern Buddhists, I'm afraid.

 

Probably. It doesn't look like any Buddhist tradition I have learnt about, honestly. That isn't to say it might not be YOUR dharma door.

[old3bob]

inherent knowledge is already there, added knowledge is interesting but can not cross over

[Mark Foote]

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

inherent knowledge is already there, added knowledge is interesting but can not cross over
 

 

 

Stirling's favorite quote:

 

Enlightenment is an accident--practice makes us accident prone. 

 

Often attributed to Shunryu Suzuki, turns out the quote and the source are more likely Krishnamurti:

 

Enlightenment is an accident, but some activities make you accident-prone.

 

(http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/dubious.htm)

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

10 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Stirling's favorite quote:

 

Enlightenment is an accident--practice makes us accident prone. 

 

Often attributed to Shunryu Suzuki, turns out the quote and the source are more likely Krishnamurti:

 

Enlightenment is an accident, but some activities make you accident-prone.

 

(http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/dubious.htm)

 

 

um, that context doesn't line up all that well to me per my submission, but no biggy.

 

btw, I'd say such accidents don't happen although that phrase is cute like.

Edited June 5 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

7 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

btw, I'd say such accidents don't happen although that phrase is cute like.
 

 

 

How then do you propose a person becomes enlightened, if "added knowledge is interesting but can not cross over"?

 

 

[Cobie]

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

How then … a person becomes enlightened … ?

 by not quoting scripture (what is Buddhist scripture called?) 

 

 

 

Edited June 5 by Cobie

[old3bob]

11 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

How then do you propose a person becomes enlightened, if "added knowledge is interesting but can not cross over"?

 

 

Only the great Tao can answer that, many may choose but that does not mean we or the many are chosen...also the idea that one can't take their earthly belongings with them when passing from the earth realm is similar to (but on a different level) being that you can't take your mental knowledge with you when going "beyond the beyond". 

Edited June 6 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

 by not quoting scripture (what is Buddhist scripture called?) 

 

 

 

I will gladly quote scripture next Tuesday, for a plate of zazen today!

 

 

 

A sutta, sutra, hokey-pokey libretto...

A person can hokey-pokey without a libretto, but no one sang like Gautama the Sakyan.  

 

 

Edited June 6 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 6/4/2024 at 6:07 PM, stirling said:

 

Probably. It doesn't look like any Buddhist tradition I have learnt about, honestly. That isn't to say it might not be YOUR dharma door.

 

 

How about Dogen?

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself” (as Nisargadatta taught), activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

 

(Take the Backward Step)

 

 

Let me guess--your idea of a good time is Yuanwu:

 

When you arrive at last at towering up like a mile-high wall, you will finally know that there aren’t so many things.

 

(“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, translated by Cleary & Cleary, 1st ed p 83)

 

 

[doc benway]

Very unpopular opinion #108:

The universe is not locally real.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/

[Nintendao]

22 hours ago, steve said:

Very unpopular opinion #108:

The universe is not locally real.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-universe-is-not-locally-real-and-the-physics-nobel-prize-winners-proved-it/

 

After all this time the answer to that question “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?” is proving more interesting than a lot of people gave it credit for!

[Mark Foote]

Unpopular:

 

You can't get there from here.

 

Also unpopular:

Wherever you go, there you are!

 

Wildly popular:
 

We'll meet again
Don't know where
Don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day

Keep smiling through
Just like you always do
'Til the blue skies chase those dark clouds far away

 

 

[Apech]

12 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Unpopular:

 

You can't get there from here.

 

Also unpopular:

Wherever you go, there you are!

 

Wildly popular:
 

We'll meet again
Don't know where
Don't know when
But I know we'll meet again some sunny day

Keep smiling through
Just like you always do
'Til the blue skies chase those dark clouds far away

 

 

What’s a bidet?

Two days before D Day.

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

What’s a bidet?

Two days before D Day.

 

Q: What comes after D Day?

A: Ebay

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

What’s a bidet?

Two days before D Day.

 

Q: What comes after D Day?

A: Ebay

 

 

 

Ow.  Ow ow ow.

 

Skipping ahead in Australia, it's g'day.

 

[Tommy]

Life sucks and then you die

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Life sucks and then you die

 

First noble truth lol

[Nungali]

Harrumph !   

 

Life is great .... then you die and it gets even better !