Very unpopular opinions

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

There is no gradual path which is not sudden. There is no sudden path which is not gradual.  There is no path.  Everything is the path unless it isn’t.

 

an anti-guru is not a guru, just a sounding box in denial...

[stirling]

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Not necessarily, depends what you mean, a spiritual experience can happen while dreaming or daydreaming ( what people used to call visions ). The experience itself may transcend space time.

It depends on what you mean, while experiences and in specific non dual realisations may transcend space time, of course everything still happens in spacetime, but the focus is on an experience whose message transcends it.

 

What I am trying to get at is that non-dual insight into emptiness will definitely include seeing through the delusion of space/time/self-hood. There is no experiencer, or some might say the fabric of everything is the experiencer. It isn't an experience, it is seeing the underlying substratum that underpins all experiencing. It is a glimpse, and eventually a full-time seeing behind the curtain. It is a persistent understanding that is always present. 

 

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

For me the non dual realisations are the most important spiritual experiences.

 

It would be, yes. But, what IS a non-dual realization in your estimation? How would you define one?

 

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

My experience is that there's a transcendental part in us that is common. In parallel there's still a self though and everything that various personality structure theories study. We use mental/intellectual constructs to describe these as part of a body of knowledge of course but they exist in that these concepts have explanatory power. They can also be experienced directly ( one example for direct experiencing is eg ego state therapies )

 

I see. Thank you.

 

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

For me the "best" way to describe it is seeing the unborn, seeing what's deeper than all the personality layers that were acquired later and various theories of personality structure do a very good job at shining light on.

This doesn't mean the rest of the stuff is not there, because it is, but it means there's a layer, a ground state of sorts.

 

What I am describing would be underneath anything you could describe as a system, category, or structure. I understand that this may not make a lot of sense, or even seem possible.

 

11 hours ago, snowymountains said:

We've discussed it elsewhere if I recall, I don't see Samatha-Vipassana as a practice that's sufficient to uncover a lot of things in us. It is very helpful though and a good starting point but I believe it needs to be complemented. So in a sense insight meditation is not sufficient for insight.

 

Yes, I believe we have agreed to disagree.  Samatha-Vipassana is ultimately aiming at a deeper level underneath psychological or mental constructs, and in my experience is about as good as any practice for gnosis.

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

…I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. 

 

(Pali Text Society SN IV 217, vol IV p 146)

 

By "trance" he means jhana. Movement through them is shifting attention from the outside world... it is definitely gradual, but not related to awakening, since the jhanas are passing states, unlike stream-entry and enlightenment. 

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama could apparently sit down and run through all the concentrations, all of these cessations, forwards and backwards.

 

Me too! You could likely do it too, since you have been a meditator for so many years, and probably already rest, at least briefly, if not for longer periods, in shikantaza. 

 

More on the jhanas here from Leigh Brassington, arguably our finest contemporary instructor on the topic:

 

https://www.leighb.com/jhanas.htm

 

Give it a try! Free instruction on the first one or two:

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

…I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought.  (Pali Text Society AN III 415, Vol III p 294)

 

This sounds eerily familiar somehow.

 

5 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Most of what passes for enlightenment out there is the attainment of the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" accompanied by the fifth limb of concentration, the "survey-sign" overview after that cessation.  The deepening is the gradual adoption of a mindfulness that allows the experience of the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" as a part of every day living.

 

This is an interesting assertion. At face value, I don't think I can agree with you. How about some definitions in plain language on these. What is cessation of in/out breathing, and how is it an attainment? What is the "fifth limb", or a "survey sign". At face value it sounds like you are saying that if we stop breathing we are enlightened, but I am sure this isn't what you are intending to share. 

[Mark Foote]

 

 

 

Take the Backward Step

 

On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote:

 

Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”.

 

I was reminded of Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

 

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)

 

 

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjokoan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

42 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

This is an interesting assertion. At face value, I don't think I can agree with you. How about some definitions in plain language on these. What is cessation of in/out breathing, and how is it an attainment? What is the "fifth limb", or a "survey sign". At face value it sounds like you are saying that if we stop breathing we are enlightened, but I am sure this isn't what you are intending to share. 
 

 

Thanks for that, Stirling.

 

Suzuki said:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit.

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

The cessation of "doing something" on the cushion is "just sitting", and "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing".

 

I've written about that cessation:

 

Gautama spoke of the “activity” of deed, but when he spoke of the ceasing of the activities, he spoke of the ceasing of “inbreathing and outbreathing”.  Even when “determinate thought” is not directly involved in the movement of the diaphragm, actions in the body that are occasioned by “determinate thought” affect the movement of breath, and can leave a residue of habit that further affects the movement of breath.  If “activity” in inbreathing and outbreathing has really ceased, then the “determinate thought” that gives rise to “activity” in the body of any kind must likewise have ceased.

 

“The cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” is not an actual stoppage of breath. Gautama only spoke about the stoppage of breath once, in a description of the practices he undertook as an ascetic:

 

So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears.  When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body.  Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain.  But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind…

 

(MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299)

 

 

Stopping the breath in and the breath out did not satisfy Gautama’s quest to “bring to a close the (holy)-faring”.  Only after he had abandoned such ascetic practices did he enter the states of concentration, and attain the state that caused him to say, “done is what was to be done”. 

 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

Here's Gautama's description of the fourth of the initial concentrations, where "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" takes place, with the follow-on description of the "survey-sign":

 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity…  this is fourthly how to make become the five-limbed (noble) right concentration.

 

Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. ... this is fifthly how to make become the five-limbed (noble) right concentration.

 

(Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19)

 

 

When Gautama talks about "the fifth limb of concentration", he's not talking about the first of the further states ("the infinity of ether").  I believe he regularly sat to the fourth concentration, took the survey-sign, and used it to recall the fourth concentration in the thought initial and sustained that made up his way of living.

 

Regarding the "purity by the pureness of mind" of the fourth concentration, I wrote:

 

“Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases. When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

"Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of one-pointedness"--then for me, just relax, feel, calm, detach, cease.  Rinse and repeat.

 

Edited June 1 by Mark Foote

[old3bob]

another use of breath control: but you better know what you are doing!!  (underwater or on a mat)

If I heard correctly in the narration this diver was down 100 meters which is well over 300 feet!!  Heck if one goes only goes down 10-15 feet you can feel the pressure  building...

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1 by old3bob

[snowymountains]

10 hours ago, stirling said:

 

What I am trying to get at is that non-dual insight into emptiness will definitely include seeing through the delusion of space/time/self-hood. There is no experiencer, or some might say the fabric of everything is the experiencer. It isn't an experience, it is seeing the underlying substratum that underpins all experiencing. It is a glimpse, and eventually a full-time seeing behind the curtain. It is a persistent understanding that is always present. 

 

 

It would be, yes. But, what IS a non-dual realization in your estimation? How would you define one?

 

About the same way you describe above, as an example, something that is felt, as opposed cognitively realised, and transcends the strict notions of a self within a body.

 

10 hours ago, stirling said:

What I am describing would be underneath anything you could describe as a system, category, or structure. I understand that this may not make a lot of sense, or even seem possible.

 

It does make a lot of sense, yes it is underneath, it was there before these were created, nevermind conceived cognitively. It truly is an unborn, all the rest begins about after 20 weeks from conception.

 

10 hours ago, stirling said:

Yes, I believe we have agreed to disagree.  Samatha-Vipassana is ultimately aiming at a deeper level underneath psychological or mental constructs, and in my experience is about as good as any practice for gnosis.

 

On this indeed we agree to disagree. For me the gap is twofold, one part is that meditation practices in isolation will not reveal a lot of things and also Buddhism provides only a partial answer the question of what to do with "Sati" when the skill has been built, which imo is the point where the real work begins. But let's leave this for another thread. The practice is very good though, just not sufficient.

Edited June 1 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

More on the jhanas here from Leigh Brassington, arguably our finest contemporary instructor on the topic:

 

https://www.leighb.com/jhanas.htm

 

I haven't watched what you guys are discussing but an fyi, Leigh Brassington does not teach exactly canon jhana work. I hear he is excellent at what he teaches/works on btw (no direct affiliation).

[Apech]

5 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

About the same way you describe above, as an example, something that is felt, as opposed cognitively realised, and transcends the strict notions of a self within a body.

 

A non-dual realisation (even tho this is a nonsense term really) is a direct insight of the 'not two ness' of subject and object.  It has feeling associated with it, joyful loving feelings, but it is not the feelings.  'Body' is another matter of course which is changed in perspective by the realisation - there is no actual transcendence in this respect - as transcendence is only something we think about from our side of the thing.

 

5 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

It does make a lot of sense, yes it is underneath, it was there before these were created, nevermind conceived cognitively. It truly is an unborn, all the rest begins about after 20 weeks from conception.

 

The 'unborn' is the cause, the path and the result - even the obstruction is the path.

 

5 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

On this indeed we agree to disagree. For me the gap is twofold, one part is that meditation practices in isolation will not reveal a lot of things and also Buddhism provides only a partial answer the question of what to do with "Sati" when the skill has been built, which imo is the point where the real work begins. But let's leave this for another thread. The practice is very good though, just not sufficient.

 

In Mahamudra practice the view of shamatha/vipasanya is different.  In a way they no longer comprise practices or techniques but are the actual settling or resting in the immediacy of mind/awareness and the seeing what the awareness is, its nature.  Techniques may be used to introduce yourself to this experience (wrong word but will have to do) but the meditation has no process or technique in the end.  There is no further stage of elaboration needed.

 

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

44 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

A non-dual realisation (even tho this is a nonsense term really) is a direct insight of the 'not two ness' of subject and object.  It has feeling associated with it, joyful loving feelings, but it is not the feelings.  'Body' is another matter of course which is changed in perspective by the realisation - there is no actual transcendence in this respect - as transcendence is only something we think about from our side of the thing.

 

 

The 'unborn' is the cause, the path and the result - even the obstruction is the path.

 

👍

 

45 minutes ago, Apech said:

In Mahamudra practice the view of shamatha/vipasanya is different.  In a way they no longer comprise practices or techniques but are the actual settling or resting in the immediacy of mind/awareness and the seeing what the awareness is, its nature.  Techniques may be used to introduce yourself to this experience (wrong word but will have to do) but the meditation has no process or technique in the end.  There is no further stage of elaboration needed.

 

I haven't practiced mahamudra but I'm referring to big gaps not to twists in how it's done.

Meditation as a practice ( any meditation ) is not sufficient for becoming aware of lot of things about us and also, there's a lot that meditation cannot transform in us.

 

Meditation is a very good practice but like everything else it has its scope and applicability.

 

Expanding would take a long post that unfortunately I don't have time for at the moment.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

👍

 

 

I haven't practiced mahamudra but I'm referring to big gaps not to twists in how it's done.

Meditation as a practice ( any meditation ) is not sufficient for becoming aware of lot of things about us and also, there's a lot that meditation cannot transform in us.

 

Meditation is a very good practice but like everything else it has its scope and applicability.

 

Expanding would take a long post that unfortunately I don't have time for at the moment.

The point I was trying to make is that the ‘meditation’ ceases to be a practice - for instance there is a stage called ‘ non meditation’ of Mahamudra.

[stirling]

8 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I haven't watched what you guys are discussing but an fyi, Leigh Brassington does not teach exactly canon jhana work. I hear he is excellent at what he teaches/works on btw (no direct affiliation).

 

Leigh's interpretation IS modern, but he bases it on the Pali texts (like most of what he does) as you can see in this piece I linked to earlier that is largely derivative of his book:

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/

 

It IS a commentary, but commentaries aren't particularly rare or controversial. Many Buddhist practices are made to sound impossible or extremely difficult in the modern era but most of them ARE achievable with some work. Even enlightenment IS a possibility in this lifetime. 

 

The classics are integral and foundational, but these traditions aren't dead. There have been enlightened teachers sharing practices and wisdom since long before the Buddha, and there are still plenty of them on the planet today. They offer new perspectives that reflect the lives of people living NOW. 

 

[forestofclarity]

9 hours ago, snowymountains said:

haven't watched what you guys are discussing but an fyi, Leigh Brassington does not teach exactly canon jhana work. I hear he is excellent at what he teaches/works on btw (no direct affiliation).

Leigh B teaches more sutta jhana as opposed to visuddhimagga jhana, so it is canon just not in subsequent commentary.
 

https://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm

 

[stirling]

8 hours ago, snowymountains said:

On this indeed we agree to disagree. For me the gap is twofold, one part is that meditation practices in isolation will not reveal a lot of things and also Buddhism provides only a partial answer the question of what to do with "Sati" when the skill has been built, which imo is the point where the real work begins. But let's leave this for another thread. The practice is very good though, just not sufficient.

 

Let me take one last stab at this:

 

Meditation creates the space for trauma to come up. It isn't intended to DIG it up, or force anything, but operates under the principle that living life itself is enough to create situations that surface trauma and undealt with situations, thoughts and feelings. 

 

Mindfulness (Sati) changes our relationship to the world. Properly developed (with both some morality training and bodhicitta practices)  mindfulness gives us a pause in our reactivity and changes how we relate to difficult situations as they arise, thus reducing the load of new karma we are creating. By having less clinging and aversion to what life throws up we create less future karma to untwist. Meditation, when all techniques are dropped, is, in essence the SAME as enlightened mind, though we don't have the insight to see it. The benefits of resting the mind in its own nature are the same, but at a much milder level, as just BEING enlightened Mind. 

 

When putting together a puzzle one often creates little subgroups of assembled pieces that seem to go in a particular area. We know as we are doing this that all of these subgroups comprise a whole defined by the border, but can only speculate about what whole might actually look like (leaving aside the picture on the box lid for the moment). But, how would the puzzle be if we suddenly knew how the whole actually was, intimately? This is a decent metaphor to represent our work on the path. 

 

I have personally found great value in working to take apart my "core wounds" using the path of therapy, but that was only ever putting together some of the puzzle pieces into little assembled groups. Illuminating little corners of the larger picture. This isn't to say that doing so wasn't cumulatively valuable! 

 

Insight/awakening/stream-entry is a moment where suddenly the whole puzzle becomes visible. One realizes that the puzzle was never ultimately these small groups but was in fact always the "big picture". Now with the ability to see the "big picture", wounds can be seen to belong to an imaginary self, not the larger awareness we have always been. Over time, life continues to throw up situations that might have created drama in the past, but now it is obvious how our past karma created suffering out of these experience for us and we are liberated from having to act from our previous patterns. We realize that the person with thought we were, with all of their attachments, aversions and karma was never truly real, and that our relationship to worldly situations was born of a misunderstanding about the nature of reality. 

[snowymountains]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

The point I was trying to make is that the ‘meditation’ ceases to be a practice - for instance there is a stage called ‘ non meditation’ of Mahamudra.

 

That stage exists in all traditions, it's still not sufficient.

It's good to have 24/7 sati, but it still won't register some things and even if it did it doesn't address to a satisfactory degree what to do with it.

[Mark Foote]

21 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Give it a try! Free instruction on the first one or two:

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/entering-the-jhanas/

 

 

 

From the article:

 

The jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness, brought on via concentration, each yielding more concentration than the previous. As you pass through the jhanas, you stair-step your way to deeper and deeper levels of concentration—that is, you become less and less likely to become distracted. Upon emerging from the jhanas—preferably the fourth or higher—you begin doing an insight practice with your jhanically concentrated, indistractable mind. This is the heart of the method the Buddha discovered. These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest. They are simply a way of preparing your mind so you can more effectively examine reality and discover the deeper truths that lead to liberation.

 

 

So:

 

Upon emerging from the jhanas—preferably the fourth or higher—you begin doing an insight practice with your jhanically concentrated, indistractable mind. This is the heart of the method the Buddha discovered.

 

 

Gautama's enlightenment is associated with his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving."  Here's his account, from the sermon "Emptiness (Lesser)":

 

 

... not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, [one] attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [One's] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [One] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of  it.  But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends:  'That being, this is.'  Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] a true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realization of emptiness.

 

(Pali Text Society MN III vol. III 108-109, p 151-2; bracketed replaces gendered nouns/pronouns; translator's parenthetical omitted)

 

"That being, this is".  In a nutshell, dependent origination in action. 

 

I don't read that as "upon emerging from the jhanas... you begin doing an insight practice", do you?

 

These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest.

 

So far as I know, Gautama only speaks of his two teachers in the sermon "The (Noble) Quest" (Woodward gave "The Aryan Quest" but more recent translators believe the meaning could be construed as "noble").  He says:

 

... after a time (I), being young, my hair coal-black, possessed of radiant youth, in the prime of my life--although my unwilling parents wept and wailed--having cut my hair and beard, put on yellow robes, went forth from the home into homelessness. I, being gone forth for the incomparable, matchless path to peace, approached Alara the Kalama...

 

Then follows the story of his mastery of what Alara the Kalama taught (the futher state of the infinity of no-thing), of Alara's request of him to stay and help teach, and of Gautama's dissatisfaction and departure.  That's repeated for his second teacher, Uddaka, Rama's son (who taught the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception).  Then Gautama said:

 

Then I, ... a quester for whatever is good, searching for the incomparable, matchless course to peace, walking on tour through Magadha in due course arrived at Uruvela, the camp township.  There I saw a delightful stretch of land and a lovely woodland grove, and a clear flowing river with a delightful ford, and a village for support nearby.

 

He speaks of attaining nibbana, of the difficulty he expected in teaching the dhamma, of the appearance of Brahma Sahampati who appealed to him to teach, and of his decision to do so.  He thought first to return to his two teachers, but realized they had both passed away.   Then:

 

I saw with deva-vision, purified and surpassing that of men, the group of five monks staying near Benares at Isipatana in the deer-park.

 

After awhile, he proceeded there, and they gave him a hard time but eventually decided to give it a whirl.  He taught them the concentrations from the first four through the final "cessation of feeling and perceiving".  There's no mention in the sermon of any insight training.

 

The years he spent as an ascetic are mentioned elsewhere, but not here.  That must have been between his home-leaving and his study with Alara, but he doesn't mention those years in this sermon, the only sermon where he talks about Alara and Uddaka (so far as I know).

 

I would say Leigh is pulling rabbits out of his hat, with his history and his notion of the relationship between the concentrations and insight.  He is in good company, most of Theravadin Asia appears to have accepted the notion that concentration and insight come separately.  I don't find it so, in the first four Nikayas--insight is a byproduct of concentration. 

 

The principal difficulty in explaining the concentrations is "one-pointedness of mind".  That's a universal of concentration according to Gautama, and it has to be experienced.  You've read Koun Franz's offering on the subject in my writings before:

 

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’.

The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one.

 

( “No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/)

 

And in my writing:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

Edited June 1 by Mark Foote

[snowymountains]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Let me take one last stab at this:

 

Meditation creates the space for trauma to come up. It isn't intended to DIG it up, or force anything, but operates under the principle that living life itself is enough to create situations that surface trauma and undealt with situations, thoughts and feelings. 

 

Mindfulness (Sati) changes our relationship to the world. Properly developed (with both some morality training and bodhicitta practices)  mindfulness gives us a pause in our reactivity and changes how we relate to difficult situations as they arise, thus reducing the load of new karma we are creating. By having less clinging and aversion to what life throws up we create less future karma to untwist. Meditation, when all techniques are dropped, is, in essence the SAME as enlightened mind, though we don't have the insight to see it. The benefits of resting the mind in its own nature are the same, but at a much milder level, as just BEING enlightened Mind. 

 

When putting together a puzzle one often creates little subgroups of assembled pieces that seem to go in a particular area. We know as we are doing this that all of these subgroups comprise a whole defined by the border, but can only speculate about what whole might actually look like (leaving aside the picture on the box lid for the moment). But, how would the puzzle be if we suddenly knew how the whole actually was, intimately? This is a decent metaphor to represent our work on the path. 

 

I have personally found great value in working to take apart my "core wounds" using the path of therapy, but that was only ever putting together some of the puzzle pieces into little assembled groups. Illuminating little corners of the larger picture. This isn't to say that doing so wasn't cumulatively valuable! 

 

Insight/awakening/stream-entry is a moment where suddenly the whole puzzle becomes visible. One realizes that the puzzle was never ultimately these small groups but was in fact always the "big picture". Now with the ability to see the "big picture", wounds can be seen to belong to an imaginary self, not the larger awareness we have always been. Over time, life continues to throw up situations that might have created drama in the past, but now it is obvious how our past karma created suffering out of these experience for us and we are liberated from having to act from our previous patterns. We realize that the person with thought we were, with all of their attachments, aversions and karma was never truly real, and that our relationship to worldly situations was born of a misunderstanding about the nature of reality. 

 

It's missing out on a lot of things, omission is not limited to trauma, but don't have time to expand.

The tldr version is that overall they're good practices but also incomplete as a set of knowledge on many aspects and wrong on other aspects.

Edited June 1 by snowymountains

[liminal_luke]

33 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's missing out on a lot of things, omission is not limited to trauma, but don't have time to expand.

The tldr version is that overall they're good practices but also incomplete as a set of knowledge on many aspects and wrong on other aspects.

 

I often feel frustrated with my inability to write posts that move others to change their opinions.  But maybe I shouldn´t be so hard on myself.  It´s not as though my views are especially misguided or my writing especially unpersuasive.  It´s more like a natural law, like gravity: people will not change entrenched opinions because of what they read on the internet.  Even enlightened folks can´t change others.

Edited June 1 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

43 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

That stage exists in all traditions, it's still not sufficient.

It's good to have 24/7 sati, but it still won't register some things and even if it did it doesn't address to a satisfactory degree what to do with it.

How much meditation practice experience do you have, may I ask.

 

Also I don’t remember mentioning a 24/7 Sati so why do you assume that is what I am talking about?

[silent thunder]

Expert Syndrome in effect.

[doc benway]

I don't do too much quoting but here is one that I think is apropos from the very dear departed Anthony Demello:

 

Waking up is unpleasant, you know. You are nice and comfortable in bed. It is irritating to be woken up. That’s the reason the wise guru will not attempt to wake people up.

I hope I’m going to be wise here and make no attempt whatsoever to wake you up if you are asleep. It is really none of my business, even though I say to you at times, “Wake up!” My business is to do my thing, to dance my dance.

If you profit from it, fine; if you don’t, too bad!

As the Arabs say, “The nature of rain is the same, but it makes thorns grow in the marshes and flowers in the gardens.

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I often feel frustrated with my inability to write posts that move others to change their opinions.  But maybe I shouldn´t be so hard on myself.  It´s not as though my views are especially misguided or my writing especially unpersuasive.  It´s more like a natural law, like gravity: people will not change entrenched opinions because of what they read on the internet.  Even enlightened folks can´t change others.

 

It's not about changing opinions but tbh that's a long post that's low on my priorities atm. People will read what they read and do they do, a post will not change anyone, only possible agent of deciding in favour of change is the person itself.

Edited June 1 by snowymountains

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I often feel frustrated with my inability to write posts that move others to change their opinions.  But maybe I shouldn´t be so hard on myself.  It´s not as though my views are especially misguided or my writing especially unpersuasive.  It´s more like a natural law, like gravity: people will not change entrenched opinions because of what they read on the internet.  Even enlightened folks can´t change others.

 

Well, no one will change their mind in the moment, for sure. But you never know if something you write touches some one else, maybe even people who aren't posting, or even the person you're addressing months or years later. We don't always see the fruits of our actions, but this doesn't mean they don't flow and blossom in some way beyond the scope of our immediate awareness. 

 

Also, it is a self-benefitting process. I enjoy getting into online debates because I like thinking through the issues, combing through books and websites, and go on a little adventure of my own. These little meanderings lead in interesting directions beyond any online clash of opinions. 

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

How much meditation practice experience do you have, may I ask.

 

Also I don’t remember mentioning a 24/7 Sati so why do you assume that is what I am talking about?

 

Why do you want to grade me 😁?

 

No meditation tradition can change a fair amount of stuff because simply it takes a different process and also more than one person to change them.

It's no accident that meditation is often classed as avoidance for doing the actual work on ourselves. It doesn't need to be avoidance, because it's a good tool, but all too often it often is.

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Well, no one will change their mind in the moment, for sure. But you never know if something you write touches some one else, maybe even people who aren't posting, or even the person you're addressing months or years later. We don't always see the fruits of our actions, but this doesn't mean they don't flow and blossom in some way beyond the scope of our immediate awareness. 

 

Also, it is a self-benefitting process. I enjoy getting into online debates because I like thinking through the issues, combing through books and websites, and go on a little adventure of my own. These little meanderings lead in interesting directions beyond any online clash of opinions. 

 

 

True but they may also need significant time to expand and then follow up etc.