In praise of ideas

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

just like to drop the whole idea business as a bit too difficult and 'problematic'

 

Or simply because the ice cream is more relevant to their lives.

[liminal_luke]

... 

Edited June 7 by liminal_luke

[Ajay0]

On 6/5/2024 at 4:54 AM, Apech said:

There is far too much on this forum about the ‘non-conceptual’ , as if that were a thing anyway.  I am here to sing the praises of concepts and ideas.

 

In heaven there are stars and in our minds there are ideas.  Shining with their own particular light.  Every word we speak - every sentence is a string of interlocking stars.  If the light is coherent we may find truth in them.  If the light is discordant we might find lies.

 

Ideas are eternal, they are the substance of our thoughts and understanding. They feed our dreams, our aspirations and inform our endeavors.  Without ideas we have no life worthy of the name.  Like angels they bring messages from beyond the mundane.  
 

Let us be blessed with ideas,  may we have dreams and let the coherent light of truth be our pathway.

 

 

 

Productive and harmless Ideas and even decisions arise from inspiration and intuition, and it is the non-conceptual that enables access to this universal intelligence.
 

Quote

 

“A work of art always arises from the background: Consciousness. Be it music,painting, architecture, poetry or sculpture, It is always seen by the artist in an instant, like a flash of lightening, as it surges forth from deep within him.” – Jean Klein

Creativity is an inherent expression of consciousness and it can be expressed when the mind is free from stress and negativity. ~ Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

 

“All true artists, whether they know it or not, create from a place of no-mind, from inner stillness.” ~ Eckhart Tolle

 

 

Without the intuitive background of the non-conceptual behind,  the chances of the ego taking over and bringing about ideas and concepts of a harmful nature in the long run is high. 

 

Edited June 7 by Ajay0

[snowymountains]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I thought we agreed for a moment but then I realised we don't.  But at least we share a respect for ideas.

 

 

 

Does it matter if we agree?

 

I believe we agree that cognition and ideas are super important.

I also believe that 99.9% of what is written in the internet and elsewhere about "non-conceptual" is nonsensical mumbo jumbo.

 

That said, we're not only about cognition, our lived experience is more complex and there is a risk in casting every experience in a rigorous intellectual framework. The risk is that the intellectual framework will be an approximation of the experience and will lead us to miss parts of the experience.

 

The intellectual framework may well be a religious cosmology btw, not necessarily a scientific one. In fact much of the talks in defence of non-conceptual ironically do does use an intellectual framework, it's just a religious cosmology one, instead of a scientific one - which I find quite ironical.

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

It's not as easy to pull off if you're not a 5-year-old.  Adults are saddled with left brain derived expectations and obligations -- which more often than not are also someone else's idea of how we are supposed to behave in this or that situation.  But give it a try. 

 

Hmmmm ... this seems to be one of my 'problems'  , a few have observed that " You give importance and particularity to things that are unimportant , yet seem not to care about a whole lot of stuff that others think is important .

 

When my son was 5, if I told him "no" in response to this or that request, he would think hard and try to negotiate, but instead of offering good behavior or whatever more ingenuous children use as bargaining chips, he would light up as though he just had a brilliant idea, and offer to oink for me.  The idea was that he can imitate a little pig so well that I won't be able to deny him anything.  Half the time it worked, even though oinking was always irrelevant.  

 

Thanks I shall take that on board and next time I  choose ice cream over explanation I shall eat it while oinking .

 

- I remember little Coco at around 5 insisting that when she grew up she wanted to be a dog . Which apparently needed a lot of practice  beforehand .   I used to give her milk in a bowl on the floor . her father would be ; " Stop encouraging her ! "

 

(by the way, she didnt grow up to be a dog after all )

 

Edited June 7 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?

 

- Liber Librae .

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

16. To obtain Magical Power, learn to control thought; admit only those ideas that are in harmony with the end desired, and not every stray and contradictory Idea that presents itself.

17. Fixed thought is a means to an end. Therefore pay attention to the power of silent thought and meditation. The material act is but the outward expression of thy thought, and therefore hath it been said that “the thought of foolishness is sin.” Thought is the commencement of action, and if a chance thought can produce much effect, what cannot fixed thought do?

 

- Liber Librae .

 

I remember the story about a young Japanese soldier who was decorated posthumously with the country's highest military award and made famous in the land as a great hero.  What did he do?  Well, absolutely nothing.  A bullet found him and he died in the very first battle he participated in, before he could fire a single shot.  Yes but afterwards his comrades found his diary, full of patriotic declarations and dreams of great heroic deeds.  He intended to be a fearless, invincible, formidable warrior for the emperor and the country.  And even though none of it materialized and reality turned out to be removed very far from his idea of what the war was going to be like for him, the diary was presented to the commander and then to someone higher in command and so on, and everybody deemed the boy a great national hero based on his thoughts and intentions alone.  The general consensus was that the thought counts as much as the deed -- provided it is sincere, which it apparently was since it was entrusted in private to the personal diary.  

 

Wasn't enough to win that war though.  (Thank god for that.)  

[silent thunder]

Another potent share Taomeow.  The world within and the world without..

 

The world we live in, as compared to the world we think, that we live in only in our perceived rendition of the world that we live in...

 

Which one is more real i often wonder...

 

edit to add:  I'm reminded of an axiom that has resonated with me since childhood, it was attributed to The Druids in the context in which I first encountered it.  No idea of the actual origins.

 

A man is always three aspects.

 

He is who he thinks he is.

He is who others see him as.

And He is who he is.

Edited June 8 by silent thunder

[doc benway]

A pith instruction from the late, great Charles Bukowski,

"Can you remember who you were, before the world told you who you should be?"

[doc benway]

On 6/6/2024 at 10:13 AM, Apech said:

In ancient China someone had the idea of mixing milk solids and ice with sugar, Marco Polo saw this and brought the idea back to Europe where someone thought of the idea of placing the substance in a cone made of wafer biscuit.

 

Are you certain of this?

Is it possible that some ice fell into a mixing bowl filled with milk solids and sugar and the result was noted and appreciated?

We like to give credit to ideas as it reinforces our sense of self and importance, and no doubt ideas can be both magnificent and horrific. 

In reality the thoughts and the ideas are so often an echo of experience, a rationalization of accident, our inner voices narrating after the fact.

Nothing shows us how we create our reality more than the "reality" of ideas.

[old3bob]

recorded at age of ten !!

 

 

[liminal_luke]

36 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Are you certain of this?

Is it possible that some ice fell into a mixing bowl filled with milk solids and sugar and the result was noted and appreciated?

We like to give credit to ideas as it reinforces our sense of self and importance, and no doubt ideas can be both magnificent and horrific. 

In reality the thoughts and the ideas are so often an echo of experience, a rationalization of accident, our inner voices narrating after the fact.

 

 

My mom sometimes paints abstracts.  She talks about "happy accidents," unplanned but beautiful happenings on the canvas.  Maybe the skill is to recognize when a happy accident has occured and capitalize on it.

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

My mom sometimes paints abstracts.  She talks about "happy accidents," unplanned but beautiful happenings on the canvas.  Maybe the skill is to recognize when a happy accident has occured and capitalize on it.

 

righto, I read somewhere that LED light technology was some kind of or partial accident discovered by techs which is  now saving tons of electrical energy!   Same with the convenience of sticky notes and labels, and probably a hundred+ other things we often take for granted.

 

Edited June 8 by old3bob

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

My mom sometimes paints abstracts.  She talks about "happy accidents," unplanned but beautiful happenings on the canvas.  Maybe the skill is to recognize when a happy accident has occured and capitalize on it.

 

Leonardo da Vinci reportedly advised apprentice artists to look at blank stucco or stone walls, uneven floors, etc., and pay attention to the images that the eye inadvertently seems to discern (or create?..  or what a taoist would call "co-create?..") in the random lines, cracks and spots.  Faces, figures, landscapes, whole scenes might appear -- and the apprentice is advised to focus on them and try to draw them.  Apparently he considered this happy accident plus imagination plus pattern recognition (plus a lack of hubris, a prerequisite to taking these "co-created" things seriously, or maybe not taking oneself too seriously) a good artistic tool, a method to utilize when honing one's skill. 

 

There's also a famous Russian poem (by Anna Akhmatova) that begins, "If only you knew what trash poems grow out of shamelessly, like a dandelion by the fence, like thistle and ragweed..."      

 

    

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I remember the story about a young Japanese soldier who was decorated posthumously with the country's highest military award and made famous in the land as a great hero.  What did he do?  Well, absolutely nothing.  A bullet found him and he died in the very first battle he participated in, before he could fire a single shot.  Yes but afterwards his comrades found his diary, full of patriotic declarations and dreams of great heroic deeds.  He intended to be a fearless, invincible, formidable warrior for the emperor and the country.  And even though none of it materialized and reality turned out to be removed very far from his idea of what the war was going to be like for him, the diary was presented to the commander and then to someone higher in command and so on, and everybody deemed the boy a great national hero based on his thoughts and intentions alone.  The general consensus was that the thought counts as much as the deed -- provided it is sincere, which it apparently was since it was entrusted in private to the personal diary.  

 

Wasn't enough to win that war though.  (Thank god for that.)  

 

Damn  'outside world'  interfering with our  thoughts and dreams of whats going to happen ! 

 

Conversely , an Aussie soldier in  WWII  , shot down over PNG , bailed out   and parachuted down , but unfortunately , not only landed in a Jap camp, but crashed through the mess tent roof and landed on the table in the middle of lunch time !  Talk about bad timing ! He then got engaged in hand to hand  combat  and actually managed to escape .  But was found later , dead from the injuries he received during that fight .

 

Yet he is virtually unknown .

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, steve said:

A pith instruction from the late, great Charles Bukowski,

"Can you remember who you were, before the world told you who you should be?"

 

Me , at work, to a well known actor ;

 

" You have done so many different roles , and at work, I often see you still emerged in that role off set .  Do you ever get confused or lost regarding your own real personality ?  And further ....  what IS your own 'real' self and personality , not that stuff thats been put on you ... and further, doers it matter ?  I mean why should a taken on role or personality be more or less valid than any supposed original one ?   ... and further  ....   "

 

Answer :    "          ....    all I wanted was a cigarette  ....   "

 

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, steve said:

 

Are you certain of this?

Is it possible that some ice fell into a mixing bowl filled with milk solids and sugar and the result was noted and appreciated?

We like to give credit to ideas as it reinforces our sense of self and importance, and no doubt ideas can be both magnificent and horrific. 

In reality the thoughts and the ideas are so often an echo of experience, a rationalization of accident, our inner voices narrating after the fact.

Nothing shows us how we create our reality more than the "reality" of ideas.

 

Are you certain of that ?

 

History says it was the Persians .... they made ice very early on ... in the desert !   Then they began flavoring it  ..... mmmmmm - 'slushie' . Then some bright spark in India came up with the idea of adding cream while it freezes .

 

 

 

In praise of ideas !

 

Without this one .... no ice cream   

 

.

Edited June 8 by Nungali

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

righto, I read somewhere that LED light technology was some kind of or partial accident discovered by techs which is  now saving tons of electrical energy!   Same with the convenience of sticky notes and labels, and probably a hundred+ other things we often take for granted.

 

 

Partial accident   +    idea  = new technology .

 

person observes  flint rock falling onto another rock and sees a spark ....  IDEA !  'If  I  hit that rock with the other rock I can make a spark .'

 

 

[Apech]

There's a couple of themes that I want to consider here.  I know everyone has their own, to a certain extent entrenched opinions about ideas but I think it is worth just suspending all preconceptions and looking again at what exactly we mean by ideas, thoughts, perceptions and so on.

 

There's a very simplistic view of perceptions - like the image of a pin hole camera - where some kind of input comes in, is processed by the sense organ (eg. the eye) and then sent to the brain via the optic nerve to produce a pattern in the cerebellum (or some part of the brain) whereon the brain 'recognises' the object, a candle a tree or whatever ...and this is what is happening in every moment when we look around.  So perceptions are nothing but electrical sparkings in the brain and so on.  This model quickly breaks down in real life.  For instance if we were playing tennis and someone serves the ball at 100 miles an hour and we instinctively react and move to return the ball in a time scale which could not possibly be accounted for in simple perception models.  Something else is happening.

 

The there are thoughts.  A bland terms for a variety of types of events.  For instance most of us (with exceptions) have an internal dialogue, a stream of often unsummoned thoughts like a background chatter in our mind about this, that and the other.  We might even train in meditation to switch this off.  We call these thoughts.  But we also have consciously voiced thoughts where we for instance try to solve a problem.  We run through mentally and deliberately the possible solutions.  Beyond this we have visual thoughts.  If some one says apple most of us see an apple in our minds.  Some do not it is said - but I think most people do.  And this is also called a thought - but is it the same as our internal dialogue.  Sometimes in reverie, daydreaming or actual sleep we might experience a stream of images which are also mental events and thus thoughts.  Are they the same thing as our normal waking thoughts?

 

Then we have emotions, we might feel anger or joy, which is also an event in our minds - is this the same as out other thoughts?

 

So do we have an adequate vocabulary to deal with all our mental activity?  Probably not.

 

Then we come to ideas themselves.  Are ideas the same as thoughts or perceptions?  And whence do they come?

 

How do we position ourselves in relation to ideas?

 

 

[Cobie]

32 minutes ago, Nungali said:

… Answer :    "          ....    all I wanted was a cigarette  ....   "

Surely that was Keanu Reeves. 
 

 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

There's a very simplistic view of perceptions - like the image of a pin hole camera - where some kind of input comes in, is processed by the sense organ (eg. the eye) and then sent to the brain via the optic nerve to produce a pattern in the cerebellum (or some part of the brain) whereon the brain 'recognises' the object, a candle a tree or whatever ...and this is what is happening in every moment when we look around.  So perceptions are nothing but electrical sparkings in the brain and so on.  This model quickly breaks down in real life.  For instance if we were playing tennis and someone serves the ball at 100 miles an hour and we instinctively react and move to return the ball in a time scale which could not possibly be accounted for in simple perception models.  Something else is happening.

 

Speaking of tennis.  Once upon a time I went to a birthday party accompanied by someone who was good at tennis.  At some point the hostess brought in the cake but got momentarily distracted by the conversation at the table, joined in and forgot, just for a second, that she was holding a very delicate cake.  It was positioned on a flat plate and the distraction led to the plate in her hands tilting sideways and the cake abruptly slid down off it. 

 

It never hit the floor though.  Before anyone -- including the hostess -- had a chance to realize what was happening, the tennis guy, who was sitting with his back to the hostess and was completely unaware on any "ordinary"* level that the cake was in the process of falling behind the back of his chair, swerved around and extended an open palm an inch above the floor.  The cake landed in his palm, completely intact. 

 

He had absolutely no idea what he was doing and why, had to nearly dislocate his shoulder to suddenly assume the only position that could save the cake, and all of it took far less time than it would take the brain to get the input from the eyes (to say nothing of there being no eyes on the back of the guy's head), assess the situation and then issue the appropriate commands to the muscles.  The tennis guy didn't have the foggiest how he managed to do it but attributed it to tennis.   

 

*I attribute it to some antics of the "nonordinary reality."   

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Speaking of tennis.  Once upon a time I went to a birthday party accompanied by someone who was good at tennis.  At some point the hostess brought in the cake but got momentarily distracted by the conversation at the table, joined in and forgot, just for a second, that she was holding a very delicate cake.  It was positioned on a flat plate and the distraction led to the plate in her hands tilting sideways and the cake abruptly slid down off it. 

 

It never hit the floor though.  Before anyone -- including the hostess -- had a chance to realize what was happening, the tennis guy, who was sitting with his back to the hostess and was completely unaware on any "ordinary"* level that the cake was in the process of falling behind the back of his chair, swerved around and extended an open palm an inch above the floor.  The cake landed in his palm, completely intact. 

 

He had absolutely no idea what he was doing and why, had to nearly dislocate his shoulder to suddenly assume the only position that could save the cake, and all of it took far less time than it would take the brain to get the input from the eyes (to say nothing of there being no eyes on the back of the guy's head), assess the situation and then issue the appropriate commands to the muscles.  The tennis guy didn't have the foggiest how he managed to do it but attributed it to tennis.   

 

*I attribute it to some antics of the "nonordinary reality."   

 

could be some muscle memory kicking in that is fast...

[S:C]

21 hours ago, Apech said:

Then we come to ideas themselves.  Are ideas the same as thoughts or perceptions?  And whence do they come?

Abstracted thoughts or perceptions, - my guess.

 

I feel the need to explain this further after Apech confused look, but haven’t got the right words now.

Edited June 9 by S:C

[Taomeow]

32 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

could be some muscle memory kicking in that is fast...

 

Could be if he saw the cake fall, but the thing is, he didn't.  Something knew, but it wasn't his eyes, his brain, or his muscles.  The only "ordinary" explanation might be that he sensed the movement of air with the back of his head (the body part not isolated from the event by the back of his chair).  A bit of a stretch, but even assuming this explanation, he had no muscle memory of catching cakes he's not aware of that are falling behind his back, it was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence.  

 

People occasionally report inexplicable things of this nature that happen in various situations where their very lives could only be saved by this combo of instant premonition and instant action.  Due to the spread of surveillance cameras in the streets there's even videos of such incidents.  When asked about how they knew, these folks report all kinds of things they subjectively perceived in the moment -- e.g. time abruptly slowing down, gravity getting weak and mitigating a fall, something that feels like an invisible hand pushing them out of the way, or suddenly "just knowing" and so on.  And if the episode I described didn't happen in front of my own eyes, I would probably doubt that the same mysterious forces can be put in motion toward saving a cake.   

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Could be if he saw the cake fall, but the thing is, he didn't.  Something knew, but it wasn't his eyes, his brain, or his muscles.  The only "ordinary" explanation might be that he sensed the movement of air with the back of his head (the body part not isolated from the event by the back of his chair).  A bit of a stretch, but even assuming this explanation, he had no muscle memory of catching cakes he's not aware of that are falling behind his back, it was a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence. 

i refer to this sense 'Spherical Awareness'.  It implies a sense of awareness of surroundings in a sphere that encompasses and extends well beyond the body in all directions.

i first encountered it consciously while trying to climb down a cliff face i had climbed up without ropes or gear and it was vertical.  There was no option for me to look where my feet needed to plant below me in order to gain stability to progress downward without falling.

 

Later in life i was introduced to it in 3rd Dan trials/tests in martial arts... being able to sense a person's intentions toward you and behind you when they occupy a spot beyond sightlines.