The sickly self-obsessed modern man

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

To me, it feels like people (myself included) has become radically more self focused in the past few decades/centuries. Maybe in the west especially. Do you share this notion? How did it come about, and how can we return to a more outwards looking world view? 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

My guess would be capitalism: it makes money of supreme value, encourages competition, provides you with intentionally addicting tech and bombards you with marketing. And yeah, the death of god and a materalistic world view.

Edited June 6 by NaturaNaturans

[snowymountains]

9 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

To me, it feels like people (myself included) has become radically more self focused in the past few decades/centuries. Maybe in the west especially. Do you share this notion? How did it come about, and how can we return to a more outwards looking world view? 

 

It's true, to some extent it's been measured too

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

My guess would be capitalism: it makes money of supreme value, encourages competition, provides you with intentionally addicting tech and bombards you with marketing. And yeah, the death of god and a materalistic world view.

 

I agree, though this has not been measured 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

To me, it feels like people (myself included) has become radically more self focused in the past few decades/centuries. Maybe in the west especially. Do you share this notion? How did it come about, and how can we return to a more outwards looking world view? 

 

I DO share this notion .  Try spending some time with a tribe , you will immediately notice the difference .  They often have an overall 'nurturing and protecting' of each other ,  perhaps remnants of Aeon of Isis ?

 

How did it come about ?   Maybe started with agriculture and strangely enough 'large settlements' .  The industrial revolution was a huge nail in the coffin .

 

Then the great wheel turned , the stars revolved , the Aeon of Osiris - the ruling father shifter to the Aeon of Horus - where the old systems where broken down .

 

return ?  There is no return , you cant wind back the clock .

 

However the next aeon in the cycle promised to deliver some balanced  feminine energy  - the Aeon of Ma'at . 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

My guess would be capitalism: it makes money of supreme value, encourages competition, provides you with intentionally addicting tech and bombards you with marketing. And yeah, the death of god and a materalistic world view.

 

Yes, that, and its horrific cousin -  economic 'rationalism'  ! 

[Sanity Check]

 

Darwin's theory of evolution & capitalism being near to the same thing.

 

I would question whether its possible to be a true supporter of evolution science while bashing capitalism.

 

If evolution is defined in terms of millions of years of competition between organisms.

 

Can we propose to transform that observed precedent into another system or reduced or controlled competition?

 

If millions of years of competition is our origins story, then we might assume we will all be forced to compete at some point.

 

Which may mean the logical approach is to focus on developing ourselves & those around us to better compete.

 

Rather than expend time and energy attempting to make others less competitive.

 

As it may be impossible to devise a system which bucks the evolutionary trend of competition between organisms as a prime directive.

 

To eliminate competition between businesses and organisms, might require eliminating evolution itself.

 

Those who bash capitalism and seek its end may be waging a war against evolution and its mandates of competition between living things.

 

Which may be an interesting prospect to think about.

 

 

 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, Sanity Check said:

 

Darwin's theory of evolution & capitalism being near to the same thing.

 

I would question whether its possible to be a true supporter of evolution science while bashing capitalism.

 

If evolution is defined in terms of millions of years of competition between organisms.

 

Can we propose to transform that observed precedent into another system or reduced or controlled competition?

 

If millions of years of competition is our origins story, then we might assume we will all be forced to compete at some point.

 

Which may mean the logical approach is to focus on developing ourselves & those around us to better compete.

 

Rather than expend time and energy attempting to make others less competitive.

 

As it may be impossible to devise a system which bucks the evolutionary trend of competition between organisms as a prime directive.

 

To eliminate competition between businesses and organisms, might require eliminating evolution itself.

 

Those who bash capitalism and seek its end may be waging a war against evolution and its mandates of competition between living things.

 

Which may be an interesting prospect to think about.

 

 

 

In terms of evolution I think it is the opposite.  When survival pressures are high people form supportive groups but when as now life is soft and over protective people become more self centred and divorced from reality.

[Paradoxal]

On 6/6/2024 at 6:50 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

has become radically more self focused in the past few decades/centuries. Maybe in the west especially

Within the last two thousand years, the West has repeatedly proven itself to be 'self-focused,' so I would argue that this is nothing new. However, what is new is the visibility and influence of the self-centered western European culture on the rest of the world. While colonialism and empire have been a thing for many centuries, even in the East, with the shortening of distances via improved technology (20 hour flight across the world now, which would have been a month-long journey even a century ago) and the development of communications technology, that self-centeredness is now on full display. 

 

There is also a trend of nations following American example recently, as can be seen by the spread of fashion and politics, to name only two examples. This is certainly not benign, as American 'ideals' are selfish to the extreme; the very nature of pushing individual 'freedom' to its limits is the destruction of the group. I would argue that when it comes to capitalism, it doesn't have to be self-centered, but American capitalism is; thus, because of America's current influence on world trends, capitalism becomes self-centered in its implementation. 

 

Of course, there are other factors at play here too (as Globalization is a huge field of study for a reason!), but if you examine the recent trends, I would say that a lot of it is American export. 

[johndoe2012]

The funny thing is when I went to China they seemed more extreme capitalists than when I went to the US. 

 

 

[silent thunder]

Capitalism: that naive notion that the greediest of people with entirely selfish motives, left unregulated and no oversight will somehow work to the benefit of all...

 

'Murican capitalism isn't just self centered, it's financially predatory.

 

A bit of research into health care and education reveals this.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

On 7.6.2024 at 2:52 AM, Sanity Check said:

 

Darwin's theory of evolution & capitalism being near to the same thing.

 

I would question whether its possible to be a true supporter of evolution science while bashing capitalism.

 

If evolution is defined in terms of millions of years of competition between organisms.

 

Can we propose to transform that observed precedent into another system or reduced or controlled competition?

 

If millions of years of competition is our origins story, then we might assume we will all be forced to compete at some point.

 

Which may mean the logical approach is to focus on developing ourselves & those around us to better compete.

 

Rather than expend time and energy attempting to make others less competitive.

 

As it may be impossible to devise a system which bucks the evolutionary trend of competition between organisms as a prime directive.

 

To eliminate competition between businesses and organisms, might require eliminating evolution itself.

 

Those who bash capitalism and seek its end may be waging a war against evolution and its mandates of competition between living things.

 

Which may be an interesting prospect to think about.

 

 

 

How can you be against (or for) evolution? What would the opposite of natural selection be? Unnatural selection? What even is that?

@Nungali we cant turn back the clock, but we can take a look at the man in the mirror (HEE-HEE)

 

The aeons stuff, idk.

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

On 7.6.2024 at 8:07 PM, Paradoxal said:

Within the last two thousand years, the West has repeatedly proven itself to be 'self-focused,' so I would argue that this is nothing new

Idk, is european culture more individualistic than eastern? For sure. And yes, this have deep roots (notoins of herious, glory, individual sovereignity and so), however, to me this is not bad Nor self obsession. These traits are in a weird way altruisitc, towards the in group at least. Self-obsession, like in the myth of Narcissius for instance, I agree with @Nungali: a product of lagre settlements and escp the industrial revolution and capitalism?

 

Care to elaborate?

[Nungali]

On 6/13/2024 at 2:02 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

...

@Nungali we cant turn back the clock, but we can take a look at the man in the mirror (HEE-HEE)

 

The aeons stuff, idk.

 

 

Aeon of Isis ;    

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)

 

Aeon of Osiris ;

early

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations

 

middle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

 

late ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

 

Aeon of Horus;

 

Early ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

 

WW   I  & II

 

and , well , constant war ever since  ;

 

" Thou shalt have danger and trouble , Ra-Hoor-Khu is with thee . "

 

Middle;
 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Aeon of Isis ;    

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology)

 

Aeon of Osiris ;

early

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations

 

middle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

 

late ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

 

Aeon of Horus;

 

Early ;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

 

WW   I  & II

 

and , well , constant war ever since  ;

 

" Thou shalt have danger and trouble , Ra-Hoor-Khu is with thee . "

 

Middle;
 

 

 

Hmm… on Isis, I think «Old Europe» is kind of outdated. Sure, they had a unique culture, but the neolitic farmers was not shy for extreme hierachy and violence and patriarchy. You prob know this. Ive written a little on it at historium as well, so I can dig that ho for you If interrested.

 

wiki old Europe:

 

Quote

Marija Gimbutas studied the Neolithic period in order to understand cultural developments in settled village culture in the southern Balkans, which she characterized as peaceful, matristic, and possessing a goddess-centered religion.[7] In contrast, she characterizes the later Indo-European influences as warlike, nomadic, and patrilineal.[7] Using evidence from pottery and sculpture, and combining the tools of archaeology, comparative mythology, linguistics, and, most controversially, folkloristics, Gimbutas invented a new interdisciplinary field, archaeomythology.

Osiris

Early

well, yeah, I to belive it was bordering on genocidal. Here is an excerpt from an article that might interrest you:

 

Quote

The entire population living in what is now Denmark was replaced twice prehistorically by people arriving from outside Scandinavia. A major study now reveals how this turnover took place and what it means for how ethnic Danes now look, live their lives and what they eat.

https://sciencenews.dk/en/100-ancient-skeletons-reveal-dramatic-turnover-of-denmarks-population
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/stonehenge-neolithic-britain-history-ancestors-plague-archaeology-beaker-people-a8222341.html
 

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/10/03/inenglish/1538568010_930565.html?outputType=amp#
 

The combination of steppe pastorialists and horse riders seems to create a special breed, as seen many times and in many culture. All tho like all cultures, it comes with its good and bad.

 

Midle

well, Rome was not shy for violence. In a way they still seem very IE (glory, korios, honour, patrarchy, heroism, Pantheon…)

 

Late

I only know the basics of the revolusjon. Was it the end of Osiris?

 

Horus

“war that will end war,” which later morphed into “the war to end all wars»…

 

In one way it is true, as know we only do just millitary intervantion and violent peace keeping mission for the good of the human race :))

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

ChatGPT summary on aeons:

Quote

 

Aleister Crowley, an influential figure in the occult world, introduced the concept of Aeons in his works. According to Crowley, an Aeon is a large time period dominated by a particular spiritual paradigm. He identified three main Aeons in human spiritual history:

1. **The Aeon of Isis**: This is the first Aeon, characterized by matriarchy and the worship of the Great Mother. It represents a time when nature, fertility, and the goddess were the central focus of spirituality.

2. **The Aeon of Osiris**: This is the second Aeon, marked by patriarchy and the worship of the dying-and-rising god. It corresponds to a period dominated by the themes of sacrifice, death, and resurrection. This Aeon is linked to the religions that emphasize salvation and suffering, such as Christianity and other similar religions.

3. **The Aeon of Horus**: Crowley believed humanity had entered this third Aeon, marked by the rise of individualism, the breakdown of old religious structures, and the emergence of new spiritual understandings. Horus, the child god, symbolizes self-actualization, freedom, and the conscious realization of one's true will.

Crowley's Aeons are closely tied to his teachings in Thelema, a spiritual philosophy he founded, which emphasizes discovering and following one's True Will. The transition from one Aeon to another reflects shifts in human consciousness and spiritual evolution.

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Hmm… on Isis, I think «Old Europe» is kind of outdated. Sure, they had a unique culture, but the neolitic farmers was not shy for extreme hierachy and violence and patriarchy. You prob know this. Ive written a little on it at historium as well, so I can dig that ho for you If interrested.

 

wiki old Europe:

 

Your quote seems to support  what I said   'Aeon of Isis' - 'Old Europe'  ; " characterized as peaceful, matristic, and possessing a goddess-centered religion."

 

And the  'Aeon of Osiris' -  " she characterizes the later Indo-European influences as warlike, nomadic, and patrilineal"

 

 

 

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Osiris

Early

well, yeah, I to belive it was bordering on genocidal. Here is an excerpt from an article that might interrest you:

 

https://sciencenews.dk/en/100-ancient-skeletons-reveal-dramatic-turnover-of-denmarks-population
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/stonehenge-neolithic-britain-history-ancestors-plague-archaeology-beaker-people-a8222341.html
 

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/10/03/inenglish/1538568010_930565.html?outputType=amp#
 

The combination of steppe pastorialists and horse riders seems to create a special breed, as seen many times and in many culture. All tho like all cultures, it comes with its good and bad.

 

Horse riders ; that's my 'being able to quickly escape the consequences of your bad actions' theory on human nastiness .

 

 

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Midle

well, Rome was not shy for violence. In a way they still seem very IE (glory, korios, honour, patrarchy, heroism, Pantheon…)

 

Late

I only know the basics of the revolusjon. Was it the end of Osiris?

 

It signalled a different idea coming ; a state not ruled by 'Royal Blood and Religion ' .

 

 

 

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Horus

“war that will end war,” which later morphed into “the war to end all wars»…

 

In one way it is true, as know we only do just millitary intervantion and violent peace keeping mission for the good of the human race :))

 

 

 

Replace 'human' with 'arms'   and you got it .

 

The Aeon of Osiris is supposedly characterised by 'the Dying God' motif .  Jesus is the classic .

 

But who is the new classic / icon /  'Microcosmic Man ' ?   I read a good discourse on it being Faust ; he sold his soul , which he lost , to the Devil, for material greed, goods and pleasures . The writer saw 'The Devil' as  materialism     / scientism .

 

But then again, that's just Marlowe's ending , Goethe  has a different ending to Faust  ......  maybe we can choose ? 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

ChatGPT summary on aeons:

 

 

Seriously ?   You are going to cite chat GPT ?  ... whatever   .

 

It wasnt just Crowley  that thought   " The transition from one Aeon to another reflects shifts in human consciousness and spiritual evolution. "   Exopsychology does as well , and links them to shifts in  human social evolution .

 

A lot of Crowley isn't original , he is just writing about stuff in a new and different way ( for the times ) .

 

Ask your chat GPG , in relation to the answer it gave ;  " Are you sure about that ? "

[silent thunder]

Chat gpt.

When you can't be bothered to explore, read, or synthesize or think... you settle for plagiarized software regurgitation.

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

our quote seems to support  what I said   'Aeon of Isis' - 'Old Europe'  ; " characterized as peaceful, matristic, and possessing a goddess-centered religion."

 

And the  'Aeon of Osiris' -  " she characterizes the later Indo-European influences as warlike, nomadic, and patrilineal"

Thats write, that qoute was from the old Europe link and was not meant to illustrate my point. Imprecise communication on my part. Consider this however: 

 

Violence in neolithic Europe (before IE. invasion):

 

Spoiler

 

Discussions on interpersonal violence and conflict in Neolithic Europe have shifted from past assumptions on the generally peaceful nature of the period (e.g., refs. (1) and (2)) to a recognition of physical violence as a widespread feature that was not limited to one-off violent events (3–5).  

(...)

In norway, the number of violent deaths were 20% (read in a recent norwegian book)

 

 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2209481119

 

Kindred, patriarchal nobility in neolithic Europe:

 

Spoiler

SIGNIFICANCE

A new phenomenon of constructing distinctive funerary monuments, collectively known as megalithic tombs, emerged around 4500 BCE along the Atlantic façade. The megalithic phenomenon has attracted interest and speculation since medieval times. In particular, the origin, dispersal dynamics, and the role of these constructions within the societies that built them have been debated. We generate genome sequence data from 24 individuals buried in five megaliths and investigate the population history and social dynamics of the groups that buried their dead in megalithic monuments across northwestern Europe in the fourth millennium BCE. Our results show kin relations among the buried individuals and an overrepresentation of males, suggesting that at least some of these funerary monuments were used by patrilineal societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6511028/

 

Inbred god kings behind megalithic culture in Europe:

 

Spoiler

The nature and distribution of political power in Europe during the Neolithic era remains poorly understood1. During this period, many societies began to invest heavily in building monuments, which suggests an increase in social organization. The scale and sophistication of megalithic architecture along the Atlantic seaboard, culminating in the great passage tomb complexes, is particularly impressive2. Although co-operative ideology has often been emphasised as a driver of megalith construction1, the human expenditure required to erect the largest monuments has led some researchers to emphasize hierarchy3—of which the most extreme case is a small elite marshalling the labour of the masses. Here we present evidence that a social stratum of this type was established during the Neolithic period in Ireland. We sampled 44 whole genomes, among which we identify the adult son of a first-degree incestuous union from remains that were discovered within the most elaborate recess of the Newgrange passage tomb. Socially sanctioned matings of this nature are very rare, and are documented almost exclusively among politico-religious elites4—specifically within polygynous and patrilineal royal families that are headed by god-kings5,6. We identify relatives of this individual within two other major complexes of passage tombs 150 km to the west of Newgrange, as well as dietary differences and fine-scale haplotypic structure (which is unprecedented in resolution for a prehistoric population) between passage tomb samples and the larger dataset, which together imply hierarchy. This elite emerged against a backdrop of rapid maritime colonization that displaced a unique Mesolithic isolate population, although we also detected rare Irish hunter-gatherer introgression within the Neolithic population.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7116870/

 

The "genocide" of danish hunter gatherers:

 

Spoiler

Neolithic people with genetic ancestry from the Middle East replaced the original hunter-gatherer cultures throughout Europe, and genome analysis shows massive migration, which resulted in population mixing in some places and population turnover elsewhere.

Denmark underwent population turnover, but the DNA combined with the radiocarbon dating of the 100 skeletons reveals that the Neolithic immigration from the south happened 1,000 years later in Denmark. The hunter-gatherers in Denmark were therefore able to keep Neolithic people at bay for 1,000 years longer than in central Europe.

With the arrival of this new population from the south, its genetics eventually ended up lightening people’s skin, and once these migrants had established themselves in Denmark, the original hunter-gatherers were rapidly replaced, leaving only very minor genetic traces in the new population.

“Denmark may have had the most rapid transition from hunter-gatherers to the Neolithic Age in Europe. This was a dramatic transition with rapid turnover and involving far less genetic integration between the original population and the migrants than in southern Europe,”

https://sciencenews.dk/en/100-ancient-skeletons-reveal-dramatic-turnover-of-denmarks-population

 

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

The Aeon of Osiris is supposedly characterised by 'the Dying God' motif .  Jesus is the classic .

 

But who is the new classic / icon /  'Microcosmic Man ' ?   I read a good discourse on it being Faust ; he sold his soul , which he lost , to the Devil, for material greed, goods and pleasures . The writer saw 'The Devil' as  materialism     / scientism .

 

But then again, that's just Marlowe's ending , Goethe  has a different ending to Faust  ......  maybe we can choose ?

Beautifully written. Love the imagery and the Faust "choice" you provide : )

 

 

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Seriously ?   You are going to cite chat GPT ?  ... whatever   .

 

It wasnt just Crowley  that thought   " The transition from one Aeon to another reflects shifts in human consciousness and spiritual evolution. "   Exopsychology does as well , and links them to shifts in  human social evolution .

 

A lot of Crowley isn't original , he is just writing about stuff in a new and different way ( for the times ) .

 

Ask your chat GPG , in relation to the answer it gave ;  " Are you sure about that ? "

You know, I just finished school, and my god youd be shocked by how muched the software is used. They have even been credited in research publications... It is a brilliant tool, if you source it, fact check and rewrite it. I didnt do that, so for that, I take critisisim.  

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

But by all means, you are correct in that there was a shift in cosmology. Right know im reading this paper on bronze age religion: https://www.academia.edu/5698976/Religion_and_society_in_the_Bronze_Age

 

Here is an excerpt: 

Quote

HE NEW GODS OF THE BRONZE AGE AND THEIR ATTRIBUTES A small pantheon of early gods shares their names within the Indo-European languages and hence goes back to the Proto-Indo-European period (West 2007: ch. 4). Language thus testiies to the existence of a small pantheon of gods before and during the early period of expansion of Indo-European languages and social formations in the early third millennium bce. Presiding over them is the sky god with his club or rather hammer axe. his would correspond very well with the western expansion of Indo-European speaking societies during the early third millennium bce, where males are oten buried with an axe made of precious stone or copper. Figure 10.3 Relationship between material culture and oral/written culture. © Kristian Kristiansen.

not for reproduction or distribution RELIGION AND SOCIETY IN THE BRONZE AGE 83 Ater 2000 bce, texts from the Near East and India present the second and third gener- ations of gods, and among them the “Divine Twins” are the most interesting and important also from an archaeological point of view. heir archaeological history and their attributes will therefore be the focus of this contribution. hey persist until the end of the Bronze Age, when new gods mark their arrival in many Indo-European speaking societies, not least in central and northern Europe, in the form of the Æsir gods, which corresponds to the decline of the dominant Bronze Age gods. We ind no archaeological parallels to this change until the beginning of the Iron Age, when some rock art panels are carved over by a gigantic spear-holding igure, which could count as a proto-Odin, but otherwise the most likely arrival of this new layer of gods can be archaeologically identiied and dated to the ith and sixth centuries ce (Hedeager 2007). he main gods of the Bronze Age are the sun, its god and goddess, and their helpers: the Divine Twins. A myriad of rock art panels in Scandinavia and a thousand bronzes with solar symbolism attest to this (R. Bradley 2006; Kristiansen 2010). It is also clear from this archaeological evidence that the solar journey is a shared myth throughout Europe (Sprockhof 1954; Pasztor 2008; Vianello 2008), just as the twin symbolism linked to the helpers of the sun: the Divine Twins. here are most certainly other shared myths that can be identiied in archaeological iconography, but so far little work has been done in these areas of research (but see Kristiansen & Larsson 2005: ig. 152; Fredell 2006). Bronze Age texts and Bronze Age rock art are dominated by male gods, or rather their earthly representatives, the priest chiefs, mostly armed and with a huge phallus. In a quantitative study of gender in rock art in Østfold in Norway it could be demonstrated that non-phallic males rarely had weapons, while among the phallic males more than half carried a sword. Figures with horned helmets, lur blowers, and igures with bird masks, or rather eagle heads or masks, are always phallic (Skogstrand 2006: igs 16–20). he warrior ethos is strong, and is linked to an ideology of sexual strength and penetration, which is echoed in Indo-European texts as well.

Ill get back to you if  I stumble over something interresting (only read about 1/3), but so far I can reccomend it.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Thats write, that qoute was from the old Europe link and was not meant to illustrate my point. Imprecise communication on my part. Consider this however: 

 

Violence in neolithic Europe (before IE. invasion):

 

  Hide contents

 

Discussions on interpersonal violence and conflict in Neolithic Europe have shifted from past assumptions on the generally peaceful nature of the period (e.g., refs. (1) and (2)) to a recognition of physical violence as a widespread feature that was not limited to one-off violent events (3–5).  

(...)

In norway, the number of violent deaths were 20% (read in a recent norwegian book)

 

 

 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2209481119

 

Kindred, patriarchal nobility in neolithic Europe:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

SIGNIFICANCE

A new phenomenon of constructing distinctive funerary monuments, collectively known as megalithic tombs, emerged around 4500 BCE along the Atlantic façade. The megalithic phenomenon has attracted interest and speculation since medieval times. In particular, the origin, dispersal dynamics, and the role of these constructions within the societies that built them have been debated. We generate genome sequence data from 24 individuals buried in five megaliths and investigate the population history and social dynamics of the groups that buried their dead in megalithic monuments across northwestern Europe in the fourth millennium BCE. Our results show kin relations among the buried individuals and an overrepresentation of males, suggesting that at least some of these funerary monuments were used by patrilineal societies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6511028/

 

Inbred god kings behind megalithic culture in Europe:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The nature and distribution of political power in Europe during the Neolithic era remains poorly understood1. During this period, many societies began to invest heavily in building monuments, which suggests an increase in social organization. The scale and sophistication of megalithic architecture along the Atlantic seaboard, culminating in the great passage tomb complexes, is particularly impressive2. Although co-operative ideology has often been emphasised as a driver of megalith construction1, the human expenditure required to erect the largest monuments has led some researchers to emphasize hierarchy3—of which the most extreme case is a small elite marshalling the labour of the masses. Here we present evidence that a social stratum of this type was established during the Neolithic period in Ireland. We sampled 44 whole genomes, among which we identify the adult son of a first-degree incestuous union from remains that were discovered within the most elaborate recess of the Newgrange passage tomb. Socially sanctioned matings of this nature are very rare, and are documented almost exclusively among politico-religious elites4—specifically within polygynous and patrilineal royal families that are headed by god-kings5,6. We identify relatives of this individual within two other major complexes of passage tombs 150 km to the west of Newgrange, as well as dietary differences and fine-scale haplotypic structure (which is unprecedented in resolution for a prehistoric population) between passage tomb samples and the larger dataset, which together imply hierarchy. This elite emerged against a backdrop of rapid maritime colonization that displaced a unique Mesolithic isolate population, although we also detected rare Irish hunter-gatherer introgression within the Neolithic population.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7116870/

 

The "genocide" of danish hunter gatherers:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Neolithic people with genetic ancestry from the Middle East replaced the original hunter-gatherer cultures throughout Europe, and genome analysis shows massive migration, which resulted in population mixing in some places and population turnover elsewhere.

Denmark underwent population turnover, but the DNA combined with the radiocarbon dating of the 100 skeletons reveals that the Neolithic immigration from the south happened 1,000 years later in Denmark. The hunter-gatherers in Denmark were therefore able to keep Neolithic people at bay for 1,000 years longer than in central Europe.

With the arrival of this new population from the south, its genetics eventually ended up lightening people’s skin, and once these migrants had established themselves in Denmark, the original hunter-gatherers were rapidly replaced, leaving only very minor genetic traces in the new population.

“Denmark may have had the most rapid transition from hunter-gatherers to the Neolithic Age in Europe. This was a dramatic transition with rapid turnover and involving far less genetic integration between the original population and the migrants than in southern Europe,”

https://sciencenews.dk/en/100-ancient-skeletons-reveal-dramatic-turnover-of-denmarks-population

 

I realize the theory is highly criticized .  I suppose its a question of comparing dates .

 

A lot of it is confusing , like 'the burnt house horizon'  - thats weird ; evidence of a giant area where houses  and goods where burnt , seems to indicate such conflict ... yet some say and show evidence that they did it themselves .... repeatedly  and deliberately, burnt the whole lot down then rebuilt it , time and time again . 

 

 

" This was a widespread and long-lasting tradition in what are now Southeastern Europe and Eastern Europe, lasting from as early as 6500 BCE (the beginning of the Neolithic in that region) to as late as 2000 BCE (the end of the Chalcolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age).

 

Some historians claim that settlements were intentionally burned in a repeated cycle of construction and destruction.^[20] Serbian archeologist Mirjana Stevanovic writes: "it is unlikely that the houses were burned as a result of a series of accidents or for any structural and technological reasons but rather that they were destroyed by deliberate burning and most likely for reasons of a symbolic nature".^[4]

Some of the modern house-burning experiments include those done by Arthur Bankoff and Frederick Winter in 1977,^[21] Gary Shaffer in 1993,^[22] and Stevanovic in 1997.^[2][4] In their experiment, Bankoff and Winter constructed a model of a partially dilapidated Neolithic house, and then set it on fire in a way that would replicate how an accidental fire would have perhaps started from an untended cooking-hearth fire. They then allowed the fire to burn unchecked for over thirty hours. Although the fire rapidly spread to the thatched roof, destroying it in the process, in the end less than one percent of the clay in the walls was fired (turned into ceramic material), which is counter to the large amount of fired-clay wall rubble that is found in the Cucuteni-Trypillian settlement ruins. Additionally, the experimental burning left the walls almost entirely intact. It would have been relatively easy for the roof to have been repaired quickly, the ash cleared away, and the house reoccupied.^[21] These results are typical for all of the modern experiments that have been done to try to recreate these ancient house burnings.^[2] Stevanovic, an expert archeological ceramicist,^[23] describes how in order to produce the large amount of fired clay rubble found in the ruins, that enormous quantities of extra fuel would have had to be placed next to the walls to create enough heat to vitrify the clay.^{[4] "}

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned_house_horizon

 

Anyway ,   they are just ideas  , Crowley's where based on what was current at the time  and the sciences have moved on a long way from there .  I think the main point is we ARE in an age of individuality and conflict  and 'western civ' seems to have isolated the extended family unit  ... which is the basic stable base from primates  ... which we are .

 

 

 

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Beautifully written. Love the imagery and the Faust "choice" you provide : )

 

 

You know, I just finished school, and my god youd be shocked by how muched the software is used. They have even been credited in research publications... It is a brilliant tool, if you source it, fact check and rewrite it. I didnt do that, so for that, I take criticism.  

 

Okay , but still ... what happens if you ask it  " Are you sure about that "?

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

But by all means, you are correct in that there was a shift in cosmology. Right know im reading this paper on bronze age religion: https://www.academia.edu/5698976/Religion_and_society_in_the_Bronze_Age

 

Here is an excerpt: 

Ill get back to you if  I stumble over something interresting (only read about 1/3), but so far I can reccomend it.

 

 

HE NEW GODS OF THE BRONZE AGE AND THEIR ATTRIBUTES A small pantheon of early gods shares their names within the Indo-European languages and hence goes back to the Proto-Indo-European period (West 2007: ch. 4). Language thus testiies to the existence of a small pantheon of gods before and during the early period of expansion of Indo-European languages and social formations in the early third millennium bce. Presiding over them is the sky god with his club or rather hammer axe.

 

 

 

his would correspond very well with the western expansion of Indo-European speaking societies during the early third millennium bce, where males are oten buried with an axe made of precious stone or copper. Figure 10.3 Relationship between material culture and oral/written culture. © Kristian Kristiansen.

not for reproduction or distribution RELIGION AND SOCIETY IN THE BRONZE AGE 83 Ater 2000 bce, texts from the Near East and India present the second and third gener- ations of gods, and among them the “Divine Twins” are the most interesting and important also from an archaeological point of view.

 

-  Even right down to microcosm of the valley I live in ; " Two brothers , they go hunting and fishing, right up the end of the valley ..... " Often however it is three brothers ; the three that came here in a canoe to originally settle the land , all the way to the three brothers in a canoe in the sky :

 

heir archaeological history and their attributes will therefore be the focus of this contribution. hey persist until the end of the Bronze Age, when new gods mark their arrival in many Indo-European speaking societies, not least in central and northern Europe, in the form of the Æsir gods, which corresponds to the decline of the dominant Bronze Age gods.

 

Arrival of the 'new gods'  (and the following  development of a nationwide new revolution in society and relationships ) :

 

 

 

We ind no archaeological parallels to this change until the beginning of the Iron Age, when some rock art panels are carved over by a gigantic spear-holding igure, which could count as a proto-Odin, but otherwise the most likely arrival of this new layer of gods can be archaeologically identiied and dated to the ith and sixth centuries ce (Hedeager 2007)

 

 

 

 

. he main gods of the Bronze Age are the sun, its god and goddess, and their helpers: the Divine Twins. A myriad of rock art panels in Scandinavia and a thousand bronzes with solar symbolism attest to this (R. Bradley 2006; Kristiansen 2010). It is also clear from this archaeological evidence that the solar journey is a shared myth throughout Europe (Sprockhof 1954; Pasztor 2008; Vianello 2008), just as the twin symbolism linked to the helpers of the sun: the Divine Twins. here are most certainly other shared myths that can be identiied in archaeological iconography, but so far little work has been done in these areas of research (but see Kristiansen & Larsson 2005: ig. 152; Fredell 2006). Bronze Age texts and Bronze Age rock art are dominated by male gods, or rather their earthly representatives, the priest chiefs, mostly armed and with a huge phallus. In a quantitative study of gender in rock art in Østfold in Norway it could be demonstrated that non-phallic males rarely had weapons, while among the phallic males more than half carried a sword. Figures with horned helmets, lur blowers, and igures with bird masks, or rather eagle heads or masks, are always phallic (Skogstrand 2006: igs 16–20). he warrior ethos is strong, and is linked to an ideology of sexual strength and penetration, which is echoed in Indo-European texts as well.

 

As for  the 'new Gods'  (Christianity )   overtaking the 'Old Gods '   I like to refer to Swinburne :

 

 

Hymn to Proserpine (After the Proclamation in Rome of the Christian Faith)

" ........

For the Gods we know not of, who give us our daily breath,

We know they are cruel as love or life, and lovely as death.

O Gods dethroned and deceased, cast forth, wiped out in a day!

From your wrath is the world released, redeemed from your chains, men say.

New Gods are crowned in the city; their flowers have broken your rods;

They are merciful, clothed with pity, the young compassionate Gods.

But for me their new device is barren, the days are bare;

Things long past over suffice, and men forgotten that were.

.......  "

 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/45292/hymn-to-proserpine-after-the-proclamation-in-rome-of-the-christian-faith

Edited June 15 by Nungali

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Nungali

On old Europe: yeah, I get the aeons are symbolic and not literally based on old Europe. Allthough probally not as egalitarian, matriarchal and peacefull as previously told, they definitley seem more that compared to early IE.

 

On hierachy, I found this statement on the varna culture (modern day Bulgaria) enlightening:

 

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"Varna is the oldest cemetery yet found where humans were buried with abundant golden ornaments. … The weight and the number of gold finds in the Varna cemetery exceeds by several times the combined weight and number of all of the gold artifacts found in all excavated sites of the same millenium, 5000-4000 BC, from all over the world, including Mesopotamia and Egypt. … Three graves contained gold objects that together accounted for more than half of the total weight of all gold grave goods yielded by the cemetery. A scepter, symbol of a supreme secular or religious authority, was discovered in each of these three graves.

(Slavchev 2010)[10]

The burnt houses thing is intruiging, will take a deeper look one day.

@Nungali said:

 

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Anyway ,   they are just ideas  , Crowley's where based on what was current at the time  and the sciences have moved on a long way from there .  I think the main point is we ARE in an age of individuality and conflict  and 'western civ' seems to have isolated the extended family unit  ... which is the basic stable base from primates  ... which we are .

 100%

 

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Okay , but still ... what happens if you ask it  " Are you sure about that "?

It would reevaluate and either correct it self or give a more detailed explanation. I generally ask for sources, and with the + version it will search the internett a provide them for you. Some of them might be bs, but at least you got the oppurtunity to find Out If its true or not, fairly easily.

 

On your last post I am not sure I understood everything, but it was beautifull. The part and images following the divine twins and arrival of the new gods I very much liked. And the poem hit close to home. Harsh as the past was, I feel a little nostalgic about it, and belive a lot of their cultural aspects are admirable. Still tho, I would def not like to be on the reciving side
 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Nungali do you think the western mind underwent a drastic shift after ww2, going from «the white mans burden» and Europe being the gift to the world, universe and God himself, to people thinking: what is this mess? What is so great about this supposed superior culture that flattens entire city to the ground with one nuke?