.

[-_sometimes]

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Edited June 14 by -_sometimes

[Maddie]

9 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

I started therapy a few weeks ago, so that's a start. I went to Beth Upton's retreat last year and she recommended this therapist. Sessions will be ongoing as long as necessary. However in the meantime I feel absolutely awful, and it feels like it's been getting worse over time.

 

Meditation doesn't help, because the moment I try to focus internally, even if that's just on my breath, I get involuntary muscle twitches in my neck and face, that mean I simply cannot keep attention on the meditation object. I've tried letting the movements run their course, but they continue indefinitely, with no conclusion. This is particularIy troubling because meditation and finding peace and contentment through concentration might very well help, but I can't maintain attention on my breath for even 10 seconds before I have muscle twitches. I tried to start a neigong practice, but at the moment I don't have faith that results will come, given how unique my situation is - I want to wait till my life situation allows me to have a physical teacher to help instead of through online courses. 

Whenever I try to focus on studying, which is necessary to improve my life, I feel mentally heavy, chaotic and confused, as well as utterly exhausted - I zone out tremendously easy staring at a problem. I've seen a neurologist who found nothing abnormal, went to a TCM practitioner who it seems did not like me and tried to get me out after an acupuncture session as fast as possible lol

 

I have this crushing emotional pain in my chest much of the time, my experience feels crushing, the repetition mind-numbing and soul crushing. I am utterly socially isolated aside from work, as I feel overwhelmingly uncomfortable and fearful in casual social situations with people, as well as strong sense of apathy and numbness. You might say exposure therapy, but it's something deeper than a general anxiety - an overwhelming discomfort with myself deep in my unconscious seems about right. Everyone who knows me on a surface level finds that I am bright, intelligent, always in good spirits, with a good vibe, but that's only because I don't allow anyone to know me better beyond their initial impression.

 

When I went on my 10 day retreat last year, I had an assisted meditation experience that unlocked a lot of pain, where I cried for a long while, but that doesn't seem to have changed anything. I want to cut out stimulation in my life so I can focus on what I feel, but the mental anguish is so unbearable I find myself constantly using some form of stimulation to numb it.

 

I feel like there's no way out, aside perhaps from meeting a sage who can actually identify the cause of my suffering and provide a path out of it. I've tried eating well, going to the gym, sleeping well and they don't affect the deep overwhelming sense of mental pain I feel so often. Sometimes I go to the gym and feel so weak and mentally unwell I leave after a few sets. feel so stuck sometimes I panic at how things will never change.

 

I don't really have anything to ask, but I do wonder if anyone has experience with this sort of thing, and if they have resolved it, what they did. I will try antidepressants I think at this point, I've read people describe it as 'painkillers for the soul', and that sounds about right

 

First of all I'm really sorry that you are going through this. 

 

It's really good that you started therapy for sure. It might not be a good idea to meditate as in some situations it can actually make things worse. 

 

I'm also sorry that you didn't have a good experience with your TCM practitioner. As a TCM practitioner I focus on mental health issues, and it does help a lot of people. 

 

If you really want to meditate then at the very least I would NOT recommend mindfulness. Rather I would recommend a LOT of Metta meditation. 

 

Again I'm sorry you feel so bad and I do hope that you feel better as soon as possible. 

[liminal_luke]

Like many others, I´m generally suspicious of psychiatric medications.  And yet sometimes they are just the thing -- my partner would likely not be alive today without them.  You might consider consulting with a psychiatrist and see what recommendations you get.  It´s always your body and you obviously don´t have to do what any doctor says, but it might be worth getting an opinion, especially since you are suffering so deeply.

 

Hope you feel better!

[-_sometimes]

On 11/06/2024 at 9:28 PM, Maddie said:

 

First of all I'm really sorry that you are going through this. 

 

It's really good that you started therapy for sure. It might not be a good idea to meditate as in some situations it can actually make things worse. 

 

I'm also sorry that you didn't have a good experience with your TCM practitioner. As a TCM practitioner I focus on mental health issues, and it does help a lot of people. 

 

If you really want to meditate then at the very least I would NOT recommend mindfulness. Rather I would recommend a LOT of Metta meditation. 

 

Again I'm sorry you feel so bad and I do hope that you feel better as soon as possible. 

 

Thank you for the kind words. I've heard that meditation is not recommended for some as well, as it can increase internal focus, which for some just makes things worse. Freeform on this forum also mentioned that qigong might not be recommended for those with depression and anxiety too, so that's a bummer. It's quite troublesome, because I thought these things were supposed to help 

 

When I went on the retreat, the teacher specifically did not recommend meta, because she thought it would further build an outer shell of positivity that wasn't reflective of what was happening internally. 

 

With regards to the TCM practitioner, she was incredibly rude even when booking an appointment, so that was probably a red flag  

Edited June 14 by -_sometimes

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

 because the moment I try to focus internally, even if that's just on my breath, I get involuntary muscle twitches in my neck and face, 

Does these twitches appear only in this context, or do they come in other situations?

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

 

 

When I went on the retreat, the teacher specifically did not recommend meta, because she thought it would further build an outer shell of positivity that wasn't reflective of what was happening internally

 

With regards to the TCM practictioner, she was incredibly rude even when booking an appointment, so that was probably a red flag  

 

I'm sorry about that experience with the TCM practitioner.

 

I find the advice you were given about Metta odd since the Buddha himself listed Metta practice as one of the paths to enlightenment. That does not sound very external to me. 

[-_sometimes]

14 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Does these twitches appear only in this context, or do they come in other situations?

As soon as I direct my awareness internally. It doesn't have to be the breath, it could be just attention on the body. I think the lower down I place my attention, the less I get the movements 

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

When I went on the retreat, the teacher specifically did not recommend meta, because she thought it would further build an outer shell of positivity that wasn't reflective of what was happening internally. She suggested a few things actually, such as ayahuasca or kambo, to be able to bring my attention to the issues. She thought that it was an issue of attunement, that my attention was not focused in the right way on myself, preventing me from being able to see it. I recall she mentioned that it's possible without transmission from a teacher I may never be able to tune my attention the right way, but I felt discouraged from asking for help in that regard. I don't know why.. perhaps I should speak with her again, but it feels like a tremendous favour to ask of someone.

 

Beth Upton said all this? 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

8 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

As soon as I direct my awareness internally. It doesn't have to be the breath, it could be just attention on the body. I think the lower down I place my attention, the less I get the movements 

 

Where do you normally place your awareness during meditation?

[-_sometimes]

16 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

 

Where do you normally place your awareness during meditation?

The breath moving across the upper lip just below the nose. 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

The breath moving across the upper lip just below the nose. 

Well there is your problem then. Of course you are feeling twitching in your head and neck, you are directing all of your qi there. Next time you meditate, focus on your lower abdomen, and only there. Breathe in and out through your nose but do not follow it, keep your mind on your lower abdomen below your belly button. 
 

Where do you place your tongue during meditation?

[snowymountains]

Print this thread and show it to your therapist, they're your ally. Discuss the topic of meditation with them.

 

Bring up that to them that you're thinking about antidepressants as well.

 

It's not a mechanical process, you have an important role in it.

 

Best of luck 🤞

[-_sometimes]

7 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Well there is your problem then. Of course you are feeling twitching in your head and neck, you are directing all of your qi there. Next time you meditate, focus on your lower abdomen, and only there. Breathe in and out through your nose but do not follow it, keep your mind on your lower abdomen below your belly button. 

I will try this, but I can't feel my breath there, only the movement of the abdomen as I breathe, and I can't exactly see how focusing on a body part will lead to concentration as can be found through breath and other object meditation. I've read a lot about how it can cause stagnation as the mind should naturally rest in the abdomen through sinking, not actively 'placed' there.

 

That said, if my mind does calm down enough that way, I suppose I could shift my attention back to the breath. What I struggle to understand is how, if placing my attention on this area brings my qi up, why is this not something all meditators struggle with? The focus I place on the breath is very, very light, I'm not forcing anything at all!

 

15 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

Where do you place your tongue during meditation?

I place my tongue on the roof of the mouth

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

20 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

I will try this, but I can't feel my breath there, only the movement of the abdomen as I breathe, and I can't exactly see how focusing on a body part will lead to concentration as can be found through breath and other object meditation. I've read a lot about how it can cause stagnation as the mind should naturally rest in the abdomen through sinking, not actively 'placed' there.

 

That said, if my mind does calm down enough that way, I suppose I could shift my attention back to the breath. What I struggle to understand is how, if placing my attention on this area brings my qi up, why is this not something all meditators struggle with? The focus I place on the breath is very, very light, I'm not forcing anything at all!

 

You don’t need to feel your breath, just focus on that area. Don’t focus on your breath. It doesn’t cause stagnation, it brings the qi from the rest of your body back to the lower dantien where it belongs. Try it out and see if it makes a difference.

 

20 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

I place my tongue on the roof of the mouth

 

That’s good, keep doing this.

[Gerard]

12 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

 

I have this crushing emotional pain in my chest much of the time

Lung dysfunction. But in Taoism/Chinese Medicine nothing works independently, everything is interrelated. Basically you need to clear and heal all the organ networks.

 

Circle walking Ba Gus Zhang is brilliant at this especially when practiced in the natural environment on a daily basis.

 

Average time frame: 10 years for a significant change.

 

May I ask what is your DOB?

 

 

[johndoe2012]

I get past lives as an issue to clear if I sense into your system. 

 

Trauma can sit in your system carried over from past lives, some call it karma. Can be cleared by a healer. 

 

You could also try sitting with Mother Meera on YouTube 

 

Best live but here is a recording 

 

 

[-_sometimes]

2 hours ago, Gerard said:

Lung dysfunction. But in Taoism/Chinese Medicine nothing works independently, everything is interrelated. Basically you need to clear and heal all the organ networks.

 

Circle walking Ba Gus Zhang is brilliant at this especially when practiced in the natural environment on a daily basis.

 

Average time frame: 10 years for a significant change.

10 years? Goddamn.. why so long? 

[-_sometimes]

I had a session with my therapist today that was quite enlightening. We started doing IFS and seeing the components at play was fascinating, and the disconnect I feel seems to make a little more sense. I am, quite literally, disconnected from the deeper parts of myself, through an elaborate process, that means i feel a great deal of discomfort but am unable to go any deeper to get to the root of them.

 

This was very interesting, and for once, i feel like I might actually have a feasible way out of this, which is quite delightful

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

I had a session with my therapist today that was quite enlightening. We started doing IFS and seeing the components at play was fascinating, and the disconnect I feel seems to make a little more sense. I am, quite literally, disconnected from the deeper parts of myself, through an elaborate process, that means i feel a great deal of discomfort but am unable to go any deeper to get to the root of them.

 

This was very interesting, and for once, i feel like I might actually have a feasible way out of this, which is quite delightful

 

Happy to hear it went well, your therapist is your ally & will help in connecting with those parts of you.

[Mark Foote]

On 6/11/2024 at 3:17 PM, Maddie said:

 

I'm sorry about that experience with the TCM practitioner.

 

I find the advice you were given about Metta odd since the Buddha himself listed Metta practice as one of the paths to enlightenment. That does not sound very external to me. 
 

My understanding is that Metta meditation was an invention of the 18th century, in Burma or Thailand.

If you can quote from the Pali sutta or vinaya, that would clarify things.

 

[Maddie]

Just now, Mark Foote said:

My understanding is that Metta meditation was an invention of the 18th century, in Burma or Thailand.

If you can quote from the Pali sutta or vinaya, that would clarify things.

 

 

I've definitely read several suttas that talk about Metta and its virtues although unfortunately I can't think of the references off the top of my head. In one sutta in particular the Buddha was listing various paths/methods to obtain liberation and he listed Metta as an option. 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/12/2024 at 12:04 AM, -_sometimes said:

The breath moving across the upper lip just below the nose. 

 

 

Love the anime avatar.

How about:
 

In one of his lectures, Shunryu Suzuki spoke about the difference between “preparatory practice” and “shikantaza”, or “just sitting”:

 

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. 

 

(“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970)

 

 

Suzuki said that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of “doing something”, and that “doing something” makes such practice only preparatory.

 

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, necessity in the movement of breath can also direct attention, as I wrote previously:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

 

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

... activity can take place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

("Take the Backward Step")

 

 

Easiest time to discover necessity placing awareness is just before falling asleep.

 

 

[Mark Foote]

10 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

I've definitely read several suttas that talk about Metta and its virtues although unfortunately I can't think of the references off the top of my head. In one sutta in particular the Buddha was listing various paths/methods to obtain liberation and he listed Metta as an option. 
 

 

 

If you come across something in the sutta or vinaya, I'd love to hear it.  I have only one confirmation of my understanding that metta meditation was fairly recent, but that was from a Buddhist who had lived some time in Southeast Asia.

 

 

[Maddie]

29 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

If you come across something in the sutta or vinaya, I'd love to hear it.  I have only one confirmation of my understanding that metta meditation was fairly recent, but that was from a Buddhist who had lived some time in Southeast Asia.

 

 

 

If/when I find the reference I'll be sure to let you know. Unfortunately when I read a big collection of suttas I don't always pay attention to the name of them.

 

I did hear that around the time that you mentioned that Buddhism in southeast Asia had somewhat of a revival as a reaction against Christian missionaries from western countries. I think I heard that prior to that, that Buddhism in southeast Asia had a much different character than it does today and it was mainly the monks basically acting as priests and doing rituals for the people. 

[Mark Foote]

23 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

If/when I find the reference I'll be sure to let you know. Unfortunately when I read a big collection of suttas I don't always pay attention to the name of them.

 

I did hear that around the time that you mentioned that Buddhism in southeast Asia had somewhat of a revival as a reaction against Christian missionaries from western countries. I think I heard that prior to that, that Buddhism in southeast Asia had a much different character than it does today and it was mainly the monks basically acting as priests and doing rituals for the people.