Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 (edited) On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said: What I am interested in is that quality of 'soul' that (supposedly ) defines us as different from all the other animals . Now, I can believe animals have a 'soul' under some definitions, but it is VERY OBVIOUS ( I have had arguments against this presented to me , but they are pretty useless and contradict the obvious ) that humans do things no other animal does ( I put emphasis on 'do' as we can observe the facts , instead of the postulations and assumptions behind a lot of these differences , ie. other animals do not build ocean liners or satellites , etc .- its an 'anthropological concept of 'soul ' ' Surley humans are unique, but who is not? Anyway, I am not going to disagree with you, and I don't think you would disagree that animals like elephants are pretty complex. I do not know where awareness begins or where it ends, if it ends, but god is it an interesting question. On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said: Where do we start ? I cant think of an earlier system than the Ancient Egyptian . ( I will go through mostly the western concepts , I am not big on eastern philosophy and I hope some posters that are will continue to contribute those concept . Dispute between man and his soul (or Ba, to be precise). Dated to between 2000-1700bc, middle kingdom. It is a very good read, but I am far to ignorant to comment on the egyptian perception of ba or soul. Does not take away from the beauty, tragic and poetic nature of the writing tho... Do you think the concept of a soul or something similar is simply innate, based on the assumption that awareness or life force or what to call it, must be eternal? On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said: They vary ( some 5, some 7 ) but I will focus on the 9 level concept . What is up with the number 9? 7 I have heard is related to the planets, but nine I do not know, all though it keep on reaccuring in myth and legends. On 20.6.2024 at 2:35 AM, Nungali said: The Ba is often translated as 'soul' - it seems to link the spiritual and material worlds ; the afterlife and the corpse . " Each ba was linked to a particular body, and the ba would hover over the corpse after death but could also travel to the afterlife, visit with the gods, or return to earth to those places the person had loved in life. " 3. The corpse had to reunite with the ka each night in order for the ka to receive sustenance, and it was the job of the ba to accomplish this. 4. There we go, thank you. It would be foolish for me to comment on your writings as I am as knowledgeable about the subject as I am of qauntom physics, but it is very interesting. _______________________________ You briefly mentioned tombs. I think burial customs is a topic that could shed some light on this subject (on what a soul or a spirit is). From what I have heard, hunter gatherers in Britain left their dead out in nature. In much of the world we have rite of committal, ""Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust." There are way to many customs to go trough them all, but one image I find particualary beautiful is the Irish Tir Na Nog, "far over the green meadows of the waters where the horses of Lir have their pastures." Wiki: In the tale, Oisín (a human hero) and Niamh (a woman of the Otherworld) fall in love. She brings him to Tír na nÓg on a magical horse that can travel over water. After spending what seems to be three years there, Oisín becomes homesick and wants to return to Ireland. Niamh reluctantly lets him return on the magical horse, but warns him never to touch the ground. When he returns, he finds that 300 years have passed in Ireland. Oisín falls from the horse. He instantly becomes elderly, as the years catch up with him, and he quickly dies of old age.[6] "So when evening comes and I silently go aboard And my lifeboat is lowered into six feet of earth I sail west in the sea to Mary McKear in The green Tir na Noir" In some cultures the ocean or water seems to be connected with the other or underworld, am I right? A portal of sorts? In Vedbæk, Denmark, 6000 years ago, a young woman was laid to rest beside a baby, with the dead infant placed upon a swan’s wing. "Grave 8, the most famous of the burials, contains a young woman, who may have died at childbirth, and a premature baby. The symbolism of the baby on the swan wing has been much debated with suggestions including purity and the ability of a water bird to transcend water, land and air. Certainly both bodies were cared for in death (the disorderly state of the mother’s ribs suggest that she may have been resting on an organic ‘pillow’), which suggests a belief that the spirit remained with the body." https://www.dailygrail.com/2016/11/a-baby-was-buried-upon-a-swans-wing-in-denmark-6000-years-ago/ Edited June 21 by NaturaNaturans Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 (edited) Shamanism, in essence, is about sending ones soul out on a journey to contact spirits, is it not? You know a thing or two about shamanism? It is enchanting for sure, would be fascinating to participate in an authentic shamanic ritual. But maybe that's lost to time... A sami shaman drum from the 1700s. A culture witch, I think, we know to little about and so much of its traditions are hammered out of them. Each drum carry an unique motif, resembling the personality of the drummer, their map of the spirit realm and their personal journey trough it. Beaten rhytmatically til a state of trance is achieved. One fun, but maybe not very PC fact, is that they traditionally drank the urine of reindeer who had fly agaric (the red mushroom with white spots) for a more intense... "enchantment." Spoiler Red and white, ladies and gentlemen, the colours of Christmas from the well known genius marketing move by coke less then a century ago. Depicting the story of a Christian saint from anatolia who flies around the heavens with the help of magic reindeers and delivers gifts under a sacred tree around the winter solstice. _____________ Not to be mistaken for sami music, it is faraoese, but I think the drums, lyrics, voice and... "hysterical noises" in the nicest possible meaning of the word sets the tone: Spoiler Spellbound I am, I am The wizard has enchanted me, enchanted me Spellbound deep in my soul, in my soul In my heart burns a sizzling fire, a sizzling fire Spellbound I am, I am The wizard has enchanted me, enchanted me Spellbound in my heart's root, my heart's root My eyes gaze to where the wizard stood 154. For the seventh I know, if a lofty house I see blaze o’er its inmates, so furiously it shall not burn that I cannot save it. That song I can sing. 155. For the eighth I know, what to all is useful to learn: where hatred grows among the sons of men—that I can quickly assuage. 156. For the ninth I know, if I stand in need my bark on the water to save, I can the wind on the waves allay, and the sea lull. 157. For the tenth I know, if I see troll-wives sporting in air, I can so operate that they will forsake their own forms, and their own minds. 158. For the eleventh I know, if I have to lead my ancient friends to battle, under their shields I sing, and with power they go safe to the fight, safe from the fight; safe on every side they go. (...) 166. Now are sung the High-one’s songs, in the High-one’s hall, to the sons of men all-useful, but useless to the Jotuns’ sons. Hail to him who has sung them! Hail to him who knows them! May he profit who has learnt them! Hail to those who have listened to them! Edited June 21 by NaturaNaturans Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 21 1 hour ago, NaturaNaturans said: Shamanism, in essence, is about sending ones soul out on a journey to contact spirits, is it not? You know a thing or two about shamanism? It is enchanting for sure, would be fascinating to participate in an authentic shamanic ritual. But maybe that's lost to time... A sami shaman drum from the 1700s. A culture witch, I think, we know to little about and so much of its traditions are hammered out of them. Each drum carry an unique motif, resembling the personality of the drummer, their map of the spirit realm and their personal journey trough it. Beaten rhytmatically til a state of trance is achieved. One fun, but maybe not very PC fact, is that they traditionally drank the urine of reindeer who had fly agaric (the red mushroom with white spots) for a more intense... "enchantment." Reveal hidden contents Red and white, ladies and gentlemen, the colours of Christmas from the well known genius marketing move by coke less then a century ago. Depicting the story of a Christian saint from anatolia who flies around the heavens with the help of magic reindeers and delivers gifts under a sacred tree around the winter solstice. _____________ Not to be mistaken for sami music, it is faraoese, but I think the drums, lyrics, voice and... "hysterical noises" in the nicest possible meaning of the word sets the tone: Reveal hidden contents Spellbound I am, I am The wizard has enchanted me, enchanted me Spellbound deep in my soul, in my soul In my heart burns a sizzling fire, a sizzling fire Spellbound I am, I am The wizard has enchanted me, enchanted me Spellbound in my heart's root, my heart's root My eyes gaze to where the wizard stood 154. For the seventh I know, if a lofty house I see blaze o’er its inmates, so furiously it shall not burn that I cannot save it. That song I can sing. 155. For the eighth I know, what to all is useful to learn: where hatred grows among the sons of men—that I can quickly assuage. 156. For the ninth I know, if I stand in need my bark on the water to save, I can the wind on the waves allay, and the sea lull. 157. For the tenth I know, if I see troll-wives sporting in air, I can so operate that they will forsake their own forms, and their own minds. 158. For the eleventh I know, if I have to lead my ancient friends to battle, under their shields I sing, and with power they go safe to the fight, safe from the fight; safe on every side they go. (...) 166. Now are sung the High-one’s songs, in the High-one’s hall, to the sons of men all-useful, but useless to the Jotuns’ sons. Hail to him who has sung them! Hail to him who knows them! May he profit who has learnt them! Hail to those who have listened to them! The Sami are very interesting, there are a lot of academic papers on them on the web if you want to read about this topic. When we retire, and have time for this sort of activity, we'd love to spend some time with them, as well as with other shamanic cultures, if we get a chance to 🤞. My partner actually had spent some time with them in the distant past. Their shamans considered her to be a ..shaman and perhaps in a sense she is. Western neo shamanism though is a completely different thing, imo at best it's simply not worth it. An interesting nugget is that their upper/middle/lower world cosmologies is shared with some Lakota tribes at the other side of the pond ( not all shamanic cultures share cosmologies, unlike western neo Shamanism claims ). 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowymountains said: The Sami are very interesting, there are a lot of academic papers on them on the web if you want to read about this topic. When we retire, and have time for this sort of activity, we'd love to spend some time with them, as well as with other shamanic cultures, if we get a chance to 🤞. My partner actually had spent some time with them in the distant past. Their shamans considered her to be a ..shaman and perhaps in a sense she is. Western neo shamanism though is a completely different thing, imo at best it's simply not worth it. An interesting nugget is that their upper/middle/lower world cosmologies is shared with some Lakota tribes at the other side of the pond ( not all shamanic cultures share cosmologies, unlike western neo Shamanism claims ). It is very interresting. What do you think was lmplied by shaman, in her context? Another fun commonality between northren Eurasia and some native americans is the world, or shaman, tree. The fancy term being axis mundi (central pillar). One of the names of the world tree is Yggdrasil (Odins horse, or litterally: horse of the terrible one). Similarities between norse and to siberian "shaman" world trees (where the shaman travels between the 7 or 9 realms) . The world tree with an eagle at the top and a serpent gnawing at its roots, and my favorite creature, the squirrel ratatoskr running up and down transmitting insults between them. Edited June 21 by NaturaNaturans 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowymountains said: upper/middle/lower This reminds me very much of Asgard, Midgard and Udgard. Gard meaning «fence» or «enclosed area.» The fortress of the gods surrounded by the of men, middle earth, once again surrounded by monsters, trolls and other… forces of chaos out in the utgard, beyond the fence: the unknown and foreign. Edited June 21 by NaturaNaturans 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 Is it not a bit of a paradox to be in conflict with one self? «loosing your soul» Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 21 2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: It is very interresting. What do you think was lmplied by shaman, in her context? Another fun commonality between northren Eurasia and some native americans is the world, or shaman, tree. The fancy term being axis mundi (central pillar). One of the names of the world tree is Yggdrasil (Odins horse, or litterally: horse of the terrible one). Similarities between norse and to siberian "shaman" world trees (where the shaman travels between the 7 or 9 realms) . The world tree with an eagle at the top and a serpent gnawing at its roots, and my favorite creature, the squirrel ratatoskr running up and down transmitting insults between them. I think they sensed she senses other people very well. She has sensitivity in other people energies or alternatively is sensitive to transference as it is called today, and has a "healing personality type", or is a congruent empath as this is called today. Also a lot of symbolic dreams, which often are very to the point and often followed by synchronicities. I can't know how they perceived these things but I'm pretty certain that's what they saw, she fits that bill very well. I haven't looked into these versions of shamanism, I was aware of the 9 realms in some Norse cultures, I thought in Mongolia they only journey to the sky realms ( if I recall they believe there's an underworld too but don't journey there ) - but again, I haven't really dived into this, so could be wrong 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 21 2 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: Is it not a bit of a paradox to be in conflict with one self? «loosing your soul» Well losing one's self in past time and places is actually one of these things that's aligned with psychoanalytic thought, see IFS or, better, object relations theory. A part of us that's traumatised can drag us away from the here-and-now by surfacing thoughts and emotions from the there-and- then. So in a sense that part is "lost" and needs to be integrated ( or "retrieved" ). But tbh for this sort of work someone is better off seeing an analyst than a Shaman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 1 hour ago, snowymountains said: I haven't looked into these versions of shamanism, I was aware of the 9 realms in some Norse cultures, I thought in Mongolia they only journey to the sky realms ( if I recall they believe there's an underworld too but don't journey there ) - but again, I haven't really dived into this, so could be wrong I am not confident on the spesifics either. I read in a book called «tracing old norse cosmology» that this, the world tree with 7 or 9 realms, was a common (or at least known) element of siberian cosmology and there might be a connection. Ultimatley tho, if we tried to reconstruct it we would be in for a hard time. ______ On soul: yuch÷" peivrata ijwvn oujk a[n ejxeuvroio pa÷san ejpiporeuovmeno" oJdovn: ou{tw baqu;n lovgon e[cei. A preliminary translation, based on the standard text, can be: You will not find out the limits of the soul when you go, travelling on every road, so deep a logos 2 does it have. «Consequently, the implication of the fragment is not that one will not find out the limits of the soul, even if one travels every road. It is rather the paradoxical message that only the one who travels every road will not find the limits of the soul. Travelling all these roads is not an idle and necessarily mistaken attempt, going in the wrong direction, as it were, but rather the precondition of having (a soul that has) a deep logos. It is because of one’s ‘travels’, one’s comprehensive experience and understanding of the world, that one’s logos (or the logos of one’s soul) has become so deep, and this is why one will never find the limits of the soul—only such a person will be aware of the limitless- ness of the soul. And at this point the syntactic ambiguity can take effect: you can also become that person.» https://www.academia.edu/383189/The_Limits_of_the_Soul_Heraclitus_B45_Its_text_and_interpretation 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 21 10 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: Surley humans are unique, but who is not? Anyway, I am not going to disagree with you, and I don't think you would disagree that animals like elephants are pretty complex. I do not know where awareness begins or where it ends, if it ends, but god is it an interesting question. Its not about being 'unique' , its not about other animals 'not being complex' , its not about awareness beginning or ending either . However it is about a specific TYPE of awareness . For some reason, this usually happens and that is also very interesting .... VERY interesting - that is, why is it that every time I write about this and mention that humans have an influence on things the way no other animal has , and does things no other animal does people start laying red herrings at my feet and try to shift the goal posts ? very curious ! I am not talking or didnt mention any of that . I even directly mentioned the building of ocean liners and satellites . I was writing about what I wrote about , not that stuff . . Dispute between man and his soul (or Ba, to be precise). Dated to between 2000-1700bc, middle kingdom. It is a very good read, but I am far to ignorant to comment on the egyptian perception of ba or soul. Does not take away from the beauty, tragic and poetic nature of the writing tho... Do you think the concept of a soul or something similar is simply innate, based on the assumption that awareness or life force or what to call it, must be eternal? No , because I dont see why it MUST be 'eternal' . What is up with the number 9? 7 I have heard is related to the planets, but nine I do not know, all though it keep on reaccuring in myth and legends. What is 'up' with it is ; its the highest single digit , its the basic 'solid' framework of 3 .... x 3 . I dont know what you 'heard' about planets but the number 7 was the one most associated with a planetary scale as the 'ancients' knew of 7 'wanderers' in the sky . . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 1 hour ago, snowymountains said: Well losing one's self in past time and places is actually one of these things that's aligned with psychoanalytic thought, see IFS or, better, object relations theory. A part of us that's traumatised can drag us away from the here-and-now by surfacing thoughts and emotions from the there-and- then. So in a sense that part is "lost" and needs to be integrated ( or "retrieved" ). But tbh for this sort of work someone is better off seeing an analyst than a Shaman. Appreciate the refferences. But part of me would prefer to do mushroom and play dums in the artic. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 1 minute ago, Nungali said: Just curious if it is a matter of scale or nature, when it comes to experiences. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 5 minutes ago, Nungali said: ts not about being 'unique' , its not about other animals 'not being complex' , its not about awareness beginning or ending either . However it is about a specific TYPE of awareness . For some reason, this usually happens and that is also very interesting .... VERY interesting - that is, why is it that every time I write about this and mention that humans have an influence on things the way no other animal has , and does things no other animal does people start laying red herrings at my feet and try to shift the goal posts ? very curious ! I am not talking or didnt mention any of that . I even directly mentioned the building of ocean liners and satellites . I was writing about what I wrote about , not that What was you trying to get at then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 21 9 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: Shamanism, in essence, is about sending ones soul out on a journey to contact spirits, is it not? I would not say that . But Shamanism has turned into a world wide beast that could just about include anything nowadays . It has been culturally misappropriated and used as a label to put many practices in the same box that vaguely resemble the original . The Sami may be more closely related to the source though . " At the beginning of the twentieth century, the absolute majority of western scholars who studied the native Siberian spiritual traditions insisted that the term ‘Shamanism’ should be applied only to the traditions of the peoples of North Asia and some small locations in Europe such as southern regions of Russia where Kalmyk Mongols settled. Scholars such as D. Klemenz, M.N. Hangalov, W. Radloff, R.Maack, L. von Shrenck, V. Bogoraz, V. Jochelson and many others unreservedly stood by the understanding that Shamanism as a religious and cultural phenomenon is limited to these territories and nations who traditionally inhabited them before the conquest of Siberia by the Russians. However, later researchers gradually departed from this clear definition and the term began losing its precise meaning and value. With the onset of the New Age movement, this term came to be applied to any kind of traditional or questionable, to say the least, New Age psychic techniques regardless of whether it has anything to do with Native Siberian traditions or the methods of Siberian shamans or not, thereby rendering this term completely meaningless and unsuitable for use in serious research. Some teachers adhering to religions devoid of the figure of a shaman nevertheless try to re-invent themselves as ‘shamans’ and their teachings as ‘shamanic’ in order to better sell themselves and their beliefs to the audience. In fact, they only damage their own tradition and further degrade the meaning of the word ‘shaman’. " _ https://www.boandbon.com/siberian-shamanism-bо-murgel/ You know a thing or two about shamanism? It is enchanting for sure, would be fascinating to participate in an authentic shamanic ritual. But maybe that's lost to time... A sami shaman drum from the 1700s. A culture witch, I think, we know to little about and so much of its traditions are hammered out of them. Each drum carry an unique motif, resembling the personality of the drummer, their map of the spirit realm and their personal journey trough it. Beaten rhytmatically til a state of trance is achieved. One fun, but maybe not very PC fact, is that they traditionally drank the urine of reindeer who had fly agaric (the red mushroom with white spots) for a more intense... "enchantment." Reveal hidden contents Red and white, ladies and gentlemen, the colours of Christmas from the well known genius marketing move by coke less then a century ago. Depicting the story of a Christian saint from anatolia who flies around the heavens with the help of magic reindeers and delivers gifts under a sacred tree around the winter solstice. _____________ Not to be mistaken for sami music, it is faraoese, but I think the drums, lyrics, voice and... "hysterical noises" in the nicest possible meaning of the word sets the tone: Hide contents Spellbound I am, I am The wizard has enchanted me, enchanted me Spellbound deep in my soul, in my soul In my heart burns a sizzling fire, a sizzling fire Spellbound I am, I am The wizard has enchanted me, enchanted me Spellbound in my heart's root, my heart's root My eyes gaze to where the wizard stood 154. For the seventh I know, if a lofty house I see blaze o’er its inmates, so furiously it shall not burn that I cannot save it. That song I can sing. 155. For the eighth I know, what to all is useful to learn: where hatred grows among the sons of men—that I can quickly assuage. 156. For the ninth I know, if I stand in need my bark on the water to save, I can the wind on the waves allay, and the sea lull. 157. For the tenth I know, if I see troll-wives sporting in air, I can so operate that they will forsake their own forms, and their own minds. 158. For the eleventh I know, if I have to lead my ancient friends to battle, under their shields I sing, and with power they go safe to the fight, safe from the fight; safe on every side they go. (...) 166. Now are sung the High-one’s songs, in the High-one’s hall, to the sons of men all-useful, but useless to the Jotuns’ sons. Hail to him who has sung them! Hail to him who knows them! May he profit who has learnt them! Hail to those who have listened to them! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 21 9 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: Just curious if it is a matter of scale or nature, when it comes to experiences. You are going to have to give me a context that this question is framed by .... more than an empty quote box . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 21 8 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: What was you trying to get at then? " that humans have an influence on things the way no other animal has , and does things no other animal does " IE the fact that humans are very different from other animals . I often explore the reason for this difference and how and why we have these different abilities , is an essential question of anthropology and , well, life itself .... its gotta be one of those central questions . isnt it ? Or are people going around not noticing ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 5 minutes ago, Nungali said: You are going to have to give me a context that this question is framed by .... more than an empty quote box . The empty text box happened automatically. Context: if the traits that makes us human, are different in degree or nature to that of animals. Instead of assuming what traits you think that is, ill let you speak your mind Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sir Darius the Clairvoyent Posted June 21 33 minutes ago, Nungali said: Could the kalmyk mongols you mention have any relation to the huns? Reason for asking is a shift in material culture around the time of atilla, in witch the artifacts Are described as becomming more animistic or shamanic in nature. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 22 8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said: Appreciate the refferences. But part of me would prefer to do mushroom and play dums in the artic. Hey, whatever works 😁 So-called "Soul retrieval" can be done while shopping, while at the supermarket, while working, singing or out with company, after someone has become aware of their object-relations. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 22 (edited) Though I believe neo shamanism is kind of meh, I cannot help but wonder what a great mental health these tribes enjoyed, practicing genuine flavours of shamanism. I honestly believe the disconnect with these parts, the need for analysis today, is 90% because people have disconnected from similar traditions and are viewed by governments and society as economic productivity robots. These tribes likely had much healthier cultural norms and probably enjoyed far greater mental health. Edited June 22 by snowymountains 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted June 22 2 hours ago, snowymountains said: Though I believe neo shamanism is kind of meh, I cannot help but wonder what a great mental health these tribes enjoyed, practicing genuine flavours of shamanism. I honestly believe the disconnect with these parts, the need for analysis today, is 90% because people have disconnected from similar traditions and are viewed by governments and society as economic productivity robots. These tribes likely had much healthier cultural norms and probably enjoyed far greater mental health. Sorry to spoil the drift but it sounds like some romanticizing of some "native" ways which also had their less than wonderful aspects. For instance native American tribes had some horrific wars against each other along with further forms of violence and or slavery being exercised against the remaining people of the losing tribe afterwards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 22 1 hour ago, old3bob said: Sorry to spoil the drift but it sounds like some romanticizing of some "native" ways which also had their less than wonderful aspects. For instance native American tribes had some horrific wars against each other along with further forms of violence and or slavery being exercised against the remaining people of the losing tribe afterwards. We have horrific wars today too. I was discussing the mental health aspects. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted June 22 (edited) some good some bad, some wonderful some horrific, are not those the aspects of mankind? (mental or otherwise) Edited June 22 by old3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snowymountains Posted June 22 15 minutes ago, old3bob said: some good some bad, some wonderful some horrific, are not those the aspects of mankind? (mental or otherwise) All are aspects of mankind, but it's also time invariant, I was focusing on these societies which today view as primitive, had societal habits which are overall much better from a mental health point of view Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
