Spirit / Soul

[Nungali]

What do you think are the differences between spirit and soul ? 

 

 

[snowymountains]

18 minutes ago, Nungali said:

What do you think are the differences between spirit and soul ? 

 

 

 

Well, depends on how you define them, it's not like any surgeon ever removed a spirit or a soul, they're not bodily after all and therefore entirely subject to definition.

 

Often spirit is defined to be divine perceived to be eternal while the soul more about our psychology.

But other people refer to the soul as something eternal. So it depends on which dictionary someone had when they were 8 😁.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

Well, depends on how you define them, it's not like any surgeon ever removed a spirit or a soul, they're not bodily after all and therefore entirely subject to definition.

 

That's it right there! It depends on how you define them as they are merely conceptual and being so disposed can be whatever you imagine them to be. They are also intangible - no one can show you a soul or spirit. 

 

I'm more comfortable with working what CAN be seen. 

 

Quote

 

... the tenzo said, "If you want to understand words you must look into what words are. If you want to practice, you must understand what practice is."

 

I asked, "What are words?"

 

The tenzo said, "One, two, three, four, five."

 

I asked again, "What is practice?"

 

"Everywhere, nothing is hidden."

 

- Instructions for the Tenzo by Eihei Dogen

 

 

Enlightenment can be pointed out by "anyone" that has experience of it. It is always right here, right now, not intangible, not obscured, but you must be ready to give up everything to see it. To see it is to see through all constructs, such as "one, two, three, four, five". 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

To me, it is rather simple: soul is the essence of who YOU are and resides inside you. A spirit is more of a wandering entity not tied to person. A ghost or a demon are spirits, not souls. An aware, biological being contains a soul. But, that is my take. What is yours?
 

I am not sure how helpfull this is, but it is fun. Still, ill put it in a spoiler in case some find it tideous:

 

Spoiler

 

«We find evidence for the deification of the wind in most Indo-European traditions. The root *h₂weh₁ ("to blow") is at the origin of the two words for the wind: *H₂weh₁-yú- and *H₂w(e)h₁-nt-.^[201][202]

^(…)

This god is hypothesized to have been linked to life and death through adding and taking breath from people.»

 

—————

«wind (n.1)

"air in motion," Old English wind "wind," from Proto-Germanic *winda- (source also of Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Middle Dutch, Dutch wind, Old Norse vindr, Old High German wind, German Wind, Gothic winds), from PIE *wē-nt-o‑ "blowing," suffixed (participial) form of root *we- "to blow."

(…)

Meaning "breath" is attested from late Old English; especially "breath in speaking" (early 14c.), so long-winded, also "easy or regular breathing" (early 14c.), hence second wind in the figurative sense (by 1830), an image from the sport of hunting.
(…)

Related to wend, which is its causative form, and to wander. The past tense and past participle merged in Middle English. Meaning "to twine, entwine oneself around"
—————

Norwegian wiki on «ånd» (breath/spirit):

The word "ånd" originally means "breath". In Greek, it is called pneuma or nous; in Latin, spiritus, mens, animus, or anima; in Hebrew, ruach; in Arabic, ruh; in English, mind or spirit; in French, esprit; and in German, Geist. Creative activity, also called creativity, is the non-material basis for both material and non-material products. The Copyright Act regulates ownership of such products. Here, "ånd" represents inspiration, and "verk" represents the result.

(translates by your beloved GPT)

————1

Not too long after the world itself was created, Odin was walking along the coast of one of the new land masses. With him were two other gods: in one version, these were his brothers Vili and Ve,[1] and in another version, they were the obscure figures Hoenirand Lodurr.[2]

The three deities found two tree trunks, perhaps pieces of driftwood, lying on the beach. They were shaped like a man and a woman, but they were lifeless and powerless. So the three gods decided to give them what they lacked and make them true humans. Odin blew into them the breath of life, while his two companions imparted inspired mental activity, a healthy complexion, and the ability to speak, hear, and see.[3] 

———-

the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

 

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I think of spirit as more Yang, the intangible part of us that goes up and out; soul as more yin, the intangible part that goes down and in.  

[Nintendao]

Within most daoist frameworks, the soul is subdivided into yang and yin aspects of hun魂 and po魄. The hun is sometimes considered as detachable and can visit the heavens. It is one of the first things to become visible with the third eye. At least parts of it anyway. Like how when looking at the aurora borealis, it's not the earth's magnetic field itself that is being seen, but rather energized gases being held in place by it. The po soul is less mobile and can be perceived from deep within yin stage consciousness.

 

Spirit on the other hand is what they call shen神. That is branching into more wholly non-local domains such as of gods.

 

[Salvijus]

Soul is that which reincarnates from life to life. It has an individuality. 

 

Spirit is that which is beyond everything. The source of all life. All pervasive, all encompassing, infinite intelligence. 

 

Edited June 17 by Salvijus

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

4 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Within most daoist frameworks, the soul is subdivided into yang and yin aspects of hun魂 and po魄. The hun is sometimes considered as detachable and can visit the heavens. It is one of the first things to become visible with the third eye. At least parts of it anyway. Like how when looking at the aurora borealis, it's not the earth's magnetic field itself that is being seen, but rather energized gases being held in place by it. The po soul is less mobile and can be perceived from deep within yin stage consciousness.

 

Spirit on the other hand is what they call shen神. That is branching into more wholly non-local domains such as of gods.

 

It is nice to hear what its like in (what im assuming is) your cultural background. I like to compare it to others, and find both the similiarities and points of difference interrresting.

Apperantly the norse didnt have a word for soul before christianity. The self was divided in four parts:

 

Quote

 

Hamr (pronounced like the English word “hammer”) literally translates to “shape” or “skin.” (…) The Old Norse phrase that denotes the process of shapeshifting is skipta hömum, “changing hamr,” and the quality of being able to perform this feat is called hamramr, “of strong hamr.”[2] 
 

Hugr can be most satisfactorily translated as “thought” or “mind.” It corresponds to someone’s personality and conscious cognitive processes, and therefore overlaps considerably with what we today would call someone’s “inner self.”[3]

The hugr generally stays within its “owner,” but can at times create effects in faraway people just by thinking about them in a certain way. This is particularly possible for people who are described as having an exceptionally strong hugr.[4]

 

The Fylgja
Remember the cats, ravens, and other familiar spirits who are often the companions of witches in European folktales? These are fylgjur (pronounced “FILG-yur”) in the plural and fylgja (pronounced “FILG-ya”) in the singular. The fylgja is generally perceived in an animal form by those with second sight, although human fylgjur aren’t unheard-of. It’s an attendant spirit whose well-being is intimately tied to that of its owner – for example, if the fylgja dies, its owner dies, too

The fourth and final part of the Norse self that we’ll consider here is the hamingja (pronounced “HAHM-ing-ya”). The word is often used in an abstract sense to signify “luck,”[6]but the Norse understanding of luck is very different from our own. In Bettina Sommer’s fitting words, “luck was a quality inherent in the man and his lineage, a part of his personality similar to his strength, intelligence, or skill with weapons, at once both the cause and the expression of the success, wealth, and power of a family.”[7]

 

 

Hamingja (luck) is the reason we stuff like a person IS lucky (as a personal trait), rather then something that happen to them. It is also why we say the luck has run out, allthough in the norse mind that phrase might have been literal.

What ive read by Neil Price disagree with what is said about fylgja (guardian spirit). He describes it as a desceased female ancestor always watching over you.

Odin was a master of magic and could shapeshift and send his «spirit» out on a journey. He wasnt always a nice guy, so in one of the poems he threatened a layman doing the same thing with leaving him in the astral realm for eternity, unable to return to his body.

 

————

On another note, where does the word soul come from? The web wasnt to good help here. Wonder if it might be related to sol? (The word for sun in many indo euro languages. I think the proto word for sol is seul).

 

 

Edited June 17 by NaturaNaturans

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

Well, depends on how you define them, it's not like any surgeon ever removed a spirit or a soul, they're not bodily after all and therefore entirely subject to definition.

 

This is what I am asking, what is your definition , and how or why  do you have that definition .

 

22 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Often spirit is defined to be divine perceived to be eternal while the soul more about our psychology.

But other people refer to the soul as something eternal. So it depends on which dictionary someone had when they were 8 😁.

 

My take on 'soul' seems more psychological , I may get to that later .  Also I like to see  'spirit' as your true essence ; in the 'spirit' of a thing - its essential nature .

 

Yes, some see spirit and soul as similar or same  . I am assuming some of our bums researched and looked into the history of the development of the concept ... after they turned 8  as well .

 

My idea on some aspects being eternal is the mix up between some older concepts  where soul and spirit are not enough ; in Kabalah there are 4 'souls' or 4 levels , Egypt had a lot more .  The modern western concepts  seem pretty bare and scant compared to this

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

To me, it is rather simple: soul is the essence of who YOU are and resides inside you. A spirit is more of a wandering entity not tied to person. A ghost or a demon are spirits, not souls. An aware, biological being contains a soul. But, that is my take. What is yours?

 

A bit the opposite here ;  I see spirit as my essential nature . I think the idea of a spirit being  a ghost like wanderer , comes from the other concept of spirit , as in alcohol, 'spirit of' , distillation, 'vapor' etc .

 

To me it seems there are various constituents that make up the human psyche  , in the past some where considered to pass away at death, some stay here and some parts move on .  Some parts even survive death but not the 'second death' (or 'astral death' ) .

 

Recently , pre scientific revolution, we had three main concepts of psyche , then that got pared down to two; spirit and soul ... we lost something essential in concept .  ( I want to write more about this loss and transition later, but I need to reread some stuff first ) ,

 

I am not sure how helpfull this is, but it is fun. Still, ill put it in a spoiler in case some find it tideous:

 

  Hide contents

 

«We find evidence for the deification of the wind in most Indo-European traditions. The root *h₂weh₁ ("to blow") is at the origin of the two words for the wind: *H₂weh₁-yú- and *H₂w(e)h₁-nt-.^[201][202]

^(…)

This god is hypothesized to have been linked to life and death through adding and taking breath from people.»

 

Above , I mentioned the link between  spirit and breath  being pnuema ;

 

Pneuma (πνεῦμα) is an ancient Greek word for "breath", and in a religious context for "spirit" or "soul".^[1][2] It has various technical meanings for medical writers and philosophers of classical antiquity, particularly in regard to physiology, and is also used in Greek translations of ruach רוח in the Hebrew Bible

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneuma

 

- we can see the 'spirit /soul'  mix  up starts early . 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

—————

«wind (n.1)

"air in motion," Old English wind "wind," from Proto-Germanic *winda- (source also of Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Middle Dutch, Dutch wind, Old Norse vindr, Old High German wind, German Wind, Gothic winds), from PIE *wē-nt-o‑ "blowing," suffixed (participial) form of root *we- "to blow."

(…)

Meaning "breath" is attested from late Old English; especially "breath in speaking" (early 14c.), so long-winded, also "easy or regular breathing" (early 14c.), hence second wind in the figurative sense (by 1830), an image from the sport of hunting.
(…)

Related to wend, which is its causative form, and to wander. The past tense and past participle merged in Middle English. Meaning "to twine, entwine oneself around"
—————

Norwegian wiki on «ånd» (breath/spirit):

The word "ånd" originally means "breath". In Greek, it is called pneuma or nous; in Latin, spiritus, mens, animus, or anima; in Hebrew, ruach; in Arabic, ruh; in English, mind or spirit; in French, esprit; and in German, Geist. Creative activity, also called creativity, is the non-material basis for both material and non-material products. The Copyright Act regulates ownership of such products. Here, "ånd" represents inspiration, and "verk" represents the result.

(translates by your beloved GPT)

————1

Not too long after the world itself was created, Odin was walking along the coast of one of the new land masses. With him were two other gods: in one version, these were his brothers Vili and Ve,[1] and in another version, they were the obscure figures Hoenirand Lodurr.[2]

The three deities found two tree trunks, perhaps pieces of driftwood, lying on the beach. They were shaped like a man and a woman, but they were lifeless and powerless. So the three gods decided to give them what they lacked and make them true humans. Odin blew into them the breath of life, while his two companions imparted inspired mental activity, a healthy complexion, and the ability to speak, hear, and see.[3] 

———-

the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

wind and breath are commonly related to life force ;  are they still breathing ? is 'wind' (moving air ) coming out their mouth .

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

19 hours ago, Nintendao said:

Within most daoist frameworks, the soul is subdivided into yang and yin aspects of hun魂 and po魄. The hun is sometimes considered as detachable and can visit the heavens. It is one of the first things to become visible with the third eye. At least parts of it anyway. Like how when looking at the aurora borealis, it's not the earth's magnetic field itself that is being seen, but rather energized gases being held in place by it. The po soul is less mobile and can be perceived from deep within yin stage consciousness.

 

Spirit on the other hand is what they call shen神. That is branching into more wholly non-local domains such as of gods.

 

 

Agreed. I can expand on this from a TCM point of view.

 

As Nintendao said there are two souls from a TCM point of view. The Hun is the ethereal soul and is said to reside in the liver and is the part that is thought to reincarnate after death. It's thought to be where our deep seated personality characteristics are stored. The Po is the corporeal soul and is said to abide in the lungs. It has more to do with our animalistic and survival urges and dies with the body.

 

The spirit the Xin is said to reside in the heart and relates more to the mind and intellect and is also said to not survive death. There is also a Shen that is thought to reside in the upper dan tien as well. 

 

To me as a TCM practitioner these are more of a functional description when treating a patient and not necessarily meant to be taken literally, but of course some can and do take them this way. 

Edited June 17 by Maddie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

wind and breath are commonly related to life force ;  are they still breathing ? is 'wind' (moving air ) coming out their mouth .

Looking forward to the «third part» of the self. Honestly the spirit soul thing is a little… confusing. And yeah, about the qouted part, it makes sense, no? That breath and air got interpeted at that witch charactarize the living, and therefore «gives birth» in a sense?

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

I dont want to derail the thread, maybe ill make a seperate one. But here on daobums «the self» is often discussed. What is the self, in Your estimation?

 

Is the daoist understanding of self as considering of two parts comparable to the jungian? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology

Edited June 18 by NaturaNaturans

[Maddie]

40 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I dont want to derail the thread, maybe ill make a seperate one. But here on daobums «the self» is often discussed. What is the self, in Your estimation?

 

Is the daoist understanding of self as considering of two parts comparable to the jungian? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology

 

The question of all questions lol

Edited June 18 by Maddie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

4 minutes ago, Maddie said:

 

The question of all questions lol

According to the Norwegian encyclopedia it is the simplest question in the world:

"The self is a central and unique aspect of human personality, characterized by the individual's organized and enduring experiences of their own identity."

 

But obviously, there are many views, that all seem culturally dependend. You have mentioned the daoist one. The Christian soul. The norse four aspects of the self. The jungian self. And many more that I am ignorant of.

 

[snowymountains]

23 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

This is what I am asking, what is your definition , and how or why  do you have that definition .

 

I don't have one because I consider the question a matter of semantics, so any definition is equally valid.

Where it does make a difference is when reading an author and there it makes sense to read using the same definitions of the author.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I dont want to derail the thread, maybe ill make a seperate one. But here on daobums «the self» is often discussed. What is the self, in Your estimation?

 

 A  hodge podge mix of all different things , some material some imaginary and some ..... ? 

 

    I know that doesnt help much .

 

 

 

5 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

 

Is the daoist understanding of self as considering of two parts comparable to the jungian? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

I don't have one because I consider the question a matter of semantics, so any definition is equally valid.

Where it does make a difference is when reading an author and there it makes sense to read using the same definitions of the author.

 

But it isnt about one being valid over another ... that not the aim here .

 

Some people garner knowledge by  becoming familiar with various views on a subject .

 

personally I find some validity eventually if , when studying something and getting those different opinions , I find that across time location and culture a constant theme or information occurs ... it may have validity to us and our processes , overall .

 

My 'drive' here is overall , mercurial .    I have noted that  yours , on a few occasions , seem pretty different .

 

.

Edited June 18 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

According to the Norwegian encyclopedia it is the simplest question in the world:

"The self is a central and unique aspect of human personality, characterized by the individual's organized and enduring experiences of their own identity."

 

But obviously, there are many views, that all seem culturally dependend. You have mentioned the daoist one. The Christian soul. The norse four aspects of the self. The jungian self. And many more that I am ignorant of.

 

 

Jung  added a 4th aspect to the self ( 'religious instinct ' ) to Freud's 3 .  Norse has 4 . Kabbalah has 4. Egyptian has 4 major ones .

 

In a later post I will do some collating and show some of these concepts side by side from various cultures and regions , for comparisons .

 

 

.

Edited June 18 by Nungali

[snowymountains]

12 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

I dont want to derail the thread, maybe ill make a seperate one. But here on daobums «the self» is often discussed. What is the self, in Your estimation?

 

Is the daoist understanding of self as considering of two parts comparable to the jungian? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology

 

The self in daobums is not used in a technical manner, rather in an everyday speaking manner.

 

The field you are after to get an understanding of the "self" is, is called personality theories, sometimes also called personality structure theories.

There's no correct one in an exact sense between the modern ones as each personality theory has it's strengths and weaknesses, they basically focus on different things.

Btw behaviourists came up with some amazing results and methods without having a personality theory at all.

 

I wouldn't try to map 1-1 two personality theories because a significant understanding of both theories is needed for this.

For an intro to Jung's personality theory, Stein's book map of the soul is a good.

 

All in all it is good to have an understanding of the cognitive model, object relations, the pct model and the Jungian one, they focus on different things. Cognitive psychology is also very interesting.

Mapping concepts from one to another correctly is complex business though if someone wants to do it accurately.

 

Real-life personalities are of course something more unique and complex than the boxes of personality theories, personality theories are approximations.

 

Edited June 19 by snowymountains

[doc benway]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:51 PM, Nungali said:

What do you think are the differences between spirit and soul ? 

 

 

 

Spirit is Randy California and Ed Cassidy's old band and soul is a genre of music that didn't really have anything to do with their sound, except maybe for Mr. Skin which was pretty funky!

 

 

[snowymountains]

 

Adding the King of Soul for completeness 🙃

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

I know you are having a laugh, but in one way it is interresting: why do we describe art as «alive,» «soulfull,» «full of spirit.» etc?

[Nungali]

Yes, good .   " He has 'soul' " . It has another meaning  than some type of astral double 'spirit' .  ( I chose that one as it relates to a person , your other example of art  is classic 'anthropomorphize ' - to give  an object a quality it has evoked in you .

 

What I am interested in is that quality of 'soul' that (supposedly ) defines us as different from all the other animals . Now, I can  believe animals have a 'soul' under some definitions, but it is VERY OBVIOUS ( I have had arguments against this presented to me , but they are pretty useless and contradict the obvious )  that humans do things no other animal does ( I put emphasis on 'do' as we can observe the facts , instead of the postulations and assumptions behind a lot of these differences  , ie.  other animals do not build ocean liners or satellites , etc .- its an 'anthropological concept of 'soul '  ' ) .

 

Thats for later . For now I would like to continue collating .

 

Where do we start ? I cant think of an earlier system than the  Ancient Egyptian .  ( I will go through mostly the western concepts , I am not big on eastern philosophy and I hope some posters that are will continue to contribute those concepts ) .

 

I am going to refer to them as ' levels of soul ' - which seems accurate in some traditions but not others , some, it seems, would better be described as 'parts of self' with 'soul' or similar concepts being one part of the set .

 

Egyptian concepts -

They vary  ( some 5, some 7 )  but I will focus on the 9 level  concept .

 

The lowest form seems to be the Khaat - the physical body . It is this aspect that links the earthly life with the higher aspects .  The Egyptians seemed to think that by preserving this, after death , a link could remain with the earth . Offerings where given to it in the tomb - a very common artistic tomb motif  .  Perhaps due to its nature to decay when the life force is withdrawn , its hieroglyphic symbol is a  fish , something that quickly  indicates when its like force is withdrawn ^0.  . 

 

The  Ren  was one's name , not just your ordinary everyday name but a name that signified your 'spiritual' identity . As long as the name exists  , the spirit does .   We may liken this to the 'memory of someone ' .

 

The Shuyet  was translated as 'shadow' or 'soul shadow' .Its function was not clear and seems to relate to protection  and in the after life 'guidance' ; our inseparable negative double . " The shadow frequently appears in funerary contexts, often positioned alongside the body, perhaps to facilitate greater ease and swiftness of movement. Although it did not ascend to heaven, it remained attached to the earth and the earthly realm. Despite this belief, the shadow could briefly accompany the Ba upon its departure from the tomb."  ^1.

 

The next triad seems to consist of  some of the more well known concepts '

 

The Ka  - a sort of 'astral double'  , what most might think of as a  'ghost'   and  that similar concept we find some attribute to  'soul '  . But as a 'ghost like double' it might relate to what some understand as  'a spirit'  .  It was a 'continual form of identity ' , across incarnations . It was imbued with a spark of the divine . ^2.   Everything alive had a ka  - the 'spark of life ' .  We might say it is the form that our present bodies are based on and generated from but it does not have an earthly origin .

 

The Ba  is often translated as 'soul'  - it seems to link the spiritual and material worlds ; the afterlife and the corpse . " Each ba was linked to a particular body, and the ba would hover over the corpse after death but could also travel to the afterlife, visit with the gods, or return to earth to those places the person had loved in life. " ^3.  The corpse had to reunite with the ka each night in order for the ka to receive sustenance, and it was the job of the ba to accomplish this. ^4.

 

The Ab  was the 'heart', but not as we know it ( the physical heart was 'hat' )  .  The residing place of our propensity to do good or evil  in ourselves . It is that which is weighed in the balance against the feather of Ma'at in the afterlife .
 

I attribute these three to the next triad ;

 

The Akh seems to be a combination of the above two . It has been described as a 'magical union' between the two . This concept survived in a few esoteric / hermetic traditions , in that one must unite some aspects of self in order to have an aspect that survives death and continues on .  It is often translated as 'spirit' and an higher aspect of 'soul' . It is the Akh that lives for eternity , if formulated right, and 'lives amongst the stars and Gods ' .  ^5.

 

It reminds me of that great quote ; " I am not simply a human being , I am a human becoming . "  ( Kabbalist Samuel Avital )

 

The Sahu and Sechem seem aspects of the Akh :  Sahu, an aspect of the  Akh that can appear in dreams  or as a ghost and the Sechem was a power to control one's surrounds and outcomes ;  type of  magical  power that originates  in Akh ( which comes from the above combining of Ka and Ba ).

 

 

- I am hoping Apech or anyone with similar knowledge will add to this or correct me here .

 

Later ,  will move forward in time and look at the Zoroastrian and Judaic  concepts and then examine some Hermetic ones that came from a combination  and reduction of these .

 

Then I will look at how that got condensed down into three main aspects  in 'western consciousness' .   And then how we lost one to remain stuck in the current ideology of the duality of ' real and ideal '   ( that is there are only two classes of reality ; the 'real '  - the concrete material  and the 'ideal ' - emotions, feelings , forces of physics , etc . - ie. immaterial things that we can observe have a material influence, hence we give them a 'reality value '. )

 

0. See;  'Fish Stink' , a humorous addition to Normandy Ellis' transliteration of the Book of the Dead .

 

Spoiler

I will put it here for some fun  and the issue that its probably impossible to find ;

 

' It is true that fish stink . It is also true that the river is beautiful. But the river would be beautiful despite the fish .  What is noxious remains so.

That is not to say that shit is not useful  when buried in the wheat field . Bread made from the field tastes sweet , wine from the arbor sweetest . All things serve a purpose, but that is no reason to glorify what is abominable. A man must still watch where he walks and keep his sandals clean .  "

 

- 'Awakening Osiris ' -  The Egyptian Book of the Dead . Transliterated by Normandy Ellis .

 

 

1. https://historicaleve.com/shuyet-ancient-egyptian-shadow/

 

2. We find this in a few religions ; the concept that our internal 'spiritual fire ' / essence of life  is a sliver, flicker, flame or reflection of the greater creative force / personality / God/s  fire or light .

 

3. https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1023/the-soul-in-ancient-egypt/

I find this concept interesting in that I had an interesting  experience  with a 'ghost '   - an elderly lady that still  remained  (or part of her remained ? ) in a nice spot that she liked during her life .  What makes this interesting is two things; one, it was confirmed by description by someone else who had the  same experience  with her , without knowing what I experienced  . And the 'conversation' I had with old lady seems to affirm that it was  a place the person loved in life and could return to it .

 

4. https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1023/the-soul-in-ancient-egypt/

 

5.

Ba - 'flying ' between the worlds ,  Ka - sign of adoration or worship, to receive  the spark of the divine , Akh - a bird with shining plumage 'the transformed ascending soul' .

 

 

 

Edited June 20 by Nungali

[Nungali]

The Zoroastrian  'spiritual components ' seem to be mainly four divisions  and again, 'success' depends on some type of combination - or perhaps 'feedback' .

 

Spirit is termed 'the spirit' and in Avestan is the term Mainyu  -  however there seems a good case that means 'quality of mind '  - good or bad  ( spenta or angra ) ; 

 

" In the Gathas, which are the oldest texts of Zoroastrianism and are attributed to the prophet himself, angra mainyu is not yet a proper name.^[2] In the one instance in these hymns where the two words appear together, the concept spoken of is that of a mainyu ("mind", "spirit" or otherwise an abstract energy etc.)^[3] that is angra ("destructive", "chaotic", "disorderly", "inhibitive", "malign" etc, of which a manifestation can be anger). In this single instance—in Yasna 45.2—the "more bounteous of the spirits twain" declares angra mainyu to be its "absolute antithesis".^{[1] "  0.}

 

Hence it seems more of a definition of 'one's essential nature , or type of self  ....  as in  ' in the spirit of '  , as opposed to some type of ghost or apparition or astral double .

 

In this case  the whole system can turn from one about  good 'angels' and bad 'devils' ( and the origin of 'The Devil' , himself ) into an advanced 'mind science' - the cultivation of a good healthy and positive mind  - that leads to good  thought, words and deeds, with the subsequent teachings outlining everyday and social practices and prohibitions to cultivate a good quality of mind .

 

Mainyu is also the opposite of 'material existence '  - 'Gaetha' , in a way this represents the polarity of Ideal / Real .  The tyope of spirit we cultivate determines our attitudes and outlooks.  A brilliant, positive, constructive, and beneficent spirit that seeks wisdom is spenta mainyu and a gloomy, negative, destructive, and harmful spirit that wishes to remain ignorant is angra mainyu. This also carries over to effect the nature of our character and the nature of our soul . Depending on the spirit we choose, we become cheerful or angry, constructive or destructive, helpful or harmful, honest or dishonest, loyal or unfaithful, healthy or unhealthy, serene or agitated, peaceful or conflicted, holistic or imbalanced.

 

The Soul .  All living creatures have a soul ( Urvan )  in Zoroastrianism .  The type of soul depends on the type of cultivation of one's spirit . Dualism is all through Zoroastrianism , and seems a reflection of the minds propensity to go in either direction , so too the soul has a fate which may go in either direction . Soul 'character'  is built on the type of spirit that has been cultivated  and is within a persons control through their free will .  This implies choice and also accountability , in this life and the afterlife . " The soul creates its heaven or hell, both of which are a state of spiritual existence and not places."  All souls came from God and eventually will be 're-set' .... 'cleansed' and will return  - Zoroastrians believe in an eshaton  ( and probably invented the concept which got adopted by some other following religions ) .

 

Another important concept is the Fravashi , this resides in  the non- living creation as well as the living . It seems to suggest the creative principle , the 'divine spark'  and gives  all of creation  the 'fundamental forces'  and laws which rule and regulate both material and spiritual existences .  The fraveshi is like the universal soul and the urvan the personal soul , Frevishi is like a type of 'anama mundi' .

Another important component  is the Khvarenah .  It is our 'true will' our 'higher calling' the reason we incarnated and things we want to do and achieve  for this level of  spiritual evolution via material incarnation . Every human being is endowed with natural talents that can be harnessed and developed to achieve one's highest potential or one's higher calling [sometimes thought of as one's latent destiny in life. Alternatively, through choice, these talents can be employed to achieve base ambitions.

 

The forth concept is in the United Fraveshi .  A person's urvan (soul), mainyu (spirit), fravashi and khvarenah can unite  and this creates an 'abiding spirit' , to continue on in the afterlife .  After the afterlife initial process  a united fraveshi can become a 'guardian angel ' - offering assistance to  the living .  Another term for this is the Farohar or  Fravahar and its image is the symbol of Zoroastrianism ^1.

 

 

When one dies, the soul being immortal  comes to the 'Chinvat Bridge '  and meets  the 'personification' of one's soul ; its beauty and reception (or not ) depends on the life one led . So does the construction of the bridge  ^2.  Making a good or difficult transition  . The good is a wide and comfortable crossing accompanied by one's 'Daena'  ^3. The 'not so good '  dont make the crossing , its narrow and difficult and one , if bad enough, may 'fall' into a realm where the soul needs  adjusting and cleansing .

 

 

 

^0. https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/33053

 

1.  Prof. Mary Boyce in her article on the Fravashi, J. H. Moulton - in his Early Zoroastrianism (1913) at p. 260 - "rejecting the then prevailing Western interpretation of the Achaemenid winged symbol as that of Ahura Mazda, identified it as the king's fravashi, and it is still generally regarded as a fravashi symbol by Zoroastrians. Strong arguments, however, have by now been put forward by Western scholars for its representing khvarenah.

 

2. The etymology of 'chinvat' (Avestan), chinvar (Pahlavi), is that the name is derived from a combination of the Avestan chinaeta or Pahlavi chitan, meaning to arrange or lay as in bricklaying and the verbal root vid meaning knowledge or recognition. The conclusion is that the chinvat bridge is constructed over a lifetime of attaining wisdom and goodness.

 

3.
Three glorious dawns have risen and gone by
Since the last breath did from my body fly.
With the waking loveliness of the fourth day
A southern breeze whispered as it came my way.

Laden with fragrance as from a divine bouquet
With the sweetest of flowers in its spray.
Floating on those enamoured winds there came
A maiden more exquisite as I have ever seen.

Her face was radiant, her form divine
She stood before me casting a loving smile.
Amazed, my voice a question formed
"Pray, tell me who you are - an angel from heaven's door?"

In a silken voice her answer came
"I am your Daena and with your beliefs I am made.
With your every thought well thought and words well spoken
With every deed well done, my form was thus woven.

"Yes, it is you who made my form
As a sculptor shapes his clay.

"Then glorified by conquest over base desire
By every prayer before the holy fire
By every kindness to those in need
You gave me the beauty that you see.

"Now I shall be your companion and your guide
Across the bridge that spans the great divide.

 

- by K. E. Eduljee