Tom Bisio and Bruce Frantzis - Connection?

[Robin]

I've been studying some of Tom Bisio's Ba Gua and meditation materials. I've also studied with Bruce Frantzis. There seems to be quite a bit of crossover. For example, the use of the kwa, sinking chi, and dissolving blockages. Some of https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-six-theory-dissolving-clearing-blockages/ sounds a lot like what Bruce teaches in dissolving meditation.

 

This is very interesting to me, as over the years, I've really wanted some cross-references for Bruce's teachings, and I've found almost none. But with Tom Bisio, there appears to be some "corroboration." The question is, for me - is the overlap in material due to a shared common source, or did one of these teachers learn (some of) the material from the other, without explicitly stating this?

[idquest]

3 hours ago, Robin said:

I've been studying some of Tom Bisio's Ba Gua and meditation materials. I've also studied with Bruce Frantzis. There seems to be quite a bit of crossover. For example, the use of the kwa, sinking chi, and dissolving blockages. Some of https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-six-theory-dissolving-clearing-blockages/ sounds a lot like what Bruce teaches in dissolving meditation.

 

This is very interesting to me, as over the years, I've really wanted some cross-references for Bruce's teachings, and I've found almost none. But with Tom Bisio, there appears to be some "corroboration." The question is, for me - is the overlap in material due to a shared common source, or did one of these teachers learn (some of) the material from the other, without explicitly stating this?

 

From what I gather, the dissolving techniques Frantzis teaches is very similar to practice 'Kayotzarg' from Jain tradition. And later a Jain monk said to our group that Kayotzarg is similar to one of Vipassana. This is likely how Frantzis learned the technique, from Vipassana folks. Wang Liping also teaches a very similar technique which he calls something like 'Clearing the body'. 

 

In summary - this is a good technique and one can apply it with different intent and objective. But I wouldn't call it something specially secretive.

[Gerard]

Maybe the connection is related to the Ba Gua Zhang's teachers location which is in both instances Beijing. It's quite possible they both learnt meditation material via their Chinese teachers which would be Taoist in nature. Dong Haichuan taught also meditation to his students not only a highly advanced and sophisticated martial art system. Dong himself learnt from mountain Taoists in his travels throughout China.
 

The late Xie Peiqi from the Yin style BGZ also taught seated meditation techniques, eg:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Twelve-Guiding-Energy-Sitting-Meditations/dp/1888179511

 

 

[RobB]

Those things look like fairly standard components of any Daoist approach (certainly the ones I've come across). I don't think they're necessarily evidence of specific cross-fertilisation between the two individuals or their predecessors.

[Robin]

On 6/18/2024 at 2:05 AM, idquest said:

 

From what I gather, the dissolving techniques Frantzis teaches is very similar to practice 'Kayotzarg' from Jain tradition. And later a Jain monk said to our group that Kayotzarg is similar to one of Vipassana. This is likely how Frantzis learned the technique, from Vipassana folks. Wang Liping also teaches a very similar technique which he calls something like 'Clearing the body'. 

 

In summary - this is a good technique and one can apply it with different intent and objective. But I wouldn't call it something specially secretive.

Thank you for this. That's all very interesting. Bruce has a tendency to speak in hyperbole, so it's easy to get the idea that what he teaches is something special. It's an ongoing enquiry for me, as I like to think that we innately posses the capacity to heal ourselves. And yet at least 3 traditions which I respect make a deal of "transmission." Maybe there's a middle way between honoring and connecting with our own innate "body intelligence, " and also allowing any enhancement that may come our way via transmission to happen as well. One challenge for me is knowing which of the various spins on the technique to apply at any given time, and avoiding getting into a head trip about it.

Edited June 19 by Robin

[Robin]

6 hours ago, RobB said:

Those things look like fairly standard components of any Daoist approach (certainly the ones I've come across). I don't think they're necessarily evidence of specific cross-fertilisation between the two individuals or their predecessors.

It's the dissolving thing specifically which I've not come across outside of Bruce's teachings - although similar teachings are out there such as body scanning in Mindfulness meditation, or Yoga Nidra. Also Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's beautiful teachings on self-healing are very similar, but without the inner/outer dissolving distinction found in Bruce's teaching.

Also, I've seen quite a lot of tai chi being done without engaging the kwa. It's the physical details of Bruce's teaching which have inspired a certain amount of confidence in his more esoteric teachings, although it's not cut and dried for me...

Edited June 19 by Robin

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Robin said:

I've seen quite a lot of tai chi being done without engaging the kwa.

IMO If one practice the cloud hands, in Taiji, with the stance low enough, it is automatically engaging the kwa.

[Sahaja]

I think you are referring to song (release/letting go)which is one of the three main tools of the daoist internal arts.  Pertains to releasing both physical and mental tension that is found and released through use of the two other tools -ting - listening/receptive awareness and attention - awareness without intention. Intention (goals, plans, desires, imagination, etc) is a form of mental tension. These three tools are related to the concept and importance of wu wei - non governance in the Daoist arts. 

 

 The kwa is a yin energy field area of the body (co-located with the inguinal crease) which is used in certain internal martial arts  to move the body in lieu of using the outer hip region which should remain without tension (song’’d). It allows for energy to flow up from the feet  into the torso and arms through the soft tissues. Once the yin field is developed in the kwa it also enables movement without conventional external movement. 

 

I think these concepts are used by multiple lineages, though certainly with each having their own nuances. 
 

[Robin]

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

I think you are referring to song (release/letting go)which is one of the three main tools of the daoist internal arts.  Pertains to releasing both physical and mental tension that is found and released through use of the two other tools -ting - listening/receptive awareness and attention - awareness without intention. Intention (goals, plans, desires, imagination, etc) is a form of mental tension. These three tools are related to the concept and importance of wu wei - non governance in the Daoist arts. 
 

Song/sung is certainly part of what Bruce teaches. He claims it is excellent for martial arts, but that for deep healing and meditation work, more is needed. He teaches outer dissolving, where blocked chi is released to outside the etheric field, and inner dissolving where it is released into inner space.

Tom Bisio writes:

"Dissolving and Clearing Blockages:
In Lesson Five we learned how to slacken (Song) areas of tension. This is the starting point for clearing obstructions and dissolving blockages of the Qi/Breath. Becoming aware that an area is blocked or tight is the first step. By standing in the Wu Ji posture, observing and breathing, one becomes aware of these areas bit by bit. By bringing your awareness and attention to an area that is blocked, you bring the Qi/Breath to that area. As the mind-intention and the Qi/Breath gather there, it is possible to slowly disperse, melt, and dissolve the blockage. It does not happen all at once, but little by little over time. Attempting to use the mind-intention  to force its way through will only make the blockage more resistant. It can be dissolved by gentle awareness that slowly dissolves the blockage, like water wearing away a rock."

 

It is this "next level" past song which seems like it is potentially from the same source. I say this because whereas many practices involve scanning the body and being aware of sensations, the idea of "hanging out" with blockages and using the warmth of the mind to dissolve them is much less common.

[Taoist Texts]

On 6/18/2024 at 1:28 AM, Robin said:

..kwa...dissolving blockages. Some of https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-six-theory-dissolving-clearing-blockages/ sounds a lot like what Bruce teaches in dissolving meditation.

 

This is very interesting to me, as over the years, I've really wanted some cross-references for Bruce's teachings, and I've found almost none. But with Tom Bisio, there appears to be some "corroboration." The question is, for me - is the overlap in material due to a shared common source,

look at your link. There are chinese equivalents for various terms but curiously not for 'dissolving'. Why not? Because there was no chinese equivalent. Both of them 'borrowed' this term from Mantak who in turn made it up based on TCM not on traditional qi work.

 

Same with kwa. Its a made up term intended to hide the real IMA work from the external students, particularly foreigners.

Edited June 20 by Taoist Texts

[Sahaja]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

look at your link. There are chinese equivalents for various terms but curiously not for 'dissolving'. Why not? Because both of them 'borrowed' this term from Mantak who in turn made it up based on TCM not on traditional qi work.

 

Same with kwa. Its a made up term intended to hide the real IMA work from the external students, particularly foreigners.

Hmm. I thought they hid the real stuff from the annoying students by giving them visualization exercises to do instead. 

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-06-20 at 11:10 AM, Taoist Texts said:

 

Same with kwa. Its a made up term intended to hide the real IMA work from the external students, particularly foreigners.

Rotating the ldt?

[forestofclarity]

I think it is a variation of a basic technique that occurs over and over in Tantric-type traditions. Basically, it is allowing the grosser to change into the more subtle. There are all types of different names: divinizing, transmuting, refining, liberating, digesting, spiritualizing, raising, etc. From a Western alchemical view, however, one might say that needs gold to transmute base metals into gold, so these popularized methods is more transmuting iron into copper in my opinion. 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Rotating the ldt?

yes. and of course there is a necessary precursor to the rotation - peng, still a mystery to to the westerners, hehe