What was the beginning and cause for esoteric societies?

[NaturaNaturans]

Self explanatory : )

[Daniel]

Good question

[Nungali]

To explore the esoteric .

 

The beginnings are lost in time .... pre-history. In such cases I feel myself fortunate in that I live in a country where an ancient culture is still very much alive, survivng from a fuller form that existed up to very recent history . So in these cases I reference that , as an 'example' . 

 

However some people dispute this is valid ; t eg. o study a current stone age culture does not give us relevent ideas about past stone age cultures . I would then see the  beginnings in things like  'inner clans ' ( sub-divisions beyond the usual moieties)  that are based on restricted or highly specialized knowledge  and ' kadaicha inheritance  .

[Apech]

I could tell you but I would have to kill you.

[NaturaNaturans]

18 minutes ago, Apech said:

I could tell you but I would have to kill you.

Go ahead

[NaturaNaturans]

Can I ask what the purpose of these communities and the knowledge is?

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

I could tell you but I would have to kill you.

 

Should that not be ;

 

I can tell you but if you tell anyone else  ..... then I would have to kill you  .

 

- as is the nature of 'secrets'  

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Can I ask what the purpose of these communities and the knowledge is?

 

Certainly !    Anyone can   ask  .

[Nungali]

Oh .... and  'these communities' is pretty vague and all encompassing , they are not all the same , the variety reflects the variety of purpose and knowledge .

 

Unless you meant 'overall'  - through location and time , as a human dynamic  , then I can give you an overall purpose  ; 'anthropologically' .

[NaturaNaturans]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

kadaicha

So, according to Google these are the wise men of aboriginal cultures. Would you like to talk a little about them?

[Nungali]

They are all different due to the issue that there where hundreds of different cultures  here before colonization ; everything from ;

the traditional 'scary nasty fellow ' , old school , traditional 'bone pointers' .  Ones with a better reputation  and some kind and benevolent . They know 'magic'  -  in the traditional sense , they  are also known as 'clever men' , meaning 'magic knowledge' but also 'clever' in the other sense  - relating to  application of that knowledge

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/clever

 

They are usually associated with 'Law' , doubling as the role of 'tribal police man' - renown for tracking and hunting down the guilty , yet remaining 'invisible' themselves  ' feather foot '  ( and the associated 'skills' that go with that )

 

. https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherfoot

 

They seem to have a special, deeper or stronger connection with their totem ; all people have a totem and that goes with certain environmental responsibilities associated with it ; they sometimes seem as one of those animals  they have as totem , in some way . But I have never heard them say they can transform into that animal , that's Kadiacha talk !

 

Of course, the process of all this is highly secret ... how one would become one .  Sometimes the lines go way back . My teacher, for example,  holds his position (  he would be seen as a 'kadaicha'  and also is a tribal policeman , cultural teacher, initiator, elder and sacred site guardian ) party due to being a 7th son of a 7th son , and other things .

 

So its varied and complex and there is a lot more to it . 

 

  Here is a story  from two senior elders told to me in private a few years back .  Auntie P. is very interesting as  she never saw a white person  until she was around 10 years old ; dad worked for a farmer on a huge spread and he had a workers hut way 'up back'  out in the wilderness , where the family lived . They stayed there and mum would hid the little kids if a white man came ( because they used to take their kids off them and take them away) .  Similar families lived around there , sort of half integrated .

It was in this hut that the story came from , via  Aunty P and Uncle L  ( Bundjalung people )

 

'This bad Kadaicha came to area ... Oooo bad fellah . Our one was away , down the coast , special business . So this one was mucking up , he was nasty , he stole a little girl and took her up to his camp at the base of the mountain in the hills . You could hear her  crying, it was terrible. So one of our big fellahs went up there . He only just made it back , he was beat up bad . So then three men armed with spears and clubs went up there . They got a terrible hiding all three of them , beat up bad . So we sent a message to our Kadiacha who was away down the coast .

 

'Next day he turns up at our cabin, dont know how . He was angry ! All painted up for war  , I was scared of him, He looked  terrible .  He said only this :  " Where is he ? " I  told him and he went off up the back hill . Then a big fight started, we could hear them ! Then thunder started and lightening ... they flew up into the air and where fighting in the sky , throwing thunder and lightening at each other !  Then ... all quiet .  Long time, too quiet . By then we where all hiding under the bed , kids Mum and and Dad , we where so scared  and then  bam bam bam !  On the door . dad had to go to the door ... we didnt know if it was our guy or the bad one, come to get us for telling where he was .  dad went over to the door and opened it . It was our kadaicha ... we where so relieved , he was covered in blood . He told us : 'That fellah, he bad kadaicha ... but he  won't be giving anyone any trouble any more.' And he turned round and walked away .'

 

Some are  very nice helpful people, of course 

 

 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

Fascinating, plain and simple. So the aboriginals has to a large degree managed to old on to their way of Life and tradition? I was under the perception that only a very few and very remote people managed that. But good on them!

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Should that not be ;

 

I can tell you but if you tell anyone else  ..... then I would have to kill you  .

 

- as is the nature of 'secrets'  

There is the option to kill you first then tell you.  
 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

Just now, Apech said:

There is the option to kill you first then tell you.  
 

 

I mean, If you are going to kill me, at least give me the honor of telling me Your secrets first 🧙‍♂️

[Cobie]

11 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

… secrets …

There is no secret. Just a bunch of pompous gits.

[Daniel]

21 hours ago, Apech said:

I could tell you but I would have to kill you.

 

Softly?

 

 

[Daniel]

48 minutes ago, Cobie said:

There is no secret.

 

Uhhhhh-huh.  Sure.....

 

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Cobie knows things.

 

[old3bob]

On 6/25/2024 at 7:23 PM, NaturaNaturans said:

Self explanatory : )

 

and there is the mind trying to wrap its head around what it can not wrap around... because IT or that is so essentially undivided and simple that it is beyond the inherent duality of mind.

Edited June 27 by old3bob

[Apech]

On 26/06/2024 at 2:23 AM, NaturaNaturans said:

Self explanatory : )

 

I can suggest three reasons:

 

1). The knowledge which the society holds is a state of being/consciousness which is not transmissible in intellectual terms and thus the society is automatically esoteric simply because this is the case.  This is probably the essential reason.

 

2 ). In such a society the master and his students form a 'circle' (chakra) and they and their relative positions a mandala.  Thus to join is to enter the mandala of the master/guru - this forms a special and exclusive relationship which allows teaching transmission to occur.  Thus there are processes eg. vows, certain preliminary practices and so on to gain entry.  This is not intended to exclude but simply to retain the purity and the energy in the circle such that the process of transmission can occur.

 

3).  Given the first two points groups like this appear elitist and are often regarded with suspicion by outsiders - and especially the institutions of exoteric religion may see them as a threat to their exclusive holding of the hierophant's role in society generally.  For this reason the society goes 'underground' and in order to protect itself from persecution  and becomes even more secretive.

 

 

[Taomeow]

It may be different for different kinds of secret societies.  

 

For some I think the origins are purely biological.  Many animals hide in secrecy under particular circumstances.  E.g. when giving birth to their offspring -- this is a very vulnerable moment, both for the mother and the newborn, and the first secret societies must have been formed around a young pregnant woman and her helpers -- mother, grandmother, sisters, aunts.  Those who could help and not mess things up.  In tribal societies this custom survived into modernity and up to the destruction of traditional life: women involved secluded themselves in secret places, men were absolutely excluded for a period of time.  (An aside: I find the artificially made up custom, a few decades old, of the father being present when the woman is in labor, absolutely insane.  Unfair to the father who is prompted and coached as to what he is expected to feel, what he isn't supposed to feel...  this is always destructive for the genuine feelings.  Unfair to the mother who is suddenly a show, a performance -- while in the midst of the single most genuine experience of her life.  Ugh.)

 

A different kind of secret societies I believe were born of "civilization" which bred inequality which brought about criminality.  For criminal minded societies, esotericism was a mask to wear, a veil to hide behind.  Scare the shit out of everybody, exaggerate your power, put on a show, intimidate... that kind of stuff.  

 

And a still different kind -- truly esoteric, in touch with the invisible worlds, subtle energies, spirits, entities of power, both benevolent and malevolent.  This must often (more often than not) be kept secret from the uninitiated for the same reason we don't give matches to children.   

 

 

 

 

    

[Cadcam]

What is Wisdom depends upon the Age and culture, and need for change. I'd say that in ancient days, things were secret because the secrets helped develop the science and military. In the last 300 years,  I'd say it is secret because of the want for liberty, especially of the sexual nature. Today there are no real revelations that are secret, only the designs that came from them.

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Fascinating, plain and simple. So the aboriginals has to a large degree managed to old on to their way of Life and tradition? I was under the perception that only a very few and very remote people managed that. But good on them!

 

It depends... mostly their culture and land has been devastated  but some isolated people preserved large portions of it until recently  ( we have photographs of 'first contact ' .  Aunty P , I am guessing is,   about 75 so her story about 60 years back .

 

My teacher is a recent example  he was teaching  boys to be men and culture  fairly recently - 20 -30 ya  which involved them having to 'graduate by  putting it all into practice -   going off into wilderness naked, with nothing,  and surviving for a few months and then coming back .  Only a few years back  another man  ( sort of  a 'sidekick' or 'right hand man' to my teacher  ) was challenged on this by some other aboriginals ( who had lost such skills )  ; he got angry, told them to sit on the spot and wait , stripped off his clothes in front of them and went off .  Some time later he came back  and dumped some fish eels and turtles at their feet and scolded  them : There is your dinner , now don't you tell me I am not a 'real Aboriginal ' .  One of the others asked where the turtle came from . " The turtle hole in the river ! "  The other said , bullshit as  there are no more turtles there . " Not for you .... because you dont know how to catch them ."

he was asked how then did he catch them . " Dont you even know how to catch a turtle ? You sing the turtle song, they come up and poke their heads out the water and you  snatch them by the neck . "

 

Sometimes the 'culture clash ' can be 'amusing' ;  'the boys' when living on 'the mish '  ( mission - a place used to incarcerate Aboriginals that has become 'Aboriginal housing estate' ) backed on to large wilderness areas . They would jump the fence . strip off and grab their stuff hidden in the bushes ( lap-lap, spears , etc ) and take off and 'go Aboriginal' for a while . This wilderness area has some roads and walking tracks through it and is popular tourist destination and has some picnic areas and facilities .  They said they like to raid them ; jump out the bushes , yell out some lingo, brandish spears  and then take the picnic lunch     .... I called it 'Yogi Bearing' ... " You guys been Yogi bearing again ?"   They said they like Japanese tourists the best, the get really scared and think we are real wild Aboriginals  another commented  " I like their sushi stuff ."   - I can imagine them going back to town and reporting it to the local police ; " No, not joking ... real Aboriginal , they had spears .... they stole my lunch ."

 

Modern survival skills I suppose .

 

Of course there are many places and a lot of people that have lost all this, living it hard amongst the decay  that 'civilization' can generate and trap them in . Its virtually impossible to  live the old life anymore though ... here is a great example of that ;

 

 

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

There is the option to kill you first then tell you.  
 

 

 

Errrmmmm ... but then that takes away the fun of   ' oath penalties '  ... " And if I tell anyone else , I give permission to the Lord of this Universe to tie my testicles around my neck like a bow tie .... while hanging tied beneath a bridge and suspended by one leg "

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Cobie said:

There is no secret. Just a bunch of pompous gits.

 

The main money making, rip off,  pompous git of all time was a woman .

 

 

 

The book has been translated into 50 languages and has sold over 30 million copies.^[11] Due partly to an appearance on The Oprah Winfrey Show, the book and film had grossed $300 million in sales by 2009

 

Then they made a film of it ; a 2006 Australian-American spirituality documentary consisting of a series of interviews designed to demonstrate the New Thought "law of attraction",

 

The estimated domestic DVD sales in the US in 2007 exceed $56 million, and eventually topped $65 million

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(2006_film)

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

and there is the mind trying to wrap its head around what it can not wrap around... because IT or that is so essentially undivided and simple that it is beyond the inherent duality of mind.

 

 

So some just give it a symbol and accept that 'it is ' . Eg.