Who or what is "satan"?

[Nungali]

14 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Which probably got it from Egypt.

 

probably means you dont know .

 

Dont try to be an 'expert' on hermetics as well .

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, Salvijus said:

That's too deep for me, Brother. Looks interesting tho. 

 

fair enough

 

18 hours ago, Salvijus said:

The spirit of brotherhood and service is still missing in snakes imo

 

a den of vipers?  no such thing?

[old3bob]

oh hell, i was partly wrong and right on that one I'll admit it

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, Salvijus said:

This line can be interpreted as "they were of one will, of one heart, functioning as one spirit, mind and purpose" .

 

they were sympatheic opposing partners.  Nods to @Taomeow   A sympathetic opposing partnership?  Sound familiar?  Harmony?

 

---

 

Sal,

 

He was "of no will, of no heart, functioning as no spirit, mind and purpose".  He cleaved to her.  Not the other way around.  That''s very important.  They did not cleave to each other.  

 

Biologically, bro, One was pointy.  The other was not.  Tab-A >>> Slot-B.  But he was the one which was submissive to her.  Yes, they were of one heart, functioning as one spirit, mind, and purpose.  You're not wrong.   But they were approaching that unity in two completely different ways.  

 

He was 100% empty of will.  She was 100% willful.  Combined they are, yes, "of one will, of one heart, functioning as one spirit, mind and purpose", but, not because they were the same.  It's because they were sympatheic opposing partners.  That''s harmony.  For someone into mantras, I understand if harmony is not... on your mind.

 

Edited July 7 by Daniel

[Daniel]

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

oh hell, i was partly wrong and right on that one I'll admit it

 

there's hope for us both

[Daniel]

8 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Is «friend in India» more authorative then britannica?

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Star-of-David

 

Is the document translated there?

 

You have no clue what we're talking about, do you?

[Nungali]

9 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Please everyone, take a look at the bullshit that is being posted by Nungali.  The man flip-fllops in two consecutive posts.  First he says tthe pentagram iis egyptian,

 

Nah .  Thanks for posting the evidence, now everyone can see how you work ;

 

 

NN asked where the pentagram first shows up  ... I said Egypt .  I also said  that is where the Jews got it from , as  they got a LOT of stuff from Egypt .   I am talking about a pentagram  and assuming any pentagram that jews used , if they did use it .... as that is what we where talking about , pentagrams ... me and NN talking .  YOU interfered and confused it all, or are trying to confuse it all

 

 

then he flip-slops in the very next post to correct me because I implied it came from egypt as well.

 

 

Then I showed proof that what you referred to as a pentagram  ( when you and others where clearly talking 'star of david with six points - hexagram ) of solomon  was a medieval  hermetic grimoire  'spell' / talisman .

 

 

Hermetics are greek.  ~shakes my head~  The man is cuckoo for cocoa-puffs.  Nungali go back the esoteric forum.  You're acting like a jackass.

 

And hermetics are not even  Greek !   OMG what a mess Daniel .

 

If anything  they are Egyptian after the God Hermes' , which was one influence ; Egyptian knowledge and synthesis  , it included Greek philosophy but also some Judaism and  Zoroastrianism via 'Magi' and many other sources . It was centered for a while in Alexandria . You must have heard of the libraries there . Ships coming into this busy port from across the world had to hand in their books for copying to be lodged in the library . After the decline of Alexandria the knowledge moved to Harran in Syria which became the center of hermetic knowledge  .  Then when Muslims came they had the choice of  converting everyone  ( too hard ) , putting them to the sword  ( too many ) or having them show they where 'people of the book' and had a valid prophet . The Muslims decided  the prophet part was best solution  ( 'prophet' being a pun on Jizra tax ) . They got accepted and their knowledge of  maths, astrology, alchemy, medicine , etc entered the Islamic world . Later  that along with a new influx of neo-Platonism entered Europe   ( along with stuff like Arabic grimoires that had the pentagram of solomon in it ) .

 

what an embarrassment for you !  All you originally had to do was   go

 

" Oops I meant a hexagram not a pentagram . "

 

- but you just could not bear to do that could you ?

 

- unless you REALLY dont know the difference between the jewish star of david and the seal of solomon ?

 

Now  ,  you can retract your insults or  you can report yourself to the moderator .  

 

[Nungali]

28 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

wow, you really are confused.  whatever definition you're using Nungali, it's shared by very few, perhaps ... only you.

 

So bringing snakes into chuch with jesus cross on the wall, holding them up and singing and dancing with them   ??? 

 

As I said it depends on ones definition of what worship is .

 

You are really scrapping the barrel here .

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

This is what I was referring to.  Also please refer to the wikipedia screenshot.  Either 5 or 6.  5 is a seal, closing.  6 is connection to everything.  Binding a demon would be with the pentagram.  Speaking with animals, would be perhaps the hexagam.  So, they're very different, actually.  The pentagram is more accurately understood as the seal of Solomon.  But, if you prefer a compromise.  We're both right and neither of us is wrong.

 

 

 

More on this subject:

 

"THE INTERLACED TRIANGLES

22 June 2019 / Comments

Mahatma Letter – Number 59, Received London about July, 1883.

Does your B.T.S. know the meaning of the white and black interlaced triangles, of the Parent Society's seal that it has also adopted? Shall I explain?—the double triangle viewed by the Jewish Kabalists as Solomon's Seal, is, as many of you doubtless know the Sri-antara of the archaic Aryan Temple, the “mystery of Mysteries," a geometrical synthesis of the whole occult doctrine. The two interlaced triangles are the Buddhan-gums of Creation. They contain the " squaring of the circle," the “ Philosophical Stone," the great problems of Life and Death, and—the Mystery of Evil. The chela who can explain this sign from every one of its aspects—is virtually an adept. How is it then that the only one among you, who has come so near to unravelling the mystery is also the only one who got none of her ideas from books? Unconsciously she gives out—to him who has the key—the first syllable of the Ineffable name ! Of course you know that the double triangle—the Satkiri Chakram of Vishuu—or the six-pointed star, is the perfect seven. In all the old Sanskrit works—Vedic and Tantrik—you find the number 6 mentioned more often than 7—this last figure, the central point being implied, for it is the germ of the six and their matrix. It is then thus . . .

—the central point standing for seventh, and the circle, the Mahakdsha—endless space—for the seventh Universal Principle. In one sense, both are viewed as Avalokitesvara, for they are respectively the Macrocosm and the microcosm. The interlaced triangles—the upper pointing one—is Wisdom Concealed, and the downward pointing- one—Wisdom Revealed (in the phenomenal world). The circle indicates the bounding-, circumscribing quality of the All, the Universal Principle which, from any given point expands so as to embrace all things, while embodying the potentiality of every action in the Cosmos. As the point then is the centre round which the circle is traced—they are identical and one, and though from the standpoint of Maya and Avidya—(illusion and ignorance)—one is separated from the other by the manifested triangle, the 3 sides of which represent the three gunas—finite attributes. In symbology the central point is Jivatma (the 7th principle), and hence Avalokitesvara, the Kwan-Shai-yin, the manifested “ Voice " (or Logos), the germ point of manifested activity ;—hence—in the phraseology of the Christian Kabalists "the Son of the Father and Mother," and agreeably to ours—" the Self manifested in Self—Yih-Sin, the “ one form of existence," the child of Dharmakaya (the universally diffused Essence), both male and female. Parabrahm or “ Adi-Buddha " while acting through that germ point outwardly as an active force, reacts from the circumference inwardly as the Supreme but latent Potency. The double triangles symbolize the Great Passive and the Great Active ; the male and female ; Purusha and Prakriti. Each triangle is a Trinity because presenting a triple aspect. The white represents in its straight lines : Gnanam —(Knowledge) ; Gnata—(the Knower) ; and Gnayam—(that which is known). The black—form, colour, and substance, also the creative, preservative, and destructive forces and are mutually correlating, etc., etc."

 

Edited July 8 by old3bob

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

So, you have actually encountered snake worship in Satanism ?

 

That's not the point. There are many ex setanists of a much higher ranking than yours sharing their experiences about satanism. So it's your word against theirs. As far as I'm concerned, their statements have the same amount of weight as yours, if not much more than yours. 

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Again, depending on definitions of 'worship' I have seen more Christians 'worship' snakes ;

 

Careful what you call a christian. Satanists are everywhere, even in religious groups talking respectable positions such as a priest/pastor. For example, the pedophiles among christian pastors are legit satanists using kids for their rituals. 

 

They are in politics, in music industry, in prominent businesses, in child trafficking, in wars. Like Ukraine is a good example. Zelensky legit hired a satanist Marina Abramovic to be the ambassador of Ukraine war. A LEGIT SATANIST! It couldn't get more obvious than that of what they're doing. That war is just a blood sacrifice to satan. 

 

 

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

You commented  " Yea but it's about making the entire world your family. "   The indigenous viewpoint is man is part of the family of animals . He is not seen as superior or dominant over them , or even as 'separate' . However it is realized he DOES have certain different powers and to be a responsible 'family member' he must use them wisely and respectfully, or they might run out of control *as they have ) .  In this regard he is 'master of animals '  . The old cave art shows a man in animal costume dancing , doing a ceremony to affirm his  hope  to have a successful hunt  but to respect the law and ritual required about the way he does it .

 

Dancing animal master is a type of primitive human 'logus ', the 'macrocosmic man'  ....  the 'archetype of man ' , Adam Kadamon , etc .

 

 

It's rare that a human would be assigned to watch over the animal kingdom. There are other forces that take care of that. The only purpose a man has is to align himself with the will of Love and the proper assignment and destiny unfolds thereafter naturally. 

Edited July 8 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

a den of vipers?  no such thing?

 

Even terrorists collaborate. That's not what I mean by the spirit of brotherhood, spirit of service, spirit of love. 

Edited July 8 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

they were sympatheic opposing partners.  Nods to @Taomeow   A sympathetic opposing partnership?  Sound familiar?  Harmony?

 

---

 

Sal,

 

He was "of no will, of no heart, functioning as no spirit, mind and purpose".  He cleaved to her.  Not the other way around.  That''s very important.  They did not cleave to each other.  

 

Biologically, bro, One was pointy.  The other was not.  Tab-A >>> Slot-B.  But he was the one which was submissive to her.  Yes, they were of one heart, functioning as one spirit, mind, and purpose.  You're not wrong.   But they were approaching that unity in two completely different ways.  

 

He was 100% empty of will.  She was 100% willful.  Combined they are, yes, "of one will, of one heart, functioning as one spirit, mind and purpose", but, not because they were the same.  It's because they were sympatheic opposing partners.  That''s harmony.  For someone into mantras, I understand if harmony is not... on your mind.

 

 

I like your interpretation here

 

You say "He was 100% empty of will.  She was 100% willful" 

 

It's possible to call that an attachment if you play with words in a certain way. But the phenomena of surrendering your will and becoming one with someone else in perfect coherence, it's quite a stretch to call that an attachment imo. 

Edited July 8 by Salvijus

[Nungali]

35 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's not the point. There are many ex setanists of a much higher ranking than yours

 

Sorry, what ?    Much higher ranking than my  what  ???

 

 

35 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

 

 

sharing their experiences about satanism. So it's your word against theirs. As far as I'm concerned, their statements have the same amount of weight as yours, if not much more than yours. 

 

I see ... so you are saying you have read accounts of satanists saying that .  fair enough .  I dont  source that particular 'material' , I sourced people that still where satanists .

 

  I am sure you have had read a first 'few hand accounts' of ex-satanists that turned to Jesus and became saved and they are now recounting their stories to their new congregations  ... and in 'sensationalist ' books . I read one of them ;

 

 

 

You can read all about  the author here , if you are not familiar with him

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Warnke

 

 

Quote

 

Careful what you call a christian. Satanists are everywhere, even in religious groups talking respectable positions such as a priest/pastor. For example, the pedophiles among christian pastors are legit satanists using kids for their rituals. 

 

I have heard about this too .  But never seen the evidence for 'satanic ritual abuse ' .   Sexual abuse ?  Certainly !   Sexual abuse of a particularly 'spiritually treacherous ' * type  ?   certainly !

 

* in that these children where supposedly able to turn  to them for spiritual instruction and help .

 

But I dont blame anyone for calling those types 'Satanists .'

 

As far as 'satanic ritual abuse'  claims , you can read more about that here .

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

 

However one thing we need to note is the difference between 'western Satanism' and nasty 'African witchcraft'  ; there is definitely  evidence of some 'ritual' abuse there , but its mostly a type of localised  bad 'folk'  (black ) magic .

 

 

Quote

 

They are in politics, in music industry, in prominent businesses, in child trafficking, in wars. Like Ukraine is a good example. Zelensky legit hired a satanist Marina Abramovic to be the ambassador of Ukraine war. A LEGIT SATANIST! It couldn't get more obvious than that of what they're doing. That war is just a blood sacrifice to satan. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8 by Nungali

[Salvijus]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

But never seen the evidence for 'satanic ritual abuse '. 

What kind of satanist are you then? joking... I guess we're just exposed to different things then. But I would say, if one does a little bit of investigation into it and not just listen to what wikipedia says at face value, you will come across some really thought provoking and disturbing accounts/storis that would challenge any skeptic's mind. At least that's my experience. Everyone will have their own view on this matter and that's fine. 

 

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

However one thing we need to note is the difference between 'western Satanism' and nasty 'African witchcraft'  ; there is definitely  evidence of some 'ritual' abuse there , but its mostly a type of localised  bad 'folk'  (black ) magic .

 

I'd be warry of satanism regardless of what continent it comes from. Maybe tibetans are an exception because of how much the spirit of bodhidharma has infiltrated the whole tradition. The dark spirits that were roaming that land and the land itself was subdued by the Padmasambhava to serve dharma. Everything there is done in the spirit of service and love all the time. And somehow they made it work. But any witchcraft done without the spirit of bodidharma as the foundation, without the spirit of Christ, is almost guaranteed to go south eventually and corrupt your soul. 

 

Edited July 8 by Salvijus

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

It's possible to call that an attachment if you play with words in a certain way. But the phenomena of surrendering your will and becoming one with someone else in perfect coherence, it's quite a stretch to call that an attachment imo. 

 

It's a special case.   Attachment to detachment and nothing else.  

 

He was 100% full of will to be 100% empty of will. 

 

It's absolutely 100% singular focused intention directed towards doing the other's will which requires significant will-power.

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

the double triangle viewed by the Jewish Kabalists as Solomon's Seal,

 

I'd like to find a Jewish Kabalist who themself confirms this as opposed to others, outsiders, making assumptions about what Jewish Kabalists believe.

 

It doesn't change that the hexagram was in use in the Hindu religion, nor its legitimacy as a point of syncretism and agreement between the two mystical traditions.

 

Edited July 8 by Daniel

[old3bob]

um, I quoted instead of saying that myself,  (see quotation marks) Anyway anyone can make what they want of it.

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

It's possible to call that an attachment if you play with words in a certain way. 

It's attachment to detachment. 

 

 

Yes, that's what i had in mind.  

Edited July 8 by Salvijus

[Taomeow]

14 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

they were sympatheic opposing partners.  Nods to @Taomeow   A sympathetic opposing partnership?  Sound familiar?  Harmony?

 

---

 

 

Yes,  yin and yang opposites/partners together (are required to) create harmony, but I wasn't following this particular discussion so I don't know what they have to do with it, or with satan.  

666 by the way is a taoist symbol that means "extreme  yin."  It's no more satanic than 999, "extreme yang."  Together they are balanced.  Flip them around and one turns into the other.  Meow. 

 

[Daniel]

Just now, Taomeow said:

Yes,  yin and yang opposites/partners together (are required to) create harmony, but I wasn't following this particular discussion so I don't know what they have to do with it, or with satan.

 

Thank you, I'm not sure how much explanation is interesting for you on this branch of the conversation.  In brief: there is a linguistic curiosity which is obscured by the English translations of the Eden story.   Discussing this has lead down a winding road where it was proposed that Adam and Eve in the consummation of their marriage ( end of Genesis 2 ) was an act of unity, in the form of hearts, minds, bodies acting in unison.  Their will was one and the same.  I proposed an alternative which was not two acting in unison, but instead the two were acting in harmony with one another.

 

The connection to satan is coming from the word chosen, int he original Hebrew,  to describe the serpent at the beginning of Genesis 3.  It's the same word being used to describe the manner in which Adam and Eve were engaging with each other:  "Ahrum".  Prior to English translations, lacking chapters and verses, this word repeated would have been obvious to any reader paying attention.  Word repetition is common method for bringing emphasis to a word in this ancient text.  The Hebrew reader, or story teller, would certainly see it.  An example from this specific story is the original Hebrew words which are translated as "surely die".  If you eat from that tree, you will "surely die".  In Hebrew this is expressed as the word for death, more or less, repeated twice.  So, there is a connection made between the manner which the Adam and Eve were together and this serpent which is the avatar for "satan".

 

If Adam and Eve were acting in harmony, not in unison, and, the serpent was acting in the same way, then, the implication is that the serpent is also a member of a sympathetic yet opposing, harmonious partnership.

 

Then zooming out, big picture, the entire Hebrew Bible can be read through this lens as a treatise on harmony and discord where even the discord is part of a grand plan which is harmonious, healthy, and good, even though bad things happen, even though satan exists, etc...  It's pure optimism.   And that's precisely how Abraham, the father of Judaism, is described in the stories.  It's almost comical.  In fact, it's literally funny.

 

Abraham:  "Sure Abimelech, take Sarah, she's my sister.... kinda"

 

Abraham:  "They took my brother, Lot.  Hah!  I've got 300 men.  I can take those other 4 armies."

 

Abraham: "No problem God, just a little nip and a tuck of my most sensitive regions, no anesthetic? no problem!  I'll do it, presently."

 

Abraham:  "Of course Sarah, Ismael was jesting with Isaac.  You want him gone?  He's gone, he'll be fine.. in the desert."

 

Abraham:  "Yes God, Make an offering of Isaac?  It's fine.  Whatever happens on that mountain, I'm sure of it!  We'll go and return together."

 

---

 

@Taomeow, So, my goal, in this thread, was to help @NaturaNaturans open his mind to the possibility that even things that look bad, like "satan" are not really what they appear to be.  Even and especially in the Hebrew Bible.  Everything can be viewed in the Hebrew Bible from different points of view which contribute to an over-arching teaching, ( literally "the Torah" ) about harmony, partnerships, relationships, and connections.  It's a similar teaching that I find much more elegantly and simply stated in the DDJ and practiced by Daoists.  Yes, we Jews are taking the long road and winding road to get there.  But, at least it's been memorable.

[NaturaNaturans]

Daniel, stop tagging me. In done. If you continue ill report a lot of Your posts. I basically never report, but this is madness

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

 

Yes, that's what i had in mind.  

 

Detachment in isolation is self-defeating.  

 

It's the same with freedom. Freedom in isolation is self-defeating.   

 

Freedom cannot exist in isolation; freedom needs to be enforced.  If not, then individuals will use their freedom to enslave and oppress.  Satan is being created because God wants to grant freedom.  Satan, ultimately, at the highest most expansive level, is the Spirit of Freedom.  It is the root and source for freedom in all its forms.   How this freedom is formed and expressed by human hands is what objectively determines evil or good. 

 

Because freedom cannot exist in isolation, it must be pushed down.  It must be put in a "box" called "the law".  And because of this, it, the Spirit of Freedom, will always and forever be rising.  If it's not rising and striking at God, it will cease to be.  The Absolute, the Source of ALL, God, whichever name is ascribed to it, permits it.  God permits its rising and striking and nourishing itself off of Godliness even though it is not directly permitted.  It's necessary.  God permits the serpent to rise up, cross multiple boundaries, into forbidden territory, and strike directly at God's back.  Sinking it's teeth, and feeding off what is not intended for it.  God allows this, because it's necessary for a material world to exist.

 

This is what Jesus was teaching, on a deeper level, regarding turning the other cheek.  All the great teachings are like this.  They are true in particular, in that time and place, literally, "turning the other cheek".  But it's also true on a deeper level.  In general, and in the heavens, in the spiritual realms.  It's gospel truth.  It's true, and it's true.   It's Truly-true. Amein v'Amein.  Jesus is quoted as saying this phrase, I think, well over 100 times in the book of John.  In English it's sometimes translated as "verily".  But the original Greek is faithful to the Jewish imperative, and writes it phonetically, correctly, "Amein v' Amein".  You can find it in the Hebrew bible.  Numbers.  Sohtah ritual.  Also in Deuteronomy.  The Heavens and the Earth are the witnesses:  Amein v'Amein.

[Daniel]

9 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Daniel, stop tagging me. In done. If you continue ill report a lot of Your posts. I basically never report, but this is madness

 

That's what the ignore feature is for.

 

You want to bury your head in the sand?  Go ahead.  You want to make work for the moderators?  Do as you will.

[Daniel]

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

probably means you dont know .

 

It's impossible to know for sure where it came from.  Agnosticism is rational.  Gnosticism is a farce.

 

You don't know what you don't know.  It's absolutely true.

 

Edited July 8 by Daniel