Who or what is "satan"?

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

You then asked him 'The Jewish record ?

 

It doesn't matter... You and I both gave the same answer.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

what will Daniel do now  

 

Judaism is my knowledge base.  I declared it as a qualifier.   I didn't make a universal assertion, because, I don't know what I don't know.  I knew its approx. origin in the Jewish record.  So I shared that information.

 

I was asked a question.  I answered it the best way that I could without over-reaching outside the area of my expertise.

 

Edited July 10 by Daniel

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

Let it go

 

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It doesn't matter... You and I both gave the same answer.

 

No, that doesnt matter , what does matter is you have been dishonest .

 

 

Quote

 

 

Judaism is my knowledge base.  I declared it as a qualifier.   I didn't make a universal assertion, because, I don't know what I don't know.  I knew its approx. origin in the Jewish record.  So I shared that information.

 

red herring ..... nice try though

 

Quote

 

I was asked a question.  I answered it the best way that I could without over-reaching outside the area of my expertise.

 

 

No, its clear from the post on the last page  exactly what you did .  and its very telling you can not address that .

 

Now we see its clear you where never going to give an answer  on the thread subject , all you did was  'Daniel around '   so much everyone else left , now  its time for me to go as well .

 

Toodle-ooo .

 

.

Edited July 10 by Nungali

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

what does matter is you have been dishonest .

 

believe what you want

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

and its very telling you can not address that

 

I address what you write, when it is coherent, and dignified.  I choose to converse with the Nungali the Man.  Not Nungali the jackal, not the Nungali the hornet.  Not Nungali the two-year-old.

 

Edited July 10 by Daniel

[Cobie]

@Nungali you just got a big compliment, “two-year-old”.  He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant (含德之厚 比於赤子 han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3, DDDJ, Ch. 55)

 

 

Edited July 10 by Cobie

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@Nungali you just got a big compliment, “two-year-old”.  He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant (含德之厚 比於赤子 han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3, DDDJ, Ch. 55)

 

 

 

Infants don't act like a two-year old.

[Daniel]

@Cobie,

 

How would you translate DDJ 30?

 

... 善有果而已，不敢以取強。果而勿矜，果而勿伐，果而勿驕。果而不得已 ...

 

It's not a two-year old, is it?

 

Edited July 10 by Daniel

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Nungali you just got a big compliment, “two-year-old”.  He who has in himself abundantly the attributes (of the Dao) is like an infant (含德之厚 比於赤子 han2 de2 zhi1 hou4 , bi3 yu2 chi4 zi3, DDDJ, Ch. 55)

 

 

 

Thankyou Cobie  .......    ( now you are going to be the next target      )     have fun .

[Nungali]

... and dont forget

 

 

 

[Cobie]

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Thankyou Cobie …

You’re welcome. 

 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

Take a look at the eyes of Lusifer in this amazing painting:

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Take a look at the eyes of Lusifer in this amazing painting:

 

wow.  great find.  thank you.  yes.  the eyes produce a very specific, yet almost ineffable, feeling in my heart.  what is that?  betrayal?  but not ordinary betrayal?  what is it?

 

and then, I scroll down.... bam!  that hit me hard.  awesome. love-it.

 

Edited July 17 by Daniel

[NaturaNaturans]

17 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

wow.  great find.  thank you.  yes.  the eyes produce a very specific, yet almost ineffable, feeling in my heart.  what is that?  betrayal?  but not ordinary betrayal?  what is it?

 

and then, I scroll down.... bam!  that hit me hard.  awesome. love-it.

 

Yeah Id say betrayal as well. Loads of emotions really, great art

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Yeah Id say betrayal as well. Loads of emotions really, great art

 

On further reflection.  Perhaps he's making a plan?  And that plan is also very painful to consider? 

 

So, maybe, it's:  betrayal + the realization of what he is up against.

[Cadcam]

There is the biblical Satan, and the esoteric one. The biblical Satan works for God. He tests and tortures man. Another version of Satan has him fallen and disgraced, but yet God does not destroy him. He roams the earth with his fellows luring man away from God, and inspires them to act against man. In the new testament he is known as the prince of the air and has power over this world until Christmas returns to correct this place.

[Cadcam]

Essentially mystics and philosophers and artists want to describe and define life and God. The world is beautiful yet nature is dangerous,  and so is man. We want to know what kind of creator would make it this way and why we are here, so they invent stories and myths to explain it. Take it all with a grain of salt, for it is all invented, and if based on reality, enhanced with myth. Basically the world is imperfect and can't be all good, or at the very least, is prone to corruption. 

[Yang]

I know EXACTLY who Satan is and over the next few months im going to SHOW you exactly who satan is.

 

Hi,

 

Im Yang  buckel your seat belts and hold on You are gonna love my content Ive returned to blow everyone's mind with 100 % raw truth regarding  " CHRIST " ( no not jesus christ , just CHRIST. ) Im going to use advanced polarity ( yin and yang's universal language ) Jesus isnt Christ . Never was . CHRIST is another word for CHRYSTAL as in Chrystal clear.  We cant see things that are clear now can we? . We see through clear in the same way we see though a sheet of glass. Can you see our creator ? can anyone ? YES and im going to show you so you can see our creator yourself.

 

CHRIST is our creator, the same creator that created everything and everyone everywhere.  Satan is earths outer sun . Christ is inner earths central SUN. The CS is the creator  Satan is the destroyer.  They are polar opposite in the same way yin and yang are polar opposites. create / destroy +/-  

 

In Chinese Yin means negative and yang means positive. I use the symbols +/- because well, after a while I just get tired of using the words . I use male and female too . Males are the + polarity and females are the - pole . Im referring to gender organs , not personalities or male and female attributes in general . SO dont take offense ladies, you are just as relevant and males.

 

Im also going to show you the FULL body of Christ, not just tell you . SHOW YOU . Anyone can talk smack, but without any kind of reference to back it up , its just fluffy smoke and mirrors. Im going to SHOW YOU .

 

 

[Ajay0]

On 6/28/2024 at 1:44 AM, Daniel said:

@NaturaNaturans,

 

Friend,  who or what is satan? 

 

I think it is the Zoroastrian religion with its dualistic concepts of light and darkness that may have influenced Judaism and the rest of the other Abrahamic religions with similar concepts of dualism. 

 

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zoroastrianism

 

Quote

 

Due to its great antiquity, Zoroastrianism was tremendously influential on the history, culture, and art of Persia, as well as on the development of the Abrahamic religions. According to scholars, Zoroastrianism was the first religion to believe in angels, a day of judgment, a Satan figure, and an ongoing battle between forces of light and darkness in the cosmos. These ideas later influenced the theological development of Judaism (and, by extension, Christianity and Islam).

 

 

Angra Mainyu in Zoroastrianism could be the antecedent of the Satan in the Abrahamic religions. 

 

[Ajay0]

 If I may say so, imho, the so-called Angra Mainyu and Satan in the Abrahamic systems stands for the untamed or untrained mind cited in eastern religious philosophies.

 

As per eastern religious philosophy, the mind is considered to correlate with Maya/Mara.

 

The nature of the raw mind is to tend to the negative, as per eastern religious philosophy. Hence training of the mind is emphasized to overcome these defects and ensure the mind becomes an asset instead of a liability.

 

It is to be noted that in the Gatha, or primary Zoroastrian scriptures, the prophet Zarathustra does not mention any evil spirit. The enemy of the divine order is considered as "the Lie" ,  an abstract concept that is impersonal.

 

 It possibly denotes the same meaning as falsehood or delusion in the Dharmic religions.

 

The satan-like evil spirit of  Angra Mainyu seems to be a later development.

 

As per the article, Angra Mainyu can also be conceptually spoken as 'destructive mind' or 'malignant mentality' , similar to that of the dharmic interpretation.

 

It is possible that the prophet similarly meant Angra Mainyu to be the 'untamed mind', which was later personified or anthropomorphized as an evil spirit of sorts and probably the antecedent to the Abrahamic Satan.

[Cadcam]

Well yeah, the question is that couldn't a creator control the production of evil, and destroy it when it arises? 

 

Personally I think man is a little too lofty in its thoughts that we blame our own evil on God.

[Giles]

How the Devil Got His Horns - A Diabolical Tale

 

 

BBC documentary.

 

Art historian and critic Alastair Sooke reveals how the Devil's image was created by artists of the Middle Ages. He explores how, in the centuries between the birth of Christ and the Renaissance, visual interpretations of the Devil evolved, with the embodiment of evil appearing in different guises - tempter, tyrant, and rebellious angel.

 

Alastair shows how artists used their imaginations to give form to Satan, whose description is absent from the Bible.

 

Exploring some of the most remarkable art in Europe, he tells the stories behind that art and examines the religious texts and thinking which inspired and influenced the artists.

 

The result is a rich and unique picture of how art and religion have combined to define images of good and evil.

 

[Nungali]

On 8/2/2024 at 1:36 AM, Cadcam said:

There is the biblical Satan, and the esoteric one. The biblical Satan works for God. He tests and tortures man. Another version of Satan has him fallen and disgraced, but yet God does not destroy him. He roams the earth with his fellows luring man away from God, and inspires them to act against man. In the new testament he is known as the prince of the air and has power over this world until Christmas returns to correct this place.

 

 

[Nungali]

20 hours ago, Yang said:

I know EXACTLY who Satan is and over the next few months im going to SHOW you exactly who satan is.

 

Hi,

 

Im Yang  buckel your seat belts and hold on You are gonna love my content Ive returned to blow everyone's mind with 100 % raw truth regarding  " CHRIST " ( no not jesus christ , just CHRIST. ) Im going to use advanced polarity ( yin and yang's universal language ) Jesus isnt Christ . Never was . CHRIST is another word for CHRYSTAL as in Chrystal clear.  We cant see things that are clear now can we? . We see through clear in the same way we see though a sheet of glass. Can you see our creator ? can anyone ? YES and im going to show you so you can see our creator yourself.

 

CHRIST is our creator, the same creator that created everything and everyone everywhere.  Satan is earths outer sun . Christ is inner earths central SUN. The CS is the creator  Satan is the destroyer.  They are polar opposite in the same way yin and yang are polar opposites. create / destroy +/-  

 

In Chinese Yin means negative and yang means positive. I use the symbols +/- because well, after a while I just get tired of using the words . I use male and female too . Males are the + polarity and females are the - pole . Im referring to gender organs , not personalities or male and female attributes in general . SO dont take offense ladies, you are just as relevant and males.

 

Im also going to show you the FULL body of Christ, not just tell you . SHOW YOU . Anyone can talk smack, but without any kind of reference to back it up , its just fluffy smoke and mirrors. Im going to SHOW YOU .

 

 

I hope you can deliver what your  'motor-mouth'  claims  ...  last guy that could ....

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

I think it is the Zoroastrian religion with its dualistic concepts of light and darkness that may have influenced Judaism and the rest of the other Abrahamic religions with similar concepts of dualism. 

 

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Zoroastrianism

 

 

Angra Mainyu in Zoroastrianism could be the antecedent of the Satan in the Abrahamic religions. 

 

 

I think it is significant that early Zoroastrianism  (  before it got to Iranian area , ie. in  'Margiana ' ( now Afghanistan , supposedly Zoroaster's  territory ) the term 'Mainyu' refers to 'quality of mind' ... the polarity exists inside our mind ; the ability to have 'good thoughts;' or bad ones  ( which lead to good or bad actions )  it seemed to be an early 'science of the mind, and its workings and how that is linked to behavior . later revisionism seems to have personified / deified concepts .

 

Angra is negative 'spenta' is positive , the idea was to cultivate a 'spenta mainyu '  .

 

However , yes , this personified concept seems to have been the version that survived  and passed on into the Abrahamic stream or religions .:

 

How the mind works ; 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 If I may say so, imho, the so-called Angra Mainyu and Satan in the Abrahamic systems stands for the untamed or untrained mind cited in eastern religious philosophies.

 

 

I made the above post before I read this .

 

 

Excellent analysis IMO !

 

let's look at a few points :

 

16 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

 

As per eastern religious philosophy, the mind is considered to correlate with Maya/Mara.

 

'Mainyu ' is  '  the spiritual existence, is the co-existent dual opposite of the physical existence, gaetha.

' When we 'tune into' that, take it on personally, it is  ' mano' ;  " Vohu Mano, the high mind (creation was caused by a divine thought) ".  However when reading a LOT about mainyu ... many times it is clear that is referring to what we would call 'mind' .

nature of the raw mind is to tend to the negative, as per eastern religious philosophy. Hence training of the mind is emphasized to overcome these defects and ensure the mind becomes an asset instead of a liability.
 

Another way to look at it is via the process of initiation  ( a significant aspect of Zoroastrianism ) . Basically and generally initiation is a process of turning a 'wild animal' into a human social creature ; one is taught the value of giving up certain personal aims and ambitions , in balance with what one gains from being in a regulated cooperative society .  It is a 'sublimation of the Id' .  This process can also be internal, as you outlined above .

 

Like ancient Zoroastrian society  having more sexual equality , so does the system today ; girls and boys undertake initiation together  (in  some other societies  eg. indigenous , this would be considered shocking )

 

 

It is to be noted that in the Gatha, or primary Zoroastrian scriptures, the prophet Zarathustra does not mention any evil spirit. The enemy of the divine order is considered as "the Lie" ,  an abstract concept that is impersonal.

 

Their society was based on truth telling, sincerity and keeping your word and reputation , this probably comes from a pre literate stage  when contracts   only existed verbally . It is also common in some other cultures  that are recenbtly preliterate ; eg. when I am staying in 'Aboriginal Camp '  ; one of the 4 main laws  I have to keep ; 'Dont lie '  (hard for a white fella  ) .

 

 It possibly denotes the same meaning as falsehood or delusion in the Dharmic religions.

 

The satan-like evil spirit of  Angra Mainyu seems to be a later development.

 

Yep .... it seems common that deep concepts get simplified and personified over time , in a few religions , I guess that appeals to the 'masses' ?

 

As per the article, Angra Mainyu can also be conceptually spoken as 'destructive mind' or 'malignant mentality' , similar to that of the dharmic interpretation.

 

It is possible that the prophet similarly meant Angra Mainyu to be the 'untamed mind', which was later personified or anthropomorphized as an evil spirit of sorts and probably the antecedent to the Abrahamic Satan.