snowymountains Posted June 29 1 hour ago, Maddie said: Your question was about the snake being equated to Satan which is what my answer was in reference to. Do you have a quote or a link ? Does NT discuss the snake ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted June 29 (edited) 59 minutes ago, snowymountains said: Do you have a quote or a link ? Does NT discuss the snake ? Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out — that serpent of old called the Devil and Satan, who deceiveth the whole world. He was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." -KJV Edited June 29 by Maddie 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 29 I never knew why that book was included in NT ? I mean, we dont even know who wrote it . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted June 29 42 minutes ago, Nungali said: I never knew why that book was included in NT ? I mean, we dont even know who wrote it . We don't know who wrote most of the books of the New testament lol 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted June 29 and there is still reading between the lines... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted June 29 (edited) imo the 7 churches of the Book of Revelation are the 7 chakras, John is describing his experience of opening his chakras. Edited June 29 by Cobie 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted June 29 13 minutes ago, Cobie said: imo the 7 churches of the Book of Revelation are the 7 chakras, John is describing his experience of opening his chakras. That's an interesting opinion but he never explicitly says that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
old3bob Posted June 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Maddie said: an interesting opinion but he never explicitly says that. Cobie, that's along the lines of what Edgar Cayce said many decades ago and has a book on it...I was once a member of their organization that had headquarters in Virginia. Don't know what they have now? Edited June 29 by old3bob 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tommy Posted June 30 God good and Satan evil? Like light and dark. One needs the other to define themselves. Nothing arises alone and by themselves only. Something else always comes with it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 30 7 hours ago, old3bob said: Cobie, that's along the lines of what Edgar Cayce said many decades ago and has a book on it...I was once a member of their organization that had headquarters in Virginia. Don't know what they have now? He isnt the only one . It was a bit popular with the post Victorian occultists , when they crossed over into Yoga ; eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Henry_Allan_Bennett It even made it into some initiation rituals . 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 (edited) On 6/28/2024 at 7:59 AM, Maddie said: It's believed that "Satan" the adversary came about when the Jews were in exile in Persia and came into contact with Zoroastrianism with the dual good and evils gods. The dates don't add up. You'd need to review the the Avestas and compare them to the older Zoroastrian texts to see what I mean. The Persian religion was adapting over time. They borrowed from Judaism and the others, not the other way around. The trend is clear when looking at their texts in chorological sequence. There was no singular "Satan" in Zoroastrianism, just like there was no single monotheistic God in Zoroastrianism until the Jews went into exile there. Not before. And then post Christianity... there emerges a divine savior in their theology... Originally, if I recall, ( I haven't read the Avestas in probably 6 years, it was pre-covid, for sure ) they had Devas, I think they were called. One of them, the enemy of Zoroaster was called "The Big Lie", if I recall. That's the one which is assumed to be the source of the Christian "Satan". And then, there's an assumption, by many that the Christian Satan is the "Satan" of Judaism. It's not. The situation with the Persian source theories is that their coming from academics who LOVE the Persian religion. So, they are trying to prove that it is significant. Also, academics love to kick Judaism. We're everyone's favorite scape-goat. We claim to be different from the others, but, the others don't like this. "You're just like us, Jew, you're just like us. Stop being so... you know... Jewish." If folks would just let us, Jews, define ourselves, accept our identity as we choose to identify ourselves. Our world, as Jews, would be so much easier. Hopefully you can see the analogue I'm trying to make. Edited June 30 by Daniel 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 On 6/28/2024 at 10:28 AM, NaturaNaturans said: Isnt that pretty much the same? Hell no, bro. That's the point that needs clarity right away. Satan is NOT evil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 On 6/28/2024 at 10:36 AM, Maddie said: if the question had been "what is evil" then that would be a bit more encompassing. Satan and evil are two totally different concepts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 23 hours ago, Maddie said: Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out — that serpent of old called the Devil and Satan, who deceiveth the whole world. He was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." -KJV Uuuuuuh-huh. In the book of revelations? How many serpents are there? In the Torah how many serpents are there? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 On 6/28/2024 at 10:44 AM, Maddie said: the scholarly understanding... ...is bogus. Academics. The problem there is no one has the balls to stand up to their teacher and say: "That's wrong and here's why." They want their diploma. They want to join the ivory tower club. It's a game. Accuracy is not actually valued as much as people ( outsiders ) tend to assign to them. Errors are permitted because their peer-review process is deemed to be inerrant. I'm exaggerating regarding that inerrancy, but, once something is published in academics, people think it MUST be correct. Then they site it, and site it, and site it... pretty soon the error has inertia and nothing can challenge it. If you need examples, recall what happens anytime I try to correct someone false conceptions which they "heard somewhere was Academic". The truth is, most of this stuff comes from YouTube videos which are "reporting" that an Academic said, X,Y,Z. And even if they did actually find something written by an Academic, Academics do not live, eat, and breathe Judaism. They enjoy making discoveries. And the more novel and/or scandalous the discovery the more they enjoy it. "Hey, Jew, did you know you're practicing Zoroastrianism... hahaha". The Academic expert most cite is Doyle, if I recall. Mary Doyle? Anyway. I've read large sections of her book. She makes so many mistakes regarding Judaism, it's ridiculous. People, Academics, don't know our religion. But they think they're experts. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 17 hours ago, Tommy said: God good and Satan evil? Nope. Common misconception. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 20 hours ago, old3bob said: and there is still reading between the lines... ... which is inherently inaccurate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 On 6/28/2024 at 11:01 AM, NaturaNaturans said: Sooo zoroastrianism -> dualism -> God vs. devil? Not originally. It was polytheistic with many gods and devils. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daniel Posted June 30 (edited) On 6/28/2024 at 7:50 AM, NaturaNaturans said: The problem is that I dont find any objectivity in good and evil OK. Sorry it took me a while to return here, this Sunday. There are two, very important foundational concepts which are needed for knowing who/what is "Satan" in all its forms from its manifestations here and now in and among the material realm as well as it is existing in the nearly infinite spiritual realms extending all the way back to the source, the one and only, which is referred to as "The Most High". 1) You've got this already. Satan is not evil. That's something that Christianity came up with in order to make things simple. But, if one reads the gospels carefully, I think it's apparent that Jesus understood what I intend to share with you. Jesus is Jewish. So, it makes sense that Jesus would be teaching and preaching Judaism. Albeit, it would be Jesus' version of Judaism. So that's it. The first piece of the puzzle is simply abandoning the "Satan is evil, obviously" assumption that most people hold to religiously. That is not it. You're already doing that, or at least you have a head start. However, friend, if you cannot figure out that Rape is objectively evil. Something is clearly wrong. Seek help. Professional help. Your prior enlightenment experience has scrambled your mind. I've mentioned this before. About Rape. But not this strongly. I had hoped your confusion was a phase and you'd work it out. Professional help, dude. If you cannot objectively label Rape as evil, that's a red flag. A big one. I hope this will be the last time this "objectivity problem" is raised. OK? I won't talk about it, if you won't talk about it. It's a distraction. But I feel obligated to direct you to mental health care professionals, for your own well being, as your friend, when I see something like this. 2) OK, this is the second foundational concept. This one is difficult. But. If it can be held in thought. Consistently, the entire remaining conversation will go quickly, easily and smoothly. If not, it will be herky-jerky like a new driver on a stick-shift ( manual transmission ) if you know what I mean. Bro. Clear your mind with me, OK? Let's do this together. ~Deep-breath~ OK. Good. Every "thing", here and now, in the material realm can be divided into two and only two very general categories: Objects and Events. OK so far? Objects <------- What is it? Events <-------- What is happening to it? That's it. This is why nouns and verbs are the fundamental building blocks of all languages. Words are powerful. Objects <------- What is it? = NOUN Events <-------- What is happening to it? - VERB So far so good? Pretty easy, right? OK. Now, ~deep-breath~ Ask yourself, I am asking myself, "What is a "thing" if there is nothing material?" Without matter? What's left? Every "thing" = ALL Objects + ALL Events, right? If there is no matter, nothing material, what happens to the equation above? Can an Object exist without matter, without any material? No. It can't. The implication here, is that beyond the material realm, there are no objects, there are only events. Only "happenings". It's best to using the present-progressive conjugation. It really helps, I promise. Happenings. Present-progressive. INGs. OK. So... What is "Satan". Really? Spiritually ( beyond the material realm ). It's something which is happening. Present-Progressive, always-and-forever, just like any other spiritual entity. And... it's not Evil. I'm going to leave it here. To allow for questions and to allow these ideas to settle. Blessings to you, Edited June 30 by Daniel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted June 30 19 hours ago, old3bob said: … that's along the lines of what Edgar Cayce said … Didn’t know that. Thanks for the info. Good to know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted June 30 (edited) 12 hours ago, Daniel said: Academics. The problem there is no one has the balls to stand up to their teacher and say: "That's wrong and here's why." They want their diploma. They want to join the ivory tower club. … Imo the same happens with academic ‘translations’ of the DDJ. Edited July 1 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted June 30 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Daniel said: However, friend, if you cannot figure out that Rape is objectively evil. Something is clearly wrong. Seek help. Professional help. Your prior enlightenment experience has scrambled your mind. I've mentioned this before. About Rape. But not this strongly. I had hoped your confusion was a phase and you'd work it out. Professional help, dude. If you cannot objectively label Rape as evil, that's a red flag. A big one. I hope this will be the last time this "objectivity problem" is raised. OK? I won't talk about it, if you won't talk about it. It's a distraction. But I feel obligated to direct you to mental health care professionals, for your own well being, as your friend, when I see something like this. You are being dishonest again Daniel, and objectively misrepresnting me. But yes, I preger terms as «messed up,» and «disgusting and disturbing,» to evil. Like this passage: Samuel 18:25-27 New International Version 25 Saul replied, “Say to David, ‘The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.’” Saul’s plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines. 26 When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king’s son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed, 27 David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage. Disgusting and disturbing for sure. Evil? Not to you I assume, so not objectively so. Israels treatment of palestinians? I would say it is evil, but again, subjective Edited June 30 by NaturaNaturans 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted June 30 1 hour ago, Daniel said: They enjoy making discoveries. And the more novel and/or scandalous the discovery the more they enjoy it. "Hey, Jew, did you know you're practicing Zoroastrianism... hahaha" Maybe it was a compliment 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted June 30 18 minutes ago, NaturaNaturans said: … Israels treatment of palestinians? I would say it is evil … I have reported this, as is imo politics. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NaturaNaturans Posted June 30 4 minutes ago, Cobie said: I have reported this, as is imo politics. It is. Is that not allowed? I just think ive given our Friend the benefit of the doubt a few to many times by now. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
