Who or what is "satan"?

[Dainin]

"Serpent at the gates of wisdom. Where do you belong?

Wisdom cannot be transmitted. It keeps you hanging on

Do you really serve the Devil If it's all God's plan?

Good and evil need each other. Honey I'm your man"

Edited July 4 by Dainin

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It's not for me.  It's for our mutual friend who is struggling.  Are you not going to share information from the aboriginal mythology with him regarding the rainbow-serpent?

 

Sure, and I do and have ... but we dont need you to get involved  .

 

He is rather capable of asking me himself ya know .

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

What else?

 

That should be enough .

 

Work on that one before immediately asking for another   .

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Daniel said:

@Nungali,

 

Do the aboriginal peoples fear or blame all serpents?

 

Is this for you or are you asking for NN again ?

 

Aboriginal people, like all people,  show variety . We used to have hundreds of cultures here . And within that they are individuals -  Some fear snakes others do not, some have various snakes as their totems , they are all different .  I dont know what you mean by 'do they blame all serpents ' . ... blame them for what ?

 

Do they learn from them? 

 

Of course . Aboriginal people learnt their ways from observing all the animals .

 

It sounds like they respect them, and you do too? 

 

All animals should be respected .

 

That would be the reason you distinguish between the python and the others?

 

Eh ? Going past the confusion you just created ....    The reason I am happy to catch a python , which is not  venomous  as opposed to a non python which might be venomous is the venomous snake's their ability to bite and inject venom .,

 

 

 

 

 

[NaturaNaturans]

“… Lucifer was perhaps the one who best understood the divine will struggling to create a world and who carried out that will most faithfully. For, by rebelling against God, he became the active principle of a creation which opposed to God a counter-will of its own. Because God willed this, we are told in Genesis 3 that he gave man the power to will otherwise. Had he not done so, he would have created nothing but a machine, and then the incarnation and the redemption would never have come about. Nor would there have been any revelation of the Trinity, because everything would have remained One for ever.”

Jung (1942)[3]

[NaturaNaturans]

“ [in]… the Christian reformation of the Jewish concept of the Deity: the morally ambiguous Yahweh became an exclusively good God, while everything evil was united in the devil…. Thanks to the development of feeling-values, the splendor of the ‘light’ god has been enhanced beyond measure, but the darkness supposedly represented by the devil has localized itself in man. This strange development was precipitated chiefly by the fact that Christianity, terrified of Manichaean dualism, strove to preserve its monotheism by main force. But since the reality of darkness and evil could not be denied, there was no alternative but to make man responsible for it. Even the devil was largely, if not entirely abolished, … We think that the world of darkness has thus been abolished for good and all, and nobody realizes what a poisoning this is of man’s soul….[12]

[NaturaNaturans]

@Daniel you still havent covered Job for us

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Sure, and I do and have ... but we dont need you to get involved 

 

I deferred you since you two seem to have developed a friendship and perhaps, the point I'm making would be better rec'd from someone he trusts.

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Some fear snakes others do not, some have various snakes as their totems , they are all different .  I dont know what you mean by 'do they blame all serpents ' . ... blame them for what ?

 

for being dirty and deplorable and causing problems... etc.  I know it seems like a silly question, because, the aversion to ALL serpents is just a foolish, imo, as having an aversion to all forms of satan.  

 

Your friend seems to have an unhealthy unjustified attitude towards all serpents.  And he had invoked prevailing attitude among many Europeans as the reason for his conclusion. I was hoping that you would contribute positively in the form of granting us, the readers of this thread, all of us, the opportunity to get a glimpse of the aboriginal mythology to help expand all of our world-view regarding serpents, serpent myths, and serpent symbols.

 

If you're unwilling, to do so, here in the public forum, or simply because you don't want me to be asking you questions about ... stuff you should readily know about.  It's fine.  I'll do it myself.

 

@NaturaNaturans, I see you've replied here quite a bit.  Hopefully I have time to read and respond tonight: PDT, America.

 

Edited July 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

Oh no, I Get the concept. Scapegoat.

 

It's more than a scapegoat.  The blame-game is a tactic for manipulation.  It's establishing common ground on the basis of fabricated, false, or assumed culpability of a large general category.  It creates social cohesion, and also creates a false dilemma.  The larger the false dilemma, the more urgency is produced in the ones being manipulated.

 

Does that sound familiar?  Creating a false dilemma?  The need for salvation, because of the sin in the garden?   The ones who aren't interested in this salvation are under the power of the evil satan/serpent?  They're the ones.  They're at fault for everything that's wrong with the world. They wouldn't even accept Jesus.  They're evil and they're everywhere... hiding.  Controlling things.  And they're so sneaky....  thieves...

 

That's the blame-game.

 

But, there's nothing inherently wrong with serpents.  People keep them as pets.  They're really cool.  Some are dangerous.  They key is learnning which ones are dangerous.  Right?

 

 

Edited July 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

“… Lucifer was perhaps the one who best understood the divine will struggling to create a world and who carried out that will most faithfully. For, by rebelling against God, he became the active principle of a creation which opposed to God a counter-will of its own. Because God willed this, we are told in Genesis 3 that he gave man the power to will otherwise. Had he not done so, he would have created nothing but a machine, and then the incarnation and the redemption would never have come about. Nor would there have been any revelation of the Trinity, because everything would have remained One for ever.”

Jung (1942)[3]

 

Please restate this in your own words?  I'm not sure what parts of this are significant for you.

 

Edited July 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

while everything evil was united in the devil

 

Did you see this?  It says that when Christianiity reformed Judiasm it united everything evil in the devil.

 

That means prior to Christianity, everything evil was not united in the devil.

 

Are you ready to set aside the assumption that all forms of satan are disgusting, dirty, thiefs, liars, manipulators,  burrowing in the dirt, or what ever negative prejudices are popular in Europe?

 

You're of course free to have any opinion aboout anyone, regardless of whether or not is justtified.  I think it's useful, though, to be aware of my own affinties and aversions, then I set those aside for the sake of discussion, and/or for the sake of researching topics with a sort of clarity which is not possible while I am prejudging.

 

Can you set aside your prejudices, at least temporarily so that I can finish the thread and finish answering the question in the OP?  It's for the sake of mutual understanding.  If you hate the concept I'm presenting, that's fine.  But it would be nice to hear it without assuming it's wrong before I've finished the explanation.

 

Edited July 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, NaturaNaturans said:

@Daniel you still havent covered Job for us

 

Job?

 

OK.  That's actually a great idea.  I hadn't thought of that.  I propose that we finish with the derivation.  We come to a mutual undertanding on the definition of satan that I am intending to use.  Then, maybe we look at Job to see if it's a good fit.

 

Good idea?

Edited July 5 by Daniel

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I deferred you since you two seem to have developed a friendship and perhaps, the point I'm making would be better rec'd from someone he trusts.

 

I dont think our friendship needs you as a broker .

 

For being dirty and deplorable and causing problems... etc.  I know it seems like a silly question, because, the aversion to ALL serpents is just a foolish, imo, as having an aversion to all forms of satan.  

 

Okay , I can see we have a very different mind here to explain things to ;   Aboriginals would not deplore things for being 'dirty' .  That's just what happens . Last time I spent some time in camp with them  I was covered in  goanna grease, dirt, dust, campfire ash and charcoal dust .  I remember   telling my GF this later and she " MY God, what where they doing to you, was it some type of initiation? "        " Nah ... thats just how you end up  when living that lifestyle .  " And this camp was near a river for washing , imagine it with no river nearby .

 

Deplorable ?    They would not like that word,  I  think .  They certainly do not like venomous snakes that bite   people  and dogs. They might call them 'cheeky' .  A closer word to 'deplorable'  might be 'rubbish' ; ' That is a rubbish snake ' but in this case it means non-venomous .

 

Causing problems ? Sure , cheeky snake cause problems, he bite you, you might die, that could be a problem .  Yumbar / Ungud , creation serpent  made everything by dreaming it up .... is that a problem ? Not for them .

 

Your friend seems to have an unhealthy unjustified attitude towards all serpents.  And he had invoked prevailing attitude among many Europeans as the reason for his conclusion.

 

They live in Europe , I dont .  Many white people that live here  and many other people that migrated here  feel like that , but they are connected to an ideal or a recent 'other place' , often they dont tune in to 'where they are' , but 'carry location'  with them (in their mind ) .   Some of what you say seems the reverse , a type of Euro idealism  about snakes . Again there are two types , venomous and non venomous , I dont see why it is strange that people have an aversion to a venomous snake . Regarding the non venomous ones;  treat them like  gathering fungi  , if you cant properly identify them, stay away from all of them .

 

There was a thread here a while back , I cant remember but some African guy (name forgotten ) who I enjoyed talking to told a snake story , he posted a pic of a snake at a window and I asked what was going on .  Something like ; "  Me and two friends where sitting at table near window and one looked out and said ' That snake out there has seen us through the window and is heading this way .'   Nearly before they had time to react , it launched itself up to the window, was half way through ( and it was a very aggressive and deadly type - 'cheeky' ), one guy knocked the tilt window support out with  something so the window slammed down on the snake and the other grabbed a nearby machete   and started hacking at it as the snake tried to attack back . "

 

Now if I was sitting at that window , I would prefer  Matt at the table , instead of you  !  He would be grabbing the machete and you ?   You might be giving everyone a little discourse on something    

 

I was hoping that you would contribute positively in the form of granting us, the readers of this thread, all of us, the opportunity to get a glimpse of the aboriginal mythology to help expand all of our world-view regarding serpents, serpent myths, and serpent symbols.

 

If that is what you where hoping than you should ask for that , and not just use Matt's interest to try and 'draw me out ' .  I mean , just be straight and up front and you might get what you want .... it wasnt me that started this 'weaving game ' and 'I will tell you later', 'what's the rush '  stuff / Daniel  self entertainment .  We can do that ... or we can be clear ... up to you .

 

If you're unwilling, to do so, here in the public forum, or simply because you don't want me to be asking you questions about ... stuff you should readily know about.  It's fine.  I'll do it myself.

 

 

 

Stay tune folks, Daniel is going to educate you on  Australian Aboriginal mythology and snake lore

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Did you see this?  It says that when Christianiity reformed Judiasm it united everything evil in the devil.

 

That means prior to Christianity, everything evil was not united in the devil.

 

Are you ready to set aside the assumption that all forms of satan are disgusting, dirty, thiefs, liars, manipulators,  burrowing in the dirt, or what ever negative prejudices are popular in Europe?

 

You're of course free to have any opinion aboout anyone, regardless of whether or not is justtified.  I think it's useful, though, to be aware of my own affinties and aversions, then 

 

I set those aside for the sake of discussion, and/or for the sake of researching topics with a sort of clarity which is not possible while I am prejudging.

 

Can you set aside your prejudices, at least temporarily so that I can finish the thread and finish answering the question in the OP?  It's for the sake of mutual understanding.  If you hate the concept I'm presenting, that's fine.  But it would be nice to hear it without assuming it's wrong before I've finished the explanation.

 

 

 

 

" before I've finished the explanation."

 

Hey Matt , come back in about another 19 pages .

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

I dont think our friendship needs you as a broker .

 

I deferred to you.  That indicates respect and acknowledgement of a unique necessary quality.  In this case the necessary quality is trust.

 

On 7/4/2024 at 6:34 PM, Daniel said:

I deferred you since you two seem to have developed a friendship and perhaps, the point I'm making would be better rec'd from someone he trusts.

 

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

Hey Matt , come back in about another 19 pages .

 

 

Thank you for the details.  That will be very helpful, but, now is not the time.  Our friend is tired.  Contrary to popular belief, these are not easy concepts.  The bickering is not helping.  The world is a disaster.  Conflict is everywhere.  Our friend needs a break.  Everyone needs a break.  To rest, regroup, recover.  This is not easy.  What @NaturaNaturans (Matt ? ) is going thru is not easy.  Thinking big is hard work.  Seeing the world as it is, clearly, takes its toll.  A small amount of sensitivity goes a long way.

 

Matt?  candles, wine, bread, and song... it helps.  If you have access to them.

 

Sending Love and Peace,

 

-Daniel-

 

 

[Daniel]

On 7/4/2024 at 12:42 PM, Dainin said:

gates of wisdom

 

The gates of wisdom.... wisdom is a flowing brook.  Like a serpent.

 

On 7/4/2024 at 12:42 PM, Dainin said:

Serpent at the gates of wisdom

 

nice.

 

Proverbs 18:4 (KJV)

 

The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.

 

... it's an interesting relationship, isn't it?  What's forming the words of man's mouth?  What's flowing?  In the mouth?  It's the tongue.  It's the part on the human body most significant in correspondence with the Serpent in Eden myth?  And here it is being related to the flowing brook of wisdom.  And, the story explicitly states, it is, the most "Ahrum" ( ערום : translated often as "cunning" ) of the beasts-of-the-field.

 

Ahrum, though, it's rarely discussed, does not always mean "cunning".  In the verse immediately prior?    It is translated as "naked".  It's the famous verse, where Adam and Eve are together for the first time, husband and wife, and they were not ashamed . ( ~blush~ ) It's the same word.  Reading it in the original language, lacking chapters, on a scroll?  The repetition would be much more obvious.  If so, I'm asking myself, what is this word "Ahrum"  ( ערום )?  What does it actually mean?  I see the reish, the second letter, from the right, the curve.  That's the tongue.  It's coming from the ayin, the first letter on the right.  That's the vessel, the shell... the mouth? 

 

Why is this word  repeated this way, and yet so extremely divergent in translation?  What does it tell me about the serpent?  What does it tell me about Adam and Eve?  What is the correspondence?  What is the relationship? I feel like there's something important here.  I wonder what it is.  Sincerely.  I don't know the answer.

 

You've given me a lot to think about.

 

Thank you,  

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, Daniel said:

… Why … so extremely divergent in translation? …

Yes strange https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9D   
 

 

Edited July 6 by Cobie

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Daniel said:

Matt?  candles, wine, bread, and song... it helps.

 

It works.  Has nothing to do with Judaism.  It's just natural.

 

 

[Cobie]

@Daniel I think you are pathologising NaturaNaturans. 

 

 

Edited July 6 by Cobie

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Yes strange https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%9D   

 

I know who to ask.

 

@Salvijus,

 

What do you think of this  "Ahrum"?

 

.... now they were both "Ahrumim" ( Ahrum plural ), the man and his wife, but they were not ashamed.  Now the serpent was "Ahrum", more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"

 

What's Ahrum?  It's translated as "cunning" for the serpent and "naked" for Adam and Eve.  Originally the words were read from a scroll, no chapter breaks, not verse numbers.  It's not Chochmah ( Wisdom ), T'vuhan/Binah ( Understanding ), Not Daat  (Knowledge) .  That comes later, Genesis 4:1.

 

ערום

 

This is where I'm at:

Spoiler

1)  Ayin >> Reish >> Vav ( oo "descending") >> Final-Mem 

2)  Exclusion list

3)  Correspondence with Daat, maybe

4)  I haven't checked the Aramaic etymology, if I can find any

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

@Daniel Why are you pathologising NaturaNaturans? Does it give you a sense of superiority? Takes your focus away from your own problems? Just a grumpy mood today?

 

Couldn't be further from the truth.

[Nintendao]

13 hours ago, Daniel said:

Why is this word  repeated this way, and yet so extremely divergent in translation?  What does it tell me about the serpent?  What does it tell me about Adam and Eve?  What is the correspondence?  What is the relationship? I feel like there's something important here.  I wonder what it is.  Sincerely.  I don't know the answer.

 

Later on when the little dots were added to represent vowels/tones, some have pointed out that probably עָרוּם `aruwm (shrewd) was used in Gen 3:1, versus עָרוֹם `arowm (nude) in Gen 2:25. Vowels can make a big difference, for example a son might sin if their node were nude.

 

The NWT interestingly uses "cautious" for עָרוּם 

 

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

I know who to ask.

 

@Salvijus,

 

What do you think of this  "Ahrum"?

 

.... now they were both "Ahrumim" ( Ahrum plural ), the man and his wife, but they were not ashamed.  Now the serpent was "Ahrum", more than all the beasts of the field that the Lord God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God indeed say, 'You shall not eat of any of the trees of the garden?'"

 

What's Ahrum?  It's translated as "cunning" for the serpent and "naked" for Adam and Eve.  Originally the words were read from a scroll, no chapter breaks, not verse numbers.  It's not Chochmah ( Wisdom ), T'vuhan/Binah ( Understanding ), Not Daat  (Knowledge) .  That comes later, Genesis 4:1.

 

 

 

I would speculate it means disgraceful or unholy, unvirtuous, disconnected from God. 

 

Your spiritual status is sometimes reflected in the type of clothes you wear. There's an hiarchy of astral beings, each one at different level and development and position. When you wear no clothes it's a symbol for being at a low point, without any dignity or purity left in you. "Total trash" so to speak (sorry for the language ) 

 

Sometimes you can look at people and even if they wear clothes, you can still see their nakedness. Their spiritual nakedness. That means that person is living an unholy life. Is living in sin and iniquity. Not in alignment with the will and glory, virtue and purity of God. 

 

Now that same word is being used for a serpant. Why. Maybe because it's the most disconnected animal from the love of God. Completely cold-hearted. Exhibiting the least amount of virtue. Compared to bees that work hard in service and love to make honey for example until they tire and die in service to their queen. So a serpent becomes the perfect agent/vehicle for dark forces to use for their agenda. 

 

I'm just guessing here. I know there are lots of Naga worship going on aswell in different cultures. Honestly I'm deeply confused about the topic of serpents and what they stand for. 

Edited July 6 by Salvijus

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

 

Later on when the little dots were added to represent vowels/tones, some have pointed out that probably עָרוּם `aruwm (shrewd) was used in Gen 3:1, versus עָרוֹם `arowm (nude) in Gen 2:25. Vowels can make a big difference, for example a son might sin if their node were nude.

 

Awesome.  Thank you,

 

The little dot in Arohm is above the vav.  "vav-oh" = ascending. So the Adam-Eve encounter is some form of an ascension?

 

The little dot in Aruhm is in the center of the vav.  "vav-oo" - descending.  But, point of clairification: descending in Jewish mysticism is not down, it's inner.  The 6 cardinal directions, are left, right, forward, backward, inner, outer.  6 is a vav ( the sixth letter ), the vav is a hook... etc.  The 6th is tiferet, connecting in all directions.  That's the Jewish star.  The Magen David.  David's shield.  Six points connecting in all directions.  These are all teachings in Jewish mysticism.

 

Great find.

 

Quote

The NWT interestingly uses "cautious" for עָרוּם 

 

 

The JW's independent translation?

 

Edited July 6 by Daniel