Zen is not Buddhism, Zen is not meditation.

[adept]

Hi Folks.

I'll start by stating that I don't wish to denigrate anyones spiritual practice or tradition. All I'm offering is a viewpoint which differs from what we have been told about Zen. By Zen, I mean the Chinese Ch'an lineage, and not the bastardised version that found its way to Japan, Korea, and later the Western world. I'm only using the word Zen as it is what people are most familiar with.

 

I found this quote online which I think is a good analogy:

"Buddhism and zen both aim for the understanding of "how to not drown".

While Buddhism traditions teach how to build bridges and boats and find detours, zen teaches how to swim.

Buddhism wants to save you by cultivation, Zen teaches that there is nothing to be saved from, because it's all made up by yourself.

Buddhism propagates rules, precepts, vows and dogma, while zen is all about the understanding of your mind and its function."

 

About two decades ago I started to investigate the world of Zen. As we all do, I did some research online and acquired a lot of information.

Now and then though, I kept coming across statements which challenged my views. These statements weren't frequent. Just now and again I'd see them mentioned. They were "Zen is not Buddhism" and "Zen is not meditation". Searching out these topics wasn't fruitful but I kept the quotes in the back of my mind for future reference.

 

A lot of time passed. I'd been interested in other things but something was pulling me back to Zen. 

I wanted to know what Zen is. 

To be continued......

[adept]

In Buddhism there is a sequence of events and practices which supposedly lead one to awakening.

They are the 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.

In Zen there is no path, no practice, nothing to awaken to. 

 

"A special transmission outside the scriptures,

Not founded upon words and letters;

By pointing directly to your mind

It lets you see into your true nature and through this attain Buddhahood."

 

I started looking into the zen record, and what are more generally known as koans.

Over 1000 years of documented encounters and instructions.

In these writings are the recorded sayings of the zen masters, written down at the time. 

There are commentaries on these texts by other zen masters, and commentaries on these also.

There are no 'official' answers to these koans as is suggested in Zen (Buddhism).

There is no mysticism in zen. No ' special enlightened state '

It is here, now.

When you 'get it', you will know, without any lingering doubt whatsoever. 

It is sudden, and so simple that you don't understand how you didn't 'get it' earlier.

 

 

Mumonkan, Koan 19

'Ordinary Mind is the way'

 

Joshu asked Nansen, "What is the Way?"

"Ordinary mind is the Way," Nansen replied.

"Shall I try to seek after it?" Joshu asked.

"If you try for it, you will become separated from it," responded Nansen.

 

How can I know the Way unless I try for it?" persisted Joshu.

 

Nansen said, "The Way is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion; not knowing is confusion. When you have really reached the true Way beyond doubt, you will find it as vast and boundless as space. How can it be talked about on the level of right and wrong?"

 

With those words, Joshu came to a sudden realization.

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

Another view: Zen is not the denial of Buddhism, but the fulfillment of it. Zen is not presented apart from Buddhism, rather it is thoroughly imbued by it. Buddhism provides a context for Zen teaching, without which it cannot be revealed. 

 

On 7/11/2024 at 2:31 AM, adept said:

With those words, Joshu came to a sudden realization.

 

Followed by 30 years of practice. 

 

Nansen's teacher, Masu aka Baso tells us what ordinary mind refers to: 

 

Quote

The Way needs no cultivation; just prevent defilement. What is defilement? When with a mind of birth and death one acts in a contrived manner, then everything is defilement. If one wants to know the Way directly: ordinary mind is the Way! What do I mean by “ordinary mind?” [It is a mind] that is devoid of [contrived] activity, and is without [notions of] right and wrong, grasping and rejecting, terminable and permanent, worldly and holy. The [Vimalakīrti] scripture says, “Neither the practice of ordinary people, nor the practice of sages, that is the Bodhisattva's practice.” Just now, whether walking, standing, sitting, or reclining, responding to situations and dealing with people as they come: everything is the Way.

trans Poceski

 

Criticizing the later Hongzhou school, Zongmi writes: 

 

Quote

Hongzhou constantly says: “Passion, hatred, friendliness, and good are all the buddha nature. What distinctions exist?” This is like a person who just discerns that wetness from beginning to end is undifferentiated but does not realize that the merit of supporting a boat and the fault of overturning it are widely divergent. Therefore, even though that lineage is near to the gate of all- at- once awakening, it has yet to hit the bull’s-eye. In the matter of the gate of step- by- step practice [Hongzhou] makes the mistake of completely deviating from it.

trans Broughton

 

As the Xin Xin Ming states: 

 

Quote

Make the smallest distinction, however, and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart. 

trans Clark 

 

Of course, one is free to believe what one wishes. 

 

[Taoist Texts]

56 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

Criticizing the later Hongzhou school, Zongmi writes: 

 

Quote

Hongzhou constantly says: “Passion, hatred, friendliness, and good are all the buddha nature. What distinctions exist?” This is like a person who just discerns that wetness from beginning to end is undifferentiated but does not realize that the merit of supporting a boat and the fault of overturning it are widely divergent. Therefore, even though that lineage is near to the gate of all- at- once awakening, it has yet to hit the bull’s-eye. In the matter of the gate of step- by- step practice [Hongzhou] makes the mistake of completely deviating from it.

trans Broughton

he is not the one to talk;)

Quote

It was Zongmi's association with the great and the powerful that led to his downfall in 835 in an event known as the Sweet Dew Incident. A high official and friend of Zongmi, Li Xun, in connivance with Emperor Wenzong of Tang and his general Zheng Zhu, attempted to curb the power of the court eunuchs by killing them all. The plot failed and Li Xun fled to the Zhongnan Mountains, seeking refuge with Zongmi. Li Xun was quickly captured and executed and Zongmi was arrested and tried for treason. Impressed with Zongmi's bravery and honesty in the face of execution, the eunuch generals spared Zongmi.^[19][20]

 

[forestofclarity]

36 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

he is not the one to talk;)

 

 

Oh? Sounds like a pretty bad ass Zen master to me. 

 

Quote

Li Hsun managed to escape and fled to Mount Chung-nan, where he sought refuge with Tsung-mi, entreating him to shave his head and conceal him. Tsung-mi's followers intervened, however, and Li Hsun was forced to flee Ts'ao-t'ang ssu. He was soon apprehended and executed. Because Tsung-mi had given Li temporary sanctuary, the powerful eunuch Ch'iu Shih-liang (781-843) had him arrested and tried for treason. Under interrogation Tsung-mi admitted that he was aware of the plot but went on to defend his actions by claiming that the teaching of the Buddha enjoined him to save all who suffer no matter what their circumstances. He added that he did not care for his own life and would die with a clean heart. Tsung-mi's courage in the face of almost-certain execution apparently so impressed the eunuch generals that he was pardoned.

 

(from Peter N. Gregory, Tsung-mi and the Sinification of Buddhism)

 

Historical observation from the next page: 

 

Quote

The [care of the] dharma is entrusted to kings and ministers. If we made no connection with kings and ministers, how could the religion be made to prosper? Or are the Buddha's words about the influence of kings and ministers not true? The sentiment of men today is critical of anyone who is closely associated with kings and ministers. [This is because] they do not fully understand the purpose of those who are close to kings and ministers. If it were for profit and fame, then we should be grateful for their criticism. However, if the association is solely for the sake of the religion. how could that not be noble? Should one rather try to avoid petty criticism? Those who denounce him are merely jealous. 

 

But again, everyone is free to think as they wish. 

[Mark Foote]

On 7/11/2024 at 1:31 AM, adept said:

 

"A special transmission outside the scriptures,

Not founded upon words and letters;

By pointing directly to your mind

It lets you see into your true nature and through this attain Buddhahood."

 

 

 

Ch'an Slogans and the Formation of Ch'an Identity
 

Individually, the four slogans are found in works dating before the Sung, but they do not appear together as a four part series of expressions until well into the period when they are attributed to Bodhidharma in the Tsu-t'ing shih-yüan (Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs) in 1108. Even then, their acceptance was not without controversy. Mu-an, the compiler of the Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs, remarked contemptuously: "Many people mistake the meaning of 'do not establish words and letters.' They speak frequently of abandoning the scriptures and regard silent sitting as Ch'an. They are truly the dumb sheep of our school." In reality, three of the slogans- "do not establish words and letters"; "directly point to the human mind"; "see one's nature and become a Buddha"- were well established as normative Ch'an teaching by the beginning of the Sung. The status of the fourth slogan, "a special transmission outside the scriptures," as an interpretation of the true meaning of "do not establish words and letters" (pu li wen-tzu, literally "no establish words-letters") was the subject of continued controversy.
 

"Seeing one's nature" was an old idea in China that was promoted by Tao-sheng (355-434), a disciple of Kumarajiva. Drawing from Mahayana doctrine, Tao-sheng advocated the notion of an inherent Buddha-nature in everyone. The full phrase chien-hsing ch'eng-fo ("see one's nature and become a Buddha") first appeared in a commentary to the Nirvâna sûtra, in a statement attributed to Seng-lang prior to the T'ang dynasty. The slogans "do not establish words and letters" and "directly point to the human mind" became common parlance in Ch'an circles by the end of the T'ang period.
 

The first use of the phrase "a special transmission outside the scriptures" (chiao-wai pieh-ch'uan) that can be documented with historical certainty is in the Tsu-t'ang chi (Collection of the Patriarch's Hall), compiled in 952. The phrase is also included in a "tomb-inscription" of Lin-chi I-hsüan (?-866), attributed to Lin-chi's disciple, Yen-chao, appended to the end of the Lin-chi lu, the record of Lin-chi's teachings. The historical authenticity of this inscription as the work of Lin-chi's disciple is highly dubious, as the Rinzai scholar Yanagida Seizan has pointed out. The connection of the phrase "a special transmission outside the scriptures" with the Lin-chi lu (Record of Lin-chi) is highly suggestive, however, of a Ch'an identity that developed in the Lin-chi lineage during the Sung.
 

While the Lin-chi lu professes to be the record of Lin-chi's words and deeds as recorded by his disciples, the current form of the text dates from an edition issued in 1120. The beginning of the twelfth century is also the time when the slogan "a special teaching outside the scriptures" was mentioned in the list of Ch'an slogans attributed to the Ch'an patriarch Bodhidharma in the Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs, mentioned above. The association of this slogan with Lin-chi and Bodhidharma was the culmination of a process through which the identity of Ch'an was transformed by members of the Lin-chi lineage.

(from "THE DISPUTED PLACE OF "A SPECIAL TRANSMISSION" OUTSIDE THE SCRIPTURES" IN CH'AN", by Albert Welter,
Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Winnipeg; https://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/HistoricalZen/A_Special_Transmission.htm#:~:text=The first use of the,Hall)%2C compiled in 952.)

 

[Mark Foote]

When the Ch'an master Ta-chi of Chiang-hsi was studying with the Ch'an master Ta-hui of Nan-yüeh, after intimately receiving the mind seal, he always sat in meditation. Once Nan-yüeh went to Ta-chi and said, "Worthy one, what are you figuring to do, sitting there in meditation?

Chiang-hsi said, 'I'm figuring to make a Buddha."

 

At this point, Nan-yüeh took up a tile and began to rub it on a stone. At length, Ta-chi asked, "Master, what are you doing?"

 

Nan-yüeh said, "I'm polishing this to make a mirror."

 

Ta-chi said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?"

 

Nan-yüeh replied, "How can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

 

Ta-chi asked, "Then, what is right?"

 

Nan-yüeh replied, "When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?"

 

(from commentary on "The Lancet of Seated Meditation", "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, 1st ed., p 191--available on Terebess)

 

 

What does it mean, to "beat the ox"?  In a piece I wrote recently, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century explained--here's that explanation, and the rest of my write:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.
 

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)

 

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:
 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.
 

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.
 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:
 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(A Way of Living)

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:
 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.
 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.
 

Dogen continued:
 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…
 

(ibid)

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.
 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

("Take the Backward Step")

 

[Taoist Texts]

37 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century explained--here's that explanation,  

 

You are not your body,

thats what the famous teachers do. they say things that are so obviously false that their audience goes into a stupor and awe. You are not your body, black is white, war is peace. It is an old trick.

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats what the famous teachers do. they say things that are so obviously false that their audience goes into a stupor and awe. You are not your body, black is white, war is peace. It is an old trick.
 

 

 

Nisargadatta was only trying to point to the horse, not the cart.  So he left a little dung on the road...

How to get someone to focus on the placement of consciousness by necessity in the movement of breath--can't point to the movement of breath, can't point to the frailty in the structure of the lower spine:

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

 

 

My attempt:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(A Way of Living)

 

Whip the presence of mind to stay awake with the location of consciousness, even as that location shifts and moves, and discover that the activity of the body in the movement of breath can occur solely as a function of the free location of consciousness.  The cart moves automatically, as the horse shifts or moves.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27 by Mark Foote

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Nisargadatta was only trying to point to the horse, not the cart.  So he left a little dung on the road...

him being ignorant of Zen, his pointing is totally, 180 degrees is opposite of the truth. Because the real Zen is about the cart

so no, not little, but all of what he says

[Tommy]

There is an old saying to not to be focused on the finger pointing to the moon. When one hones in on Zen with its long and rich history. one is focused on the finger. Koans, breath meditations are all means to an end. It is all about setting right that which is within ourselves. We sit in meditation not to extinguish the self because there really is no self. Thoughts control us by us identifying with the thought. Thoughts become our identity. So, we sit and we let thoughts flow in and out without attaching ourselves to them. Soon, we learn to not identify with them. Not to attach ourselves to thoughts. We learn thoughts are a tool and not the identity. Thru grace we become our true self. We were never lost and we did not need to achieve it. It was there all along. Some even have moments when thoughts shut down. But, those moments aren't the goal. Sorry for the rant. 

[Mark Foote]

On 7/27/2024 at 10:28 PM, Taoist Texts said:

him being ignorant of Zen, his pointing is totally, 180 degrees is opposite of the truth. Because the real Zen is about the cart

so no, not little, but all of what he says

 

Where's the ? emoji...

[tao.te.kat]

>we learn to not identify with them. Not to attach ourselves to thoughts. We learn thoughts are a tool and not the identity. Thru grace we become our true self

 

That's pretty right, congratulations. Completly realizing the nature of mind is reaching absolute naturality and exhaustivity on that non-attachment to thoughts.

 

I cannot believe on true selfs or grace, but that's not that important. I would prefer causality and mind. Just that.

 

Edited September 6 by tao.te.kat

[doc benway]

On 7/10/2024 at 6:29 AM, adept said:

"Zen is not Buddhism" and "Zen is not meditation"

 

I disagree, and I agree. Just my limited perspective and I appreciate the OP.

 

Buddhism is a massive and complex beast that aspires to help all people who find their current condition unsatisfactory. 

Consequently it has developed many ideas, practices, teachings because different people need different approaches at different times in their lives. 

In most Buddhist lineages there is a path that is considered the "highest" or perhaps better said "most direct" path.

This is a path that eschews, or at least transcends, all of the complicated machinations and creations of mind and recognizes the mind's essence, or nature, as the fundamental source; what the Zen masters refer to as "ordinary mind." it is what is left when all of the mind's activity and content is allowed to release. We are never as much as a hair's breadth away from it and yet, it is rare for it to be recognized and realized as the path.

 

Once this "ordinary mind" is realized we know that there is nothing whatever to be done.

It is always already with us. This is why it is often said, doing nothing yet all is completed, leave it as it is, practice non-meditation, and similar sayings from all of the wisdom traditions' esoteric factions. It is the core of all of the great spiritual teachings. It is nothing special or unique and yet it is the magic of life and the source of all we experience.

 

So Zen is not Buddhism but Buddhism understands and teaches Zen to those whose karma is in alignment. Zen is not meditation, it cannot be captured in a word, a concept, or a practice and yet it is always there and, at least in dzogchen parlance, meditation means to continuously, and effortlessly, release the activity of the mind and remain fully connected to the mind's nature, the "ordinary mind," whether the mind is quiet or active. When sitting quietly on the cushion, this is called formal meditation. When remaining connected during all of life's activities, rewards, and challenges this is called informal meditation. 

[Giles]

15 minutes ago, doc benway said:

Buddhism is a massive and complex beast that aspires to help all people who find their current condition unsatisfactory. 

 

And, like Christianity,  Buddhism aquires, rebrands and repackages other systems.

 

Edited September 6 by Giles

[idiot_stimpy]

On 10/07/2024 at 8:29 PM, adept said:

Buddhism propagates rules, precepts, vows and dogma, while zen is all about the understanding of your mind and its function."

 

I disagree with the above.  A Zen Monk is under rules, precepts, vows and dogma also. 

 

Both look into the nature of mind. 

 

If you feel more attracted by Zen by all means follow that path if you think it fits better.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

 

And, like Christianity,  Buddhism aquires, rebrands and repackages other systems.

 

 

Arguably, as has every system that has been or will ever be… But what they are all pointing at remains as it is, unimputable.

[Giles]

Not really. There's a distinct difference between Brahamic religions and Abrahamic religions and, sadly, I've just seen one of my current "teachers" tying themselves into knots by attempting to fit what seems to be an "unimputable" Self-realisation into an Abrahamic framework.

 

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, Giles said:

Not really. There's a distinct difference between Brahamic religions and Abrahamic religions and, sadly, I've just seen one of my current "teachers" tying themselves into knots by attempting to fit what seems to be an "unimputable" Self-realisation into an Abrahamic framework.

 

 

It’s clear as day to me…. but what do I know?

🤣

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, doc benway said:

 

It’s clear as day to me…. but what do I know?

🤣

 

 

 

Edited September 6 by liminal_luke

[stirling]

On 7/10/2024 at 3:29 AM, adept said:

Hi Folks.

I'll start by stating that I don't wish to denigrate anyones spiritual practice or tradition. All I'm offering is a viewpoint which differs from what we have been told about Zen.

 

OK, then. 

 

Quote

By Zen, I mean the Chinese Ch'an lineage, and not the bastardised version that found its way to Japan, Korea, and later the Western world. I'm only using the word Zen as it is what people are most familiar with.

 

Failed in the second sentence!?!? As a Soto priest, I must say that I am a little disappointed.  Have you been reading ewk's posts on Reddit by any chance?

 

I think you will find most Soto and Rinzai priests study Ch'an with quite a bit of enthusiasm. What is understood about Zazen and Shikantaza meditation, which is that it is the actualization of enlightenment, fits perfectly with Cha'an for a good reason... it's where it comes from. 

 

Quote

I found this quote online which I think is a good analogy:

"Buddhism and zen both aim for the understanding of "how to not drown".

While Buddhism traditions teach how to build bridges and boats and find detours, zen teaches how to swim.

 

Or better still, Zen teaches that you are ALREADY swimming, and always have been. 

 

Quote

Buddhism wants to save you by cultivation, Zen teaches that there is nothing to be saved from, because it's all made up by yourself.

 

...including Soto and Rinzai...

 

Quote

Buddhism propagates rules, precepts, vows and dogma, while zen is all about the understanding of your mind and its function."

 

...or, more clearly, Zen is about just being with things as they are, and realizing that mind is not "I". 

 

Quote

They were "Zen is not Buddhism" and "Zen is not meditation". Searching out these topics wasn't fruitful but I kept the quotes in the back of my mind for future reference.

 

In a sense, this is true. In the same fashion, Dzogchen is not Buddhism either. Zazen and Dzogchen (Tibetan Buddhism) are just being, Buddhism is a methodologies and practices. A Buddha doesn't HAVE to meditate, meditation is practice that is already "just being", or enlightenment, whether we realize it or not. The practice of Atiyoga (Dzogchen) is considered the highest path in Tibetan Buddhism, as it is no path at all. 

 

Quote

A lot of time passed. I'd been interested in other things but something was pulling me back to Zen. 

I wanted to know what Zen is.

 

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have, though you might have to be satisfied by my "bastardized" version.

[ChiDragon]

On 7/10/2024 at 3:29 AM, adept said:

Now and then though, I kept coming across statements which challenged my views. These statements weren't frequent. Just now and again I'd see them mentioned. They were "Zen is not Buddhism" and "Zen is not meditation". Searching out these topics wasn't fruitful but I kept the quotes in the back of my mind for future reference.

FYI 禪(Zen) is a Budahhsm practice. Zen is not meditation, but Budahhism zazen is to practice Zen. Zen, mostly, is to find a peace of mind and seek for tranquality in life.

[Giles]

2 hours ago, doc benway said:

 

It’s clear as day to me…. but what do I know?

🤣

 

 

🤷🏻‍♂️😊

 

[doc benway]

22 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

🤷🏻‍♂️😊

 

 

One thing I've learned is that it is one thing to have an insight and another to put it into words and practice.

Yet another to share it with someone who does not have an appropriate frame of reference to easily understand.

Your "teacher" friend, could have had a deep and penetrating insight and still struggle to contextualize it and find it's proper place in their practical affairs and metaphysics. Insight is instantaneous but how it informs and manifests in our lives can play out in many ways over time, at least that has been my experience and observation. On the other hand, they may be trying to find a connection in admittedly disparate paradigms without that insight which would likely lead to a mess...

[Giles]

9 hours ago, doc benway said:

One thing I've learned is that it is one thing to have an insight and another to     put it into words and practice.

 

 

Yes. 😊

 

9 hours ago, doc benway said:

Yet another to share it with someone who does not have an appropriate frame of reference to easily understand.

 

Also agreed. 😊

 

9 hours ago, doc benway said:

Your "teacher" friend, could have had a deep and penetrating insight and still struggle to contextualize it and find it's proper place in their practical affairs and metaphysics.

 

I know. 😊

 

9 hours ago, doc benway said:

Insight is instantaneous but how it informs and manifests in our lives can play out in many ways over time, at least that has been my experience and observation.

 

I sense that we're still on the same page here. 👍🏻😊

 

 

9 hours ago, doc benway said:

On the other hand, they may be trying to find a connection in admittedly disparate paradigms without that insight which would likely lead to a mess...

 

That's not what I'm seeing.

 

My spiritual friend (a term that I thank you for helping me to refine/define 🙏🏻) , who is formally teaching me a profound and effective method of Taoist Alchemy, has attempted to fit (what appears to me to be their their first-hand direct knowledge of ultimate reality) into an Abrahamic Taoist/Buddhist paradigm.

 

However, this in no way diminishes the value of what is being taught to me for reasons that are quite possibly entirely obvious to you.

 

Hope that makes sense?

 

Namaste. 🙏🏻