The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Rebirthless]

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

For a serious Theravadin, his goal is very clear and singular - to reach Nibbana. There are no vague secondary goals, everything else is not nearly on the same level of importance. I know it's common to have "better rebirth" as a goal while claiming to be a Theravadin, but that's a much inferior goal than striving for Nibbana, a serious Theravadin would not have such a goal.

 

For a serious Neidanist, what is such a goal? To achieve Siddhis? What problem does that solve? One still goes up and down in Samsara after developing powerful Siddhis like dematerialization.

 

Here's an example of what I mean - a person who can enter 4th Jhana at will may go to the highest Rupa Brahma realm (except the top 5 layers, which are reserved for Anagamis only) after death and enjoy a life span of 500 Kalpas (each Kalpa is the age of the universe) of sublime bliss, but that's not really useful in the large scheme of things, because it doesn't last - he would fall back down again eventually, and 500 universe cycles is but a blink of an eye in this eternal game of Samsara.

 

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heaven. Yes, it's a realm filled with luxuries unfathomable to us humans, but it's only the second-lowest heaven, there are many higher Deva & Brahma heavens above it. But more importantly, as I mentioned above, even an existence in the highest Brahma heavens aren't really that desirable, let alone one in a Deva heaven.

 

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world, even the universe itself will end one day. Yes, some beings live extremely long lives - e.g. a being born into the highest Arupa realm (the 8th Jhana heaven of "neither perception nor non-perception") can live for 84,000 universe-cycles. That's mind-bogglingly long, but that's still not immortal. It will die and come back down to (often much) lower planes.

 

Or is the goal to achieve "spiritual growth"? That's a vague term to me. What exactly does that mean? Growth towards what end?

 

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice. I'm guess it's a popular to claim to have no goals especially in the Daoist traditions, due to the concept of "wu wei", but if a person has no goals, why even practice? 

 

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

Edited September 7 by roamthevoid
correction

[Antares]

The main goal is to nourish De. The more De you have the better you will become

[old3bob]

59 minutes ago, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

For a serious Theravadin, his goal is very clear and singular - to reach Nibbana. There are no vague secondary goals, everything else is not nearly on the same level of importance. I know it's common to have "better rebirth" as a goal while claiming to be a Theravadin, but that's a much inferior goal than striving for Nibbana, a serious Theravadin would not have such a goal.

 

For a serious Neidanist, what is such a goal? To achieve Siddhis? What problem does that solve? One still goes up and down in Samsara after developing powerful Siddhis like dematerialization.

 

Here's an example of what I mean - a person who can enter 4th Jhana at will may go to the highest rupa Brahma realm after death and enjoy a life span of 16,000 Kalpas (each Kalpa is the age of the universe) of sublime bliss, but that's not really useful in the large scheme of things, because it doesn't last - he would fall back down again eventually, and 16,000 universe cycles is but a blink of an eye in this eternal game of Samsara.

 

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heaven. Yes, it's a realm filled with luxuries unfathomable to us humans, but it's only the second-lowest heaven, there are many higher Deva & Brahma heavens above it. But more importantly, as I mentioned above, even an existence in the highest Brahma heavens aren't really that desirable, let alone one in a Deva heaven.

 

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world, even the universe itself will end one day. Yes, some beings live extremely long lives - e.g. a being born into the highest Arupa realm (the 8th Jhana heaven of "neither perception nor non-perception") can live for 84,000 universe-cycles. That's mind-bogglingly long, but that's still not immortal. It will die and come back down to (often much) lower planes.

 

Or is the goal to achieve "spiritual growth"? That's a vague term to me. What exactly does that mean? Growth towards what end?

 

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice. I'm guess it's a popular to claim to have no goals especially in the Daoist traditions, due to the concept of "wu wei", but if a person has no goals, why even practice? 

 

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

 

Have you looked into the Upanishads?  The "Self" does not have a lifespan, always was always will be, is not made or unmade;  thus is not a body, even a great one lasting for long cycles.  Anyway various bodies are fine for various realms like you say but still have various life spans.

Edited July 13 by old3bob

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

the same as buddhism

1 hour ago, roamthevoid said:

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

no they dont. unless you saw those with your own eyes.

1 hour ago, roamthevoid said:

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice.

at least they are honest . because neigong is a  marketing label with no concrete meaning

 

1 hour ago, roamthevoid said:

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world,

heaven is not "this world". and xian does mean immortal

仙    仙    xiān    immortal 《释名》：“老而不死曰仙。

 

1 hour ago, roamthevoid said:

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question,

its a good question with no easy answer for the most

45 minutes ago, Antares said:

The main goal is to nourish De. The more De you have the better you will become

huh? does this mean anything concretely?

[Antares]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

huh? does this mean anything concretely?

Why are you asking? Do you really want to know it?

[Cobie]

13 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

huh? does this mean anything concretely?

 

 虛心 ~> 德 

 

Spoiler

 maybe  I haven’t even read the thread, just TT post

 

Edited July 13 by Cobie

[Antares]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

虛心 ~> 德

not really

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, Antares said:

Why are you asking? Do you really want to know it?

yes i am telling you thats what i want, what i really really want

 

5 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 虛心 ~> 德 

 

seems like a loaded heart not an empty one;)

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes i am telling you thats what i want, what i really really want

but you have texts. you should know it better than me

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, Antares said:

but you have texts. you should know it better than me

you are exactly right. i do have my  texts and my achievements so of course i know better than whoever has nothing. but that was not my point. my point was that this

1 hour ago, Antares said:

The main goal is to nourish De. The more De you have the better you will become

is meaningless 

[Antares]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

is meaningless

I have already answered these questions in another thread not long ago. What's the point of talking about it again and again?

[Cobie]

29 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

… seems like a loaded heart not an empty one;)

 

  

 

Spoiler

德 <- 竹人十田心 [I got that from a Wiktionary page, can’t find it back now]

musical instrument made of bamboo | person | completion | work area | heart

I interpret that as: When the heart has been emptied, a person is like a ‘Rumi Reed Flute’. 

 

Edited July 13 by Cobie

[Antares]

Jean-Paul, what is your understanding of De?

[Taoist Texts]

14 minutes ago, Antares said:

Jean-Paul, what is your understanding of De?

my understanding is that of Daodejing 道生之，德畜之 meaning De is the same as Dao, just down the road. There is nothing else to it and De has nothing to do with neidan. Of course the dao de seminar sellers spew a bunch of garbage about de but they do that just to sell seminars.

[Antares]

I have no any relation to Dao De. You live in your fantasy world. You know nothing about neidan

[Antares]

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

De has nothing to do with neidan.

This is the "bottom". Please dont reply any of my posts. You are in my black list

[Antares]

By the way, Dao De Centre is the best you can find from what is available in the West. There are a few closed lineages as well, but it is extremely difficult to gain access to them. Understanding the meaning of neidan through texts alone is extremely challenging without a teacher. I would even say it's impossible

[Antares]

Jean-Pual, as far as i know your "teacher" is a lady who was banned on this forum. Is it true?

[Antares]

She said the same BS about WLP as you say. But which school does she represent? Just think about it of you are smart enough

[forestofclarity]

It seems to me that De is what spontaneously happens as one comes more into alignment with the Dao. Accordingly, I would expect that it appear during the process of reversal as a confirmation. 

 

I hear a lot of discussions about De but very few about (or displaying) the "lower" virtues such as benevolence, etc. which should presumably precede it. It seems people want to jump to effortlessness without having made any sort of initial effort. It reminds me of  long, rambling screeds about higher states of concentration. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

57 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

It seems people want to jump to effortlessness without having made any sort of initial effort. It reminds me of  long, rambling screeds about higher states of concentration. 

thats true. "we are all already enlightened" hehe.  we gotta go easy on them because having no destiny for real work, they still admire the result. their feelings are worthy of respect.

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I hear a lot of discussions about De but very few about (or displaying) the "lower" virtues such as benevolence, etc. which should presumably precede it

unfortunately nobody of the discussants can explain how exactly de or any other virtue bears on neidan. because they have no clue how exactly neidan works.

[Cobie]

21 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… Daodejing 道生之，德畜之 …

“道 生 之; 德 畜 之” dào shēng zhī ; dé chù zhī (start Ch 51)

 (imo)  Dao created you; virtue raised you. 

 

 

Edited July 14 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

14 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

unfortunately nobody of the discussants can explain how exactly de or any other virtue bears on neidan. because they have no clue how exactly neidan works.

 

True for me.  
 

 

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats true. "we are all already enlightened" hehe. 

I really don’t think “we are all enlightened”, so yes  

 

17 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

… their feelings are worthy of respect.

I don’t think so. Not all feelings are worthy of respect, some are worthy of 虛心 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

It seems to me that De is what spontaneously happens as one comes more into alignment with the Dao. Accordingly, I would expect that it appear during the process of reversal as a confirmation. 

 

Nothing can happen spontaneously. This is pseudo-esoteric nonsense spread by all kinds of esoteric gurus who are either simply profiting from gullible people or working for certain agencies.

The idea that we are all already enlightened refers to the primordial spirit, but it is too yin, so a person cannot feel it at all. It's like a candle - there's wax, flame, and light. Light cannot arise if you don't have wax. Try saying that a flame can burn by itself because everything around is fire. Every flame and light have a source. Even in the northern schools of Taoism, based on 'meditation,' there are methods of working with energy. Without energy, there will be no light of the primordial spirit. De (virtue) is the primary reason why light can appear.