The ultimate goal of Neidan

[forestofclarity]

16 hours ago, Antares said:

This is pseudo-esoteric nonsense spread by all kinds of esoteric gurus who are either simply profiting from gullible people or working for certain agencies.

 

Uh.... what? 

 

16 hours ago, Antares said:

Light cannot arise if you don't have wax.

 

Really? I was just sitting outside this morning and there was light everywhere. And I didn't have an ounce of wax. 

 

 

[Antares]

2 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Uh.... what? 

Where do you think the Theosophical movement, for example, originated from? Or "spirituality" in general, and New Age specifically, including things like qigong, modern yoga, and 'teachers' like Sadhguru, Osho, and Sai Baba? Did they all just arise randomly?

 

Quote

Really? I was just sitting outside this morning and there was light everywhere. And I didn't have an ounce of wax.

What sort of light you talk about? Maybe you just raised your energy to some degree with qigong or anything like that. Did you reach first level of daoist achievements which OP mentioned here?

[Sherman Krebbs]

On 7/14/2024 at 12:06 AM, Taoist Texts said:

because neigong is a  marketing label with no concrete meaning

 

I've seen this type of comment a few times on this site.  While the name neigong might be a marketing label, are the practices meaningless? Genuinely curious.  Where should one who does not understand Chinese go to learn a more authentic practice?

[Antares]

6 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

I've seen this type of comment a few times on this site.  While the name neigong might be a marketing label, are the practices meaningless? Genuinely curious.  Where should one who does not understand Chinese go to learn a more authentic practice?

He has no clue how neidan was transformed into neigong. There was specific time and place for this process. 

[Taoist Texts]

8 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

While the name neigong might be a marketing label, are the practices meaningless? Genuinely curious

neigong would be like, lets say a car mechanic tells you that you pay him upfront a $1000 and he tunes your car to run 'better". you ask how much 'better'? he shrugs: just better. you ask him: better when? he shrugs: sometime, may be 10 years, depends on how you drive too. you ask to see a tuned car: he shows you an ordinary car and claims it runs 'better' than before. same with neidan. so..a fool and his money are easily parted.

 

34 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

Where should one who does not understand Chinese go to learn a more authentic practice?

https://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Health-Thomas-Cleary-ebook/dp/B005P8E6BG

[Sherman Krebbs]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

https://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Health-Thomas-Cleary-ebook/dp/B005P8E6BG

 

Thanks for the reference!  I will check this out. 

[Sherman Krebbs]

28 minutes ago, Antares said:

He has no clue how neidan was transformed into neigong. There was specific time and place for this process. 

 

Not sure what he knows or does not (I for one am contented knowing very little), though I am interested in your perspective.   What is it about the practice of neigong is so different from other practices? Sorry to be dense.  My only exposure is watching a DVD from Jwing-Ming.

[Antares]

I definitely can't recommend any "DVD from Jwing-Ming". This is low quality qigong. No much benefit you can gain from it. Best option is to look for master of IMA,  taiji is good option. But it should be not yang or chen style, they were modified a lot and have nothing to do with the original version of it. Taiji itself is very fundamental neigong system.

I have not explored all Daoist schools, it is quite a challenging task  so I cannot speak definitively for all systems. I only tried a few methods from northern daoist neidan schools. But I can say that the foundation of the old taiji lies in the ancient Daoist Southern Method. Nowadays, it is rarely preserved, and it is practically absent in modern taiji, with rare exceptions. It would take a long discussion to talk about the differences between the Northern and Southern methods. However, in general, the Southern method is considered the oldest and most advanced. But it should be noted that it is difficult for a contemporary person to understand and practice it. Therefore, more often, people start with the practice of the Northern method or other auxiliary systems based on the principles of neidan, for heart purification. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to write long posts. But in general, the Southern method is based on the simultaneous cultivation of Xing and Ming, making it an ideal practice method. However, it is rarely preserved now, mostly remnants of such methods can be found, even in China. Therefore, the methods of the Northern Daoist schools, where they begin with "meditation" (Dazuo), are more widespread today. This is what many authors write about in books on Daoism. The old Southern alchemical method formed the basis of the original neigong method. To accurately answer the question about their differences, one needs to be fully acquainted with the old Southern method, which I am not. But the principles are the same as I was said, and they differ from the methods of modern Northern schools, where the initial focus is usually on the purification of Xin (heart), cultivation of Xing (primordial spirit) and partially Ming (life). I will not go into detail about what Xing and Ming are here; it would take too long. I suggest you search for information yourself. As for recommending books by Cleary, I would not. The translations there are inaccurate, and he lacks understanding of the methods. If we compare neigong with other practices like yoga, the difference is significant. In yoga, everything was deviated from the original path, and finding something genuine there is almost impossible. The same goes for Tibetan schools. There might still be something authentic in Tibet itself, but it is not accessible to us 

Edited July 15 by Antares

[forestofclarity]

5 hours ago, Antares said:

Where do you think the Theosophical movement, for example, originated from? Or "spirituality" in general, and New Age specifically, including things like qigong, modern yoga, and 'teachers' like Sadhguru, Osho, and Sai Baba? Did they all just arise randomly?

 

Are you part of a small, elite group who is privy to a truth that everyone else lacks? Is there an elaborate system of explanations setting forth how "things really are?" Is there a lot of talk about how everyone else is lost, a lot of "us" and "them" type talk?

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

https://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Health-Thomas-Cleary-ebook/dp/B005P8E6BG

 

Interesting that one of the presentations criticizes Yin Shih Tzu (who is quoted at length in the Charles Luk Chinese Meditation and has several translations floating around) for failing to "open the crown." 

 

[Antares]

33 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Are you part of a small, elite group who is privy to a truth that everyone else lacks? Is there an elaborate system of explanations setting forth how "things really are?" Is there a lot of talk about how everyone else is lost, a lot of "us" and "them" type talk?

I don't remember exactly, but it seems like I already asked you why you enter the Daoist section of the forum and demand that Daoists engage in all sorts of esoteric nonsense. Isn't that strange behavior? Read Daoist treatises. If you don't like them, then it's probably your personal problem. Or do you want Daoists to do what you want? That's very naive and foolish. Please stop writing such nonsense

[Taoist Texts]

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Interesting that one of the presentations criticizes Yin Shih Tzu ... for failing to "open the crown." 

yes it is ironic on many levels, not least the criticizer never achieving it himself, instead just regurgitating the WLP literature. Since you read the book here is a bonus for you, a passage  not included in the book, on one of the interviewees  in the book.

 

Quote

a lot of "us" and "them" type talk?

some of them want more pie, some of them want whole pie, but all they get is cool-aid

Edited July 16 by Taoist Texts

[Master Logray]

On 7/14/2024 at 3:32 AM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

 

Technically Neidan is the system to achieve reaching the Tao.   It is not an end by itself.   If you talk about theology, Taoist goals are very modest.   At most they claim to produce super humans, or meta human in modern or movie terms.   They are far from universe creator level.   The mutated or morphed humans are no comparison against the inborn or pure blood deities, whatever the names are.  

 

While Buddhists view the growth of a spirit in innumerable cycles, Taoist inner alchemy expects some results within this life and to have proof of it on the body, though it doesn't mean everyone reaching the heavenly immortal level.  

 

By the way, the term Neigong has only been coined less than 100 years ago by a fiction writer.  Its original meaning was to differentiate from the external body systems.  Normally Neigong are ancillary and supplementary exercises of martial arts, comprising multitude of exercises and massages etc.  But nowadays, sometimes it has become a marketing ploy as mentioned by Taoist Text.  There are XXYYZZ Neigongs to suit everyone and every purposes.  

 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

 

21 hours ago, Antares said:

Taiji itself is very fundamental neigong system.

I have not explored all Daoist schools, it is quite a challenging task  so I cannot speak definitively for all systems. I only tried a few methods from northern daoist neidan schools. But I can say that the foundation of the old taiji lies in the ancient Daoist Southern Method.

 

It sounds like people are mostly objecting to the somewhat nebulous term neigong, or maybe the teachers preaching it for profit, not necessarily any particular practice that might fall under that semantic umbrella.  The talk about the north and south methods are interesting too.  Also, I think you are right that understanding the true meaning of a text through a translation is really challenging.  Its like translating Shakespeare to Chinese and expecting the latter to understand the full artistic scope of the source. 

[Antares]

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

By the way, the term Neigong has only been coined less than 100 years ago by a fiction writer.  Its original meaning was to differentiate from the external body systems

Alright. The most important thing is the content, the process of development and transformation of neidan into IMA from a historical perspective. You could call this nei-jia.The distinction between "internal" (nei jia) and "external" (wai jia) styles in martial arts began to appear around the 17th century. And behind these processes stand daoists recognized as "immortals".  The history of this can be traced back to Bodhidharma.

[Master Logray]

15 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

It sounds like people are mostly objecting to the somewhat nebulous term neigong, or maybe the teachers preaching it for profit, not necessarily any particular practice that might fall under that semantic umbrella.  The talk about the north and south methods are interesting too.  Also, I think you are right that understanding the true meaning of a text through a translation is really challenging.  Its like translating Shakespeare to Chinese and expecting the latter to understand the full artistic scope of the source. 

 

There are 2 hurdles.  Translation from ancient to modern Chinese and from modern Chinese to English.   And meanings for some of the texts were not universally agreed even from centuries ago like Zhuang Zhi, the achieved person's breath is to the heel. 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

20 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 Its like translating Shakespeare to Chinese and expecting the latter to understand the full artistic scope of the source. 

 

There is a key difference. The Dao De Jing, for example, isn't creating a lofty fictional world in the mind of the author. Rather, it is describing a set of principles that apply very widely that one can verify for oneself. In other words, it can be a living text rather than a set of dead words. A lot of people argue about whether the DDJ is a political text, a cultivation text, a text about nature, etc, which misses the point. Universal principles apply... well... universally. 

 

20 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

not necessarily any particular practice

 

Eh, I don't know about that. One might argue that some may pass of qigong as neidan. They may be ineffective, they may work on some level, or they can be very harmful. But even regular meditation is like this, as is religion, politics, our thoughts etc. See DDJ 38. 

 

 

[Chang dao ling]

On 7/14/2024 at 1:02 AM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

Same with neidan. There are 5 types of immortals in Taoism. 

Ghost,human, earth, spiritual, celestial or golden immortals. Spiritual and celestial immortals escape from samsara . The famous 8 immortals achieved spiritual and celestial immortality. I think spiritual immortals equal to arhats in Buddhism. ( Just my opinion). 

[Chang dao ling]

On 7/14/2024 at 1:02 AM, roamthevoid said:

also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heave

Jade emperor alrady achieved celestial immortality before becoming jade emperor. After he succeeded by heavenly master of dawn he goes higher realms. 

Edited July 18 by Chang dao ling

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-07-15 at 8:32 PM, Antares said:

He has no clue how neidan was transformed into neigong. There was specific time and place for this process. 

What if it was the other way around? 

A specific time and place when neigong was grafted on neidan? 

 

Think of it, the core neigong methods are secret and not mentioned in classic texts, the core neidan methods are discussed at length in classic texts. 

 

Edit: And the neigongers seems to refer mostly to the sinew changing classic and the bone marrow washing classic rather than any of the texts that discuss neidan. 

 

Weird, isn't it?

Edited August 4 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Giles]

On 13/07/2024 at 9:32 PM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

For a serious Theravadin, his goal is very clear and singular - to reach Nibbana. There are no vague secondary goals, everything else is not nearly on the same level of importance. I know it's common to have "better rebirth" as a goal while claiming to be a Theravadin, but that's a much inferior goal than striving for Nibbana, a serious Theravadin would not have such a goal.

 

For a serious Neidanist, what is such a goal? To achieve Siddhis? What problem does that solve? One still goes up and down in Samsara after developing powerful Siddhis like dematerialization.

 

Here's an example of what I mean - a person who can enter 4th Jhana at will may go to the highest rupa Brahma realm after death and enjoy a life span of 16,000 Kalpas (each Kalpa is the age of the universe) of sublime bliss, but that's not really useful in the large scheme of things, because it doesn't last - he would fall back down again eventually, and 16,000 universe cycles is but a blink of an eye in this eternal game of Samsara.

 

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heaven. Yes, it's a realm filled with luxuries unfathomable to us humans, but it's only the second-lowest heaven, there are many higher Deva & Brahma heavens above it. But more importantly, as I mentioned above, even an existence in the highest Brahma heavens aren't really that desirable, let alone one in a Deva heaven.

 

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world, even the universe itself will end one day. Yes, some beings live extremely long lives - e.g. a being born into the highest Arupa realm (the 8th Jhana heaven of "neither perception nor non-perception") can live for 84,000 universe-cycles. That's mind-bogglingly long, but that's still not immortal. It will die and come back down to (often much) lower planes.

 

Or is the goal to achieve "spiritual growth"? That's a vague term to me. What exactly does that mean? Growth towards what end?

 

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice. I'm guess it's a popular to claim to have no goals especially in the Daoist traditions, due to the concept of "wu wei", but if a person has no goals, why even practice? 

 

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

 

 

Quote

The reason we do Qigong (is) to increase the volume, and heighten the frequency of our energy - and thereby cultivate ourselves.

 

- James MacRitchie -

 

 

 

Edited August 5 by Giles

[dwai]

For the OP - YOu might want to check out - 

 

[Giles]

On 13/07/2024 at 9:32 PM, roamthevoid said:

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

 

 

A more comprehensive answer:

 

Quote

 

On a personal level it is about health and well-being, relief from pain, suffering and illness, aging well, clarity of mind, and promoting peace, happiness and long life.

 

On a social level it is about understanding more of your relationship with the energy of the community, society and culture around you, and how they effect and interact with you - and vice versa.

On a Global level it is about correct function and management of your own energy system, to maximize its operation and efficiency, and minimize the need and use of external energy sources and the environment. It addresses 50% of the Global Energy Crisis - our own personal energy. It is about understanding what we truly are, and how we really work, and what we can do about it. It is about emotional, psychological and spiritual health. It is about each person being at their best.

 

It is about understanding what we truly are, and how we really work, and what we can do about it. It is about emotional, psychological and spiritual health. It is about each person being at their best.

 

 

 

Source: James MacRitchie. An Introduction to Qigong.

 

Available for free: https://www.globalqiproject.com

 

Edited August 5 by Giles

[Sahaja]

 

Was first exposed to the terms neigong and waigong (internal skill and external skill) almost 50 years ago. One of the students in my bagua class asked the teacher, who was old school from Asia, what these terms meant. The teacher then demonstrated what they meant on me (as I was the senior student). Not many words were used but it certainly left an impression on me!
 

here are the definitions I am familiar with

in the context of internal martial arts, internal skill is transmitting energy through the soft tissues with little or no involvement of the muscles and hinge joints to generate the force.
 

in the context of Neidan its a process to prepare someone for Neidan - the foundational piece of forming the lower yin field, opening the channels, and building qi. Qi gong, Daoyin, stabilization of awareness in the body, stretching open the body, and breathing techniques are the tools of inner skills in this context. It takes one to the doorstep of the firing process. 
 

I think there is probably an additional usage relative to practicing Chinese medicine but I don’t have direct experience with that. 
 

 

 

 

[Antares]

Neigong is the same as neidan but has more martial application. Neidan was developed first and then neigong on the basis of neidan. But in general it has nothing to do with qigong. The latter one is just health oriented sets of exercises which goal is health promotion and it works with 12 "medicinal" channels in most cases. Sometime qigong can work with 8 "alchemical " meridians but it never can produce the same results as neidan or neigong can do