The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

Neigong is the same as neidan but has more martial application. 

So neigong is based on pre heaven energetics? 

And on the principle of reversal?

Edited August 14 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Chang dao ling]

16 hours ago, Antares said:

has more martial application.

Can you please elaborate?

[Antares]

On 8/15/2024 at 7:00 AM, Chang dao ling said:

Can you please elaborate?

No, this would be off-top. But in short the fa jin or Iron Palm and Shirt are good examples. There was a period when neidan masters needed martial abilities to protect themselves and this is why  it was developed from neidan. But very fundamental basics of the training are not martial and they have same principles in both neidan and neigong. Neigong provides some extra abilities. And one must not develop them and they are optional.  

[Kodoninja]

On 2024-07-15 at 11:58 AM, Taoist Texts said:

neigong would be like, lets say a car mechanic tells you that you pay him upfront a $1000 and he tunes your car to run 'better". you ask how much 'better'? he shrugs: just better. you ask him: better when? he shrugs: sometime, may be 10 years, depends on how you drive too. you ask to see a tuned car: he shows you an ordinary car and claims it runs 'better' than before. same with neidan. so..a fool and his money are easily parted.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Health-Thomas-Cleary-ebook/dp/B005P8E6BG

Thomas Cleary died at the age of 72. My alcoholic diabetic great uncle outlived him. My cigar smoking grandfather also outlived him.

 

Doesn’t seem like these “Taoist” health practices did a whole lot for him 😏

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Kodoninja said:

Thomas Cleary died at the age of 72. My alcoholic diabetic great uncle outlived him. My cigar smoking grandfather also outlived him. Doesn’t seem like these “Taoist” health practices did a whole lot for him 😏

there is 4 issues there if we want to eschew shallowness:

1.  We dont know how long Cleary would live without “Taoist” health practices. People drop like flies way before 72. Also “Taoist” health practices are not immortality. Those are not to be confused with neidan which is immortality.  “Taoist” health practices just allow one to live out his full heavenly allotted lifespan. 

2. Cleary was a flawed but a great translator. There is no evidence at all that he engaged in any practices.

3 Lets see how long we personally live, not our fortunate elders. Anyone would be very fortunate to  live a full, blessed and privileged life of 72, like Cleary.

4. There is a quality of life considerations. Longer life   laced with insulin shot or cigar smoke could be weighed against a vibrant clean shorter life.

[ChiDragon]

On 7/15/2024 at 12:14 PM, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

  What is it about the practice of neigong is so different from other practices? Sorry to be dense.  My only exposure is watching a DVD from Jwing-Ming.

Neidan is a practice of meditation in breathing. Neigong is the internal effect resulted from the practice of neidan.

[ChiDragon]

On 8/14/2024 at 4:35 AM, Antares said:

Neigong is the same as neidan but has more martial application. Neidan was developed first and then neigong on the basis of neidan. But in general it has nothing to do with qigong. The latter one is just health oriented sets of exercises which goal is health promotion and it works with 12 "medicinal" channels in most cases. Sometime qigong can work with 8 "alchemical " meridians but it never can produce the same results as neidan or neigong can do   

FYI Here is how I understand it from a native point of view.
Neidan is a practice originated from Chinese Taoists to have good health for longevity.

Neigong is a kind of practice to develop internal strength for martial arts.

Qigong is a breathing method to accomplish both of the above.
 

[Sherman Krebbs]

18 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Cleary

 

I though the Meditation Health book suggestion was good.  To be clear, it was not Cleary's meditation instruction, and we dont know how many cigars he smoked per day, nor the volume of brandy he put in his morning coffee.  It was just a sampling of treatises from actual doaist practitioners, with practical meditation instruction.  The treatises themselves were written in modern language, which Cleary translated to plain English.  It was not translation of an ancient text, so there is the benefit of not having to read between the lines and speculate as to what esoteric ancient metaphors (weird things like like the "slapping the dead goat of the king from the northern plateau") mean in modern language.  

 

[Antares]

21 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

FYI Here is how I understand it from a native point of view.
Neidan is a practice originated from Chinese Taoists to have good health for longevity.

Neigong is a kind of practice to develop internal strength for martial arts.

Qigong is a breathing method to accomplish both of the above.
 

 

Yangshen gong is for longevity. This is simplified form of neidan/neigong. Qigong is the product of CCP I believe. This is sort of "new age "  approach. I dont know why you refer to it as "breathing method". Specific breathing can be used in neidan/neigong as well. But breathing is only part of it to induce specific flow of qi. The most important is posture and state of mind as well as specific movements and static postures. The main difference between nei... and qigong is how to propel specific flow of qi in certain channels and which channels are used and what sort of qi is employed 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

 

Yangshen gong is for longevity. This is simplified form of neidan/neigong. Qigong is the product of CCP I believe. This is sort of "new age "  approach. I dont know why you refer to it as "breathing method". Specific breathing can be used in neidan/neigong as well. But breathing is only part of it to induce specific flow of qi. The most important is posture and state of mind as well as specific movements and static postures. The main difference between nei... and qigong is how to propel specific flow of qi in certain channels and which channels are used and what sort of qi is employed 

FYI There isn't a good translation in other languages for Qigong(氣功).  The modern Chinese explained Qigong completely different than the English version. That is why there are so much confusion in the western part of the world. Qigong is not the product of the CCP. Qigong is just a new modern name for the ancient term of Tu Na(吐納). Tu Na(吐納) simple means exhale and inhale with the abdomen fully contracted and expanded, respectively. Tu na or Qigong has existed two thousand years ago. There is a big language barrier between the Chinese and English. There are so many esoteric Taoist terms in Chinese that are not translatable into other languages. Unfortunately, people just have to work with what is available to them and took it for granted with a half understanding. Sorry to say, even, the native Chinese gets confuse with the terms. Those who think they knew can only explained with ambiguity, but still something gets lost in the translation.

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

Yangshen gong is for longevity.

Any form of Qigong is for good health. Yangshen gong, 陽神功(Yangshen gong) is just another fancy name invented by some individual for Qigong. Somebody else can come along to call it something else to make it sound like something new for marketing.

[Antares]

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Any form of Qigong is for good health. Yangshen gong, 陽神功(Yangshen gong) is just another fancy name invented by some individual for Qigong. Somebody else can come along to call it something else to make it sound like something new for marketing.

There are loads of low quality qigong sets, only a few of them are of a good quality.  Far not every one of them implies pre-heaven jing cultivation. That what good yangshengong does. Certain channels must be activated which qigong does not even touch. Devil is in details  

[Chang dao ling]

4 hours ago, Antares said:

There are loads of low quality qigong sets, only a few of them are of a good quality.  Far not every one of them implies pre-heaven jing cultivation. That what good yangshengong does. Certain channels must be activated which qigong does not even touch. Devil is in details  

I think yangshen gong = high level neidan

[Antares]

55 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

I think yangshen gong = high level neidan

No, they get yuan jing but dont transmute it into yuan qi. As far as i got it right. Yuan jing is only part of the "medicine". And also i am not sure they nourish De in yanshengong. For De nourishing more ingredients are required  

[Master Logray]

Most people know the name and label of a product or service usually do not correspond with what is actually inside.   Whether a certain "Gong" can produce a reasonable level of YangShen must be verified.   

[damdao]

On 23/8/2024 at 5:36 PM, ChiDragon said:

Any form of Qigong is for good health. Yangshen gong, 陽神功(Yangshen gong) is just another fancy name invented by some individual for Qigong. Somebody else can come along to call it something else to make it sound like something new for marketing.

It is 养生功 Yangsheng gong and means "Training in Nurturing Life" and it is part of the traditional daoist systems for healing and longevity.

It has many schools but always aiming at cultivating and overall wellbeing.

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, damdao said:

It is 养生功 Yangsheng gong and means "Training in Nurturing Life" and it is part of the traditional daoist systems for healing and longevity.

It has many schools but always aiming at cultivating and overall wellbeing.

Yes, 养生功 Yangsheng gong is to maintain life by nurturing the body with foods and air(mainly oxygen). To obtain more oxygen than normal, then, one must practice to improve the respiratory system. That was why Qigong(氣功) practice is the major role. The purpose of Qigong is to learn to sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田). Most people, mistakenly, interpreted that sink chi to the dantian(氣沉丹田) is to sink energy to the lower dantian. Actually, chi in Qigong means air, breath or breathing. If it was misinterpreted, then, one will not be able to reach the goal of Qigong. That is sink the breath deep down to the dantian. At this point, the lung is in its full capacity to hold oxygen to nourish the body cells. The mitochondria in the cells will produce the maximum power energy possible for the body to perform its function.

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, damdao said:

It is 养生功 Yangsheng gong and means "Training in Nurturing Life" and it is part of the traditional daoist systems for healing and longevity.

It has many schools but always aiming at cultivating and overall wellbeing.

 

@damdao 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 8/24/2024 at 8:57 AM, Antares said:

No, they get yuan jing but dont transmute it into yuan qi. As far as i got it right. Yuan jing is only part of the "medicine". And also i am not sure they nourish De in yanshengong. For De nourishing more ingredients are required  

Yuan jing(元精, original jing) is the prenatal jing originated from the parents. It stays in the body to be maintained by the postnatal jing. It is not part of a medicine. De(德) is a philosophical term. It is not a substance in the body as one might think it would be.

De(德) shouldn't even be considered in the discussion. Peace!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Shadow_self]

On 24/08/2024 at 4:57 PM, Antares said:

No, they get yuan jing but dont transmute it into yuan qi. As far as i got it right. Yuan jing is only part of the "medicine". And also i am not sure they nourish De in yanshengong. For De nourishing more ingredients are required  

 

31 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yuan jing(元精, original jing) is the prenatal jing originated from the parents. It stays in the body to be maintained by the postnatal jing. It is not part of a medicine. De(德) is a philosophical term. It is not a substance in the body as one might think it would be.

De(德) shouldn't even be considered in the discussion. Peace!

 

Now @Antares

 

Forget all your neidan training,  You been corrected, and humbled  by one who Knows how to read chinese...

 

@ChiDragon would you care to explain what Ling Qi  靈氣 is,  and how to cultivate it? 

 

 

Edited August 25 by Shadow_self

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

@ChiDragon would you care to explain what Ling Qi  靈氣 is,  and how to cultivate it? 

Certainly!
Ling Qi  靈氣 is a vibrant or radiant force image like of those who are highly cultivated. It only can be observed from a high rank Buddhist monk, Taoist priest, Christian pastor or a Pope. In other words, whatever one practices that have been reached the highest realm will have the appearance of the Ling Qi from the individual.

Edited August 25 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Certainly!
Ling Qi  靈氣 is a vibrant or radiant force image like of those who are highly cultivated. It only can be observed from a high rank Buddhist monk, Taoist priest, Christian pastor or a Pope. In other words, whatever one practices that have been reached the highest realm will have the appearance of the Ling Qi from the individual.

 

Something like this?

[ChiDragon]

16 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Something like this?

Yes, something like this or no images at all but one still can feel it is there.

Edited August 25 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

@ Shadow_self
Another thing that can be said about the Ling Qi of Nature. A Taoist priest stays up in the high mountain to cultivate by doing Qigong to capture the Ling Qi of Nature into the body for good health and longevity.

[Shadow_self]

35 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, something like this or no images at all but one still can feel it is there.

 

Ah see, I had a feeling you would say that.

 

Heres an important distinction for you to think about, that you might appreciate.

 

Thats not actually what Ling  is, but you arent  exactly wrong either

 

When you look at this under google translate, this is what it shows up as

 

 

However, thats not the entire case

 

What Ling really is, is an expression of the more "evolved"  form of spirit

 

If one touches  Ling Shen (magical spirit manifest through the human mind) it allows us to  cultivates Ling Qi , then it can give rise to a huge range of Siddhi,

 

Two of these are things you mentioned, either things like visible light coming off the person ,or indeed a strong feeling that can create all manner of effects in anyone within that field of influence (as you mentioned felt but not seen)

 

So in this case, the translation isnt referring to the thing itself (The more esoteric aspects of spirit) rather its referring to one of its manifestations (in the case probably the most famous one)

 

I thought this was important to state, because the translation given by google isnt entirely accurate. there is is showing the effect

 

Oddly enough, its the same force real Reiki practitioners harness (though that comes with many problems).

 

Here google is translating it as Reiki 霊気

 

This is a better translation, as Reiki is the art of working with Ling Qi

 

Rei = Spiritual

KI = Energy

 

I still dont think its exactly a like for like translation, but its a much more representative version of it

 

You might also enjoy the discussion here

 

https://ihreiki.com/reiki_info/reiki_history/reiki-meaning-of-the-word/?v=d2cb7bbc0d23

 

 

Hopefully what I am saying makes sense?  I think this is important because google translate is notorious for this kind of thing

Edited August 25 by Shadow_self