The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Master Logray]

A bit of history may help.   Originally "The Book" by Laozi, had no title.   Then it was referred to as "Laozi".   Only about 600 years lated, it started be called TTC or now DDJ.   Using the name of the book to determine about how much of it is for virtue is not very useful.

 

The TTC has actually 2 parts, the Tao Jing and the De Jing, talking about the Tao and the Virtues.  Tao Jing is about 40~ chapters, De Jing is about 30~ chapters.   It shows the book is for more than 1 purpose.

 

Interestingly, the contemporary structure of the book is Tao Jing first and De Jing later.  But from the silk version (the book material), showed that the correct order would have been De Jing first and Tao Jing later.  And chapters could appear under Tao or De, depending on versions.  So it was also called De Tao Jing.

 

 

[Master Logray]

2 hours ago, Jadespear said:

 

 

...May I suggest then -  what is the goal of anything then?  In the end, you will forever be a soul/spirit.  You will always have the opportunity to experience bliss and sorrow.  All spirituality is meant to do is to bring you closer to appreciating things by understanding them.  Thats why there are so many traditions and they all are basically the same in the end...except buddhists.  Buddhists are left to find things for themselves it seems.  

 

Neidan is internal alchemy.  Through understanding internal arts, you master them and as a result are no longer entirely subject to treating the inner world with aids of the outer world.  Taoists began practicing Neidan to extend their lives in eras when people died before reaching 30 years of age on average...so consider the historical context.  Taoists practice Neidan as part of their maxim of how to live life.  As taoists don't believe in the duality of samsara and Nibbana, or anything like that - because those are just ways of describing things, not the things themselves.  Taoists deal with reality as it is in pure pristine awareness.  Taoists have the maxim "to live long, happy, healthy, and wise."  That's their path.  They are not trying to escape from anything except living poorly, which they devised an entire system to do.  

 

I really think the concepts of "enlightenment" and "freedom" and "moksha" and all that are taken way to literally and out of context from their traditions.  It's as if people actually believe the entire universe was not made for any purpose except to be transgressed...why does it have so much fun in it then?  Why is life full of plenty of joyful experiences?   

 

Reason only illuminates cause and effect relationships.  As in, what's the point of this? Why is this? Etc etc.  Can you really ask yourself why you exist?  Why existence exists? No.  Sure you can try, but you'll never get an answer as simple as the question posed.  

 

The physical world is the outcome of the mental one.  For life to be lived and felt enlivened - ones mind must be awake, open, and in tune with creating more.  Thats the nature of the mind - to create.  Made in the image of the creator.  

 

Taoists seek to live in harmony with the tao my friend.  The natural way and order of things, Neidan is an internal art used for healing purposes, and in higher levels taoist alchemy (which is basically magic).  A true practitioner of Neidan can achieve complete and everlasting health if they so choose.  

 

If anyone is going to write a Taoist book, they should engage you to write the preface.

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

Why exclude anyone?  

its a caveat of not getting personal

5 hours ago, dwai said:

why do you feel that anything other than a literal translation is a fantasy?

because of the results. if following a literal translation gives me the promised results then any other translation is a fantasy. 2+2=4 is a verifiable result, if  someone implied that  2+2=71.345 then that implication is a fantasy, not needing a verification, because in our causal world one set of causes produces only one result.

 

Lets try  a few different reasonings:

1. Saying one thing but meaning another thing is the very definition of lying. In case of a spiritual book why would the author deceive the reader?

2. If he lies with the literal meaning he would lie with the implied meaning as well, right?

3. Explaining a lying book makes the teacher a liar as well, right? 

4. Why would not the author just write plainly the implied meaning?

5. If the teacher explains the book why is the book needed at all?

..and so on and so on..it  just does not make sense in reality. Thats why it is a fantasy.

 

I met a fairly successful western neidan teacher who claimed that the saints who wrote the books lied intentionally. Seriously he did. He said that the patriarchs of his own avowed linage were liars who lied to intentionally deceive the reader, for secrecy. Of course he was lying, and his students swallowed his absurd lie. They had no De thats why they could not understand the books.

 

5 hours ago, dwai said:

What do you think the daoist texts are for?

luckily i dont have to think, my saintly teachers tell me that in black and white:

Quote

Abandoning myself to follow the others I have authored this chart, completely disclosing the Heavenly spring. Even if stupid commoners get it – none of them would not succeed. But whoever has no De, even if he gets this, Heaven certainly will not accord him this Dao. Why is that? Because Dao and De are like bird wings, if one is lacking, the other is of no use. One must have 忠(zhōng)孝(xiào)仁(rén)义(yì) loyalty, filiality, humanness, duty and the 5 precepts  completely pure, only after that there is a hope. But the refined subtleties and the mysterious marvels are all completely in my this book the 慧(huì)命(mìng)经(jīng). Of those who will be observing both the Dao and De, none will not get the true.

 

Quote

 

Thus the Dark Spring is deeply shown, which was hardly ever disclosed in texts. The marvelous principles of the Numinous Treasure allow to enter the sainthood, transcending the mundane. This summary of the Three Vehicles method is titled ‘Lingbao Bifa’. These words of the great Dao saints I dare not to selfishly use for myself alone, so I transmit this book to Dong-bin, the kind sir, so as to make the completion of Dao not secret, and to bequeath it to the later gentry.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40852-books-vs-crooks/?do=findComment&comment=687892

 

 

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

No need for teachers or lineages. 

There are no secrets

All you need is a book

there ya go, you tell them bro!

Edited August 29 by Taoist Texts

[johndoe2012]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

of course to me and of course I do - because i am literate. and i am happy to share, just for my fun;) here is an explanation what De is exactly

De=values+precepts

https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hans/慧命經

this comes from Huimingjing the sole foundation book of the modern neidan in China, and its garbled version in the West;)

 

From 

 

https://open.library.ubc.ca/media/download/pdf/831/1.0089774/1

 

Quote

For the third question, it was asked, "Why is it that by undertaking the precepts you

will not see attainment of the Tao?"

In reply, he said, "The precepts are [about] violations. They are in fact [from] former

times, after the Tathagata attained the Tao. Because those following him were so

numerous, Manjusrl merely asked Tathagata to set up these precepts and make them a

method of subduing the lower classes of people and preventing them from causing trouble.

The Sixth Patriarch said, 'If your heart is good, why do you need the precepts? The Great

Tao is located in the interior of xing and ming. These precepts are located outside the skin.

The two do not concern each other.' Therefore, there is no attainment [by observing the

precepts]."

 

[Antares]

As I said there are 2 manifestations of De - internal and external. You provided the quote in re to external part of De. People are lazy to read texts carefully and even if they read the whole texts they wont understand what exactly many words imply there, this is not philosophical text which should be realized by post-heaven heart - mind. Also there is more concrete explanation of De which is internal one

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

there ya go, you tell them bro!

 

Well actually, you told us

 

Now if only you could tell us about the physical transformations associated, that would be great  

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, Antares said:

, this is not philosophical text which should be realized by post-heaven heart - mind.

 

Very well put  

[johndoe2012]

On 27.8.2024 at 5:47 PM, dwai said:

Here's an explanation of De (Te) by Master Waysun Liao in his book "Dimension One"

Here, he uses the term Do (as the precursor to the term Dao) (also as a play on his book title - Dimension One). 

And

It is obvious what is being referred to here - the primordial awareness or consciousness, which is at the foundation of our being. The process of uncovering our De (Te) is achieved by the process of releasing layers of conditioning (not building Qi, etc). The method of releasing the layers of conditioning and conditioned thinking consequently frees up our "energy". 

De is not morality, ethics, etc - though those are the outcome of realizing our true nature (De). It is not more Qi - that too is a consequence of releasing the conditioned layers of our personality. 

 

Releasing conditioning is very simple, it just takes a long time. Daoist methods to do that would probably be zuowang. 

 

Non daoist which I have used is energy healing, which is more direct at cleaning out issues. 

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

For the third question, it was asked, "Why is it that by undertaking the precepts you

will not see attainment of the Tao?"

In reply, he said, "The precepts are [about] violations. They are in fact [from] former

times, after the Tathagata attained the Tao. Because those following him were so

numerous, Manjusrl merely asked Tathagata to set up these precepts and make them a

method of subduing the lower classes of people and preventing them from causing trouble.

The Sixth Patriarch said, 'If your heart is good, why do you need the precepts? The Great

Tao is located in the interior of xing and ming. These precepts are located outside the skin.

The two do not concern each other.' Therefore, there is no attainment [by observing the

precepts]."

 

 

Indeed, adhering to such things are akin to training wheels. 

 

As Antares and Dwai have both pointed out, when the mind is sufficiently stripped back and one gets closer to source, there is no doing of the virtues, they simply arise as a sign of a level of attainment. 

 

That is where you operate from at that stage, you radiate the virtues with no thought or deliberate "doing"

 

Until that time, it is wise to adhere in order to help orient onself in that direction

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Until that time, it is wise to adhere in order to help orient onself in that direction

This needs to be re-iterated - that's why these precepts are present in almost all spiritual traditions - one has to live by these until it becomes natural (not simply by repetition, though, but as a consequence of spiritual realization). People function in a contrary manner (to the precepts outlined) because of the pollution of the mind. So just living by a strict moral/ethical code is not enough, associated work to purify the mind is also required. One (non-esoteric) way to do this is through service (that's why service of others is a theme that is often prescribed as a preparatory practice). 

[forestofclarity]

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

This needs to be re-iterated - that's why these precepts are present in almost all spiritual traditions - one has to live by these until it becomes natural 

 

One further issue is that people seem to confuse deeper, unconscious conditioning for spontaneous, true action arising from the totality. I think modern people especially underestimate the depth and power of the alaya/unconscious. 

 

[ChiDragon]

Question!
Is there any members here had accomplished the ultimate goal of Neidan? Why and how so? What are the changes that took place in the body? What do you think the ultimate goal of Neidan should be? What kind of result that one should be expected from the practice? Just tell us anything that you can think of.

[ChiDragon]

On 7/13/2024 at 3:23 PM, Taoist Texts said:

my understanding is that of Daodejing 道生之，德畜之 meaning De is the same as Dao, just down the road. There is nothing else to it and De has nothing to do with neidan. Of course the dao de seminar sellers spew a bunch of garbage about de but they do that just to sell seminars.

道生之 is active

德畜之 is passive

Yes, 德 has nothing to do with 內丹(neidan).

[dwai]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Question!
Is there any members here had accomplished the ultimate goal of Neidan? Why and how so? What are the changes that took place in the body? What do you think the ultimate goal of Neidan should be? What kind of result that one should be expected from the practice? Just tell us anything that you can think of.

Full realization of our original nature as Pure Consciousness, a cessation of fear and suffering, and a deep enjoyment in all aspects of life.  

[ChiDragon]

On 8/26/2024 at 3:51 PM, Shadow_self said:

Chidragon, TT and one or two others on this site dont have the experience of Neidan etc or teachers or adhere to lineages like you or I do

 

They're happy going over chinese characters/ books etc (even if they're missing details we' consider important) 

I am flattered. I always knew that is very amusing in TDB forums by listening to the comments made by knowledgeable members. Some of the comments are debatable and some are laughable. Comments are to be judged by the majority. Some knew what is correct or what not. Some keep their silence and laugh in their hearts. However, whatever the case that might be，the truth will reveal itself.

Edited August 30 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

 

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Comments are to be judged by the majority.

 

If you say so ( I dont agree)

 

But by your own metric, you are basically judged to be wrong

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

51 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

If you say so ( I dont agree)

 

But by your own metric, you are basically judged to be wrong

 

 

 

 

Are you making a judgment?

Denying the truth doesn't make one to be correct.

Edited August 30 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Are you making a judgment?

 

You're the one who made a judgement (in fact I dont even agree with your judgement)

 

You said

 

Quote

Comments are to be judged by the majority.

 

 

Im just pointing out something to you.

 

The most agreed upon comment (the majority) in this thread is the one I posted

 

That comment is in opposition to what you are saying

 

By your own metric, you are wrong

 

So you should probably change your metric

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

By your own metric, you are wrong

 

So you should probably change your metric

The problem here is that this is open discussion and everyone can join it and express their valuable opinion. This is the downside of the "democracy" when politicians are set up by majority. But the majority is being programmed by politicians. I heard in USA some states are considering the law that when adults "love" toddlers that would be fine and legal. So the issue is who sets up these metrics. Here I used not accurate language I hope you got me what I speak about   

Edited August 30 by Antares

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

The problem here is that this is open discussion and everyone can join it and express their valuable opinion. 

 

I dont think its a problem of open discussion or people joining in. I do question just  how valuable an opinion is however. I think thats a far more nuanced discussion

[Antares]

41 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I dont think its a problem of open discussion or people joining in.

Let say Chinese Communist Party is going to hold meeting on how to rule the country next 5 years, how do you think all people are welcome to join it including westerners let say from Biden' team?  Both sides have their own agendas and view on the subject. That is why CCP meetings are open only for members of CCP. Why you think in Daoist system it should be different? Let say master of qigong from New York is coming to Daoist meeting and says:"Hey dudes, majority of American masters knows better what you should do... "

Edited August 30 by Antares

[dwai]

FWIW, in my humble opinion, it is perfectly okay for people to share their views and ideas on a public forum such as TDB and have vigorous discussions/debates on things. But we must be realistic—it is improbable that Perspective A can persuade Perspective B to change. 

One thing we must keep in mind is to recognize when we agree to disagree and maintain civility in our interactions. So, no ad hominem, name-calling, insulting each other. We are all human and succumb to the heat of the moment - as long as we recognize and self-regulate - for example, if we insult someone publicly, apologize to them right there (or when called out by other members/moderators), we can grow collectively. 

 

It might interest members to take a look at this - 

 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I do question just  how valuable an opinion is however.

 

Unfortunately, most of us are locked into a limited view, and tend to try to universalize our limited view (standard ego-type process or samskara). Who is to say what is valuable in the totality in the long run over years or lifetimes? Struggling through ignorance, making mistakes, forming wrong views and going down side paths builds discernment, in my (limited) experience. The path tends to be broader than we often think.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Unfortunately, most of us are locked into a limited view, and tend to try to universalize our limited view (standard ego-type process or samskara). Who is to say what is valuable in the totality in the long run over years or lifetimes? Struggling through ignorance, making mistakes, forming wrong views and going down side paths builds discernment, in my (limited) experience. The path tends to be broader than we often think.

 

I think we are all limited to a degree by experience. However, that was also what I was referring to in regard to the value of an opinion.

 

A person with little to no experience of something is unlikely to have an opinion of much value on that topic for obvious reasons. 

 

If they do have experience of it, then the discussion becomes far more complex

 

This is not just limited to the arts. Its a much broader discussion too imo

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

However, that was also what I was referring to in regard to the value of an opinion.

 

I would suggest that EVERYTHING has value. Each thought, feeling, arising, being, non-beings is an expression of the greater totality. And as you may know, as an experienced practitioner, a lot of less experienced practitioners may (improperly) take such statements to mean that they have no value, or are somehow diminished, when in fact their value is immeasurable.