The ultimate goal of Neidan

[ChiDragon]

19 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Question!
Is there any members here had accomplished the ultimate goal of Neidan? Why and how so? What are the changes that took place in the body? What do you think the ultimate goal of Neidan should be? What kind of result that one should be expected from the practice? Just tell us anything that you can think of.

Demo of the effect of breathing with sabre practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAHRqOtJDQ
 

[Master Logray]

When the "value" of something is to determine the discussion, it is not very right.

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

When the "value" of something is to determine the discussion, it is not very right.

the word value is derived from a PIE root meaning ‘strong’ - I see a relation between ‘ value’ and ‘virtue’ - which despite what you suggest is very right.

 

Where right side ‘dexter’ is revealed power and left side ‘sinister’ is hidden power.  What we show in a discussion to our ‘ opponent’ is our revealed power but what we conceal is just as important.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I would suggest that EVERYTHING has value.

 

In a manner of speaking of course. Though how that value is directly or indirectly beneficial is a wider discussion,

 

8 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

Each thought, feeling, arising, being, non-beings is an expression of the greater totality.

 

Indeed

 

8 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

And as you may know, as an experienced practitioner

 

Im flattered  and I appreciate the gesture, but I dont categorize myself in that way at all to be honest

 

8 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

a lot of less experienced practitioners may (improperly) take such statements to mean that they have no value, or are somehow diminished, when in fact their value is immeasurable. 

 

I believe I mentioned "not much" and never said "none". I was very careful when i worded that

 

In fact counterproductive and even blatant disrespect afford one an opportunity to practice cultivation of mental qualities, and an opportunity to be of service

 

Immeasurable is a term im careful of. I put that squarely in the category of variable.

 

Often immeasureable is conflated are overly valuable, where I am more cautious with that  

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Demo of the effect of breathing with sabre practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAHRqOtJDQ
 

 

I would be curious to know how exactly this relates to anything being discussed?

[ChiDragon]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I would be curious to know how exactly this relates to anything being discussed?

You cannot relate this to the importance of breathing?

Edited August 31 by ChiDragon

[Shadow_self]

24 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

You cannot relate this to the importance of breathing?

 

Breathing is not my concern here

 

Id be more concerned about the fact even basic internal mechanics are absent from this video

 

Its a nice external display, but the internal connection isnt there from where im sitting

[ChiDragon]

18 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Its a nice external display, but the internal connection isnt there from where im sitting

Yes, that's right. There was no connection between our understanding to begin with in the first place.

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, that's right. There was no connection between our understanding to begin with in the first place.

 

This isnt about connection in our understanding. You are not demonstrating a working internal body here,

 

You are not using the Kua or the Huang for example

 

The fascial connections do not appear to be made, so the movement is broken and done using the muscles exernally. The fascial web is not engaged  and connected up how it should be,

 

Its a very nice external display,  Im impressed you memorised the movements  and executed them that way

 

But, I do not see the interal engine that makes Taiji work properly

 

But aside from that. It  really has nothing to do with Neidan,

 

So im still really struggling to understand why you posted it

Edited August 31 by Shadow_self

[ChiDragon]

Anybody else has a comment to make? Let's hear it!

Edited August 31 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

16 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Anybody else has a comment to make? Let's hear it!

The music is very good. Good movement, also I appreciate the proprioception and balance. 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Anybody else has a comment to make? Let's hear it!

Thank you for posting.

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Anybody else has a comment to make? Let's hear it!

 

Only that I remember your demo with sabre  from ages ago when you posted it , and the converse that ensued back then .

 

Seems you are still getting the same criticisms ?

 

My criticism on it is .... you should have shut the windows .... or at least turned the stereo down 

 

( that music was terrible ) 

Edited August 31 by Nungali

[ChiDragon]

It was posted here for a purpose. It is here to hear the comments to reveal the truth of what is in people's mind. It will reveal what and how much people knew about Neidan.

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It was posted here for a purpose. It is here to hear the comments to reveal the truth of what is in people's mind. It will reveal what and how much people knew about Neidan.

That sounds like a self-defeating mental game to me. How much Neidan does one need to know to learn and perform a Sabre-form? I contend that it is zero.

 

Would you like to help us understand how it reveals what and how much they know about Neidan? 

[ChiDragon]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:32 PM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

It seems to me that the OP was relating Neidan by emphasizing to Buddhism idea and thoughts. Thus that is why it is so confusing and unclear. It was completely out of the scope of Taoism. FYI Neidan is a practice method originated by Chinese Taoist. Hence, there were lots of discussion about Neidan here before. Perhaps some late comers might have missed. It wouldn't hurt to spend sometime to review them.

[ChiDragon]

On 7/13/2024 at 12:32 PM, roamthevoid said:

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on,

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture,

 So far, these thoughts are the true beliefs in the Taoist religion but not necessarily in Taoism.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

That sounds like a self-defeating mental game to me. How much Neidan does one need to know to learn and perform a Sabre-form? I contend that it is zero.

 

Would you like to help us understand how it reveals what and how much they know about Neidan? 

I would like to see you to pick up a sabre and start swing it without the practice of Neidan, Qigong or Neigong, whichever you prefer. Then, tell me how it feels with the sabre in your hand. I can assure you without conditioning your body with some kind of gong, you will not last for long.

Your body has a certain amount of energy to spare. After 3 to 6 minutes or so, some might take a little longer, your body will be exhausted. That is why boxers were put into the ring for a 3-minute round each time. Then, rest for one minute. If the body can recover and produced some energy, the boxer will survive for another round. Otherwise, the boxer gets KOed by the stronger opponent.

How does the body sustain its strength is by breathing to capture the oxygen into the body cells to produce the energy. The more oxygen in the body, the longer the body can sustain on its feet and perform its task.
 

The 6 minute video was to prove that the significant of the ability in breathing. Without continuous proper breathing, the performer wouldn't last for 3 minutes. Without the practice of Taiji in conditioning the body muscles, the movements would be much different and awkward.

Neidan(內丹) is mainly involved in breathing, abdominal breathing to be exact. The action was considered to be 氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian, it was referred by ancient Chinese Taoists. The rest about how the body produce energy will be in the modern explanation about cell respiration. It is for your own discovery.

Edited August 31 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

49 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I would like to see you to pick up a sabre and start swing it without the practice of Neidan, Qigong or Neigong, whichever you prefer. Then, tell me how it feels with the sabre in your hand. I can assure you without conditioning your body with some kind of gong, you will not last for long.

this guy is doing a more intense workout without any Qigong/neigong involved - 

 

While I’m not disputing that Sabre forms are not taxing, it is not demonstrative of Neidan/neigong either. 

Sure, breath work is involved, conditioning is involved, but it’s not Neidan. 

49 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Your body has a certain amount of energy to spare. After 3 to 6 minutes or so, some might take a little longer, your body will be exhausted. That is why boxers were put into the ring for a 3-minute round each time. Then, rest for one minute. If the body can recover and produced some energy, the boxer will survive for another round. Otherwise, the boxer gets KOed by the stronger opponent.

How does the body sustain its strength is by breathing to capture the oxygen into the body cells to produce the energy. The more oxygen in the body, the longer the body can sustain on its feet and perform its task.
 

The 6 minute video was to prove that the significant of the ability in breathing. Without continuous proper breathing, the performer wouldn't last for 3 minutes. Without the practice of Taiji in conditioning the body muscles, the movements would be much different and awkward.

If you are conditioning muscles in Taijiquan then you are doing it wrong I’m afraid. But there’s nothing wrong with conditioning the muscles - I lift weights, do cardio, etc. But Taijiquan is the opposite of that - it is about releasing, letting go of muscular strength and developing internal power. One can do both, but not at the same time. 

49 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Neidan(內丹) is mainly involved in breathing, abdominal breathing to be exact. The action was considered to be 氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian, it was referred by ancient Chinese Taoists. The rest about how the body produce energy will be in the modern explanation about cell respiration. It is for your own discovery.

Ok, so Neidan = qigong = neigong = breathing? 

[ChiDragon]

On 8/31/2024 at 5:02 PM, dwai said:

Ok, so Neidan = qigong = neigong = breathing? 

No, they are not. However, neidan, qigong and neigong are all involved in breathing. Nothing works without breathing, please be informed that breathing means abdominal breathing.

Edited September 3 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

Sure, breath work is involved, conditioning is involved, but it’s not Neidan. 

Please tell me what Neidan is rather than it is not.

[dwai]

51 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

No, they are not not. However, neidan, qigong and neigong are all involved in breathing. Nothing works without breathing, please be informed that breathing means abdominal breathing.

Of course! Try living without breathing  

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Please tell me what Neidan is rather than it is not.

I already told you what it is per to my understanding. Realization of our True Nature. 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I would like to see you to pick up a sabre and start swing it without the practice of Neidan, Qigong or Neigong, whichever you prefer.

 

Using the Sabre has nothing to do with Neidan im afraid

 

 

Quote

Then, tell me how it feels with the sabre in your hand. I can assure you without conditioning your body with some kind of gong, you will not last for long

 

 

You dont show any gong in this video as far as internal devleopment is concerned. In fact, you are demonstrating the complete opposite

 

@dwai point is totally accurate. If you're using muscles its not right.

 

The interal body is supposed to engage and the muscles get taken along for the ride, but they are the passenger

 

To an untrained eye they might struggle with this. But dwai sees, it, and so do I

 

Quote

Your body has a certain amount of energy to spare. After 3 to 6 minutes or so, some might take a little longer, your body will be exhausted. That is why boxers were put into the ring for a 3-minute round each time. Then, rest for one minute. If the body can recover and produced some energy, the boxer will survive for another round. Otherwise, the boxer gets KOed by the stronger opponent.

 

How does the body sustain its strength is by breathing to capture the oxygen into the body cells to produce the energy. The more oxygen in the body, the longer the body can sustain on its feet and perform its task.

 

This is not relevant

 

You are doing a cardiovasucular workout in this video. It isnt indicative of qigong, neigong or neidan

 

its a very nice external display. In fact, well done on  learning the choreography, thats impressive in and of itself

 

But we need to be clear about this. There is no internals in that video

 

Quote

The 6 minute video was to prove that the significant of the ability in breathing. Without continuous proper breathing, the performer wouldn't last for 3 minutes. Without the practice of Taiji in conditioning the body muscles, the movements would be much different and awkward.

 

Taiji does not condition the muscles, Dwai stated the mechanic clearly. its about release. Its the complete opposite

 

Quote

Neidan(內丹) is mainly involved in breathing, abdominal breathing to be exact. The action was considered to be 氣沉丹田, sink chi to the dantian, it was referred by ancient Chinese Taoists. The rest about how the body produce energy will be in the modern explanation about cell respiration. It is for your own discovery.

 

Sinking chi to the danitien is a part of neigong.

 

Neidan is about the creation of an immortal vehicle that will allow one to transcend the transmigration cycle

 

It involves the creation of an elixir or an embryo.

[ChiDragon]

You all had made your points. Thank you very much. Hope you all practice your own method to a successful journey.