The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Shadow_self]

37 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 

Personally, I don't blame them. I tend to be skeptical and usually my skepticism is not disappointed. Also, there tends to be a lot of fraud, gullibility, truth stretching, money grabbing, etc. which is fairly rampant in this realm (a lot of demos, for example, seem to purposely confuse the use of leverage with the use of internal power). If I hadn't experienced it myself, in an impromptu situations, I wouldn't have believed it either. 

 

Do you not see the issue of closed mindedness and cynicism with the Fajin project?

 

  I mean sure, argue away if you dont think its a fighting thing, but these folk attack teachers no stop without ever having seen them. 

 

Whats odder to me is, its a few work to open the Laogong properly, to the point that the Qi reaches the palms to manipulate people without touching them  to an extent

 

 This imo is even a stretch beyond fa jin. Not because its better, just because you can affect them without touching them, so the level of "woo" goes up. But its not hard at all with the right method

 

You could literally prove this to yourself within a few weeks of decent training if you wanted to

[forestofclarity]

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Do you not see the issue of closed mindedness and cynicism with the Fajin project?

 

  I mean sure, argue away if you dont think its a fighting thing, but these folk attack teachers no stop without ever having seen them. 

 

No more than what I see here, in spiritual communities, or even within my own mind. But they are not, as far as I know, spiritual practitioners. But cynicism can be turned into an agent of the path, as with certain forms of Buddhism. In this case, maybe they are not cynical enough (i.e. questioning their own beliefs about materialism, for instance). 

 

47 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

You could literally prove this to yourself within a few weeks of decent training if you wanted to

 

I don't think that is true, at least not in my experience and the experience of people I've interacted with (unless one counts suggestion, which I do not). For some, perhaps, depending on one's karmic propensities--- recall about universalizing one's personal experience. I think it is better to let the potential unfold rather than try to cultivate some specific end from a limited POV.

 

But even if I could fajin energy at a distance or electric qi some one, I doubt I would do it at this stage. 

 

[Taoist Texts]

did i just see a video of a young guy pushing a grandma titled 'the invisible power of taichee'? with advanced skills?........sometimes there are no words....

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

No more than what I see here, in spiritual communities, or even within my own mind. But they are not, as far as I know, spiritual practitioners. But cynicism can be turned into an agent of the path, as with certain forms of Buddhism. In this case, maybe they are not cynical enough (i.e. questioning their own beliefs about materialism, for instance). 

 

 

I understand, and do agree with much of what you say

 

However I do believe its beyond comedic that they've been attacking the likes of Adam mizner for years, yet could simply test this out quite fast by simply turning up to an event. Adams not shy (Nor are many of the other teachers I know with such skills)

 

6 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

I don't think that is true, at least not in my experience and the experience of people I've interacted with (unless one counts suggestion, which I do not). For some, perhaps, depending on one's karmic propensities--- recall about universalizing one's personal experience. I think it is better to let the potential unfold rather than try to cultivate some specific end from a limited POV.

 

Its not so much karmic to be perfectly honest . Its also not a "trained end" so much as a byproduct of opening both laogong and the connection between laogong and the lower dantien

 

The increase in chi flow to the extremeties (hands) means more electrictiy, which in turn means more magnetism.

 

The magnetism is how one can affect others by interacting with the nervous system. Once the pathways are opened, then the more qi you build, the stronger the effect will be. For want of a better word, you literally interact with their electromagnetic makeup via your hands

 

If you are familar with the homunculus model of the sensory and motor cortex, this will make a lot more sense?? 

 

I was able to test this and similar effects on people who were blinded,  and I did it counterbalanaced. So it is definately true

 

6 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

But even if I could fajin energy at a distance or electric qi some one, I doubt I would do it at this stage. 

 

 

Electric qi emission proper does have a karmic link.

 

Im not talking about the usual thing you see. The "assisted faqi" Thats something else entirely and not what people think

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I was able to test this and similar effects on people who were blinded,  and I did it counterbalanaced. So it is definately true

I did it to some skeptics and their response was “wow! You’ve managed to figure out how to use static electricity between your palms” 😆

[forestofclarity]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Adam mizner for years, yet could simply test this out quite fast by simply turning up to an event

 

Adam does it to himself in my opinion. Personally, I haven't seen any of his demonstrations that couldn't be explained in terms of alignment and leverage. He is very skilled in this regard, but this is not necessarily a true "qi" type demonstration, but he allows people to think it is. Which is not to say that there isn't more, I just haven't personally experienced it. 

 

But I doubt the infamy is bad for him. For every X critics, Y people will check him out to learn for themselves. Even worse is that for every 1 person who has some mastery, there are probably 999 BS artists out there. The signal to noise ratio is outrageous and would not be tolerated in any other field. 

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Its also not a "trained end" so much as a byproduct of opening both laogong and the connection between laogong and the lower dantien

 

My own view is that the subtle body will unfold on its own if "we" stop interfering with it. The basic mechanism appears to be quite simple, but a lot of complicated techniques have evolved (possibly in an effort to mimic this spontaneous process). 

 

One larger issue in modern Daoist practice is one often increases the qi in the system without necessarily thinning the samskaras/acquired mind, skipping over what I see as a very necessary step. Increasing the total energy in this case amplifies what is already there, for better and worse. I woudl further suggest that as one progresses, obstacles both internal and external will generally increase, requiring more and more skill. 

 

And I also think we generally underestimate how deep the delusion runs--- a sense of self impacts how we sensorily process the world, and reducing this impacts how everything is experienced. It is impossible to even write basic English sentences without invoking the false "I" in some way. And I would also suggest this runs on a spectrum--- it is not an all or nothing, which makes it even more subtle. 

 

Just some opinions. 

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

f you are familar with the homunculus model of the sensory and motor cortex, this will make a lot more sense?? 

 

Vaguely--- are you talking about how the brain maps the body? 

[forestofclarity]

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

sometimes there are no words....

 

And yet...

[Taoist Texts]

1 minute ago, forestofclarity said:

And yet...

well since you insists...hmm..lets see...a young dude pushes a body-positive grandma, gets praised as a paragon of advanced skills, with the invisible power':.......'ewww' ....'cringe'....'my eyes, my eyes' .... those words come to mind first. After the initial shock wears out a question: teachers will put on any show to finagle a buck, that goes w/o saying. But what went through this dude's mind? Let me tape how i can manhandle a plump senior woman, the students will line up to learn that precious and rare skill? That amazing power?

[forestofclarity]

24 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well since you insists...

 

Not saying whether I agree or disagree, but it did make me laugh out loud. Several times. 

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well since you insists...hmm..lets see...a young dude pushes a body-positive grandma, gets praised as a paragon of advanced skills, with the invisible power':.......'ewww' ....'cringe'....'my eyes, my eyes' .... those words come to mind first. After the initial shock wears out a question: teachers will put on any show to finagle a buck, that goes w/o saying. But what went through this dude's mind? Let me tape how i can manhandle a plump senior woman, the students will line up to learn that precious and rare skill? That amazing power?

Maybe it also goes to show the viewer's perspective. You saw a young guy 'manhandling' a senior lady. I saw a taijiquan teacher demonstrate some intriguing (and advanced) concepts practically. It doesn't matter to me if it is a plump old lady or a ripped young dude. 

If you check out his videos, he rotates through students. Why did he select that particular subject to show this? IDK, maybe he just doesn't care what some "expert" on the internet thinks about it

 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

But what went through this dude's mind? Let me tape how i can manhandle a plump senior woman, the students will line up to learn that precious and rare skill? That amazing power?

 

So this whole post provides examples of how people act from their acquired mental habits. If the guy is legit (which I can't assess based on a few seconds of a video or checking out how he teaches, whether he primes and conditions his students to respond a certain way, etc.), then his actions would not be coming from such a limited mental space. 

 

[johndoe2012]

1 hour ago, forestofclarity said:

 

So this whole post provides examples of how people act from their acquired mental habits. If the guy is legit (which I can't assess based on a few seconds of a video or checking out how he teaches, whether he primes and conditions his students to respond a certain way, etc.), then his actions would not be coming from such a limited mental space. 

 

 

From that video I heard two people discuss their practice as something beautiful. They were excited and enthusiastic.

 

Reminds me of this from Soh from Awakening to Reality

 

Quote

I was awakened by the chirping of a bird outside the window. I had never heard such a sound before. My eyes were still closed, and I saw the image of a precious diamond. Yes, if a diamond could make a sound,this is what it would be like. I opened my eyes. The first light of dawn was filtering through the curtains.Without any thought, I felt, I knew, that there is infinitely more to light than we realize. That soft luminosity filtering through the curtains was love itself. Tears came into my eyes. I got up and walked around the room.I recognized the room, and yet I knew that I had never truly seen it before. Everything was fresh and pristine,as if it had just come into existence. I picked up things, a pencil, an empty bottle, marveling at the beauty and aliveness of it all.That day I walked around the city in utter amazement at the miracle of life on earth, as if I had just been born into this world.For the next five months, I lived in a state of uninterrupted deep peace and bliss. After that, it diminished somewhat in intensity, or perhaps it just seemed to because it became my natural state. I could still function in the world, although I realized that nothing I ever did could possibly add anything to what I already had.

 

Amazement, beauty, love, oneness.

[Sahaja]

Sharing a link to a paper by Fabrizio Pregadio that seems germane to this discussion called Laozi and Internal Alchemy. He examines different theories of the relationship between Dao De Jing and Internal Alchemy  and  cites many original texts in doing so (which by itself is valuable).  His conclusion at the end is quite interesting. 
 

https://academia.edu/resource/work/36872427

[Shadow_self]

On 03/09/2024 at 2:51 PM, forestofclarity said:

 

Adam does it to himself in my opinion. Personally, I haven't seen any of his demonstrations that couldn't be explained in terms of alignment and leverage. He is very skilled in this regard, but this is not necessarily a true "qi" type demonstration, but he allows people to think it is. Which is not to say that there isn't more, I just haven't personally experienced it. 

 

Perhaps you should if you think its all leverage?  I prefer Mark personally (Dwai seems to share that endorsement)

 

But also Mark speaks quite highly of Adams technical skill.

 

Im not sure its a "non qi" demonstration either to be honest. As far as i have it, Adam is rather reserved on camera

 

 

 

Quote

But I doubt the infamy is bad for him. For every X critics, Y people will check him out to learn for themselves. Even worse is that for every 1 person who has some mastery, there are probably 999 BS artists out there. The signal to noise ratio is outrageous and would not be tolerated in any other field. 

 

 

He normally laughts it off

 

Quote

My own view is that the subtle body will unfold on its own if "we" stop interfering with it. The basic mechanism appears to be quite simple, but a lot of complicated techniques have evolved (possibly in an effort to mimic this spontaneous process). 

 

 

To what extent? I cant say I agree it'll sort itself out, though I undestand how one could arrive there. 

 

Quote

One larger issue in modern Daoist practice is one often increases the qi in the system without necessarily thinning the samskaras/acquired mind, skipping over what I see as a very necessary step. Increasing the total energy in this case amplifies what is already there, for better and worse. I woudl further suggest that as one progresses, obstacles both internal and external will generally increase, requiring more and more skill. 

 

I dont think thats an issue in daoist practice at all. More often than not ive seen it as an issue in lineages where an increase in juice, usually with pills or a teachers help, without the required mental development is the case. Thats not daoist necessarily

 

Ive seen it more in buddhist lineages actually, ones with some Yijinjing methods, but only a partial understanding of the  principle

 

Quote

And I also think we generally underestimate how deep the delusion runs--- a sense of self impacts how we sensorily process the world, and reducing this impacts how everything is experienced. It is impossible to even write basic English sentences without invoking the false "I" in some way. And I would also suggest this runs on a spectrum--- it is not an all or nothing, which makes it even more subtle. 

 

Just some opinions. 

 

Do you undestand the mechanic here?  How the Po is involved etc? 

 

Quote

 

Vaguely--- are you talking about how the brain maps the body? 

 

Im talking about this

 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Shadow_self

[forestofclarity]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Perhaps you should if you think its all leverage?  I prefer Mark personally (Dwai seems to share that endorsement)

 

I meant specifically from Adam. I've had experiences with others, especially the Waysun Liao school, although in the short few years I was there I didn't learn any of it (or even leverage). I've met Dwai in real life some decades ago and I think he is telling the truth about his own experiences. Having said that, I generally only speak to what I've experienced directly (and typically verified with a living teacher). I've had some good experiences with Rasmus as well, and also Damo's stuff. But there's only so many hours in the day. I made a gamble a long time ago to put my eggs basically in one basket. I generally agree with your assessments.

 

10 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

To what extent?

 

A clean connection to the essence of mind + some proper relaxed concentration on the right spot --> natural development of subtle body. 

 

16 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I dont think thats an issue in daoist practice

 

We experience things differently. No issues there. 

 

18 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

How the Po is involved etc? 

 

Not from the Daoist angle. My main practices are Buddhist, I'm more on again, off again with Daoist stuff. However, there are many works (Cleary's SOTGF, the DDJ, Ge Gulong's Inner Alchemy) that are right on point IME. 

 

24 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

only a partial understanding of the  principle

 

Care to elaborate? 

[forestofclarity]

On 9/3/2024 at 1:09 PM, Sahaja said:

His conclusion at the end is quite interesting. 

 

That's been my suspicion as well. I'll have to give the paper a proper read at some point. 

[Shadow_self]

45 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

I meant specifically from Adam.

 

Im just curious why you think he does it to himself? Is if from showing it in public?

45 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

 I've had experiences with others, especially the Waysun Liao school, although in the short few years I was there I didn't learn any of it (or even leverage). I've met Dwai in real life some decades ago and I think he is telling the truth about his own experiences. Having said that, I generally only speak to what I've experienced directly (and typically verified with a living teacher). I've had some good experiences with Rasmus as well, and also Damo's stuff. But there's only so many hours in the day. I made a gamble a long time ago to put my eggs basically in one basket. 

 

I guess im lucky that two systems crossover so theres convergence points. But generally speaking I work it in cycles

 

 

45 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

A clean connection to the essence of mind + some proper relaxed concentration on the right spot --> natural development of subtle body. 

 

 

This is interesting. Because natural is a curious term

 

Id personally argue the upper stages of neigong and neidan are an un-natural development of the subtle. By this I mean pushing beyond what is considered normal and even optimal

 

45 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

We experience things differently. No issues there. 

 

I've only met a handful of Daoist  lineages that have proper methods for building qi. If its ever been the case that some people had a lopsided practice, it wasnt because of the teacher or the system, it was they chose to ignore the mental work

 

Ive personally seen that time and time again, but Id think it a limitation of the people themselves

 

45 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Not from the Daoist angle. My main practices are Buddhist, I'm more on again, off again with Daoist stuff. However, there are many works (Cleary's SOTGF, the DDJ, Ge Gulong's Inner Alchemy) that are right on point IME. 

 

I think a study of the Po might be important in aiding ones understanding of dependant origination to be perfectly honest

 

45 minutes ago, forestofclarity said:

Care to elaborate? 

 

About the Yijinjing? Yes, but i am very limited in what Im willing to say
 

They may have the methods that can help build qi, however they dont quite grasp how they are generating it, nor the implications of doing so karmically speaking. They also use combinations of external substances, or means  which can create some of the effects, but the impact is only further heightened

 

They dont understand the causal effects of it, to make a long story short

 

You often find these people either in poor health, of poor ethics or lacking morals. As you rightly mentioned, more layers of the acquired mind

 

However, that which can organize and build layers , can also reorganize and undo them, so theres an energetic mechanic here...

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think a study of the Po might be important in aiding ones understanding of dependant origination to be perfectly honest

Any useful texts on that subject?

I personally have not found much from the daoist sektion that goes into actually explaining stuff. Compared to buddhist texts, daoist ones tend to focus on wrapping everything in terminology, seldom cutting to the chase. 

Or, when finally getting anywhere, talking about basic energetics. 

[forestofclarity]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

im lucky

 

You can say that from one POV. From another, one might say that one's karma and dharma is unfolding as it should. We can let the egoic functions interfere with it, prolonging the unfolding in an attempt to rush it, improve it, modify it, obtain some end, etc. which will generally lead to unnecessary suffering or we can allow the unfolding to occur as it does in our personal mind stream (usually we do some of each). The egoic functions insist everything happen in a limited, specific way. Reality does what it does. 

[Shadow_self]

5 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Any useful texts on that subject?

I personally have not found much from the daoist sektion that goes into actually explaining stuff. Compared to buddhist texts, daoist ones tend to focus on wrapping everything in terminology, seldom cutting to the chase. 

Or, when finally getting anywhere, talking about basic energetics. 

 

Poetic language normally just designed to augment in person teaching, specifically related to confirmatory signs

 

If someone wanted to get a read into this, id look at damos white moon and large neigong book and go through it with a highlighter

 

Once read you could compare them with the 12 links and understand a few of the energetic mechanics associated with the way they go from on to the next (either backward or forward

 

Thats about what I can say without deliving into oral teachings

[Antares]

45 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

If someone wanted to get a read into this, id look at damos white moon and large neigong book and go through it with a highlighter

 

Once read you could compare them with the 12 links and understand a few of the energetic mechanics associated with the way they go from on to the next (either backward or forward

If I am not mistaken he teaches the work with MCO as seated meditation and trying to open it with the use of breath and attention. BTW he teaches qigong MCO. I dont think this is a good choice to read.  I would even say to avoid it by all means 

[Shadow_self]

 

 

Quote

BTW he teaches qigong MCO.

 

Definately not what he taught me, and Im very aware of the difference between the two

I wont be discussing it in public im afraid . So I apologize, but the conversation on MCO related things ends here from me

 

Quote

I dont think this is a good choice to read.  I would even say to avoid it by all means 

 

I wasnt referring to it for purposes of the MCO at all.

 

I was actually referring to the relationship betwene the Po, Jing, Ming, the sense faculties, the five elements in neidan and how they all tie into Pratītyasamutpāda.

 

And its not discussed in there.

 

But I know @Forestgreen ,

 

I  was just pointing out something that I know he would have the discernment to pick up on by cross referencing

Edited September 5 by Shadow_self

[Antares]

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Definately not what he taught me, and Im very aware of the difference between the two

Alright, but I just wonder why he teaches qigong MCO, is any benefit in doing so

 

10 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I was actually referring to the relationship betwene the Po, Jing, Ming, the sense faculties, the five elements in neidan

If he teaches qigong how can he know neidan energetic mechanics? I am not talking about MCO specifically, it was just example of what he teaches.  

 

[Shadow_self]

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

If he teaches qigong how can he know neidan energetic mechanics?

 

 

He teaches both

 

You do know its ok to do both right? Its not an either/or

[Giles]

42 minutes ago, Antares said:

 I would even say to avoid it by all means 

 

QFT.

 

The fundamental problem with Mitchell isn't necessarily in the detail, the basic problem lies in the institutionalised secrecy, which means that nobody has any real idea about what they're getting into when they sign-up. There's even a possibility that Mitchell himself doesn't know where he's going to end up:

 

Quote

At the current time, Damo continues his practice of Nei Gong within three distinct lines of training. For the time-being Damo wishes to keep these lines and the teachers involved to himself. One teacher wishes to remain anonymous

 

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20240425111907/https://lotusneigong.com/damo-mitchell-6/

 

 

Caveat emptor...