The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

QFT.

 

The fundamental problem with Mitchell isn't necessarily in the detail, the basic problem lies in the institutionalised secrecy, which means that nobody has any real idea about what they're getting into when they sign-up. There's even a possibility that Mitchell himself doesn't know where he's going to end up:

 

 

Caveat emptor...

 

 

Actually thats not true. He is very clear what he teaches is from  Quanzhen Longmen Pai. The teacher the public methods come from is even named on the site also

 

Its been public for several years.

 

 

Theres no problem with Damo or what he teaches at all in fact. Its pretty straightforward and nothing is  "secret".

 

Why you feel the need to decieve others and yourself, is beyond me

[Giles]

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Actually thats not true. He is very clear what he teaches is from  Quanzhen Longmen Pai. The teacher the public methods come from is even named on the site also

 

Its been public for several years.

 

 

Theres no problem with Damo or what he teaches at all in fact. Its pretty straightforward and nothing is  "secret".

 

 

Some of it certainly appears to have been public for many years.

 

Some of it (perhaps even the majority of it) is, in fact, shrouded in institutionalised secrecy. A fact that's obvious from even a cursory examination of your own posts.

 

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Why you feel the need to decieve others and yourself, is beyond me

 

This ad hominem speaks clearly not only to your own character but also to that of your teachers.

 

Edited September 5 by Giles

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

He teaches both

 

You do know its ok to do both right? Its not an either/or

If there is no true sperm in the tripod (Fu), that is like to boil empty kettle (Cheng) using water and fire. This is the best apt expression in relation to the exercises of qigong in the performance of the rotation around the circle of heaven. Without Water flowing and without the True Sperm to realize a small circle of heaven - to use  a feeling of qi is like using a fire to burn under  an empty pot. Then you can’t escape a burn-out. This circle of heaven of qigong uses the mobilization-release potential  of body and produces wastes. It's just like to speed up a car with the brakes on. The faster it will go, the more damage there will be, but it will give no benefits. Similar to this, the rotation of the circle of heaven does not do any good. The above shows the difference between a small circle in alchemy and qigong.

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

If there is no true sperm in the tripod (Fu), that is like to boil empty kettle (Cheng) using water and fire. /...  .../ Without Water flowing and without the True Sperm to realize a small circle of heaven - to use  a feeling of qi is like using a fire to burn under  an empty pot. 

I'm not sure that is a full quote and a good translation  @Taoist Texts

 

And the pot is not empty, there is water in it. Just no " medicinal herbs".

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, Giles said:

 which means that nobody has any real idea about what they're getting into when they sign-up.

I practice Shaolin, I had no idea what the practice would lead to and what was demanded of me.

2 hours ago, Giles said:

There's even a possibility that Mitchell himself doesn't know where he's going to end up:

 

I do not know where my practice will lead me. I have hopes, but they are different from my expectations just two years ago. 

 

Isn't that normal? 

 

[Giles]

4 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Isn't that normal? 

 

No idea.

 

I've never conducted a survey myself, nor am I aware of any existing research addressing that question.

 

[Forestgreen]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I was actually referring to the relationship betwene the Po, 

Still trying to grasp that aspect. I am less fluid in daoist than in buddhist. 

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, Giles said:

Some of it certainly appears to have been public for many years.

 

What he teaches in public is not hidden behind some veil. You are presenting it as though he is hiding his history as per the quote you cherry picked

 

Everyone who would begin studying with him would be told quite clearly where it comes from. Its on the public site for all to see

 

The methods and practices are of course not discussed openly outside of the school

 

Thats nothing unique to Damo. All systems with  degree of real potency would not be out there for just anyone

 

Neigong and Neidan are no joke.

 

Even the most experienced people can harm or even kill themeslves without the right kind of supervision and oversight

 

Exhibit A

 

 

Exhibit B

 

I too recently had a serious issue arise. Ill omit the details but I spent two weeks in a very, very bad situation, because of a simple mistake I personally made. 

 

The more qi, the more danger involved

 

If something works, there is always risk, and for that reason, the stronger the method and practice gets, the more secretive it needs to be. This is amongst other things, for safety purposes

 

Unless of course you think we should be sharing things like that openly for everyone with no evaluation? My gut tells me you've not been around practices that tend to generate a lot of qi if thats the case

 

6 minutes ago, Giles said:

Some of it (perhaps even the majority of it) is, in fact, shrouded in institutionalised secrecy. A fact that's clear from even a cursory examination of your own posts.

 

 

Explained above

 

Also, im one of the ones who will talk up to a line I can. I have two overalapping systems, so im able to say some things others might not be able to, without crossing any lines

 

I just dont get into methods/practices for the reasons outlined above.

 

6 minutes ago, Giles said:

This ad hominem speaks clearly not only to your own character but also to that of your teacher.

 

Its not a personal attack.  You are being dishonest here.

 

Whether its you being unaware or deliberately misleading, who knows. But thats the reality

 

You quite clearly seen Quanzhen Longmen Pa (Dragon Gate) i mentioned. And his teacher whom he was taught the methods from is named

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

If there is no true sperm in the tripod (Fu), that is like to boil empty kettle (Cheng) using water and fire. This is the best apt expression in relation to the exercises of qigong in the performance of the rotation around the circle of heaven. Without Water flowing and without the True Sperm to realize a small circle of heaven - to use  a feeling of qi is like using a fire to burn under  an empty pot. Then you can’t escape a burn-out. This circle of heaven of qigong uses the mobilization-release potential  of body and produces wastes. It's just like to speed up a car with the brakes on. The faster it will go, the more damage there will be, but it will give no benefits. Similar to this, the rotation of the circle of heaven does not do any good. The above shows the difference between a small circle in alchemy and qigong.

 

This is not a good translation

 

Like I said, the MCO is off limits for discussion from my side. Its not a part of my other practice, and im not crossing any lines

 

Only to say that what you mentioned about using a feeling of qi.

 

Not only is that not something ive not practiced, ive never even heard of it.

 

Sounds like some made up imaginary nonsense

 

 

Edited September 5 by Shadow_self

[Giles]

7 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Its not a personal attack.  You are being dishonest here.

 

And here he goes again with another ad hominem.

 

[Shadow_self]

31 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

And here he goes again with another ad hominem.

 

 

Actually, I corrected you, because you deliberately omitted the fact that a few sentances away from the quote you posted, it was mentioned exactly where the practices come from

 

Ill await your rationale for a lack of secrecy around practices and methods that could do serious harm to someone if caution is not given.

 

As @freeformmentioned, he was bleeding from every orifice in his head, when he made a slight error. I found myself in an extremly bad position also. Both were slight errors (that could happen to even the most careful people)

 

Then again

 

https://www.globalqiproject.com/eight-extraordinary-meridians-training-program/

 

When material like this is your reference point , I understand why you may not grasp what needs to be kept within a given school and what doesnt

Edited September 5 by Shadow_self

[Giles]

...

[Sahaja]

5 hours ago, Antares said:

If I am not mistaken he teaches the work with MCO as seated meditation and trying to open it with the use of breath and attention. BTW he teaches qigong MCO. I dont think this is a good choice to read.  I would even say to avoid it by all means 

Am curious what you mean by qi gong MCO. 

 

does it include the following?

1. The physical establishing of the circuit
2. The rotation of Qi
a. ‘neutral’ Qi

b. Yang Qi
c. Yin Qi
3. The rotation of congenital fluid
a. Ding fluid
b. marrow washing
4. The rotation of light
a. refracted
b. pure
5. The rotation of the alchemical pill

 

I think these are what is in his definition of the MCO. 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

3 hours ago, Antares said:

If there is no true sperm in the tripod (Fu), that is like to boil empty kettle (Cheng) using water and fire. /...  .../ Without Water flowing and without the True Sperm to realize a small circle of heaven - to use  a feeling of qi is like using a fire to burn under  an empty pot. 

I'm not sure that is a full quote and a good translation  @Taoist Texts

yes, as usual this here is a garbled misunderstanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuzhen_pian

the quote comes WZP, the full 5/2th verse of it says:

 

Quote

 

五
咽津纳气是人行，有物方能万物生。

swallowing saliva, intaking qi - that's what people practice, having the thing can birth a myriad things

鼎内若无真种子，犹将水火煮空铛。

if in the tripod there is no true seed, it is like boiling on fire an empty kettle with nothing but water in it.

 

so to list just a couple common errors here, this verse contains no...:

1 no 'true sperm' - 'true seed' instead

2 no negation of qigong - qigong results are affirmed instead

3 no damage to the 'kettle - ' - just useless instead

53 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

As @freeformmentioned, he was bleeding from every orifice in his head, when he made a slight error.

oh noes! was he been practicing by the book that ? i heard that can be so bigly dangerous! if only he had a realest truest secretest linage teacher to guide him.... 

[Giles]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh noes! was he been practicing by the book that ? i heard that can be so bigly dangerous! if only he had a realest truest secretest linage teacher to guide him.... 

 

 

 

[Forestgreen]

7 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

so to list just a couple common errors here, this verse contains no...:

1 no 'true sperm' - 'true seed' instead

 

Since my chinese is seriously lacking: No reference to the fabled yuan jing?

[Antares]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Sounds like some made up imaginary nonsense

This is excerpt from the book of WLP Patriarch The Teacher of Single Yang, but you are right in re to translation. I mean translation from Chinese was ok but somebody from Russian WLP branch made bad translation into English years ago so I left it as it is. Most important thing here is the idea behind it. 

[Forestgreen]

Words and characters transmit ideas.

Change them, and the idea transmitted will be different than what was originally intended. 

[Antares]

1 minute ago, Forestgreen said:

Words and characters transmit ideas.

Change them, and the idea transmitted will be different than what was originally intended. 

Well, in Russian seed also means smth that you plant in the garden. May be that is why the word sperm was used, BTW is not True Jing is what you get sperm from? May be you get it from plants I dont know 

[Taoist Texts]

7 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Since my chinese is seriously lacking: No reference to the fabled yuan jing?

thats right, no 元精 in this verse, nor in the entire book of WZP. 元精 was incorporated in neidan nomenclature much later circa 16 century, although as a stable term appears already in 100 AD.

[Forestgreen]

2 minutes ago, Antares said:

 May be that is why the word sperm was used, BTW is not True Jing is what you get sperm from? 

My point would be that there is a difference between a translation of a text and an interpretation of a text, the later is normally designed as a commentary. 

 

And, did the author intend it to be a reference to yuan jing?

Or to something else? 

Something that the term "yuan jing" doesn't really cover? 

[Antares]

12 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Something that the term "yuan jing" doesn't really cover? 

Quote

Qui Xifan said: "True Water is inside Water; True Fire is inside Fire, if Fire and Water are connected, you will never get old”. “Water has the ability to flow down; Fire has the ability to flame up. You can experience it in the body."

After the All-Wise will make a Basis of the elixir Danmu (this is precisely the True Sperm), then in the body a True Water stream naturally arises and it becomes possible to verify the words of Mr. Qui. This True Water rises through the channel Dumai, passes Nivan, reaches Magpie Bridge, gets down to the Many-tier Tower and through the channel Renmai directly sinks into the lower dantian. This stream through two channels, Ren and Du is called an alchemical Heaven of small circle. And this is always happened in such a way with to each man who was melting the elixir and perfecting the Tao, it has a scientific repeatability.

On the other hand in Qigong there is not anything, of what can be called " a medicinal substance Yao, oven and a tripod Lu Ting, periods of Fire Hohou" and in the flow through two channels, Ren and Du only the movement of qi is present, there is no True Water, True Sperm and moreover it is meaningless to talk about production of elixir. Also in qigong every practitioner is guided only by their own subjective experience of feeling the flow of qi in the small heaven circle, and each of them has different reactions in the body. There is no repeatability.

 

[Forestgreen]

The flow through Du and Ren?

Danmu = True Sperm?

True Fire is inside Fire?

 

That is an interesting interpretation of the process and the components in it. 

 

I prefer the NeiJingTu model.

 

Is this translated by the same team that translated the other quote from chinese to russian to english?

 

Edited September 5 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh noes! was he been practicing by the book that ? i heard that can be so bigly dangerous!

 

He didnt mention what he was doing only that it went wrong. I can tell you from my own experience that when it does go wrong, and it can do, especially in my case whilst my teacher was on retreat (not Damo)

 

It was not fun. Two weeks of absolute hell

 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

if only he had a realest truest secretest linage teacher to guide him.... 

 

 

If I recall there was a raft of neidan phenomena that I tried discussing with you, only to realize you werent willing to get into it

 

Are we ready to talk about the physiological changes from the "empty room makes white" yet my friend?

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

I practice Shaolin, I had no idea what the practice would lead to and what was demanded of me.

I do not know where my practice will lead me. I have hopes, but they are different from my expectations just two years ago. 

 

Isn't that normal? 

 

Well things are  unusually linear from where I sit, but, theres always room for something to change

 

Speaking of practice

 

Heres one of the practices said individual espouses and indeed recommended to another member on here

 

https://www.globalqiproject.com/eight-extraordinary-meridians-training-program/

 

Quote

You are going to create a Ba Gua around your navel. This is most important because it acts as a net or web to gather and collect your energy at your center. Looking down at your navel, imagine it is a clock-face, with the navel as the center - 12 o’clock at the top, 3 o’clock to your left-hand side, 6 o’clock at the bottom, and 9 o’clock on your right-hand side. Place a finger on your abdomen 3 inches/7.5 cm above your navel at 12 o’clock. Imagine you are drawing with a soft, thick, felt-tip pen of your favourite color. Think of this as your mind-pen. All of the eight lines on this octagon are about 2.5 inches/6 cm long. To get to the starting position of this top line, from 12 o’clock come back to your right about 1.25 inches/3 cm. Line 1. With the tip of your finger go from right to left and draw a horizontal line across the top of your abdomen. Line 2. Moving in a clockwise direction draw another line diagonally downwards. Line 3. Next, draw a line vertically down, from top to bottom, on the left side, at the 3 o’clock position.Line 4. Then, angle diagonally inward and down. Line 5. Next, draw a line horizontally across the bottom of your abdomen from your left to right at the six o’clock position. Line 6. Then, angle diagonally up towards the right. Line 7. Draw vertically up, from bottom to top, at the 9 o’clock position. Line 8. Finally, angle diagonally inwards and upwards, to join the right side starting position of the original horizontal line across the top. You have now completed the first and outer-most octagon of the Ba Gua.

 

@Forestgreen, im curious. 

 

Where do you think something like that would lead one exactly??

 

 

Edited September 5 by Shadow_self