The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Forestgreen]

Yes, it has been debated, for over a millenia. 

Gives buddhists something to do between meditation sittings.

[Chang dao ling]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

It isnt. Its a modern misrepresentation of one method from  the original system that the buddha used though.

Which buddist system you belongs to? 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

What is your source for that? 

 

Dhammakaya is not close to the original practice, nor does the original practice have any tantric or alchemical practices.

 

Practices are all wide open in the Suttas of the Pali Canon ( Bhikkhu Bodhi has some good translations on these ) and it's what is practiced in Burmese/Sri Lanka/Thai monasteries.

There are good commentaries as well.

 

You best bets are visiting the area or calling the embassies of these countries and ask them if they have someone who teaches the dhamma close to where you live.

 

If however you are more interested in super-top-secret sects which claim otherwise and secret books from amazon.com, TDB is the right place 😁

Edited September 6 by snowymountains

[Giles]

5 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

Which buddist system you belongs to? 

 

A "biggly secret" one... 🤣

 

[Forestgreen]

Just now, snowymountains said:

 

 

Practices are all wide open in the Suttas of the Pali Canon ( Bhikkhu Bodhi has some good translations on these ) and it's what is practiced in Burmese/Sri Lanka/Thai monasteries.

You disagree with those who claim that the above are the result of waves of reformed practice? 

[snowymountains]

Just now, Forestgreen said:

You disagree with those who claim that the above are the result of waves of reformed practice? 

 

Clearly, but they're free to believe they've found the super secret hen that makes the super top secret golden eggs.

[Giles]

Does it really matter?

 

There are as many different versions of "Buddhism" nowadays as there are drops of water in the oceans because the Buddha decided that there should be no written recording made.

 

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am talking about 'white born in empty room' it is a watershed event in my ND, the name is known, the details are highly secret. not sure if it is the same you talk about?

 

Secret? That depends.

 

Ive seen some of the details mentioned, but not that specific physiological transformation

 

Its pretty objective though, so I dont think someone touches that state without some level of transformation, even if it is not stable at first

[Forestgreen]

The reformations are historically documented. 

 

The question is if the reforms made the practice return to a more original state, or not. 

(I do belive that what I do differs from what the original buddhist sangha practiced,  but that is my opinion.)

[Chang dao ling]

8 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Dhammakaya is not close to the original practice, nor does the original practice have any tantric or alchemical practices.

Than What is original practice? Padmasambhava taught Tantric practices 

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

Which buddist system you belongs to? 

 

One thats not public  

 

Which seems to greatly bother a certain cohort of people who like to tell themselves everything is 

 

Eh, whatever helps them sleep easier at night  

[Giles]

9 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

Than What is original practice?

 

 

Good luck with finding the answer to that question.

 

Be sure to let me know if you succeed because I spent several years on it myself and, although it was a useful and interesting exercise and I met some fascinating people, I never succeeded in establishing a definitive answer.

 

Edited September 6 by Giles

[Chang dao ling]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

One thats not public

I see. If its ok with you can tell how did you find and join? I heard there many different closed door buddist systems in india and china. Li hongzi ( founder of falun gong) said he belongs to closed door buddist system in china which exists before buddha 

[Chang dao ling]

7 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

Good luck with finding the answer to that question.

 

Be sure to let me know if you succeed because I spent several years on it myself and, although it was a useful and interesting exercise and I met some fascinating people, I never succeeded in establishing a definitive answer.

 

What's your opinion on dhammakya meditation? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luang_Pu_Sodh_Candasaro

Edited September 6 by Chang dao ling

[Nintendao]

7 hours ago, Antares said:

He states that he does it but in fact... as an example

He talks a lot about how to use breath and post heaven Wu-Xing (metal - lungs for example) and from what I can see he teaches qigong with some elements of neigong plus seated meditations. I would not say it is harmful but it is very questionable how he is getting True Water and True Fire to activate the alchemical MCO. May be there is smth he does not teach openly but I can't see anything from real neigong/neidan in what he teaches in his books or youtube videos. 

 

have you watched the entire series?

https://damomitchell.com/2020/03/23/microcosmic-orbit/

[Giles]

Just now, Chang dao ling said:

I see. If its ok with you can tell how did you find and join? I heard there many different closed door buddist systems in india and china. Li hongzi ( founder of falun gong) said he belongs to closed door buddist system in china which exists before buddha

 

 

The problem here is that Buddha made the cardinal mistake of leaving the door wide open to the appeals to [his] authority fallacy.

 

[snowymountains]

16 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

Than What is original practice? Padmasambhava taught Tantric practices 

 

Tantric practices came out much later than the Buddha's time. The original practice is an interesting question, Bhante Sujato, Bhikkhu Analayo have written some interesting texts on that.

You can also contact a Bhikkhu via the means mentioned above and they can also share the history of the practice.

[Giles]

2 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

What's your opinion on dhammakya meditation? 

 

My opinion it is that is that it may or may appear to work for you as an individual in terms of leading to a glimpse of the ultimate really.

 

However, if it does it will be through the mechanism of Grace rather than by the application of any  particular method.

 

[Forestgreen]

8 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

My opinion it is that is that it may or may appear to work for you as an individual in terms of leading to a glimpse of the ultimate really.

 

That seems to be true for any method. 

[Shadow_self]

13 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

 If its ok with you can tell how did you find and join?

IWhat I can say is, theres links from Europe if you know where to look

 

13 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

I heard there many different closed door buddist systems

 

Yes, in all variants (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana)

 

13 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

in india and china.

 

Depends on the variant

 

For Theravada it would be place like Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, and Myanmar

[Giles]

4 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

That seems to be true for any method. 

 

Indeed.

 

The Vijñānabhairava tantra makes that very point, albeit in a slightly obscure way.

 

[snowymountains]

13 minutes ago, Giles said:

However, if it does it will be through the mechanism of Grace rather than by the application of any  particular method.

 

True but it can also happen from Christianity or a tribal religion. Correctness does not matter for Grace but that's a separate question to whether Dhammakaya is close to the original practice.

[snowymountains]

24 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

The problem here is that Buddha made the cardinal mistake of leaving the door wide open to the appeals to [his] authority fallacy.

 

 

Well, in Christianity some not-too-positive stuff happened because of a central authority claiming direct lineage to St. Peter. Ultimately both options have their +s and -s as we've seen from the outcomes of different coin flips

[Giles]

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

True but it can also happen from Christianity or a tribal religion.

 

Grace doesn't happen from anything. It's always there for everyone because that's Its nature (Love/Ānanda).

 

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Correctness does not matter for Grace but that's a separate question to whether Dhammakaya is close to the original practice.

 

Yes. Separate and, albeit merely from my perspective, irrelevant.

 

Edited September 6 by Giles

[Giles]

1 minute ago, snowymountains said:

 

Well, in Christianity some not-too-positive stuff happened because of a central authority claiming direct lineage to St. Peter. Ultimately both options have their +s and -s as we've seen from the outcomes of different coin flips

 

 

I'm not here either to defend or to badmouth Christianity. I was brought up in a Christian environment and the version of it that I learned was absolutely invaluable to me. However, on the flipside, I've seen versions of Christianity that have destroyed the children who imbibed it.