The ultimate goal of Neidan

[snowymountains]

22 hours ago, Apech said:

 

There was at one time but it was largely purged - though traces remain.

 

 

 

It was reformed because those practices emerged much later than the Buddha. So they reformed in order to practice as the Buddha taught.

 

Theravada is thus close to the original practice, in the whole area.

 

It's ordained Theravada monks who define Theravada practice, not the fantasy of someone who posts in TDB.

[snowymountains]

On 06/09/2024 at 10:52 PM, Forestgreen said:

So, in the days before they were reformed away, would borat dude been considered theravada or a heretic? 

Not after, because in a political struggle the winner writes the history, but before?

 

Is theravada orthodoxy defined by practice, or by which scriptures one base ones interpretation of reality on?

I have only read about the interpretative discussions between different buddhist schools, not about differences in practice. 

 

Some of the buddhist alchemical work would fit very well within the frame of dhyana practice and samma sati. Most likely, some practices do not, but those are outside of my direct experience. 

 

I believe that some of the reformed methods no longer use dhyana to the same extant. Didn't the buddha teach dhyana? 

Are dhyana practicing theravada monks heretic?

 

Are theravadin that use the abhidhamma as a support for their practice heretics?

They claim support in the suttas, but agree that many of the ideas are later developments.

 

Will the real theravadin please stand up (and join my shaolin sect, it will be fun!).

 

It's getting complicated, and since I do not identify as a theravada buddhist, it really doesn't matter to me. Just flapping my lips in the wind. 

 

And quite a few of these "secret" practices are not secret, they appear in publicly available material. It is just that few are taught what they mean, and few bother with practicing them.

 

 

 

It's would take a long post to respond to everything eg the history of abhidhama would need pages, which unfortunately I don't have time for.

Note though that the Suttas contain all the practices.

So, no they won't agree many of their practices are later developments, because they aren't.

 

 

The short answer is though the borat dude started to exist long after Buddha's times and thus these practices are not part of Theravada.

He can practice whatevs he wants ofc, it's not illegal, it's just not Theravada.

 

The best way to see how practice was formed is to both find a Bhikkhu to discuss how practice was preserved in the area, throughout wars, political changes etc, how the preserved practice is what's practiced today in Theravada and also read scholars on the origins of abhidhama ( the scholars may not agree on the abhidhama origins btw but do agree tantric practices came out much later than the Buddha ).

Edited September 8 by snowymountains

[Apech]

44 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

 

It was reformed because those practices emerged much later than the Buddha. So they reformed in order to practice as the Buddha taught.

 

Theravada is thus close to the original practice, in the whole area.

 

It's ordained Theravada monks who define Theravada practice, not the fantasy of someone who posts in TDB.

Such is their propaganda of course.

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

The short answer is though the borat dude started to exist long after Buddha's times and thus these practices are not part of Theravada.

He can practice whatevs he wants ofc, it's not illegal, it's just not Theravada.

I believe, since reforms often are politically motivated, that some practices were highly unencouraged.

 

Paul Dennison writes that his teacher didn't dare to teach jhana openly, because the reformed theravada tradition didn't approve.  But, he also relates jhana to yogavacara, so technically not theravada?

Edited September 8 by Forestgreen
Added stuff.

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

 

It's ordained Theravada monks who define Theravada practice, 

Of course, borat dude were ordained...

 

But, really, I actually agree on this.

If one want to use a brand name, one should stick to the rules and stay true to the brand.

Or start a new tradition.

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Such is their propaganda of course.

 

Thank God in TBD we now the real truth and can redefine Theravada according to fantasies 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Such is their propaganda of course.

 

Given some of the responses in this thread, you can clearly see it has, and continues to be quite effective

 

 

 

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

I believe, since reforms often are politically motivated, that some practices were highly unencouraged.

 

Paul Dennison writes that his teacher didn't dare to teach jhana openly, because the reformed theravada tradition didn't approve.  But, he also relates jhana to yogavacara, so technically not theravada?

 

Jhana practice is actually very common in Theravada.

Honestly the best route to learn Theravada is to engage in a relationship with a Theravada Bhikkhu where you live and/or visit the area, the route of TBD fantasies and hearsay is really very removed from reality.

[snowymountains]

Just now, Shadow_self said:

 

Given some of the responses in this thread, you can clearly see it has, and continues to be quite effective

 

 

 

But you are here to save us with super secret links from amazon 😁👍❤️

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

Of course, borat dude were ordained...

 

But, really, I actually agree on this.

If one want to use a brand name, one should stick to the rules and stay true to the brand.

Or start a new tradition.

 

The history of the original practice how it was transferred between regions during wars etc is very interesting, Bhikkhus typically discuss this when asked.

The borat dude was not ordained in the original practice, which is the main practice today, instead he was in practices which are known to have emerged much after the Buddha, like tantra which came out much later.

 

Exactly, it's not illegal to practice or teach anything.

The issue is confined in calling this Theravada, when it's not.

Other than that, anyone's free to practice whatever they like and ofc this can include practices that came much later than the Buddha.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

I believe, since reforms often are politically motivated, that some practices were highly unencouraged.

 

They basically made the tradition unworkable in terms of achieving its intended aim

 

 

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

Paul Dennison writes that his teacher didn't dare to teach jhana openly, because the reformed theravada tradition didn't approve.  But, he also relates jhana to yogavacara, so technically not theravada?

 

Jhana isnt t  taught openly to be perfectly honest. Lots of people say it is. But it is not

 

Whoever thinks it is, is sadly mistaken im afraid

[Shadow_self]

 

1 hour ago, Forestgreen said:

Or start a new tradition.

I think  you'll find the strategy in this case was to reform an old one

 

[Forestgreen]

20 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I think  you'll find the strategy in this case was to reform an old one

 

Take over the brand, sell new stuff, classic strategy.

[forestofclarity]

8 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Using meditation or even enlightenment to heal the Plantar Fascia (base of feet tissue) don't work or don't work well.

 

I'm not sure about that either. Zhiyi used to prescribe meditation for health issues, and some Theravada Buddhists do as well. However, my main area of experience is Tibetan Buddhism. There are physical signs related to specific practices, and there are healing, long life practices, and other practices as well. What these signs are are kept hidden, mainly to prevent people from forming wrong ideas. They don't work like other practices, however. 

 

9 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Your examples happen to exactly reflect the Taoist view. 

 

Many online Daoists (and Buddhists) seem to have missed that lesson, despite claiming high levels of enlightenment.  

[snowymountains]

4 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Take over the brand, sell new stuff, classic strategy.

Yes but the new stuff was those practices that were invented long after the Buddha, they wanted to hijack the Theravada name.

The reform to practice as the Buddha taught was the exact opposite.

[Forestgreen]

8 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

Yes but the new stuff was those practices that were invented long after 

This sentence would fit into daoist tradition as well. 

 

[snowymountains]

Just now, Forestgreen said:

This sentence would fit into daoist tradition as well. 

 

Could be, I know only very little about Daoism tbh, so don't really have a view on that.

[Forestgreen]

Neidan is a complete mess.

[snowymountains]

11 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Neidan is a complete mess.

 

Maybe it is, I wouldn't know tbh.

For me question is perhaps similar to the OPs, as the end goal does seem similar to (Theravada) Buddhism, I see no reason to practice it.

What does look like a mess to me is not Neidan itself, because I don't know about that, it's tracing lineage and separating the weed from the chaff on teachers of Neidan.

So, I prefer to keep things simple, in Theravada I've found someone who is ordained, senior, very knowledgeable and kind, whom I'm happy to work with, so for me it makes sense to continue in that path.

Qigong looks more interesting to me tbh as it's more about general well being if you like and different altogether and thus non-conflicting with what I practice.

Edited September 8 by snowymountains

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Take over the brand, sell new stuff, classic strategy.

 

Lets not forget the recruitment of proselytizers. 

 

Dogmatism is a key feature of most organized religions after all

 

[snowymountains]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Lets not forget the recruitment of proselytizers. 

 

Dogmatism is a key feature of most organized religions after all

 

 

Dude throwing mud left and right is low, or did you read that in those super-duper secrets from amazon.com ?

[doc benway]

48 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

Neidan is a complete mess.

 

Hanging out here one might reasonably conclude the ultimate goal of neidan is to piss off Dao Bums!

[Chang dao ling]

9 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Neidan is a complete mess.

No, but fake teachers makes it complete mess. 

For example teachers like Damo, Rudi,neithan clearly explained neidan. you can Rudi's answers to various questions in this form 

[Chang dao ling]

8 hours ago, doc benway said:

Hanging out here one might reasonably conclude the ultimate goal of neidan is to piss off Dao Bums!

What an enlightening quote 😂 

[Forestgreen]

20 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

, Rudi/... .../ clearly explained neidan. you can Rudi's answers to various questions in this form 

Does Rudi clearly explain neidan on this forum? 

Where?