The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Apech]

58 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

thanks, always valuable to see an issue from an outside prospective. my experience has been different though

without concrete details hard to tell whats going on and who is deluded;)

from my POV it is wrong because it is materialism since the physical body is material. 

All matter is energy.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

from my POV it is wrong because it is materialism since the physical body is material. 

 

The point here isnt to make physical change.

 

The point is the change occurs at a higher level, and as a result, it cascades downward into the physical

 

In fact, within the schools im familiar with - no physical transformation = no true progress

[Forestgreen]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The point is the change occurs at a higher level, and as a result, it cascades downward into the physical

How does one separate this from methods that create physical changes, but have little-to-none effect on other levels? 

[Giles]

On 13/07/2024 at 8:32 PM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

For a serious Theravadin, his goal is very clear and singular - to reach Nibbana. There are no vague secondary goals, everything else is not nearly on the same level of importance. I know it's common to have "better rebirth" as a goal while claiming to be a Theravadin, but that's a much inferior goal than striving for Nibbana, a serious Theravadin would not have such a goal.

 

For a serious Neidanist, what is such a goal? To achieve Siddhis? What problem does that solve? One still goes up and down in Samsara after developing powerful Siddhis like dematerialization.

 

Here's an example of what I mean - a person who can enter 4th Jhana at will may go to the highest rupa Brahma realm after death and enjoy a life span of 16,000 Kalpas (each Kalpa is the age of the universe) of sublime bliss, but that's not really useful in the large scheme of things, because it doesn't last - he would fall back down again eventually, and 16,000 universe cycles is but a blink of an eye in this eternal game of Samsara.

 

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heaven. Yes, it's a realm filled with luxuries unfathomable to us humans, but it's only the second-lowest heaven, there are many higher Deva & Brahma heavens above it. But more importantly, as I mentioned above, even an existence in the highest Brahma heavens aren't really that desirable, let alone one in a Deva heaven.

 

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world, even the universe itself will end one day. Yes, some beings live extremely long lives - e.g. a being born into the highest Arupa realm (the 8th Jhana heaven of "neither perception nor non-perception") can live for 84,000 universe-cycles. That's mind-bogglingly long, but that's still not immortal. It will die and come back down to (often much) lower planes.

 

Or is the goal to achieve "spiritual growth"? That's a vague term to me. What exactly does that mean? Growth towards what end?

 

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice. I'm guess it's a popular to claim to have no goals especially in the Daoist traditions, due to the concept of "wu wei", but if a person has no goals, why even practice? 

 

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

 

 

An excellent question. 👍🏻😊

 

Unfortunately, this thread has expanded to the extent that I don't have the time to read through it all, so can I ask you if you've yet received a satisfactory answer because, if not, I'll attempt to provide it for you.

 

[Giles]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

All matter is energy.

 

It would be more accurate to state that all matter is chi/qi.

 

Qi is more than energy because, for example, qi also consists of information.

 

[Forestgreen]

Matter = information? 

[Apech]

39 minutes ago, Giles said:

 

It would be more accurate to state that all matter is chi/qi.

 

Qi is more than energy because, for example, qi also consists of information.

 

 

Yes I agree - something like intelligent energy - or information conveying energy - just as light has spectral information perhaps.  It is quite difficult to pin down in definition and these are just words around the subject.

 

 

[Apech]

16 hours ago, snowymountains said:

 

There's no tantra in Theravada, all religions have heresies and/or small sects

 

There was at one time but it was largely purged - though traces remain.

 

 

[Master Logray]

On 7/14/2024 at 3:32 AM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

For a serious Theravadin, his goal is very clear and singular - to reach Nibbana. There are no vague secondary goals, everything else is not nearly on the same level of importance. I know it's common to have "better rebirth" as a goal while claiming to be a Theravadin, but that's a much inferior goal than striving for Nibbana, a serious Theravadin would not have such a goal.

 

For a serious Neidanist, what is such a goal? To achieve Siddhis? What problem does that solve? One still goes up and down in Samsara after developing powerful Siddhis like dematerialization.

 

Here's an example of what I mean - a person who can enter 4th Jhana at will may go to the highest rupa Brahma realm after death and enjoy a life span of 16,000 Kalpas (each Kalpa is the age of the universe) of sublime bliss, but that's not really useful in the large scheme of things, because it doesn't last - he would fall back down again eventually, and 16,000 universe cycles is but a blink of an eye in this eternal game of Samsara.

 

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heaven. Yes, it's a realm filled with luxuries unfathomable to us humans, but it's only the second-lowest heaven, there are many higher Deva & Brahma heavens above it. But more importantly, as I mentioned above, even an existence in the highest Brahma heavens aren't really that desirable, let alone one in a Deva heaven.

 

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world, even the universe itself will end one day. Yes, some beings live extremely long lives - e.g. a being born into the highest Arupa realm (the 8th Jhana heaven of "neither perception nor non-perception") can live for 84,000 universe-cycles. That's mind-bogglingly long, but that's still not immortal. It will die and come back down to (often much) lower planes.

 

Or is the goal to achieve "spiritual growth"? That's a vague term to me. What exactly does that mean? Growth towards what end?

 

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice. I'm guess it's a popular to claim to have no goals especially in the Daoist traditions, due to the concept of "wu wei", but if a person has no goals, why even practice? 

 

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

 

 

@Giles brings back this post.  What you are asking have been debated numerous times for centuries.  Taoist viewpoint doesn't reject claims that their practices produced results that are lower to middle in Buddhist system (Chinese).   Their counter argument is that, the Buddhist way promises a lot, but you never know it can deliver or not until after your death (similar to other religions).   But human life is so short, does one really have the time to achieve the objectives when one's mind is troubling, body is in constant pain and engaged in worldly affairs and obligations?  Therefore it becomes a multiple-lives task that there is no certainty the person can follow through or most unlikely continue in same vigour?   And the emptiness meditation (stubborn emptiness) seldom works.

 

While Taoist Neidan stresses on "This Life".  The cultivation towards Tao must produce results, concrete ones within this lifetime; and this life must be prolonged as lengthy as possible and must also be in excellent condition.  Otherwise no cultivation is really possible.  Only with this "Vehicle" or modern day "Platform" intact, a cultivator can achieve high end spiritual purposes. It is why the connotation "Immortal" and the translated name comes up.   The measurements are like fading away of long term illnesses, tight and naturally shining skin, return of male potency, a general sense of well-being, regrow of hair and even teeth, blood becomes white, pupils become square.  Special powers e.g. seeing lights, angels and demons are considered as tricks of the conscious mind.  

 

 

[Chang dao ling]

3 hours ago, Giles said:

Qi is more than energy because, for example, qi also consists of information

Yes extremely high level qi has consciousness also according cho kaka sui ( founder of pranic healing and student of padmasambhava)

[Chang dao ling]

7 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

blood becomes white

Interesting, jain religion founder Mahavira possess white blood. 

What is the significance of white blood in Taoism?

[Chang dao ling]

5 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

n fact, within the schools im familiar with - no physical transformation = no true progress

Yes exactly I heard from a friend he visits a yogi in north india he looks like 54 years old but his real age is 107 when my friend asked how's this possible he said " physical transformation via meditation" ( hata yoga)

[Master Logray]

38 minutes ago, Chang dao ling said:

Interesting, jain religion founder Mahavira possess white blood. 

What is the significance of white blood in Taoism?

 

It is a sign only. 

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The point here isnt to make physical change.The point is the change occurs at a higher level, and as a result, it cascades downward into the physical In fact, within the schools im familiar with - no physical transformation = no true progress

thats not what you said before . before you did insist that the phys change is the point. but even if you move goalposts like that, still it is wrong,  if phys is involved at all - still it is materialism. 

8 hours ago, Apech said:

All matter is energy.

thats true. we can redefine it like that. but it is such an energy thats unsuitable for our purposes. because it is yin energy.

[Shadow_self]

15 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

thats not what you said before . before you did insist that the phys change is the point. but even if you move goalposts like that, still it is wrong,  if phys is involved at all - still it is materialism. 

thats true. we can redefine it like that. but it is such an energy thats unsuitable for our purposes. because it is yin energy.

 

Im sorry TT but thats not true.

 

What i said was if the transformation is stable and permanent, then it should be present physically.

 

In fact, this is how it is confirmed

 

Its absolutely not the point.

 

However, the development im talking about is required for progress.

 

The  physical change is just a manifestation that the development has occured.

 

Please be honest when you engage. If theres something Ive said thats unclear. Ask and Ill be happy to clear it up

[Shadow_self]

46 minutes ago, Forestgreen said:

How does one separate this from methods that create physical changes, but have little-to-none effect on other levels? 

 

Its how strong the energetic bridge  is that dictates how much impact it will have on the other levels

 

One can sit and do as much practice as they want, or conversely do as much strenous physical work as they like

 

If the bridge is broken or not connected, you wont be getting from A to B in the way required (which is why the effect doesnt transfer)

 

For example, a person with the right internals can release the mind via the body, or the body via the mind.

 

Its just a matter of making sure the bridge is correctly set up

 

This is (and im sorry to say) why many top down and conciousness based systems are lacking in transformational results

 

Only those with the karma to , seem to be able to work them to the extent needed. and its far less  than one would care to think

 

Does that mean someone cannot derive benefit from the practice? Absolutely not.

 

Does it mean they wont be able to take the practice to the fullest potential?

 

Yes as far as I am aware

 

[Shadow_self]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

There was at one time but it was largely purged - though traces remain.

 

 

 

Yes, its only pockets now sadly, and not easily accessed

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

Interesting, jain religion founder Mahavira possess white blood. 

What is the significance of white blood in Taoism?

 

https://fiveimmortals.com/wudang-tao/wudang-internal/internal-alchemy/

 

Quote

Some people say ‘in one hundred days one can lay a foundation’, what a joke. It is even better to say seven days is sufficient; this is an example and a process. Anyone saying they can open the small or large cosmic orbit in one hundred days, has lost it. There is no need as the meridian circulation is already unimpeded, otherwise people would be turned into vegetables.

Some people say ‘I have already opened the cosmic orbit- the complete Qi circulation’, others will ask you ‘What you now say here is of what use over there?’ If anyone claims to have achieved this goal but as a woman still has breast and menstruation, as a man still has large genitals, they are cheaters. Their blood should have turned white and they should not have to go to the toilet anymore nor depend on mouth or nose breathing.If they mouth and nose are covered where does the breath and oxygen come from? Embryonic breathing. Their molecules have already transmuted

 

Pay particular attention to what is said in the last line in bold

 

Now have a think about what I said when I mentioned a non-public pratice that involves moving away from food, and consider why it isnt public.

 

Its about changing the metabolic system entirely

 

These types of things do literally change you. More changes that people realise, or would be comfortable to know

 

Though thats not something that happens overnight, and requires various other things to support it

[johndoe2012]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

@Giles brings back this post.  What you are asking have been debated numerous times for centuries.  Taoist viewpoint doesn't reject claims that their practices produced results that are lower to middle in Buddhist system (Chinese).   Their counter argument is that, the Buddhist way promises a lot, but you never know it can deliver or not until after your death (similar to other religions).   But human life is so short, does one really have the time to achieve the objectives when one's mind is troubling, body is in constant pain and engaged in worldly affairs and obligations?  Therefore it becomes a multiple-lives task that there is no certainty the person can follow through or most unlikely continue in same vigour?   And the emptiness meditation (stubborn emptiness) seldom works.

 

While Taoist Neidan stresses on "This Life".  The cultivation towards Tao must produce results, concrete ones within this lifetime; and this life must be prolonged as lengthy as possible and must also be in excellent condition.  Otherwise no cultivation is really possible.  Only with this "Vehicle" or modern day "Platform" intact, a cultivator can achieve high end spiritual purposes. It is why the connotation "Immortal" and the translated name comes up.   The measurements are like fading away of long term illnesses, tight and naturally shining skin, return of male potency, a general sense of well-being, regrow of hair and even teeth, blood becomes white, pupils become square.  Special powers e.g. seeing lights, angels and demons are considered as tricks of the conscious mind.  

 

 

 

You are talking about Sutra Buddhism which can go on for life times. 

 

Now we have Tantra, Mahamudra and Dzogchen which are faster paths. 

 

From "Modern Buddhism: The Path of Compassion and Wisdom - Volume 2 Tantra" by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso

 

Quote

There are many different levels of purifying our mind. The subtle mistaken appearance of our mind cannot be purified through the practice of Sutra alone; we need to engage in the practice of Highest Yoga Tantra.

 

 

[forestofclarity]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Their counter argument is that, the Buddhist way promises a lot, but you never know it can deliver or not until after your death (similar to other religions).

 

I would suggest this is not the case. You laid out some Daoist results, here are some of the more public Buddhist ones: decline in suffering, decline in craving/aversion, decline in feeling numb, decline in ego reactivity, increase in compassion, increase in loving kindness, increase in equanimity, increase in joy. 

 

A lot of this has been and continues to be confirmed in growing scientific and research literature, so it is certainly not speculation. Brain experts have informed me that the brain changes due to meditation practice and often permanent, surviving even degenerative brain diseases, prompting more and more to attend and learn meditation practices. 

 

So this idea that the mind and body are separate doesn't make sense to me. One might argue as to whether the body is condensed mind or the mind is subtle matter, but they are quite connected. 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

Ask and Ill be happy to clear it up

oh i understand you perfectly because what you are saying was documented in my texts for centuries.  and what you are saying is counter to what i am doing.

there are 3600 dead-end sects in the world.

they all have 2 main things in common: 1 they are based on physicality 2 they are bizarre (miracles, phys changes, ushnisha, horse seal, innards or external lighting up, square irises, cow tipping etc)

In my sect we have 2 sayings that distinguishes us from them: 1 if it is visible - it is not usable. 2 our dao is not bizarre ( 奇        qí    strange; odd; weird; wonderful; surprising, unusual)

[Shadow_self]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i understand you perfectly because what you are saying was documented in my texts for centuries.  and what you are saying is counter to what i am doing.

there are 3600 dead-end sects in the world.

they all have 2 main things in common: 1 they are based on physicality 2 they are bizarre (miracles, phys changes, ushnisha, horse seal, innards or external lighting up, square irises, cow tipping etc)

In my sect we have 2 sayings that distinguishes us from them: 1 if it is visible - it is not usable. 2 our dao is not bizarre ( 奇        qí    strange; odd; weird; wonderful; surprising, unusual)

 

What im talking about isn't written in any texts

 

But tell me, exactly what this change is and prove me wrong, please.

 

Im literally begging you

 

It seems to me, you dont  actually know what the physical change im talking about is, so you'd rather dismiss it and pretend its fake (basically TT strategy 101)

 

No problem  Im happy to leave you belive that

Edited September 7 by Shadow_self

[Master Logray]

14 hours ago, forestofclarity said:

 

I would suggest this is not the case. You laid out some Daoist results, here are some of the more public Buddhist ones: decline in suffering, decline in craving/aversion, decline in feeling numb, decline in ego reactivity, increase in compassion, increase in loving kindness, increase in equanimity, increase in joy. 

 

A lot of this has been and continues to be confirmed in growing scientific and research literature, so it is certainly not speculation. Brain experts have informed me that the brain changes due to meditation practice and often permanent, surviving even degenerative brain diseases, prompting more and more to attend and learn meditation practices. 

 

So this idea that the mind and body are separate doesn't make sense to me. One might argue as to whether the body is condensed mind or the mind is subtle matter, but they are quite connected. 

 

 

Your examples happen to exactly reflect the Taoist view.  They are all mental/emotional results.   While Taoist are talking about physical/body results like how many wrinkles per square inch.  

 

Taoist Neidan is to be Xing/Meng join approach (i.e. Mind/Body together).  But in different stages, one precedes the other.   Using meditation or even enlightenment to heal the Plantar Fascia (base of feet tissue) don't work or don't work well.    The so called Mind/Body connection is of the higher level or philosophical.  

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

13 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

What im talking about isn't written in any texts

not sure, personally i did not read all of them;)

13 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

But tell me, exactly what this change is and prove me wrong, please. Im literally begging you It seems to me, you dont  actually know what the physical change im talking

you are totally right, i have absolutely no idea which change you are talking about;)   (except i know it is something physical and bizarre!) 

Edited September 8 by Taoist Texts

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

you are totally right, i have absolutely no idea which change you are talking about

 

I think thats clear at this point.   

 

But its ok if you dont

 

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

(except i know it is something physical and bizarre!) 

 

We've established already  the cause is not physical but is has a physical effect.

 

The change isnt physical, its further back, but it trickles down into the physical. What you see  manifesting on the physical plane is just a small part of a much greater thing

 

its disingenuous to call it a physical thing, because the fact of the matter is the physical aspect of it is just a sign that the transformation has bridged the gap and stabilized 

 

Heres an apt representation. Consider the water the line between physical and non physical

 

 

14 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i understand you perfectly

 

Im sure this isnt the case, but thats also fine

 

14 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

because what you are saying was documented in my texts for centuries.  and what you are saying is counter to what i am doing.

 

 

If you have no idea what Im talking about, and dont understand, Im pretty sure we can deduce this isnt correct

 

But no problem. We see things differently