The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Antares]

As I said teacher is the "key" to understand texts. Have you watched the Matrix movie where Neo had to find right door to get to Architect? There was the key master. Read classics like Dao De Jing in good translations 

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Antares said:

As I said teacher is the "key" to understand texts. Have you watched the Matrix movie where Neo had to find right door to get to Architect? There was the key master. Read classics like Dao De Jing in good translations 

As I've said, I read the native interpretation of the Dao De Jing rather than the mistranslated information by a non-native translator.

[Cobie]

 

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

in this line 之 refers to dao (same as ziran) …

Yes, that fits too. Interesting.

 

Quote

五伦         五倫    wǔ lún the five Confucian relationships (ruler-subject, father-son, brother-brother, husband-wife, friend-friend)

 Ah yes, now you say so I remember I heard about that before. Do you apply it in your own life? 

 

Quote

五戒 wǔjiè 1) * five prohibitions (measures to prevent crime; oath, order, prohibition, check, instruction) 2) buddhas. five vows (vows; do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not lie, do not consume wine)

thanks for the info. Yes, every society needs such rules.

 

Edited August 26 by Cobie

[Antares]

What do you mean by "native interpretation"? Who did this  interpretation? Who is your teacher? There are loads of "interpretators". Even though they are native it is not absolute understanding just because they are native.  

Edited August 26 by Antares

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

2) buddhas. five vows (vows; do not kill, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not lie, do not consume wine)

This is also known as Wu Wei(無為, no do's) in Buddhism.

[ChiDragon]

21 minutes ago, Antares said:

What do you mean by "native interpretation"? Who did this  interpretation? Who is your teacher? There are loads of "interpretators". Even though they are native it is not absolute understanding just because they are native.  

FYI I have my first hand native source to read. Other than reading second hand translation to mislead myself. I am reading a well written text book by a well known native scholar with the highest authority on the subject.

Did you have a chance to read  老子註譯及評介 written by:  陳鼓應. Peace!

Why don't you give me one line or chapter to see if it is a good translation?

Edited August 26 by ChiDragon

[Antares]

Oh, Jesus.. Come here to save us. WHO IS YOUR TEACHER? 

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Antares said:

Oh, Jesus.. Come here to save us. WHO IS YOUR TEACHER? 

I am my own teacher. I am stupid enough to be self taught from a well written textbook by a well known native scholar with the highest authority on the subject. Do you read?

Edited August 26 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

21 minutes ago, Antares said:

What do you mean by "native interpretation"? Who did this  interpretation? Who is your teacher? There are loads of "interpretators". Even though they are native it is not absolute understanding just because they are native.  

Why don't you give me one line or chapter to see if it is a good translation? Let's go from there!

PS Let's go somewhere else before this thread is contaminated by us!

Edited August 26 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, Nintendao said:

😇

wow, you have ling Qi  靈氣 ling2 qi4. 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

wow, you have ling Qi  靈氣 ling2 qi4. 

 

 

Nice one, Cobie!

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I would stay away from google for translating esoteric term from a field, philosophy or a religion… 

Yes I thought that post you are referring to, was displaying a total ignorance of Chinese characters. 
 

 

Edited August 26 by Cobie

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

… I read the native interpretation of the Dao De Jing rather than the mistranslated information by a non-native translator.

Quite right. After many, many convos (on OD), I came to appreciate your point of view. 
 

 

Edited August 26 by Cobie

[Cobie]

For me, I still like my own translations best (using my Kroll dictionary).  
 

 

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Antares said:

Oh, Jesus.. Come here to save us. WHO IS YOUR TEACHER? 

 

 

 

Edited August 27 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

@Antares

 

Chidragon, TT and one or two others on this site dont have the experience of Neidan etc or teachers or adhere to lineages like you or I do

 

They're happy going over chinese characters/ books etc (even if they're missing details we' consider important) 

 

Its best off to let them be   You will get nowhere in this argument, best to leave it 

Edited August 26 by Shadow_self

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

As I said teacher is the "key" to understand texts. Have you watched the Matrix movie where Neo had to find right door to get to Architect? There was the key master. …

Omg, it was in “the Matrix movie”, , well that proves it then. (sarcasm) 

 

 

Edited August 26 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

..

Edited August 27 by Shadow_self

[Chang dao ling]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

This is "external" part of De but this is correct. It helps to cultivate "internal" De

What system you are practicing?

[Taoist Texts]

11 hours ago, Antares said:

His "lineage" comes from self - taught lady from Taiwan who was actually banned here for bad language .

he says it like it is a bad thing 

11 hours ago, damdao said:

The meaning of 德 dé is richer and more complex than "virtue" 

For those interested in a linguistic analysis here we have a good one

https://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp235_de_character_early_China.pdf

the author is an amateur. who says that de is just like virtue so you may wanna IMHO again

Quote

https://baopu81.wordpress.com › about Scott Barnwell is a Canadian autodidact interested in ancient China, especially early Daoist philosophy.

Quote

The semantic field of both Virtus and Aretê widened as time went on, just like De, all of which came to refer to an inner strength, power or potency within all sorts of things, and in humans, “moral excellence”

 

 

11 hours ago, damdao said:

not merely as "virtue". ...The Taoist Experience, page 19.

Here is an excerpt:

"The Tao is all-pervasive; it transforms all from the beginning. Virtue

to prove that de is not merely virtue, you quote an excerpt where de is merely virtue..cool, i feel ya

10 hours ago, Antares said:

"human immortals are daoists who collected a grand power of De and who prolonged their life to  limitless...  ".

this unprofessional translator could not even properly understand this simple phrase: 人仙者，其处世大德无亏，好善乐道，安佚延年，无诸疾苦，此谓人仙也。 'human immortals live in the world with great virtue without a deficiency , love goodness and enjoy dao, extend their years in peace and leisure, all with no disease nor suffering." Great de here and everywhere is obviously  just a perfect virtuous behavior, not some kind of energy or ingredient or power. You guys are so funny making up words that are not in the original;)

8 hours ago, Cobie said:

Do you apply it in your own life? 

of course. happy wife-happy life

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

Omg, it was in “the Matrix movie”, , well that proves it then. (sarcasm) 

do you know who learns life lessons from Hollywood movies, detests to read books, looks up to teachers, and fibs now and then? Children, thats who. Its kinda endearing actually.

Edited August 27 by Taoist Texts

[Master Logray]

14 hours ago, damdao said:

The meaning of 德 dé is richer and more complex than "virtue" so, what @Antares said is correct, from certain point of view (and alchemy support that view, imo).

For those interested in a linguistic analysis here we have a good one

https://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp235_de_character_early_China.pdf

 

And, from a philosophical point of view, 德 dé was regarded as the active and creative power of the Dao since the beginning of daoism, not merely as "virtue". For more about this you can read the partial translation of Sima Chengzhen's treatise Daoti Lun or Embodimet of the Dao by Livia Kohn in her The Taoist Experience, page 19.

 

Here is an excerpt:

"The Tao is all-pervasive; it transforms all from the beginning. Virtue arises in its following; it completes all beings to their end. They thus appear in birth and the completion of life. In the world, they have two different names, yet fulfilling their activities, they return to the same ancestral ground. They are two and yet always one. They are two and yet always one. Therefore there is no Tao outside of the omnipresence of Virtue. There is no Virtue different from the completion of life through the Tao. They are one and still appear as two.
The Tao is found in endless transformation and pervasive omnipresence. Virtue shines forth in the completion of life and in
following along. They are always one; they are always two. 
Two in one, they are all-pervasive. All-pervasive, they can yet be distinguished. Thus their names are the Tao and the Virtue."

 

 

This excerpt is the most widely accepted explanation of Tao and De (not TaoDe - ethics), among academics and senior religious people.   For common people, TaoDe is merely virtues or ethics. 

 

As to how a cultivator views the world, Laozhi was probably one,  Tao is the origin of everything and De is the manifestation of Tao.  It is because Tao is just there, not moving, not acting, well - no use.  De is how the Tao manifests into myriad entities and operations of this world, according to the principles or inherent nature of the Tao.  
 

This Tao and De relationship permeates in all levels of the Inner Alchemy.   To take an example, the concepts of YuanShen (元神) the original spirit; and the Real Intention  (真意) are very important in arriving at the Mystic Gate and obtaining the Cosmic Force.   Yuan Shen behaves like the Tao and Real Intention behaves like De.   Our job is to remove everything clouding the Yuan Shen like polishing mirror everyday and always ready for the Real Intention to act anywhere anytime.

 

This cultivator worldview is not very applicable to philosophy or governance of the country or life guidelines of Taoist thinking.

 

I always find the meaning of De very difficult to grasp, despite lessons and readings.  It is only when I go deeper in cultivation then the new meanings arise and seems to start making sense.   It is not uncommon for newbie to have access to deeper understanding of the teachings only when they are ready, in modern terms, they unlock a new level.   There could be levels after levels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Antares]

4 hours ago, Chang dao ling said:

What system you are practicing?

I do some methods from 2 lineages, the first one is Daogong of Temple Style taiji and second one is secret one, I wont disclose it here, but this is very old lineage. I have got some basic methods from it. As for first one I can cite Waysun Liao' theory from his book Restoring Your Life Energy (page 31): "...the spark of pure life, our Te, that piece of God inside us...". Second lineage theory is the same one

[Antares]

13 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

Why don't you give me one line or chapter to see if it is a good translation? Let's go from there!

PS Let's go somewhere else before this thread is contaminated by us!

I read Evgeny Torchinov's translation of it. BTW he was the first teacher of Dmitry Artemyev who is the only the westerner who was initiated into Daoist neidan pai and got the methods  of southern path of neidan. Here i talk about neidan schools only not concerning any neigong schools, so Dmitry Artemyev esteemed his translations as the best ones in the West. I myself have no any knowledge of Chinese but I trust translations of Evgeny Torchinov. And to my understanding i find support of the theory in re to De I said above... The problem here you will say he is not native. But I believe no much native chinese people who know ancient Chinese well enough. For example I wonder how you understand the chapter 8 of DDJ  

Edited August 27 by Antares

[Cobie]

 

6 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… to prove that de is not merely virtue, you quote an excerpt where de is merely virtue..

Yes exactly.

 

Start Damdao’s quote:

"The Tao is all-pervasive; it transforms all from the beginning. Virtue arises in its following; it completes all beings to their end. They thus appear in birth and the completion of life. In the world, they have two different names, yet fulfilling their activities, they return to the same ancestral ground. They are two and yet always one. They are two and yet always one. Therefore there is no Tao outside of the omnipresence of Virtue. There is no Virtue different from the completion of life through the Tao. They are one and still appear as two.The Tao is found in endless transformation and pervasive omnipresence. Virtue shines forth in the completion of life and in following along. They are always one; they are always two. Two in one, they are all-pervasive. All-pervasive, they can yet be distinguished. Thus their names are the Tao and the Virtue."

End Damdao’s quote

 

Quote

of course. happy wife-happy life

Righto, that's great!

 

Edited August 27 by Cobie

[Apech]

The original meaning of virtue was manly strength - the Latin for man being vir.  Then it came to mean strength or power generally - which is the sense used by Machiavelli in the Prince.  Virtue as in saintliness and morals comes from female virtue which was about behaving properly and maintaining virginity and so on.  
 

If ‘de’ is to be translated as virtue I would suggest it is in the fist sense of something good, effective, strong and so on.