The ultimate goal of Neidan

[Antares]

So in this chapter he wrote about both - internal and external parts of De. 

1 hour ago, Antares said:

Rule with benevolence,
9. Conduct affairs with best ability,

Here I have another Torchinov' version of the translation and it sounds more like "always conduct the good correction". Which can be quite practical and not philosophical action. So your view on this is only your personal view 

Edited August 28 by Antares

[Antares]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

Here's an explanation of De (Te) by Master Waysun Liao in his book "Dimension One"

Here, he uses the term Do (as the precursor to the term Dao) (also as a play on his book title - Dimension One). 

And

It is obvious what is being referred to here - the primordial awareness or consciousness, which is at the foundation of our being. The process of uncovering our De (Te) is achieved by the process of releasing layers of conditioning (not building Qi, etc). The method of releasing the layers of conditioning and conditioned thinking consequently frees up our "energy". 

De is not morality, ethics, etc - though those are the outcome of realizing our true nature (De). It is not more Qi - that too is a consequence of releasing the conditioned layers of our personality. 

Yes, in general I would agree with this point of view. So "nourishing De" is not correct saying (I used my own term for that process) but we must nourish pre-heaven jing to realize pre-heaven nature. And not jing only, the latter one is only one of the ingredients. Releasing layers of conditioning helps this process, for example there is "charge" and "discharge" methods and also there is balancing one ath the end of each meditation. Balancing helps to realize our true nature. May be that is why Lao Tzu wrote "always conduct good correction" meaning "keep balance all the time"!

[Antares]

On 8/27/2024 at 1:57 AM, Cobie said:

Omg, it was in “the Matrix movie”, , well that proves it then. (sarcasm) 

 

 

Just imaging there are 1000 doors in front of you and you need to choose the right one. Some people might be travelling from life to life choosing incorrect doors in every life. And this might be limitless process. So practicing without  supervision of a knowledgeable teacher is definitely akin to stepping into incorrect door. It may be even more worse then just living "normal " life no practicing at all

[Antares]

22 hours ago, damdao said:

We can add that the latin vir is related to sankrit vīra, hero, vīrya manly strenght from the root vīr to be powerful.

 

Interesting, there is pra-slavic word "věra" which nowadays is used as synonym for "belief " and "religion". May be in ancient times there was another meaning of this word 

Edited August 28 by Antares

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Sahaja said:

I see lots of comments on how people interpret the DDJ now through their own current belief lens (Confucian, Neidan, Buddhist, Martial Arts, etc)  but I was more focused on what it might have meant then to the community in which it developed.The hypothesis I was using I got from a scholar whose work I thought was insightful who viewed the theme of DDJ as Yang Sheng cultivation (a series of practices for nurturing health and longevity with qi as a central component of the practice). His hypothesis was that these teachings started as an oral tradition among a group of proto Daoist recluses doing Yang Sheng practices that was later compiled into the DDJ. 

Frankly, I only added the information I did to address the "De" topic. FWIW, ML trained in the southern Daoist system, so his views are more than likely based on what he learned from his teacher (a wandering Daoist Master in Taiwan). I'm not denying the objective of yang sheng practices - I think it is only part of the picture. It goes back to the Ming-Xing topic - Yang Sheng is a Ming practice that, for most people, should precede Xing practice. To get to De as Pure Consciousness requires Xing practice, IMHO. 

[Antares]

Now to the amateurish western guesswork of De being something tangible, like qi-substance or ability to think or some tangible-power;). Of course none of these empty guesses are supported by a traditional quote.;)

Why not to read huimingjing and shut up!? I think many people are tired of your bla-bla-bla

Sorry if the English name for hui... is incorrect, not sure how it is in English 

PS. Dont even quote me again, not going to argue with you  

Edited August 28 by Antares

[Antares]

and BTW the term "nourishing De" is used there, just checked it

[ChiDragon]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

So why you dont see that this is not about morality or ethics? What is your point or argument in re to De understanding? 

First of all, we do not read into the TTC and mixed with the  idea of Confucianism. The virtue of morality is different from the virtue of Tao. However, the virtue of Tao is higher than the virtue of morality. One must read the whole TTC to understand what it is all about. Rather than just based on one chapter or just few lines.

Edited August 28 by ChiDragon

[Antares]

46 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

However, the virtue of Tao is higher than the virtue of morality. One must read the whole TTC to understand

Many people are making assumptions that DDJ is philosophical text so they regard it as another philosophical text including the idea of De. But in my opinion this is alchemical text. Read huimingjing which is definitely alchemical text where De has quite alchemical meaning. Anyway, you should not say me what I should do or should not in this thread. You can believe what you want, I dont care  to be honest with you

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Antares said:

You can believe what you want, I dont care  to be honest with you

Well, my friend, I see that you have already made up your mind about things. Certainly, there is no need for further discussion on this complex subject. Isn't it? May peace come into your heart! ❤️

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Well, my friend, I see that you have already made up your mind about things

Dont you find it is quite strange behavior to make certain assumptions and saying you are your own teacher and then you mislead people about certain things asking to stop this discussion. I hope expansive delusion is not about you. NOW PEACE   

[Master Logray]

Western culture is bit by bit building up, can be broken down and examined one by one.  Chinese culture is all encompassing.  It means when a framework is established, everything goes into it and be explained by it.   The writer of DDJ had a thinking which explained the world.   This thinking can be applied to metaphysics, morality, ethics, longevity and political governance i.e. multipurpose.   The latter generations can tap into it and find reference and supporting.  This is not unique.  In modern days, it is very common to explain everything in terms of money, and/or power. 

[Apech]

Is the ultimate goal of neidan the same as the ultimate goal of Daoism?  

[Antares]

7 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The writer of DDJ had a thinking which explained the world.   This thinking can be applied to metaphysics, morality, ethics, longevity and...

I don't think so... I am not sure somebody would explain the world for people of that epoch. That would be nonsense considering that it was not public book. The text was designed especially for future generations and I believe such high-level master could foresee the future. So the main purpose was to leave the knowledge of self-realization in simple words but metaphorically so that evil people could not change it if LaoTzu would use more concrete recommendations. The problem is that the language was different and nowadays it is not easy to get all meanings of the words

[Antares]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

Is the ultimate goal of neidan the same as the ultimate goal of Daoism?  

You think DDJ is not neidan text? There are many Daoist schools, a few just like religion. What is their goal I can only guess. May be they want to get good reincarnation, it depends  

[Taoist Texts]

Quote

As compared to you, who has first-hand knowledge of it? 

 

of course to me and of course I do - because i am literate. and i am happy to share, just for my fun;) here is an explanation what De is exactly

Quote

But whoever has no De, even if he gets this, Heaven certainly will not accord him this Dao. Why is that? Because Dao and De are like bird wings, if one is lacking, the other is of no use. One must have 忠(zhōng)孝(xiào)仁(rén)义(yì) loyalty, filiality, humanness, duty and the 5 precepts  completely pure, only after that there is a hope.

 

De=values+precepts

https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hans/慧命經

this comes from Huimingjing the sole foundation book of the modern neidan in China, and its garbled version in the West;)

 

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, Antares said:

You think DDJ is not neidan text? There are many Daoist schools, a few just like religion. What is their goal I can only guess. May be they want to get good reincarnation, it depends  

well I am no expert but I recall reading in the intro to the cantong qi that it was the first neidan book.  And it’s earliest dating is I think about 800 AD - I could be wrong about this and await correction.

[Cobie]

 

On 28/08/2024 at 2:37 PM, Antares said:

…

Sorry I used sarcasm. I actually quite liked the Matrix movies. 
 

 

Edited August 29 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

Is the ultimate goal of neidan the same as the ultimate goal of Daoism?  

No, they are not the same. Neidan is a practice method in the Taoist religion. Daoism covers all areas in all aspects.

Edited August 28 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

of course to me and of course I do - because i am literate. and i am happy to share, just for my fun;) here is an explanation what De is exactly

De=values+precepts

https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hans/慧命經

this comes from Huimingjing the sole foundation book of the modern neidan in China, and its garbled version in the West;)

 

Yes, that is the literal meaning. There is an implied meaning that is hidden to those without proper teachers or guidance.  

Esoteric texts are not meant to be taken literally - hence lineage, teacher, disciples, etc.

[Taoist Texts]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is an implied meaning that is hidden to those without proper teachers or guidance.  

Esoteric texts are not meant to be taken literally - hence lineage, teacher, disciples, etc.

the present company excluded of course, but in general, no matter how often and how emphatically we repeat a fantasy it will still remain  a fantasy, especially that of a cultish sort

3 hours ago, Apech said:

cantong qi that it was the first neidan book.  And it’s earliest dating is I think about 800 AD

that is correct but it depends on the definitions as to what neidan is precisely. CTQ is not it, too many ingredients lacking eg MCO

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Is the ultimate goal of neidan the same as the ultimate goal of Daoism?  

of course it is, neidan is a western term for the discipline, traditionally the discipline is called the great dao, so how can it have different goals with dao-ism? Quite the same: peace, health, longevity, clan prosperity, better rebirth, immortality.

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

The writer of DDJ had a thinking which explained the world.  

correct

18 hours ago, Sahaja said:

a scholar ...who viewed the theme of DDJ as Yang Sheng cultivation (a series of practices for nurturing health and longevity with qi as a central component of the practice). His hypothesis was that these teachings started as an oral tradition among a group of proto Daoist recluses doing Yang Sheng practices that was later compiled into the DDJ. 

so the DDJ is about  Yang Sheng compiled by  Yang Sheng-ists who did not mentioned  Yang Sheng 养生 even once? But who for some reason talked only  of ontology and governing instead? That figures. 'to a child with a hammer everything is  a nail'.

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

the present company excluded of course, but in general, no matter how often and how emphatically we repeat a fantasy it will still remain  a fantasy, especially that of a cultish sort

Why exclude anyone?  

why do you feel that anything other than a literal translation is a fantasy? Curious to understand your perspective. What do you think the daoist texts are for?

[Shadow_self]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

Why exclude anyone?  

why do you feel that anything other than a literal translation is a fantasy? Curious to understand your perspective. What do you think the daoist texts are for?

 

 

Full path to attaining the embryo contained within. No need for teachers or lineages. 

 

There are no secrets

 

All you need is a book, and something to translate it

Edited August 28 by Shadow_self

[ChiDragon]

10 hours ago, Antares said:

and BTW the term "nourishing De" is used there, just checked it

 Where is there?
Are you referring to Chapter 51
1.道生之
2.德畜之

 

1. Tao engenders it,
2. Te rears it (nourished by De).

PS 德: If it stands alone, we can look up its definition in a dictionary. If it was within a philosophy, then, we look into the mind of the philosopher to see what is the meaning defined by the author. For examples,
1. In Confucianism, 德 is the virtue of morality. The virtue of morality was considered to be that someone has the highest quality of human behavior without any regrets.

2. In Taoism, 德 is the virtue of Tao. By the meaning of the virtue of Tao, it is one who study and observe the principles of Tao was considered to be being processed the virtue of Tao.

 

Edited August 29 by ChiDragon

[Jadespear]

On 7/13/2024 at 2:32 PM, roamthevoid said:

The ultimate goal of (Theravada) Buddhism is to escape Samsara and therefore end all suffering for oneself. In the same sense, I wonder what the ultimate goal of Neidan is?

 

Neidan (& Neigong) provides various benefits in different stages, like improved health both physically and psychologically, improved abilities to enter concentrative states and so on, and the true masters with the right karma and dedication can give birth to golden embroyo and can dematerialize and materialize at will. In other words, they develop Siddhis.

 

That's all fine and well as intermediary road marks, but it seems to me that the highest goal of Neidan is not very clear.

 

For a serious Theravadin, his goal is very clear and singular - to reach Nibbana. There are no vague secondary goals, everything else is not nearly on the same level of importance. I know it's common to have "better rebirth" as a goal while claiming to be a Theravadin, but that's a much inferior goal than striving for Nibbana, a serious Theravadin would not have such a goal.

 

For a serious Neidanist, what is such a goal? To achieve Siddhis? What problem does that solve? One still goes up and down in Samsara after developing powerful Siddhis like dematerialization.

 

Here's an example of what I mean - a person who can enter 4th Jhana at will may go to the highest rupa Brahma realm after death and enjoy a life span of 16,000 Kalpas (each Kalpa is the age of the universe) of sublime bliss, but that's not really useful in the large scheme of things, because it doesn't last - he would fall back down again eventually, and 16,000 universe cycles is but a blink of an eye in this eternal game of Samsara.

 

I've also heard the highest goal of Neidan is to become a "Heavenly Immortal" / Tian Xian, but to my understanding, at least in the folk Chinese culture, Tianxians are just Devas or Brahmas, even the position of "Yu Huang Da Di" (literal: "Jade King Big King"), who is the king of all Tianxians, is just Sakka in Buddhist cosmology (and Indra in Hindu cosmology). And Sakka, being the most famous Deva king, is merely the king of Tavatimsa Heaven. Yes, it's a realm filled with luxuries unfathomable to us humans, but it's only the second-lowest heaven, there are many higher Deva & Brahma heavens above it. But more importantly, as I mentioned above, even an existence in the highest Brahma heavens aren't really that desirable, let alone one in a Deva heaven.

 

And by the way, they are not "Immortal", it's just an unfortunate translation error. The literal meaning of "Tian" is "sky", and "Xian" is "deity", so Tianxian's literal meaning is just "sky deity", not "Heavenly Immortal". No being is immortal in this world, even the universe itself will end one day. Yes, some beings live extremely long lives - e.g. a being born into the highest Arupa realm (the 8th Jhana heaven of "neither perception nor non-perception") can live for 84,000 universe-cycles. That's mind-bogglingly long, but that's still not immortal. It will die and come back down to (often much) lower planes.

 

Or is the goal to achieve "spiritual growth"? That's a vague term to me. What exactly does that mean? Growth towards what end?

 

I've even met Neigong practitioners who said they had no goals with their practice. I'm guess it's a popular to claim to have no goals especially in the Daoist traditions, due to the concept of "wu wei", but if a person has no goals, why even practice? 

 

Sorry about the long-winded way to ask this question, it has been on my mind for quite some time, I figured I'd lay it out for discussion.

 

 

...May I suggest then -  what is the goal of anything then?  In the end, you will forever be a soul/spirit.  You will always have the opportunity to experience bliss and sorrow.  All spirituality is meant to do is to bring you closer to appreciating things by understanding them.  Thats why there are so many traditions and they all are basically the same in the end...except buddhists.  Buddhists are left to find things for themselves it seems.  

 

Neidan is internal alchemy.  Through understanding internal arts, you master them and as a result are no longer entirely subject to treating the inner world with aids of the outer world.  Taoists began practicing Neidan to extend their lives in eras when people died before reaching 30 years of age on average...so consider the historical context.  Taoists practice Neidan as part of their maxim of how to live life.  As taoists don't believe in the duality of samsara and Nibbana, or anything like that - because those are just ways of describing things, not the things themselves.  Taoists deal with reality as it is in pure pristine awareness.  Taoists have the maxim "to live long, happy, healthy, and wise."  That's their path.  They are not trying to escape from anything except living poorly, which they devised an entire system to do.  

 

I really think the concepts of "enlightenment" and "freedom" and "moksha" and all that are taken way to literally and out of context from their traditions.  It's as if people actually believe the entire universe was not made for any purpose except to be transgressed...why does it have so much fun in it then?  Why is life full of plenty of joyful experiences?   

 

Reason only illuminates cause and effect relationships.  As in, what's the point of this? Why is this? Etc etc.  Can you really ask yourself why you exist?  Why existence exists? No.  Sure you can try, but you'll never get an answer as simple as the question posed.  

 

The physical world is the outcome of the mental one.  For life to be lived and felt enlivened - ones mind must be awake, open, and in tune with creating more.  Thats the nature of the mind - to create.  Made in the image of the creator.  

 

Taoists seek to live in harmony with the tao my friend.  The natural way and order of things, Neidan is an internal art used for healing purposes, and in higher levels taoist alchemy (which is basically magic).  A true practitioner of Neidan can achieve complete and everlasting health if they so choose.