Thoughts on Cultish Groups

[Taoist Texts]

9 hours ago, Cobie said:

are there any other reasons for this misapprehension?

the main one is materialism. a materialist is deaf to the message of salvation because salvation transcends matter.

9 hours ago, Apech said:

Deliberate wooling of the message.

yes it is in a sense that the wool itself is the only message. Same as in western philosophy 

or in any media

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message

meaning the message is irrelevant as long as the medium  triggers an irrational attachment in the robotic audience. E,g if the audience needs a father figure it does not matter if the figure preaches Buddhism or spaghetti-monsterism, as long as the figure plays the part well - it will be a viable cult.

Edited July 22 by Taoist Texts

[Nungali]

It isnt too hard to start your own cult 

 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

16 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Then you should say what the end goal is in your understanding, yes?

 

To eliminate ignorance and expand Buddha qualities (compassion, wisdom, etc.). 

 

Anyway, I'm no evangelist. It is clear you have your own aim, so... there you have it. 

[Taoist Texts]

Quote

To eliminate ignorance and expand Buddha qualities (compassion, wisdom, etc.).

great thanks @forestofemptiness

 this is indeed an excellent  formula of  what the western buddhism is about. i also do not quite know in what direction the discussion should go from here,  so i will leave the ball in your court;)

 

Edited July 22 by Taoist Texts

[Cobie]

.

Edited July 27 by Cobie

[Cobie]

.

Edited July 27 by Cobie

[Apech]

13 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

To eliminate ignorance and expand Buddha qualities (compassion, wisdom, etc.). 

 

Anyway, I'm no evangelist. It is clear you have your own aim, so... there you have it. 

 

The end goal is Buddhahood surely.  Then there is the debate about whether this is something you develop or is it something inherently present which you reveal.  In your previous post you quoted commentators talking about Buddha-nature - which in certain teachings (like Mahamudra) is the cause, path and goal - all at once.  Buddha qualities like bodhicitta arise directly from it - they can't be expanded by us - or that is how I see it.  We, for instance might try to be more compassionate in the normal sense but this is not the same as the Buddha's compassion.

 

 

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

The end goal is Buddhahood surely.  Then there is the debate about whether this is something you develop or is it something inherently present which you reveal.  In your previous post you quoted commentators talking about Buddha-nature - which in certain teachings (like Mahamudra) is the cause, path and goal - all at once.  Buddha qualities like bodhicitta arise directly from it - they can't be expanded by us - or that is how I see it.  We, for instance might try to be more compassionate in the normal sense but this is not the same as the Buddha's compassion

 

I totally agree. Currently, I would suggest it is both/and rather than either/or. The following is only my opinion. 

 

Relative compassion -- the kind we cultivate-- is for the acquired mind/conventional self composed of our habitual thoughts, delusions, etc. Once we connect with the primordial mind, i.e. our buddhanature, then true compassion spontaneously manifests and unfolds. 

 

I think this is most clearly laid out for me in Cleary's comments in the back of the Secret of the Golden Flower. I must have read those countless times some years back but it never clicked. Cultivation is for the acquired spirit. "True" compassion spontaneously emerges from the original spirit. We usually think of this as black or white, but I think it is more on a spectrum. Cleary's framework fits well IME if you look at his four relations between guest and host. As a sentient being proceeds from guest within guest to host within host, the practice would become less effortful and more effortless. 

For Mahamudra language, this type of relative cultivation is post-meditation practice. 

 

I think an error is using methods to try to develop the original spirit, or using effortlessness on the acquired spirit. Each has their own place/time. 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

The end goal is Buddhahood surely.  Then there is the debate about whether this is something you develop or is it something inherently present

before the debate about whether something is developed or present, should not there be a debate about what exactly the said something is actually? /otherwise some wool  just might to creep in idk ;)/

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

before the debate about whether something is developed or present, should not there be a debate about what exactly the said something is actually? /otherwise some wool  just might to creep in idk ;)/

Yes of course but then we have to talk about being beyond concept - which presents some difficulties.

[forestofclarity]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

which presents some difficulties

 

It does until you have gained some initial recognition and familiarity. It is almost like anything else: sex, being a parent, serving as a police officer or in the military. When you have some familiarity, you can recognize in some one else if they have shared the same experience as you. You can even instantly "get" a joke or a meme that summarizes what it is like. 

 

Now there are always people who can't obtain these. Sometimes, these people like to become self-described experts. They may read lots of books, watch movies, do internet research. They may form very strong ideas about what it is like to have sex, be a parent, or serve in the military even though they have not ever done these things. They might learn to shoot a gun or adopt a dog or create an imaginary dream partner of some sort. These are often lonely people, because most of what I describe involve other people and a strong face to face commitment with other people. 

 

They sometimes develop very elaborate theories about whatever thing they haven't experienced. Sometimes, they will be insulting and reductionistic to the "other" group: men who have relationships women are "jerks" and women are just "ho's" for example. A security guard might insist they are "high speed" just like "the real police" and "civilians" just don't understand. There is usually an undercurrent of bitterness, which is externalized as insults, dehumanization, or putting down others. 

 

When they say something like "Well, losing a dog is like losing a child" or "You gotta shoot first and ask questions later" they instantly lose all credibility. They may call parents "bad parents" because you can't train a child like a dog, or criticize military people who make mistakes under the pressure of combat or life. You may attempt to explain why this isn't so, but it won't matter-- you're "wrong", "deluded," etc. There is a very narrow ideal or understanding that usually only they have, i.e., cult thinking. 

 

On the other hand, some one may have a completely different background, country of birth, or religious affiliation and when they write something, it is recognizable. They may have studied with lineage Daoists, have a Vedanta or Theravada or Zen or Christian background, but seem to refer to the exact things a Tibetan teacher points out. It's uncanny. 

 

Unfortunately, unless and until there is an initial opening, or recognition, it will likely remain incommunicable and undefinable. 

 

Edited July 22 by forestofemptiness

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It does until you have gained some initial recognition and familiarity. It is almost like anything else: sex, being a parent, serving as a police officer or in the military. When you have some familiarity, you can recognize in some one else if they have shared the same experience as you. You can even instantly "get" a joke or a meme that summarizes what it is like. 

 

Now there are always people who can't obtain these. Sometimes, these people like to become self-described experts. They may read lots of books, watch movies, do internet research. They may form very strong ideas about what it is like to have sex, be a parent, or serve in the military even though they have not ever done these things. They might learn to shoot a gun or adopt a dog or create an imaginary dream partner of some sort. These are often lonely people, because most of what I describe involve other people and a strong face to face commitment with other people. 

 

They sometimes develop very elaborate theories about whatever thing they haven't experienced. Sometimes, they will be insulting and reductionistic to the "other" group: men who get women are "jerks" and women are just "ho's" for example. A security guard might insist they are "high speed" just like "the real police" and "civilians" just don't understand. There is usually an undercurrent of bitterness, which is externalized as insults, dehumanization, or putting down others. 

 

When they say something like "Well, losing a dog is like losing a child" or "You gotta shoot first and ask questions later" they instantly lose all credibility. They may call parents "bad parents" because you can't train a child like a dog, or criticize military people who make mistakes under the pressure of combat or life. You may attempt to explain why this isn't so, but it won't matter-- you're "wrong", "deluded," etc. There is a very narrow ideal or understanding that usually only they have, i.e., cult thinking. 

 

On the other hand, some one may have a completely different background, country of birth, or religious affiliation and when they write something, it is recognizable. They may have studied with lineage Daoists, have a Vedanta or Theravada or Zen or Christian background, but seem to refer to the exact things a Tibetan teacher points out. It's uncanny. 

 

Unfortunately, unless and until there is an initial opening, or recognition, it will likely remain incommunicable and undefinable. 

 

 

 

I think I get what you are saying.

[Taoist Texts]

16 hours ago, Apech said:

beyond concept - which presents some difficulties.

absolutely! in fact something like that has been id'ed in an adjacent field

Quote

have encountered resistance in many forms in my therapy practice.  I have had clients ask me about my life, change the subject, evade the issue by sharing a lot about something else, or conversely by going very quiet. Lots of therapists have reported clients evading their main issue  

https://southcottpsychotherapy.co.uk/how-to-manage-silent-or-resistant-clients-in-therapy/

https://www.carolynspring.com/blog/why-do-we-avoid/, but, highly likely, thats something completely different.

Anyway, in my cult we have none of this sulky avoidance. For us, the cultists, Buddhahood is an immortalized person, plain and simple.

 

13 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

serve in the military even though they have not ever done these things.  ...... A security guard might insist 

i did a 2 year stint as a grunt, then security through college. i have no point. just braggin' about my life.

13 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

completely different background, country of birth, or religious affiliation and when they write something, it is recognizable. They may have studied with lineage Daoists, have a Vedanta or Theravada or Zen or Christian background, but seem to refer to the exact things a Tibetan teacher points out. It's uncanny. 

thats fantastic!  although this can be mistaken for  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia  but nah, i am sure thats not it, like at all.

Anyway,  on a completely different note, in my cult we have no secret handshake, no dog-whistling, no guesswork. We, the cultists, use a set of traditionally documented milestones expressed in explicit keywords. Then, it is either  IYKYK, or, if you dont,  and dont wanna know - it is the 'old dog, new tricks' assisted living community for us.  Cest la vie, etc...

Edited July 23 by Taoist Texts

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

absolutely! in fact something like that has been id'ed in an adjacent field

https://southcottpsychotherapy.co.uk/how-to-manage-silent-or-resistant-clients-in-therapy/

https://www.carolynspring.com/blog/why-do-we-avoid/, but, highly likely, thats something completely different.

Anyway, in my cult we have none of this sulky avoidance. For us, the cultists, Buddhahood is an immortalized person, plain and simple.

 

i did a 2 year stint as a grunt, then security through college. i have no point. just braggin' about my life.

thats fantastic!  although this can be mistaken for  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia  but nah, i am sure thats not it, like at all.

Anyway,  on a completely different note, in my cult we have no secret handshake, no dog-whistling, no guesswork. We, the cultists, use a set of traditionally documented milestones expressed in explicit keywords. Then, it is either  IYKYK, or, if you dont,  and dont wanna know - it is the 'old dog, new tricks' assisted living community for us.  Cest la vie, etc...

I was thinking of the question as what is the nature of the Buddha mind, rather than what is a Buddha.  
 

you were a grunt? That’s interesting.

 

apophenia is a nice word.

Edited July 23 by Apech

[Cobie]

.

Edited July 27 by Cobie

[Taoist Texts]

23 hours ago, Apech said:

is the nature of the Buddha mind, rather than what is a Buddha

oh, that. sorry, i did not catch on your meaning because in my cult we make no distinction. buddha=buddha-mind=nirvana=samsara=the way=ordinary-mind for us.

The naive westerners  hear '“Ordinary mind is the Way” and think that they are 'already enlightened buddhas' if only they could calm down or something. They hear 'nirvana is samsara' and think they are already in nirvana if only they get compassionate wisdom or some such. Make me laugh every time. They dont get that these two formulas are a secret code with the key variable intentionally left out. Bless their poor souls, little they suspect that it is all about the medium, the vajra body, into which the ordinary-mind=samsara should be repackaged to become the buddha-mind=nirvana.

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh, that. sorry, i did not catch on your meaning because in my cult we make no distinction. buddha=buddha-mind=nirvana=samsara=the way=ordinary-mind for us.

The naive westerners  hear '“Ordinary mind is the Way” and think that they are 'already enlightened buddhas' if only they could calm down or something. They hear 'nirvana is samsara' and think they are already in nirvana if only they get compassionate wisdom or some such. Make me laugh every time. They dont get that these two formulas are a secret code with the key variable intentionally left out. Bless their poor souls, little they suspect that it is all about the medium, the vajra body, into which the ordinary-mind=samsara should be repackaged to become the buddha-mind=nirvana.

 

The talented Mr. Texts strikes again.

Edited July 24 by Apech

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

The talented Mr. Texts strikes again.

 

[Cobie]

.

Edited July 27 by Cobie

[Cobie]

.

Edited July 27 by Cobie