The Construction of Judaism

[Nungali]

< see below >

Edited October 23 by Nungali

[Nungali]

23 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

This thread is dense. Really powerful discourse this. It’s really great to sink my teeth into. I read the first two pages a couple of days back. I’ll have to read an reread, thanks guys this is a great one for antiquity 👍 I think people will love visiting and revisiting it.

 

 

 

Its mostly on the early constructive phase, it hasn't actually become 'Judaism' yet .  . Soon I will posting more about its  adaptive phase  where it became influenced by Neo-Platonism .

 

I feel this is important as we have a relentless poster here that is continually stating the opposite happened  and claiming all sorts of originating sources within Judaism , for the very things that  existed outside of it , came into it , and gave it its specific identity  ( one example is 'monotheism ' and 'emanation' ) .

[Thrice Daily]

26 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Its mostly on the early constructive phase, it hasn't actually become 'Judaism' yet .  . Soon I will posting more about its  adaptive phase  where it became influenced by Neo-Platonism .

 

I feel this is important as we have a relentless poster here that is continually stating the opposite happened  and claiming all sorts of originating sources within Judaism , for the very things that  existed outside of it , came into it , and gave it its specific identity  ( one example is 'monotheism ' and 'emanation' ) .

Yeah, it seems its all more likely remanence of older tales doesn't it? Do you think the various Gods referred to are Visitors from other star systems and possible those who have seeded mankind at different iterations in the past. I read a book when I was around 15 that went into a lot of detail on this.

 

I believe we were seeded from another planet way closer to a much bigger star than ours a long way away. I believe this was done intentionally. Do you?

Edited October 23 by Thrice Daily

[Nungali]

Ummmm ... in this thread I am basing posts on academic research  and my studies in Comparative Religion.  When I studied at Sydney University the

 

Religion  lectures did not mention visitors from other star systems  being Gods , books we read as teenagers  or personal belief systems .

 

Try this for a starter ;

 

 

https://davidsolomon.online/2021/04/22/81-a-journey-through-jewish-philosophy-3/

"  ... If you recall in the first session we talked about Philo in the first century, the famous Middle Platonist, and his enormous contribution to getting this idea of Jewish philosophy off and running. ...

But if we understand the notion of the One, if we understand the notion of emanation and particularly understanding the notion of form and matter and divine will permeating all of reality. I know that scholars are always saying, Shlomo Ibn Gabirol didn’t really influence the Kabbalah, but everywhere you look in kabbalistic thought, you can see ideas that are reflective of Shlomo Ibn Gabirol’s picture of the world.

So, Neoplatonism is a very, very heavy influence inside kabbalistic thought ... " .

 

 and 

 

https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/2023/09/28/list-lecture-jewish-studies-adam-afterman-kabbalistic-neoplatonism-divine-emanation

 

" 

Their first synthesis occurred in the writings of Philo, forgotten by rabbinic Jewish world until the Renaissance, and their second, during the 10th century and onwards in the Islamic Arabian Peninsula. The second attempt met with greater success, but also greater resistance, as may be attested by the enormous supposition that Moses Maimonides' grand synthesis met.

Greek wisdom by most medieval Jewish rabbinic Jews was seen as, at best, as one option but not authoritative, and at worst, heretical. Nevertheless, the work of Maimonides and his predecessors was still absorbed by much of rabbinic Judaism, including somewhat surprisingly, kabbalistic writings.

Perhaps the most crucial idea incorporated by medieval rabbinic Judaism was philosophical monotheism. The encounter with kalam thought and its emphasis on Tawhid led Jews in the 10th century to a more philosophical understanding of God's oneness, an incorporeal and transcendent oneness not subject to any category of change.

This conception became so foundational to Judaism, even read as the intention of the most important biblical verse, "Hear, o, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." That later, Jewish thinkers identified it as the original Jewish idea that was later absorbed and adopted by the other monotheistic faiths. "

 

- so there you have it , Jews adopted it so readily that they assumed they came up with it and where the source of this AND that Neo-platonism got its concepts from Judaism !

 

[Thrice Daily]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

https://davidsolomon.online/2021/04/22/81-a-journey-through-jewish-philosophy-3/

 

Thanks

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/2023/09/28/list-lecture-jewish-studies-adam-afterman-kabbalistic-neoplatonism-divine-emanation

 

Coolio

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

philosophical understanding of God's oneness, an incorporeal and transcendent oneness not subject to any category of change.

So there was a notion of oneness that far back, was it not always expressed as the supernal ain-soph-aur then?

Edited October 23 by Thrice Daily

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

 

Thanks

 

Coolio

So there was a notion of oneness that far back, was it not always expressed as the supernal ain-soph-aur then?

 

Of course not !

 

That was a Neo-Platonic influenced Jewish concept that is an expression of   BEFORE  'the One'    'manifested '

 

" Neoplatonic philosophy is a strict form of principle-monism that strives to understand everything on the basis of a single cause that they considered divine, and indiscriminately referred to as “the First”, “the One”, or “the Good”. "

 

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/neoplatonism/

 

Ein Sof, or Eyn Sof (/eɪn sɒf/, Hebrew: אֵין סוֹף‎ ʾēn sōf; meaning "infinite", lit. '(There is) no end'), in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to any self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual realm, probably derived from Solomon ibn Gabirol's (c. 1021 – c. 1070) term, "the Endless One" (she-en lo tiklah). Ein Sof may be translated as "unending", "(there is) no end", or infinity.^[1] It was first used by Azriel (c. 1160 – c. 1238), who, sharing the Neoplatonic belief that God can have no desire, thought, word, or action, emphasized by it the negation of any attribute. Of the Ein Sof, nothing ("Ein") can be grasped ("Sof"-limitation). It is the origin of the Ohr Ein Sof, the "Infinite Light" of paradoxical divine self-knowledge, nullified within the Ein Sof prior to creation. "

other cultural examples here in Oz are stories that start with  ;  "  Before the Dreamtime ..... "

 

theirs is based on 'pre originating' duality , while some of the Jewish ones are based on Triplicity , like  the tree 'levels' of ein, ein sof, then ein sof ohr ... then 'the one '   although  within that some schools of philosophy see ( a type of ) duality , eg .  Tzim-tzum  where In the Kabbalistic interpretation, tzimtzum gives rise to the paradox of simultaneous divine presence and absence within the vacuum and resultant Creation .

 

Edited October 23 by Nungali

[Dedicated]

On 21/07/2024 at 8:42 AM, Nungali said:

 

This threads focus is historical  and not related to 'religious or faith value'

 

 

 

My research has led to an interesting revelation.

 

I will casually look into a loose timeline for events that took place in antiquity.

 

We need to approach cleaning up our understanding of History in a patient, open and mildly methodical manner.

 

I was looking into stories of Inanna and Gilgamesh from different angles for multiple reasons. And what shook out was the old testament is a collation of oral stories and our sense of old testament timeline is way out. 

 

It's just on my list of areas of exploration, but one I was thinking of just the other day.

 

On a different note, one thing I adore about the history of Jewish culture is the fact that these people walked for forty years forming customs alive today. 

 

To understand the beauty of their culture is a blessing.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Dedicated said:

 

 

My research has led to an interesting revelation.

 

I will casually look into a loose timeline for events that took place in antiquity.

 

We need to approach cleaning up our understanding of History in a patient, open and mildly methodical manner.

 

I was looking into stories of Inanna and Gilgamesh from different angles for multiple reasons. And what shook out was the old testament is a collation of oral stories and our sense of old testament timeline is way out. 

 

It's just on my list of areas of exploration, but one I was thinking of just the other day.

 

On a different note, one thing I adore about the history of Jewish culture is the fact that these people walked for forty years forming customs alive today. 

 

To understand the beauty of their culture is a blessing.

 

 

Yes, as far as cultures go, it was .  To that end I often quote a Rabbi  ;

 

"So what if it is a made up story ... the 'missing parts' where 'documents found in a cave ' ?   < raises eyebrows >  Still,  its a story that has bought Jewish unity and continuation throughout some of the most thorough attempts at extermination in history .. and we are still here .  "

 

Kudos !

 

- all cultures have a some history of 'construction' ;  Christian , Islam ,

 

and yes , Zoroastrianism too  - by the later  Archaeminads ;

 

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/achaemenid-religion

 

Spoiler

  the above shows some views  against 'original Zoroastrianism'  ... the follow shows some views FOR Cyrus being a Zoroastrian :

 

(and some discrepancies are due to a faulty time line  )

 

https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/28053/chapter-abstract/212006363?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

https://authenticgathazoroastrianism.org/2014/01/28/the-zoroastrian-religion-of-the-achaemenids/

 

Edited October 24 by Nungali

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

I feel this is important as we have a relentless poster here that is continually stating the opposite happened

 

To be clear:  my position:

 

Judaism possesses similarities to other theologies as a consequence of multiple groups coming to similar conclusions naturally through their own cultural history.  The archeological evidence shows that Jewish monotheism existed prior to 900 bce, at the Temple Tel Arad and the Great Temple at Tel Meggido.  Further, God's infinity is written in the Torah, but, the English translations obscure it.

 

Internet critics ignore the archeological evidence and the written Torah in Hebrew because it undermines their criticism.

 

Edited October 24 by Daniel

[Nungali]

That is out of context to what my quoted  comment was about ; it was about you claiming things in   hermeticism and Neo-platonism came from Judaism .

 

Regarding the above in the last few posts of mine , you do realise that in the  citations I gave as back up, I chose some from Jewish scholars  ?

[Thrice Daily]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

" Neoplatonic philosophy is a strict form of principle-monism that strives to understand everything on the basis of a single cause that they considered divine, and indiscriminately referred to as “the First”, “the One”, or “the Good”. "in Kabbalah, is understood as God prior to any self-manifestation in the production of any spiritual realm,

God you’ve a way with words when you get going, I’d have probably just said, it started the lightening on the tree. 
 

from in my limited exposure to this type of literature, there are two directions this lightening bolt can be harnessed?

 

In practical matters. I believe it’s , devotion (giving up)/directing (bringing down)?

 

Hopefully that’s not butchered it. I wonder if you or Daniel could recommend any reading on this? 

for practical insight. Thankyou both 🙏 

Edited October 24 by Thrice Daily

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

That is out of context to what my quoted  comment was about

 

Your statement of my position was at least unclear if not grossly inaccurate.

 

15 hours ago, Nungali said:

we have a relentless poster here that is continually stating the opposite happened  and claiming all sorts of originating sources within Judaism , for the very things that  existed outside of it , came into it , and gave it its specific identity  ( one example is 'monotheism ' and 'emanation' ) .

 

That is not an accurate description of my point of view.  It ignores the archeological evidence of Jewish monotheism which is independent of Judaism.

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Regarding the above in the last few posts of mine , you do realise that in the  citations I gave as back up, I chose some from Jewish scholars  ?

 

1)  The religious affiliation is irrelevant.

2)  Details from Dr. Yonaton Adler's research were omitted which produced, again, an inaccurate conclusion regarding the date of conception of Jewish practices.  "TAQ" is neglected in spite of its inclusion in your own source and that it is standard practice in Archeological dating.  Without accurate dating the direction of influence becomes arbitrary, because, without accurate dating, it's impossible to tell which came first.

 

In other words, what you've written lacks important details and so far you have been unwilling or unable to assimilate new information about Judaism.

 

Edited October 24 by Daniel

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I wonder if you or Daniel could recommend any reading on this? 

 

Yes, "Mystical Concepts in Chassidus".  It's free to read or download.  Chassidus is, more or less, the Kabalah of the Baal Shem Tov, a famous mystic, healer, and miracle worker.  This is one of the first books I read over 20 years ago when I began to learn Kabalah.

 

https://www.hebrewbooks.org/15600

 

 

Edited October 24 by Daniel

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

So… when about do we have the first, actual example of the torah? 

[Cobie]

14 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

So… when about do we have the first, actual example of the torah? 

So … what’s the connection between the Tarot and the Torah? 

 

 

Edited October 24 by Cobie

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

So … what’s the connection between the Tarot and the Torah? 

 

 

I dont know. Lets make it easy: how old is the earliest examplare of the old testament.

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

God you’ve a way with words when you get going, I’d have probably just said, it started the lightening on the tree. 

 

Words put in quotation marks signify it is a quote .
 

from in my limited exposure to this type of literature, there are two directions this lightening bolt can be harnessed?

 

Traditionally yes , but the 'way up' might not be considered a lightening 'bolt'  and I would not dream of 'harnessing ' it .

 

In practical matters. I believe it’s , devotion (giving up)/directing (bringing down)?

 

Inspiration and aspiration - in both meanings of those terms .

 

Hopefully that’s not butchered it. I wonder if you or Daniel could recommend any reading on this? 

for practical insight. Thankyou both 🙏 

 

Why not just practice it ? Its rather simple .  Then I would recommend reading Israel Regardie's ' Middle Pillar '

 

 

Edited October 24 by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

So… when about do we have the first, actual example of the torah? 

 

That will be an interesting answer .    

 

I am assuming 'first,actual' means written ?     By Moses of course   , he carved out some stone  tablets after he came down out the mountain . They 'lost ' those .  Then they appeared again much later  in written form 'found in a cave ' ... well, some crucial missing bits, after that they where stuck together  .

 

" No one knows for sure when the Torah was first written down, but scholars believe that the final version of the Torah we have today was recorded during the Babylonian exile (c.539 BCE). A few fragments of texts from around this time period have survived, but the oldest complete Torah only dates to the 11^th or 12^th century. "

 

https://www.oldest.org/religion/torah/

[Nungali]

" Neoplatonism is a version of Platonic philosophy that emerged in the 3rd century AD against the background of Hellenistic philosophy and religion. The term does not encapsulate a set of ideas as much as a series of thinkers. Among the common ideas it maintains is monism, the doctrine that all of reality can be derived from a single principle, "the One".  "

 

- Wiki .

[Nungali]

and Sir Darius , note this from above ;

 

" Perhaps the most crucial idea incorporated by medieval rabbinic Judaism was philosophical monotheism. The encounter with kalam thought and its emphasis on Tawhid led Jews in the 10th century to a more philosophical understanding of God's oneness, an incorporeal and transcendent oneness not subject to any category of change. "

 

This isnt my opinion  and me 'ignoring the archaeology'  its from Harvard Divinity School -  Center for the Study of World Religions , and its author ;

 

" Speaker Adam Afterman. Dr. Adam Afterman is a Professor at the Department of Jewish Philosophy and Talmud at Tel Aviv University, specializing in Jewish philosophy and Kabbalah. He is a senior scholar and director of the John Paul II Center for Interreligious Dialogue and a senior fellow of the Kogod Center for the Renewal of Jewish Thought at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. Dr. Afterman addressed the profound impact of Neoplatonism on Kabbalah, the medieval trend of Jewish mysticism. While its impact on the development of a new form of mystical religiosity of communion and unio mystica is relatively known, he focused on another critical development: Afterman argueed that through an interpretation of Neoplatonic emanation in terms of substantive intra-divine emanation, the kabbalist developed for the first time a Jewish godhead. "

 

https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/2023/09/28/list-lecture-jewish-studies-adam-afterman-kabbalistic-neoplatonism-divine-emanation

 

 

 and I cite this in particular ;

 

" a senior fellow of the Kogod Center for the Renewal of Jewish Thought at the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem "

 

since I have been accused of  " have been unwilling or unable to assimilate new information about Judaism. " by Daniel .

 

Edited October 24 by Nungali

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Perhaps the most crucial idea incorporated by medieval rabbinic Judaism was philosophical monotheism

I did notice it, and I belive you (or rather, your source)… but it is still so mindblowing that it was THAT late, considering what we teach our 8-9 year olds at school..

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

So … what’s the connection between the Tarot and the Torah? 

 

 

 

There is not a direct connection at all .  I 'blame '   Alphonse Louis Constant  *   .  I think some started to notice 22 letters of Hebrew alephbet   ( alphabet )  and 22 tarot trumps .   Someone ascribed cosmic energies to letters  and they got transcribed onto cards ; for example 'The Chariot'  relates to a letter but also an astrological sign . But 12 of them and 22 cards  ?  best to move away from kabbalah now and nut it out via their astrological correspondence  ; the 22 was divided up as 12 signs, 7 planets  and three elements , with the 4th earth sorta manifesting as the whole deck .

 

The 4 courts in 4 suits where attributed to the the four worlds of the kabbalah and the small cards to the 10 degree segments of the zodiac 'decans '    so you get things like 2 of wands being ' Mars in Aries '

 

The cards go around the astrological circle in a specific order  ... we might have gone too far off topic for the rest . A topic more for 'esoteric' section and tarot threads .

 

*   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Éliphas_Lévi

[Cobie]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

There is not a direct connection at all .  I 'blame '   Alphonse Louis Constant  …

Exactly, that’s what I always thought too. 
 

 

[Nungali]

So we are consistent on Constant .

[Thrice Daily]

Via the article Nungali shared:

https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/2023/09/28/list-lecture-jewish-studies-adam-afterman-kabbalistic-neoplatonism-divine-emanation

 

“For Maimonides, the overflow metaphor describes how the non-corporeal active intellect affects the material realm, including the human mind. Importantly, this overflow is not understood as a divine substance or a substance at all, but rather as a radiation of power that retains the unchanging character of the active intellect and God's oneness in a philosophical sense, while discussing the relation between the metaphysical and physical realms.”

 

I can’t tell you how relaxing it is to read this @Nungali It’s a longish article but super easy to read. I hope everybody has a chance to read it. It’s very sensible. It’s easy to see , the conversation removes any flammable fuel when talking about God. It’s what I tried to do earlier and failed. Light reading. 

“Abulafia emphasized how the overflow is united and integrated, and therefore, individuals may unite with the divine flow through perfection of their imagination and intellect, but not necessarily by working and uniting the powers of the Godhead. The divine flow is the focus of his ecstatic integration with the Godhead, leading to moments of ecstatic union with the unified flow.” 
 

that is brilliant and perfect truth IMHO too, I was trying to explain this in my personal meanderings about the Trinity, early in the|other thread. It’s a pity all Muslims aren’t Mystical Muslims imo and instead choose to filter the light through a 6th Century [20 year] Businessman.. If I had more grappling experience I might disagree.. (Submission 😆) Compassion works in mysterious ways, certainly can’t please everyone with our actions and deeds, only hope to become more skilful.

 

“Nahmanides also refers to the substance using the analogy of water, which can exist as ice, as water, as steam, yet all of these forms retain the same fundamental identity as one substance.”
 

Great Analogy for a couple of years round 2010 I dropped all reading and energetic considerations in Chi Kung practice and only focused on this.

Ice to Water , water to Steam. 
For external and internal dissolving, I’ve still not thanked Mr Bruce Frantzis for that.

 

Can I ask, do you have one more interfaith dialogue link you could share here, if one springs to mind. I feel they are very valuable 🙏 

Edited October 25 by Thrice Daily