The Construction of Judaism

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Abulafia emphasized how the overflow is united and integrated, and therefore, individuals may unite with the divine flow through perfection

 

Care is warranted here.  Abulafia did not write in English.  The word which is being translated as "perfection" is most likely "shlaymutah".  I've seen this mistranslation before.  It's not "perfection".  The word doesn't have an easy, one-to-one, translation to English.

 

Judaism doesn't seek perfection.  There is one and only one which is perfect.  None other can achieve it.  However, the notion of seeking a "divine flow through perfection" is similar to other religious/spiritual practices, so, the mistranslation is accepted by many only because it is satisfying for the researcher, and the reader, but not because it is an accurate rendering of the Rabbi's words into English.  

 

Ultimately when reading these words, one is not receiving Rabbi Abulafia's teachings.  Instead, they are reading the translator's opinion of what Abulafia intended.  It's called "free translation".  I think it's important that this is clearly indicated.

 

https://glossary.sil.org/term/free-translation

 

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

For Maimonides ...

 

It is well known that Maimonides was influenced by Greek philosophy.  Many of his concepts seem to plucked directly from others.  It's one of the reasons why Maimonides was outcast, his books burned, and he was considered a heretic.  Even though Maimonides was influenced by Greek philosophy, that doesn't mean that Judaism is constructed from it in some ways.

 

The mistake that so many make is the assumption that if the author is Jewish ( a Rabbi or Academic scholar ) that they are somehow immune from misrepresentation, heresy, etc.  The outside researcher, interested party, has little options for learning about Judaism independently.  So, they believe what they read and hear, assuming that the author would tell them if their source is considered by many heretical and cannot be considered a representative of an entire religion.  But the academics don't tell you this because it undermines their thesis while reinforcing their own world-view and/or strongly held religious or anti-religious beliefs.

 

 

Edited October 25 by Daniel

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Ice to Water , water to Steam

 

Literally Fire+waters = heavens "shamayim" in Hebrew.  It's a contraction ( a tzimtzum ) of aysh which means Fire and mayim which means waters.

 

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ׃

 

In the beginning God created השמים ( ha-shamayim ) and the earth.

 

ואד יעלה מן־הארץ והשקה את־כל־פני האדמה׃

 

And אד ( ayd mist/steam ) went up from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

 

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Great Analogy for a couple of years round 2010 I dropped all reading and energetic considerations in Chi Kung practice and only focused on ...

 

Connecting with primordial forces of creation?  Fire and water?

 

Edited October 25 by Daniel

[Daniel]

18 hours ago, Nungali said:

since I have been accused of  " have been unwilling or unable to assimilate new information about Judaism. " by Daniel 

 

I should have written:

 

"unwilling or unable to assimilate new information which challenges or diminishes your prior assumptions about Judaism."

 

Edited October 25 by Daniel

[Thrice Daily]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Connecting with primordial forces of creation?  Fire and water?

 

("Connecting with primordial forces of creation?  Fire and water?" pm'd.)

 

I read that the Idea was that Hebraic's were created backwards from last letter to first, This is fascinating to me. And I actually would have guessed that to be the case. (Cyclic Recurrence, I'm a fan of it's ponderance)

 

Can you tell us, when did YHVH appear first in writings, from the likely origin point of Hebrew as a language to the time YHVH was written in Hebrew, How much time was there? is it measurable or is there no way to tell?

 

Also I'm assuming the Dad, Mom, Son, and final Daughter are all suggestive in the physical sense, or have I been wrong in my assumption all these years? Thankyou. Nungali, I'd love to hear your views specifically on this.

[Cobie]

 

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

… Fire+waters = heavens "shamayim" in Hebrew. 

… In the beginning God created השמים ( ha-shamayim ) and the earth.

… And אד ( ayd mist/steam ) went up from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

It’s very different of course, but It brought 太一生水 to my mind.

Spoiler

太一生水 - The Great One gave birth to water.

Water returned and assisted Taiyi, in this way developing heaven. 
水反輔大一， 是以成天。

Heaven returned and assisted Taiyi, in this way developing the earth. 
天反輔太一，是以成地。

Heaven and earth [repeatedly assisted each other], in this way developing the "gods above and below." 
天地（復相輔）也， 是以成神明。

The "gods above and below" repeatedly assisted each other, in this way developing Yin and Yang.
神明復相輔也， 是以成陰陽。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui

https://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm 

 

 

 

Edited October 25 by Cobie

[Thrice Daily]

8 minutes ago, Cobie said:

.

Hope you're from the UK Cobie? If not; see short Youtube Clip... 

 

 

Edited October 25 by Thrice Daily

[Cobie]

32 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

Hope you're from the UK Cobie? If not; see short Youtube Clip... 

Dutch. The video still didn’t explain it for me, but the pm did. 

 

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Via the article Nungali shared:

https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/2023/09/28/list-lecture-jewish-studies-adam-afterman-kabbalistic-neoplatonism-divine-emanation

 

“For Maimonides, the overflow metaphor describes how the non-corporeal active intellect affects the material realm, including the human mind. Importantly, this overflow is not understood as a divine substance or a substance at all, but rather as a radiation of power that retains the unchanging character of the active intellect and God's oneness in a philosophical sense, while discussing the relation between the metaphysical and physical realms.”

 

I can’t tell you how relaxing it is to read this @Nungali It’s a longish article but super easy to read. I hope everybody has a chance to read it. It’s very sensible. It’s easy to see , the conversation removes any flammable fuel when talking about God. It’s what I tried to do earlier and failed. Light reading. 

“Abulafia emphasized how the overflow is united and integrated, and therefore, individuals may unite with the divine flow through perfection of their imagination and intellect, but not necessarily by working and uniting the powers of the Godhead. The divine flow is the focus of his ecstatic integration with the Godhead, leading to moments of ecstatic union with the unified flow.” 
 

that is brilliant and perfect truth IMHO too, I was trying to explain this in my personal meanderings about the Trinity, early in the|other thread. It’s a pity all Muslims aren’t Mystical Muslims imo and instead choose to filter the light through a 6th Century [20 year] Businessman.. If I had more grappling experience I might disagree.. (Submission 😆) Compassion works in mysterious ways, certainly can’t please everyone with our actions and deeds, only hope to become more skilful.

 

“Nahmanides also refers to the substance using the analogy of water, which can exist as ice, as water, as steam, yet all of these forms retain the same fundamental identity as one substance.”
 

Great Analogy for a couple of years round 2010 I dropped all reading and energetic considerations in Chi Kung practice and only focused on this.

Ice to Water , water to Steam. 
For external and internal dissolving, I’ve still not thanked Mr Bruce Frantzis for that.

 

Can I ask, do you have one more interfaith dialogue link you could share here, if one springs to mind. I feel they are very valuable 🙏 

 

 

I am sure you can find many interfaith dialouges on the internet .

 

But was it that ... or the Hermetic Wisdom that got you going ?

[Nungali]

 

I knew we would get to him sooner or later and I was wondering how Daniel would try and eliminate him from the picture  

 

I ureg folks to  form their own opinion based on other sourcers than Daniel's info  ;

 

 " a Sephardic rabbi and philosopher who became one of the most prolific and influential Torah scholars of the Middle Ages. .... During his lifetime, most Jews greeted Maimonides' writings on Jewish law and ethics with acclaim and gratitude, even as far away as Iraq and Yemen. Yet, while Maimonides rose to become the revered head of the Jewish community in Egypt ...

 

 

He was posthumously acknowledged as one of the foremost rabbinic decisors and philosophers in Jewish history, and his copious work comprises a cornerstone of Jewish scholarship. His fourteen-volume Mishneh Torah still carries significant canonical authority as a codification of halakha ...

 

Aside from being revered by Jewish historians,  ...

 

Then the article lists his immense tratises and works on all sorts of subjects  and then

 

Philosophy

Through The Guide for the Perplexed and the philosophical introductions to sections of his commentaries on the Mishna, Maimonides exerted an important influence on the Scholastic philosophers, especially on Albertus Magnus, Thomas Aquinas and Duns Scotus. He was a Jewish Scholastic. Educated more by reading the works of Arab Muslim philosophers than by personal contact with Arabian teachers, he acquired an intimate acquaintance not only with Arab Muslim philosophy, but with the doctrines of Aristotle. Maimonides strove to reconcile Aristotelianism and science with the teachings of the Torah.^[47] In his Guide for the Perplexed, he often explains the function and purpose of the statutory provisions contained in the Torah against the backdrop of the historical conditions. The book was highly controversial in its day, and was banned by French rabbis, who burnt copies of the work in Montpellier.^[65]

In his commentary on the Mishnah (Tractate Sanhedrin, chapter 10), Maimonides formulates his "13 principles of faith"; and that these principles summarized what he viewed as the required beliefs of Judaism:

1. The existence of God.
2. God's unity and indivisibility into elements.
3. God's spirituality and incorporeality.
4. God's eternity.
5. God alone should be the object of worship.
6. Revelation through God's prophets.
7. The preeminence of Moses among the prophets.
8. That the entire Torah (both the Written and Oral law) are of Divine origin and were dictated to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai.
9. The Torah given by Moses is permanent and will not be replaced or changed.
10. God's awareness of all human actions and thoughts.
11. Reward of righteousness and punishment of evil.
12. The coming of the Jewish Messiah.
13. The resurrection of the dead.

Maimonides is said to have compiled the principles from various Talmudic sources. These principles were controversial when first proposed, evoking criticism by Rabbis Hasdai Crescas and Joseph Albo, and were effectively ignored by much of the Jewish community for the next few centuries.^[66] However, these principles have become widely held and are considered to be the cardinal principles of faith for Orthodox Jews

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

 

but Daniel tells us 

 

" It's one of the reasons why Maimonides was outcast, his books burned, and he was considered a heretic. " 

 

 

Edited October 25 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I should have written:

 

"unwilling or unable to assimilate new information which challenges or diminishes your prior assumptions about Judaism."

 

 

My prior assumptions where much like you current ones  Daniel .   I was bought up to believe in the Old Testament  and  shared many beliefs with Judaism .

 

I agree though , you should have written something else , and aslo something else aside from your adove  attempted didaction

[Cobie]

And now something totally unrelated,     , 挑毛病 came to mind. 
https://www.linguee.com/chinese-english/translation/挑毛病.html

 

 

 

Edited October 25 by Cobie

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

("Connecting with primordial forces of creation?  Fire and water?" pm'd.)

 

I read that the Idea was that Hebraic's were created backwards from last letter to first, This is fascinating to me. And I actually would have guessed that to be the case. (Cyclic Recurrence, I'm a fan of it's ponderance)

 

Can you tell us, when did YHVH appear first in writings, from the likely origin point of Hebrew as a language to the time YHVH was written in Hebrew, How much time was there? is it measurable or is there no way to tell?

 

Also I'm assuming the Dad, Mom, Son, and final Daughter are all suggestive in the physical sense, or have I been wrong in my assumption all these years? Thankyou. Nungali, I'd love to hear your views specifically on this.

 

Okay

 

Daniel is gonna LUV this one .

 

Hebrew script is based on fire  ; a lick of flame ;

 

 

All the letters are basically rearrangements or different forms of that .  Shin is the most obvious and also represents fire

 

 

 

I dont worsjip Jahovah or jahovah type Gods , so I am more interested in the suggested formua , as you put it ... the little family unit.

 

There is a lot to learn from that pattern and it goes across the board ; it could be based on the Kabbalisitic concpet of four worlds .

Liking tarot, I see it in the four suits that relate to the four elements . In the correspondence charts , mnost things  are shown in their four levels . The Golden dawn uses the 'tarot scale '   King Queen Prince Princess ' I prefer the updated more modern one of 'Knight ( the first active  wild and volatile part of the energy , it 'goes forth ; to do the rulers will ) , The Queen ( the stable ruling part of the energy ) The Prince - a more subtle form of the energy and the princess - an early formation of the energy that can be influenced by other energies , stabilized . 

 

Even a totally unaware of this person (like color theorist Don Pavy ) notices this in nature , he puts colors in these 'scales ' the first is ones that demand attention and scream at us ( the knights ) , like bright, shocking, forceful or modern fluro colors ) . next he talks about the 'commanding colors ' , the 'pure and primal ' colors )  - the Queens .  Then mixed and all sorts of colors , the  vast range of mixed   colors - they 'speak to us' . Last are soft pastels , the princess , who 'whisper' to us .

 

I am sure we can think of 'Gods' in  each of those categories     

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

It’s very different of course, but It brought 太一生水 to my mind.

  Reveal hidden contents

太一生水 - The Great One gave birth to water.

Water returned and assisted Taiyi, in this way developing heaven. 
水反輔大一， 是以成天。

Heaven returned and assisted Taiyi, in this way developing the earth. 
天反輔太一，是以成地。

Heaven and earth [repeatedly assisted each other], in this way developing the "gods above and below." 
天地（復相輔）也， 是以成神明。

The "gods above and below" repeatedly assisted each other, in this way developing Yin and Yang.
神明復相輔也， 是以成陰陽。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui

https://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm 

 

 

 

 

Aboriginal creation story says similar .

Edited October 25 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

It’s very different of course, but It brought 太一生水 to my mind.

  Reveal hidden contents

太一生水 - The Great One gave birth to water.

Water returned and assisted Taiyi, in this way developing heaven. 
水反輔大一， 是以成天。

Heaven returned and assisted Taiyi, in this way developing the earth. 
天反輔太一，是以成地。

Heaven and earth [repeatedly assisted each other], in this way developing the "gods above and below." 
天地（復相輔）也， 是以成神明。

The "gods above and below" repeatedly assisted each other, in this way developing Yin and Yang.
神明復相輔也， 是以成陰陽。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui

https://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm 

 

 

 

 

I dont get them ... apparently due to my thick luxurious hair    ,

 

You might be confusing that ailment with 'setting the record straight ' ?

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Can you tell us, when did YHVH appear first in writings

 

The earliest that I know is Ostracon 18 from Temple Tel Arad, 600 bce.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arad_ostraca

 

However new discoveries are made ( and debated ) currrently.

 

https://www.livescience.com/ancient-curse-tablet-early-hebrew

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Hebrew script is based on fire  ; a lick of flame ;

 

The letter Shin, like Shamayim, is fire.  

 

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

That is a yud.  The yud is a point, a dot, with a thorn pointing up and a tail pointing down.  It represents eternity.

 

Edited October 26 by Daniel

[Daniel]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Daniel is gonna LUV this one .

 

It's true.  I do love it.

 

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

Hebrew script is based on fire

 

It's written in our scripture:

 

Jeremiah 23:29

 

הלוא כה דברי כאש נאם־יהוה וכפטיש יפצץ סלע׃

 

Is not my word like fire ( אש aysh aleph+shin )? says YHVH; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The letter Shin, like Shamayim, is fire.  

 

 

Thats what I wrote in the part you omitted from my quote .

 

It is a 'formation' of the 'pure fire / flame ' , which needs to be in three parts (as the one flame is  the ideal or root energy of fire) . As you know , in the 'world above' ; things form through 'triplicates' before they break through the 'veil ' from the ideal to the real  or  'formed heaven in the Universe'.  The year,  head and soul are  3 of the ways it manifests . 

 

'King over fire'   is an interesting concept .  'Attributed to fire ' ?   Like the other mother letters  have their elemental attributions ?

 

( for those unfamilar with the concept ;   " The three mother letters - Aleph, Mem, and Shin - are air, water, and fire in the world. Heaven is created from Fire [the shin in shamayim]; the Earth from Water [the mem in mayim]; and the Air [the aleph in 'avir] which decides between the fire and the water."  )

 

And this is similar to  the dynamics of the inner ( and  'personal' )  planets in astrology and the arrangement in 'mythic psychology' , which is :

 

 a polarity between 'heaven' and 'earth'   :  fire ('source' of heaven )   and water (source of earth )  with air between   or  Mars and Venus with Mercury 'in between'   / 'regulating .

 

......... 

 

.......

 

...........................

 

Also the three primaries ; yellow red and blue .  Anyway, I have written heaps elsewhere  about how this archetypal pattern manifests in everything  ;  ' the 10,000 things carry its signature ' 

 

Also it indicates that Hebrew is a 'divine' or 'magical  ' alphabet ,   on the lower level it has number values to letters ( hence 'gematria' )  and a higher level , it has the universal pattern inherent in it .

 

 

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

That is a yud.  The yud is a point, a dot, with a thorn pointing up and a tail pointing down.  It represents eternity.

 

 

I know it a 'yud'  ,  I dont randomly post 'squiggly lines and dots '        a thorn  ( or a horn ?  )  and  a tail eh ?    Thats the 'devil in the details' I suppose ?

 

Spoiler

"The devil is in the details" is an idiom alluding to a catch or mysterious element hidden in the details; it indicates that "something may seem simple, but in fact the details are complicated and likely to cause problems".

 

- my emphasis  

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It's true.  I do love it.

 

 

It's written in our scripture:

 

Jeremiah 23:29

 

הלוא כה דברי כאש נאם־יהוה וכפטיש יפצץ סלע׃

 

Is not my word like fire ( אש aysh aleph+shin )? says YHVH; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?

 

Now you understand why I said a yod is a lick of flame  and the script is based on fire .    

 

Arabic is 'based' on air  ..... but we better not go into that here .

 

 

  

 

 

( because 'where there is smoke there is fire ' .)

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats what I wrote in the part you omitted from my quote .

 

It is a 'formation' of the 'pure fire / flame ' , which needs to be in three parts (as the one flame is  the ideal or root energy of fire) . As you know , in the 'world above' ; things form through 'triplicates' before they break through the 'veil ' from the ideal to the real  or  'formed heaven in the Universe'.  The year,  head and soul are  3 of the ways it manifests . 

 

'King over fire'   is an interesting concept .  'Attributed to fire ' ?   Like the other mother letters  have their elemental attributions ?

 

( for those unfamilar with the concept ;   " The three mother letters - Aleph, Mem, and Shin - are air, water, and fire in the world. Heaven is created from Fire [the shin in shamayim]; the Earth from Water [the mem in mayim]; and the Air [the aleph in 'avir] which decides between the fire and the water."  )

 

And this is similar to  the dynamics of the inner ( and  'personal' )  planets in astrology and the arrangement in 'mythic psychology' , which is :

 

 a polarity between 'heaven' and 'earth'   :  fire ('source' of heaven )   and water (source of earth )  with air between   or  Mars and Venus with Mercury 'in between'   / 'regulating .

 

......... 

 

.......

 

...........................

 

Also the three primaries ; yellow red and blue .  Anyway, I have written heaps elsewhere  about how this archetypal pattern manifests in everything  ;  ' the 10,000 things carry its signature ' 

 

Also it indicates that Hebrew is a 'divine' or 'magical  ' alphabet ,   on the lower level it has number values to letters ( hence 'gematria' )  and a higher level , it has the universal pattern inherent in it .

 

 

 

I know it a 'yud'  ,  I dont randomly post 'squiggly lines and dots '        a thorn  ( or a horn ?  )  and  a tail eh ?    Thats the 'devil in the details' I suppose ?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

"The devil is in the details" is an idiom alluding to a catch or mysterious element hidden in the details; it indicates that "something may seem simple, but in fact the details are complicated and likely to cause problems".

 

- my emphasis  

 

 

I down voted this post because it is a convoluted mess.  

[Daniel]

16 hours ago, Nungali said:

I ureg folks to  form their own opinion based on other sourcers than Daniel's info 

 

Here is another source:  https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/maimonides-and-his-discontents/

 

1)  Maimonides' neoplatonic influence was a exception.  It is controversial.  It is not common among religious Jews.  You have been referring to Maimonides as an example which describes Judaism.  That is a false conclusion.  It's typical of internet researchers.  They find an example which supports their theory.  They exaggerate its significance.  They don't question it.  There is virtually no critical thinking applied.  It's as if they have seen a small  picture in a frame, but have forgotten that it's just a small part off the big picture.

 

 

2)  From the same source, the traditional mystical community, the kabalists, rejected Maimonides.  This shows that his theories, influenced by neoplatonism, are not in harmony with traditional Jewish spirituality.  His theories are not traditional.  They were rejected by the traditionalists.  That's because the Greek influence is new.  They are new ideas being added to Judaism.  Kabalistic concepts pre-existed.  Greek philosophy and conflicts with original, authentic, Jewish beliefs, though, there are similarities.  

 

 

3)  Maimonides in Judaism is known as an extreme example of a specific sort of rational explanation for Jewish practice and scriptural interpretation.  We study his writing.  He is popular among those who struggle with esoteric concepts, those who have spent time learning other religions, and yeminite Jews who at times treat him as their Rebbe ( guru ). 

 

Edited October 26 by Daniel

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

I ureg folks to  form their own opinion based on other sourcers than Daniel's info 

 

I've posted repeatedly on this forum regarding Maimonides' heresy and that he was cursed by the great kabalist, the Ravad, and rejected by the Jewish mystical community. 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/search/?&q=ravad&author=daniel

 

https://i.postimg.cc/qvthRgYs/Screenshot-20241026-053747.jpg

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

From Wikipedia, to corroborate what I've written:

 

 

^^ Maimonides admitted he was wrong. ^^

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_ben_David#:~:text=Raavad was thus an opponent,Aristotelian philosophy as Jewish theology.

 

Edited October 26 by Daniel

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

but Daniel tells us 

 

The information has been posted.  It's not "me" telling.  

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

... Hebrew is a 'divine' or 'magical  ' alphabet ,

 

Ultimately, this is the source of the errant conclusions.  Because Jewish "magic" has credibility among those who intend to be magicians, sorcerers, gurus, etc... it's common practice to look for correspondence and similarities ( while ignoring the contrast ) in their own practice with what they have been told is Jewish practice.  Using Hebrew words and concepts in a "magical" context is often impressive and dazzling to those who don't know.   ( for those who don't know... , this technique of using Hebrew concepts in this manner is a version of "glamour," it's a charm used by Magicians ).

 

So, the "magical" community very strongly desires to put a "Jewish" label on their theories because its supposed to increase the faith in their craft.