The Construction of Judaism

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

No not at all. If it didnt happen, they did not eat anything. They had no more need for food than Casper the friendly ghost. But maybe you could check Out beduin diet? If it did happen, I guess it would be something like that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Lost in the desert 40 years !    Man ! It took me ONE DAY to get out ;   The Pinnacles ... what a place ! I was so vibed and amazed I just kept walking , stared out on dawn . After a while, and a lot of meandering in wonder , I was  getting hot, need water , shit ! How do I find my way back ?  I started out with the rising sun on my right but now it was nearly noon . I soon realised that with a bit of loose time calculation, watching how long it took the Sun to move  and considering the direction of shadows , I was able to go back the way I came ... it worked .

 

The Pinnacles :

 

 

This might border on bigotry, but I legit sometimes ponder how enviorments like these would affect culture and religion. Today it rained 189mm in my city… how could I possibly imagine the dessert. Competition was probally quite a bit fiercer. On the pluss side tho, I feel time somehow «moves more slowly» there, and they are less probe to get caught up by all the silly things we wonder about. Instead, my perception (which is based on literally nothing but prejudige) is that they spent more time focusing on the larger questions, like mans role in the universe.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

 

Damn, looks superior to Whats available at my closest grocery store.

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

I guess I am objecting to the term faith, as it implies untruth (or at least potential untruth) in the very real experiences people have, whether they be in a church, synagogue, mosque, forest, nungalis garden, etc.  

 

I agree the word faith has a lot of baggage.  Maybe a better word is:  "wonder"?   

 

The context of comment is magic as defined / described by western-occult schools of thought.  My position is simply that, magic requires a sense of wonder.  If it is lacking that, it's no longer magic.  It's science.

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

15 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

So how exactly did the Jews arrive in Isreal ?thats what I wanna frickin know, and where had they actually travelled from !!!!

Let me start by a disclaimer: this is very tinfoil!

 

BUT a page or two ago, I reccomended a video to Nungali. In that video, they mention how Herodotus had zero knowledge of the jews… they speculate that proto jews might be mentioned, tho:

 

Spoiler

 

There are no men who respect pledges more than the Arabians. This is how they give them: a man stands between the two pledging parties, and with a sharp stone cuts the palms of their hands, near the thumb; then he takes a piece of wood from the cloak of each and smears with their blood seven stones that lie between them, meanwhile calling on Dionysus and the Heavenly Aphrodite;

[2] after this is done, the one who has given his pledge commends the stranger (or his countryman if the other be one) to his friends, and his friends hold themselves bound to honor the pledge.

3] They believe in no other gods except Dionysus and the Heavenly Aphrodite; and they say that they wear their hair as Dionysus does his, cutting it round the head and shaving the temples. They call Dionysus, Orotalt; and Aphrodite, Alilat.¹

 

 

Herodotus, 8.3.1-3

 

Theory goes, somekind of hellenistic seapeople who got relocated after the defeat to Egypt, mixed with the local tribes and… that than became the jews. But again, crackpot theory.

 

Also, you mention how Mecca was prob not a muslim center at the beginning, I think you right: I belive most modern scholars think it was actually Petra.

[Cobie]

Imo, in order to handle the external world, science studies the external world and magic studies the internal world.

 

Edited October 31 by Cobie

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

Yeah, at first I looked at the map and the massive detour that was apparently taken and figured the Egyptians would have thought them so completely nuts for taking that route back to Isreal they simply left them alone, or otherwise didn’t look in that direction at all as it was just too outrageous to think they would head out in that direction. 

 

Hang on, you know WHY they went in that direction ? They had a guide : 

 

" So he led the people around toward the Red Sea along the road of the wilderness. And the Israelites left the land of Egypt in battle formation. ...  And they moved on from Succoth and encamped at Etham, on the edge of the wilderness. ... By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.  Then the Lord said to Moses " “Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near Pi Hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea. They are to encamp by the sea, directly opposite Baal Zephon." Pharaoh will think, ‘The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.’  ( and hence draw him towards the Red Sea  )  .

 

- this then enables stories of parting the sea to escape (drawn from other myths * ) to be inserted into this 'eclectic story ' .

 

He juxtaposes biblical descriptions of Moses' parting of the Red Sea with an account written by the historian Polybius  in which the Carthaginian general Hamilcar Barcas leads his armies across a wind-subsided river in the same geographical region. ... Crossing the Waters: Moses and Hamilcar.

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/545919?mag=science-behind-weather-miracles&seq=1

 

Mental story. Islam isn’t much different with their whole idea of Medina being ancient and all the prophets being buried there. Totally outrageous too, no water there or camel stops whatsoever.  
 

So how exactly did the Jews arrive in Isreal ?thats what I wanna frickin know, and where had they actually traveled from !!!!

 

They didnt arrive in Israel as it had not been invented yet .    There is a lot of background info about all of this in the youtubes, links and citations offered as supportive evidence .

 

check the one Darius the Clairvoyant posted

 

 

 

Edited October 31 by Nungali

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Daniel got some catching up to do now.

 

Daniel does not 'catch up' - he passes by 90% of it  , selects some thing or two he feels he can discredit  and then goes about that badly .  One assumes he is now busy listing every thing that  was left out of the Egyptian prayer that Jews didnt adopt . 

 

Seems to have missed the point that if anyone is going to appropriate someone else's story to their own ends they will adopt only those parts that support their own ends and not the parts that do not support their own ends . Obvious , no ?  <shrug> but that is how he chooses to run his  arguments .

 

A lot of belief and 'belief proof' seem to ignore certain basic underlying rational principles and understandings . 

[Nungali]

45 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

This might border on bigotry, but I legit sometimes ponder how enviorments like these would affect culture and religion. Today it rained 189mm in my city… how could I possibly imagine the dessert. Competition was probally quite a bit fiercer. On the pluss side tho, I feel time somehow «moves more slowly» there, and they are less probe to get caught up by all the silly things we wonder about. Instead, my perception (which is based on literally nothing but prejudige) is that they spent more time focusing on the larger questions, like mans role in the universe.

 

Absolutely !

 

and try sleeping under this ! 

 

 

One place I camped  was flat all the way around to all horizons . Now, most places I have been, sunset and night spread from the east ; the east sky is dark and can have  the first stars  while the western horizon might still be light and a bit blue . Out there , the middle of the sky starts to get dark with stars and that 'drops down' all around , 360 degrees , to leave a band of light blue sky circling around the  horizon with a dome of blackness and stars overhead .... then that last ring of light winks out .

 

and how many prophets   spent time alone in the desert and wilderness and then came back with an experience to communicate .

[Nungali]

53 minutes ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Damn, looks superior to Whats available at my closest grocery store.

 

I need breakfast now .

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Absolutely !

 

and try sleeping under this ! 

 

 

One place I camped  was flat all the way around to all horizons . Now, most places I have been, sunset and night spread from the east ; the east sky is dark and can have  the first stars  while the western horizon might still be light and a bit blue . Out there , the middle of the sky starts to get dark with stars and that 'drops down' all around , 360 degrees , to leave a band of light blue sky circling around the  horizon with a dome of blackness and stars overhead .... then that last ring of light winks out .

 

and how many prophets   spent time alone in the desert and wilderness and then came back with an experience to communicate .

 

 

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

That’s not why I asked the question.

 

I asked for someone that may have an answer. It must have been something that has been considered by historians who assert it as a truth.

 

i’d like to hear it. Make more sense?

 

 

I have uncovered more ..... but I think I better PM you the answer   .

[Thrice Daily]

Did you ever visit Turkey @Nungali I’d be interested to know what you think of Ephesus.

 

Same with you @Daniel , @Cobie, @Sir Darius the Clairvoyent and anyone else that feels like chiming in.

 

I went in year 2000 and it was mind blowing. When you can see ruins and touch ruins there is a more unarguable legitimacy. The Goddess Nike Stone, The doorway block of Medusa, the Amphitheatre and place they kept the Lions 🦁 🦁 before Game time.  
 

I'm more interested generally in what you guys think of the place, if there are any ties to Judaism though that are noteworthy for the thread that would be cool too.

[Daniel]

@Thrice Daily,

 

I have not traveled to the Middle East yet.  But I would like to someday.

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

Daniel does not 'catch up'

 

 

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

One assumes he is now busy listing every thing that  was left out of the Egyptian prayer that Jews didnt adopt . 

 

I'm very busy.  This time of year is always very busy.  It's the Jewish high holiday season.  

 

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

he passes by 90% of it  , selects some thing or or two he feels he can discredit 

 

It's true.  I prioritize the most obvious mistakes and omissions.   I've also heard these theories you're posting before, so, I not curious about what you're writing.  I'm much more interested in what others are writing about.

 

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

Seems to have missed the point that if anyone is going to appropriate someone else's story to their own ends they will adopt only those parts that support their own ends and not the parts that do not support their own ends .

 

What were/are those ends?

 

And, what you're missing are the plausible alternatives to your theory.

 

If the two cultures have common ancestry, ( for example through Noah ) then it would explain both the similarities and the differences in their religious practices and mythology.  It's equally plausible, but, it seems you haven't considered it.

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

11 minutes ago, Daniel said:

ry, ( for example through Noah

Is shem, ham and japheth metaphor for different races, or is that just a modern, racist invention. If not, what does it represe? Also, isnt literally everyone descended from him according to Your faith?

[Daniel]

On 10/31/2024 at 12:32 AM, Thrice Daily said:

Daniel got some catching up to do now. 

 

I apologize, what is it that you're referring to?

 

On 10/31/2024 at 4:02 AM, Thrice Daily said:

So my question would then be, what historical certainty of Jews is the earliest. 

 

"historical certainty" doesn't exist in that region during that period of time.

 

The earliest Archeological examples of Jewish practices are the temples.  The structure of these temples includes the precise details described in the Torah.  The shape of the altar, the 4 horns on the altar, the presence of blood, and, and remains of the consecration oil have been found.  

 

The Archeological dating of these is around 1000 bce.  The religion would necessarily be older than that.  It would take at least 200 years to develop a religious infrastructure to support a temple of this size.  Even if the theology and the religious practices are borrowed, setting up the logistics to support a temple like this takes time.  

 

These were big, busy temples.  It's known the extent, how often, the temple was being used due to the amount of animal bones left over from the offerings.  It's known the temples are Jewish because they are monotheistc. They have 1 altar for their one God, and an attached "holy-of-holies".  The other neighboring temples have multiple altars for  multiple gods.  Also, the neighboring temples had pig bones, the Jewish temples did not.

 

So, the earliest historical evidence of Judaism, the religion, is 1000bce.

 

On 10/31/2024 at 4:02 AM, Thrice Daily said:

my question would then be, what historical certainty of Jews is the earliest. 

 

As I said previously, there is no certainty.  But, the earliest evidence of Jews, the people, are the Shasu.  But, it's not "certain", it's the most likely, best fit, candidate.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shasu#Shasu_of_Yhw

[Daniel]

2 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is shem, ham and japheth metaphor for different races, or is that just a modern, racist invention. If not, what does it represent? 

 

There's not much in the written Torah about them.  This leaves a lot of room for creative interpretation.  However, for what it's worth, all three are "blessed" by God at the beginning of Gen 9 after the flood.

 

ויברך אלהים את־נח ואת־בניו ויאמר להם פרו ורבו ומלאו את־הארץ׃

 

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
 

Then, later, Ham, the father of Canaan is cursed by Noah for dishonoring him.  

 

9:24

וייקץ נח מיינו וידע את אשר־עשה לו בנו הקטן׃

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him.

 

9:25

ויאמר ארור כנען עבד עבדים יהיה לאחיו׃

And he said, Cursed be [ Ham father of ] Canaan; a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers.

 

As far as I know, this curse was never fulfilled.  So, it's concluded that Noah's curse didn't work.  This makes sense because God's blessing cannot be amended or overruled by Noah.  This greatly reduces the likelihood that the text agrees with a race-based pejorative of Ham.

 

Wikipedia has an article on it : LINK

 

While Genesis 9 never says that Ham was black, he became associated with black skin, through folk etymology deriving his name from a similar, but actually unconnected, word meaning "dark" or "brown".

 

The next stage are certain fables according to ancient Jewish traditions. According to one legend preserved in the Babylonian Talmud, Ham broke a prohibition on sex aboard the ark and "was smitten in his skin" as punishment; However, in the Talmud this skin punishment is not described as hereditary or linked to slavery, and in other ancient Jewish sources black skin is seen as beautiful rather than disfiguring. 

 

According to another legend, Noah cursed Ham because he castrated his father.

 

A link between blackness and slavery becomes more heavily implied in the discussions of early Christian writers like Origen. The suggestion that Canaan was the ancestor of dark-skinned people enters the Biblical tradition with the fourth century Syriac Christian Cave of Treasures. 

 

... It originated in the 4th century.

 

Quote

Also, isn't literally everyone descended from him according to Your faith?

 

Genesis 9:19

 

שלשה אלה בני־נח ומאלה נפצה כל־הארץ׃

 

These are the three sons of Noah; and from them was the whole earth peopled

.

Edited November 1 by Daniel

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

 

I'm very busy.  This time of year is always very busy.  It's the Jewish high holiday season.  

 

 

It's true.  I prioritize the most obvious mistakes and omissions.   I've also heard these theories you're posting before, so, I not curious about what you're writing.  I'm much more interested in what others are writing about.

 

 

What were/are those ends?

 

And, what you're missing are the plausible alternatives to your theory.

 

If the two cultures have common ancestry, ( for example through Noah ) then it would explain both the similarities and the differences in their religious practices and mythology.  It's equally plausible, but, it seems you haven't considered it.

 

 

You are right . I have not considered 'common ancestor through Noah '.  

 

  

 

This is , as I keep saying, not a' faith based' thread .  And I am not seriously going to consider that the whole world's population came from Noah's family .

 

And I think it is rather obviously ridiculous to try and say  that any similarities between the formation of Judaism and the other cultures they borrowed things from to construct their own ethno-nationalist  'history '  (especially when you previously denied and excused all that ) is now  put down to be a 'similarity ' due to the idea that we all came from Noah's line .

 

I mean  really Daniel  .... really ?    Thats your latest tack , is it ? 

 

 

--------------------

 

In any case - have a nice holiday season with your family .

Edited November 1 by Nungali

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

Is shem, ham and japheth metaphor for different races, or is that just a modern, racist invention. If not, what does it represe? Also, isnt literally everyone descended from him according to Your faith?

 

In some instances  - Yes ! 

 

 

Ever  hear about 'Hamitic ' people ?

 

Hamites is the name formerly used for some Northern and Horn of Africa peoples in the context of a now-outdated model of dividing humanity into different races; this was developed originally by Europeans in support of colonialism and slavery.^[1][2][3][4] The term was originally borrowed from the Book of Genesis, in which it refers to the descendants of Ham, son of Noah.

 

'cause, ya know  ...... Ham was black  . 

 

 

... and Judaism has a prohibition against   Ham     

Edited November 1 by Nungali

[Nungali]

On a more serious note ;

 

I have to  question myself on  ' WHY'  and 'HOW'  .... I can not leave that out . In all issues my brain wants to know these things as well .

 

Why would Judaism need to be constructed, sourcing some info relevant to them and a whole lot of appropriated cultural stories and other histories  and how could that have been done ?

 

Regarding suggested timelines ; I find it hard to come up with scenarios for the view that this happened in early  Hellenistic times . However I can imagine some dynamics that seem to point more towards an exilic and post-exilic  times .

 

So my next focus will be on ;

 

What was going on in the middle east around the time of  and after 600BC

The same, in Mesopotamia - 'neo Babylonian  empire '  - ie why did Nebuchadnezzar invade ?  And what was the area like HISTORICALLY  (not 'Biblically - or in scripture ) .

 

What where bot areas like after exile ?

 

What where the dynamics involved with Cyrus' decision to return the Jews to 'homeland ' and help them set up an empire there ?  And , adjunct to this - what was going in Egypt then , and between Persia and Egypt ?   ( eg. did Cyrus' need a 'buffer state ' )

 

How did the people in  the middle east feel about a swarm of  people coming into their land  from Babylon ?   What effect could that have had .   I am thinking along lines like  " Dont worry , we are not 'migrants ; we are your long lost ancestors  that are going to educate you about a  history and a greatness you have lost ... and we got wood, gold and goodies too  !  "

 

- just an idea at the moment .   But I will start at point  1 soon

 

As I am having holiday season too 

 

 

( being retired ..... every day is a holiday !    

 

 

 

From boat :  " Dont do that ! You are near 70 ! "

 

...   'Ahhhh .... shut up . " 

[Thrice Daily]

Yeah man , sounds reasonable . Make a splash!!!

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

You are right . I have not considered 'common ancestor through Noah '.  

 

It doesn't need to be through Noah.  If the two nations, Egypt and Israel, have a common lineage which split at some point in their development, then, that would explain the similarities and the differences in their theology and mythology.  "Borrowing" is not the only explanation.

 

Further, it's highly unlikely that Judaism was "constructed" in the manner which you're describing.  Think about it.  According to your theory, ( as I understand it, which could be wrong ), approx 500 bce, the Jewish people had settled ( forcibly ) in a land which belonged to other nations.  Then they were exiled in Babylonia where Judaism was constructed, their prior ethnic lineage was completely and absolutely erased and replaced with a manufactured ethnicity which flip-flopped reality positioning themselves, the Jewish leaders ( the levite cult of renegade Egyptian scribes ), as the priests who ruled by the edge of a sword.   Every single Jewish person in the Israelite nation agreed to this new-version of history, everyone dropped their prior family history and religion and adopted a new-one ( borrowed from the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks and Romans), all at once, all the Jews, all together during the Babylonian exile.

 

It would need to be a complete ethno-genesis, because, for over 2000 years none of us had considered that the entire story was fabricated such that we are not Jews, we're Egyptians who stole the religion and mythology form others.   It's completely unrealistic.  There was an ethno-genesis, but not in that extremely unrealistic manner.  The best example to look at is American ethno-genesis.  It is similar to the ethno-genesis of Israel.   Land was purchased, but there was a bitter war, which lasted many years, much blood was shed.  At the end of the war, a new nation emerged, America.  Many, many new Americans, however, retain their prior ethnicity as German-Americans, African-Americans, Spanish-Americans, Dutch-Americans.  Those who were native to the land often refer to themselves as Native-Americans.  The point is, in an ethno-genesis like this, it is impossible to completely and thoroughly erase the prior ethnicity.  Even if there is a conspiracy to re-write history during the Babylonian exile and in the years following, it would be impossible to erase everyone's ethnicity.  If Judaism was constructed in the Babylonian exile, then there would be some Jews who identify with their historically correct ethnicity.  Some of them would have retained their true history of their heritage. 

 

If what you've written ( and implied ) is true, then every single Jewish family which returned to Israel after exile is a liar and thief.  And when they returned to Israel, all of those liars were able to convince the other Jews who remained in Israel to erase their heritage as well, even though there was a bitter civil war with factions who didn't trust each other or work together.  It is highly unlikely that the Judeans ( the tribe of Judah, the ones in power ) would have been able to convince the Northern Kingdom to go along with the conspiracy.  They were enemies.  ( Generally.  It's not a black/white dichotomy ).

 

Let's suppose, in theory, that the Jewish leadership, the levites, the renegade Egyptian scribes, perpetrated their conspiracy, their ethno-genesis, stealing from the Egyptians and Persians, by force.  Let's suppose that any Jewish person with good morals who did not agree to go a long with the new-and-improved, but completely fabricated, cultural history, was murdered.  Even then, there would the story of the slaughters, the murders, the intimidation.

 

This is why conspiracy theories fail.  The theory may have a legitimate foundation, basis for inquiry, but the theory balloons into an epic, very creative, narrative which is wholly unrealistic to the point of being absurd.

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

And I am not seriously going to consider that the whole world's population came from Noah's family .

 

Not the whole world.  Just these two neighboring nations.   Both nations emerged from the same region?  They are close to each other?

 

You didn't consider that the two nations, Israel and Egypt, would have similarities naturally?  As a natural consequence of their physical proximity? 

 

Edited November 2 by Daniel

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

cause, ya know  ...... Ham was black  . 

 

.. and Judaism has a prohibition against   Ham     

 

Ummmmm.  The Talmud teaches the opposite...White and black are contrasting-and-harmonious.  White+White is too white.  

 

אמר ר"ל גבוה לא ישא גבוהית שמא יצא מהן תורן ננס לא ישא ננסת שמא יצא מהם אצבעי לבן לא ישא לבנה שמא יצא מהם בוהק שחור לא ישא שחורה שמא יצא מהן טפוח:

 

Reish Lakish says: tall should not marry tall, lest there emerge [ a child ] extremely tall. A dwarf should not marry a dwarf, lest there emerge [ a child ] who is exceptionally short. White should not marry white ( לבן לא ישא לבנה ) , lest there emerge [ a child ] extremely pale. Dark should not marry dark, lest there emerge [ a child ] extremely dark.

 

https://www.sefaria.org/Bekhorot.45b.8?vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&lang=bi

 

Judaism is a middle path religion, but not a middle path like others.  Other middle paths exclude the extremes.  Judaism intends to bring them together, contrasting-and-harmonious pairs, in the right time, place, and way.  It is a middle path of inclusion.

[Daniel]

The best example of Judaism's inclusive middle-path comes from our observance of the holiday of Sukkot.  It is our unity-festival.  

 

Lev.  23:40

 

ולקחתם לכם ביום הראשון פרי עץ הדר כפת תמרים וענף עץ־עבת וערבי־נחל ושמחתם לפני יהוה אלהיכם שבעת ימים׃

 

And you shall take on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days.
 

Each of these 4 represent a different sort of person.  Some have wisdom, some have good deeds.  Some have both.  Some have neither.  On Sukkot we gather and bring these 4 kinds together and celebrate together.  

 

Each year we construct a new set of the four kinds for ritual use during the festival.  One per household.  Here's mine.  The holiday ended last week.  The harmonious-contrast is clear, isn't it?  Shape, color, leaves, even the scent.  The myrtle, and the etrog ( the fruit ) both have contrasting yet harmonious smell.

 

 

 

Edited November 2 by Daniel