The Construction of Judaism

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

No, I am telling you you cant have it both ways

 

~shrugs~

 

You're ignoring the evidence I brought which supports my position.  I'm not having it both ways.  There would have been a record of the slaughter, because there are records of other slaughters like it.

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

and I am not going to revist and hash out what that means as I already explained it .

  

No problem.  No more questions.  Please continue preaching to whomever wants to listen.

[Daniel]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

The period we where discussing .

 

It needs a date range.  You're being vague.  

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

Well, that certainly does no suggest  an Empire or even 'Kingdom of David' at all .

 

It's the beginning of the immigration of the early jewish people into Egypt.  It's archeological evidence of the beginning of the Exodus story which is the beginning of the story of Judaism as it emerged from Egypt.  

 

The "empire" if that's an accurate word, and the 'kingdom of David" come much later.  The period we are discussing is Egypt 12th dynasty.  I have not claimed there is a Jewish empire at that time.  I know of no one who claims there is "empire" at that time.  

 

 

[Daniel]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

I can post pictures from same period that shows a HEAP of other peoples and types and yes they are all distinctive in some way  according to dress, hair style, clothing .  Some them are depicted with arm bindings and things tied to their heads .  Or they might have a distinctive shield . That means they where a people different to the Egyptians , no that all had kingdoms .

 

Good.  There is archeological evidence that some of these are likely early Jewish immigrants who were nomadic people of the region who believed in YHVH.  This archeological evidence is dated 1900bce.  

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

and whats with this picture ?

 

It's from a tomb in Egypt.  It's archeological evidence showing the shasu ( who are likely the early jews ) entering Egypt.  It's dated over 500 years prior to the composition of the Hymn of Aten.  

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

What was the context of  the source of this .  Its got nothing  to do what I have been saying .

 

You brought an academic source comparing the Hymn of Aten with Psalm 104.  You assume the direction of influence is from The Hymn of Aten to Psalm 104.  But if the early jewish people arrived before the composition of the Hymn of Aten, then, the direction of influence is backwards.   

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

Id never thought id say this, but this convo legit makes me wonder If christ truly had it all figured Out.

[Nungali]

You mean ,  he  was really a Palestinian  ?

 

 

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/12/25/remember-christ-was-a-palestinian-refugee/

 

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

No problem.  No more questions.  Please continue preaching to whomever wants to listen.

 

'The problem' remains  as no more questions does not mean no more Daniel posting and  playing his game  ;

 

I will give one example out of many I detect

 

YOU post  an image from a tomb  that has EXTRA studd, boxes, labels , modern words and a note to obseve skin color all over oit . as your 'evidence'

 

 

I ask whats with that ? Of course referring to the crucial part where the term  'early Jews' has been added .  I asked aboutnthat and oput information down about them .  I also questioned why  a 'dark skin' comment is needed . What the hell is the source of this rubbish ... MEANING,  DANIEL the source of the things that where added to the original .

 

You know full well what I meant !

 

But what do you answer  ?

 

" It s from a tomb in Egypt ' .

 

yeah, thats cute .

 

Its from a tomb in Egypt ...  ( with stuff projected all over it ! )

 

and why I won't  give you the credit of a proper referenced response anymore .

 

[Thrice Daily]

Fair, there is so much in this thread that is of value. It would be great to have it all assimilated and somehow fact checked then rewritten into easy to follow paragraphs as the absolute truth.

 

it would be so interesting to read, if only it were possible. Perhaps one day AI will be sharp enough to do such a thing.

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Thrice Daily said:

and somehow fact checked

 

... I'm trying.  It takes time. 

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

YOU post  an image from a tomb  that has EXTRA studd, boxes, labels , modern words and a note to obseve skin color all over oit . as your 'evidence'

 

Annotation.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I ask whats with that ?

 

You have refused to answer my questions.   Now you are complaining because I didn't answer yours.

 

The labels identify who is who in the inscription.  I doubt other readers will be bothered by them.  No one is going to mistake those annotations as original to the inscription.

 

That is all the explanation you will be getting from me.  If you feel it is somehow dishonest, there is nothing I can do to change your mind about it.  Each reader can decide for themself.

[Daniel]

On 11/2/2024 at 5:38 PM, Nungali said:

maybe go back to page 1

 

Ok

 

This is the first line on page 1.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 3:42 PM, Nungali said:

This thread will show articles papers and videos that relate to the  construction of Judaism as a medium for an historical  political takeover

 

The subject of this thread is a historical political takeover.  Politics.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 3:42 PM, Nungali said:

examine elements of the 'Jewish story' (claimed history )

 

This assumes that you know what is actually claimed.  If you don't, it's likely a straw-man.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 3:42 PM, Nungali said:

an examination of Gods

 

This assumes that you have adequate understanding of Jewish theology.  If you don't, you're not discussing Judaism.  Straw-man.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 3:42 PM, Nungali said:

the appropriation of other cultures story

 

You are accusing Jewish people of cultural appropriation.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 3:42 PM, Nungali said:

history being massaged into Judaism

 

... Massaged ...

 

That's a sinister word choice.

 

On 7/20/2024 at 3:42 PM, Nungali said:

the attempt to twist Egyptian history into their* own .

 

... Twist ...

 

Another sinister word choice.

 

OK.  The tone has been set.  This thread is about attacking Jews and Judaism as the product of an intentional sinister conspiracy to defraud and disenfranchise.

 

Got it.

 

 

[Daniel]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:39 PM, Nungali said:

Psalm 104 follows the same format and almost paraphrases the Great Hymn to Aten. 

 

In order to compare these, it's best to read both in their entirety, then locate the corresponding verses and compare them side by side.

 

On 10/29/2024 at 11:39 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

 

The Hymn to Aten is the Miriam Lichtheim translation from Ancient Egyptian Literature: Volume II: The New Kingdom
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_Lichtheim

 

Psalm 104 is the NRSV translation.

 

Here is the entire Hymn of Aten and Psalm 104 for those who want to read the entire thing.  I've bolded the passages which were indicated as corresponding with each other.

 

The Hymn of Aten is below:

 

Spoiler

Adoration of Re-Harakhti-who-rejoices-in-lightland In-his-name-! 
Shu-who-is-Aten, living forever; the great living Aten who is in jubilee, 
the lord of all that the Disk encircles, lord of sky, lord of earth, 
lord of the house-of-Aten in Akhet-Aten; 
(and of) the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, 
who lives by Maat, 
the Lord of the Two Lands, 
Neferkheprure, Sole-one-ei-Re; 
the Son of Re who lives by Maat, 
the Lord of Crowns, 
Akhenaten, 
great in his lifetime; 
(and) his beloved great Queen, the 
Lady of the Two Lands, 
Nefer-nefru-Aten Nefertiti, 
who lives in health and youth forever, 
The Vizier, 
the Fanbearer on the right of the King, 

----- 

[Ay]; he says:
'Splendid you rise in heaven's lightland, o living Aten, creator of life! 

When you have dawned in eastern lightland, 
You fill every land with your beauty, 
You are beauteous, great, radiant, 
High over every land; 
Your rays embrace the lands, 
To the limit of all that you made, 
Being Re, 
you reach their limits, 
You bend them (for) the son whom you love; 
Though you are far, 
your rays are on earth, 
Though one sees you, 
your strides are unseen.
When you set in western lightland, 
Earth is in darkness as if in death, 
One sleeps in chambers, 
heads covered, 
One eye does not see another. 
Were they robbed of their goods, That are under their heads 
People would not remark it: 
Every lion comes from its den, 
All the serpents bite; 
Darkness hovers, 
earth is silent, 
As their maker rests in lightland.
Earth brightens
 when you dawn in lightland, 
When you shine as Aten of daytime; 
As you dispel the dark, 
As you cast your rays, 
The Two Lands are in festivity. 
Awake they stand on their feet, 
You have roused them; 
Bodies cleansed, 
clothed, 
Their arms adore your appearance. 
The entire land sets out to work 
All beasts browse on their herbs.' 
Trees, herbs are sprouting, , 
Birds fly from their nests, 
Their wings greeting your Ka. 
All flocks frisk on their feet, 
All that fly up and alight, 
They Jive when you dawn for them. 
Ships fare north, 
fare south as well 
Roads lie open when you rise; 
, 
The fish in the river dart before you, 
Your rays are in the midst of the sea.
Who makes seed grow in women, 
Who creates people from sperm; 
Who feeds the son in his mother's womb 
Who soothes him to still his tears. 
Nurse in the womb, 
Giver of breath, 
To nourish all that he made. 
When he comes from the womb to breathe, 
On the day of his birth, 
You open wide his mouth, 
You supply his needs. 
When the chick in the egg speaks in the shell, 
You give him breath within to sustain him; 
When you have made him complete, 
To break out from the egg, 
He comes out from the egg, 
To announce his completion, 
Walking on his legs he comes from it.
How many are your deeds, 
Though hidden from sight, 
o Sole God beside whom there is none! 
You made the earth as you wished, 
you alone, 
All peoples, herds, and flocks; 
All upon earth that walk on legs, 
All on high that fly on wings, 
The lands of Khor and Kush, 
The land of Egypt. 
You set every man in his place. 
You supply their needs; 
Everyone has his food, 
His lifetime is counted. 
Their tongues differ in speech, 
Their characters likewise; 
Their skins are distinct, 
For you distinguished the peoples.
You made Hapy* in Dat**, 
You bring him when you will, 
To nourish the people, 
For you made them for yourself. 
Lord of all who toils for them, 
Lord of all lands who shines for them, 
Aten of daytime, great in glory! 
All distant lands, you make them live, 
You made a heavenly Hapy descend for them; 
He makes waves on the mountains like the sea, 
To drench their fields and their towns. 
How excellent are your ways, O Lord of eternity! 
A Hapy from heaven for foreign peoples, 
And all lands' creatures that walk on legs, 
For Egypt the Hapy* who comes from Dat**.
Your rays nurse all fields, 
When you shine they live, 
they grow for you; 
You made the seasons to foster all that you made, 
Winter to cool them, 
heat that they taste you. 
You made the far sky to shine therein, 
To behold all that you made; 
You alone, shining in your form of living Aten, Risen, radiant, distant, near. 
You made millions of forms from yourself alone, 
Towns, villages, fields, the river's course; All eyes observe you upon them, 
For you are the Aten of daytime on high. …

-----...

You are in my heart, 
There is no other who knows you, 
Only your son, Neferkheprure, Sole-one-of-Re, 
Whom you have taught your ways and your might. 
(Those on) earth come from your hand as you made them, 
When you have dawned they live, When you set they die; 
You yourself are lifetime, 
one lives by you. 
All eyes are on (your) beauty until you set, 
All labor ceases when you rest in the west; 
When you rise you stir [everyone] for the King, 
Every leg is on the move since you founded the earth. 
You rouse them for your son who came from your body, 
The King who lives by Maat, 
the Lord of the Two Lands, 
Neferkheprure, 
Sole-one-of-Re, 
The Son of Re who lives by Maat, 
the Lord of crowns, 
Akhenaten, 
great in his lifetime; 
(And) the great Queen whom he loves, 
the Lady of the Two Lands, 
Nefer-nefru-Aten. 
Nefertiti, 
living forever.

* Hapi (Nile god) (Ancient Egyptian: ḥʿpy) was the god of the annual flooding of the Nile in ancient Egyptian religion.
** Dat or Duat (The Netherworld) (Ancient Egyptian: dwꜣt) is the realm of the dead in ancient Egyptian mythology.

 

Psalm 104 is below:

 

Spoiler

Bless the Lord, 
O my soul.
O Lord my God, 
you are very great.
You are clothed with honor and majesty,
wrapped in light as with a garment.
You stretch out the heavens like a tent,
you set the beams of your chambers on the waters,
you make the clouds your chariot,
you ride on the wings of the wind,
you make the winds your messengers,
fire and flame your ministers.
You set the earth on its foundations, so that it shall never be shaken.
You cover it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains. 
At your rebuke they flee;
at the sound of your thunder they take to flight.
They rose up to the mountains, 
ran down to the valleys
to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass,
so that they might not again cover the earth.
You make springs gush forth in the valleys;
they flow between the hills,
giving drink to every wild animal;
the wild asses quench their thirst.
By the streams the birds of the air have their habitation;
they sing among the branches.
From your lofty abode you water the mountains;
the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work.
You cause the grass to grow for the cattle,
and plants for people to use,
to bring forth food from the earth,
and wine to gladden the human heart,
oil to make the face shine,
and bread to strengthen the human heart.
The trees of the Lord are watered abundantly,
the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
In them the birds build their nests;
the stork has its home in the fir trees.
The high mountains are for the wild goats;
the rocks are a refuge for the coneys.
You have made the moon to mark the seasons;
the sun knows its time for setting.
You make darkness, and it is night,
when all the animals of the forest come creeping out.
The young lions roar for their prey,
seeking their food from God.
When the sun rises, they withdraw
and lie down in their dens.
People go out to their work
and to their labor until the evening.
O Lord, how manifold are your works!
In wisdom you have made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
Yonder is the sea, great and wide,
creeping things innumerable are there,
living things both small and great.
There go the ships, and Leviathan that you formed to sport in it.
These all look to you to give them their food in due season;
when you give to them, they gather it up;
when you open your hand, they are filled with good things.
When you hide your face, they are dismayed;
when you take away their breath, they die
and return to their dust.
When you send forth your spirit, they are created;
and you renew the face of the ground.
May the glory of the Lord endure forever;
may the Lord rejoice in his work
who looks on the earth and it trembles,
who touches the mountains and they smoke.
I will sing to the Lord as long as I live;
I will sing praise to my God while I have being.
May my meditation be pleasing to him, for I rejoice in the Lord.
Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Bless the Lord, O my soul.
Praise the Lord!

 

Now they can be analyzed, compared, and contrasted, side by side.

[Daniel]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:39 PM, Nungali said:

Psalm 104 follows the same format and almost paraphrases the Great Hymn to Aten.  "

 

 

 

This is not a side-by-side comparison.  Assuming these are accurate and significant correspondences, they do not line up one to one, in order so neatly.  Below is an actual side by side comparison.  The Hymn of Aten is on the left.  Psalm 104 is on the right.  The arrows link The hymn with the Psalm as each passage exists in the full translated text. 

 

[Daniel]

The best correspondences are in sequence and in close proximity.  The close parallel lines.  Analyzing these will give the absolute limit of the significance of any correspondence between the two.  That's what I'll do next.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Fair, there is so much in this thread that is of value. It would be great to have it all assimilated and somehow fact checked

 

What ?   just about all of the relevant stuff I didnt write but copy and pasted including the reference numbers if you want to check on it and come to your own conclusions .  Ya know ... them little coloured numbers after a word .

 

Quote

then rewritten into easy to follow paragraphs as the absolute truth.

 

  Dude !  There is NO 'absolute truth '  !

 

Aside from that , thats what I started doing , admittedly it  is, atm,  a bit 'all over the place . But before I tackle the next section , I will summarise the last one in hopefully in a brief and more connected way .

 

OR

 

I might finish with a summary in my pp  so it has no  ........ 'sabatoogie '  .

 

 

Quote

 

it would be so interesting to read, if only it were possible. Perhaps one day AI will be sharp enough to do such a thing.

 

was that serious ?  

 

 

You do know how AI got and gets its info dont you ? 

 

Edited November 4 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Annotation.

 

 

You have refused to answer my questions.   Now you are complaining because I didn't answer yours.

 

The labels identify who is who in the inscription.  I doubt other readers will be bothered by them.  No one is going to mistake those annotations as original to the inscription.

 

That is all the explanation you will be getting from me.  If you feel it is somehow dishonest, there is nothing I can do to change your mind about it.  Each reader can decide for themself.

 

 

AND they can take this into account when 'deciding from themselves ' about the picture you posted  !    :

 

 

The Shasu (Ancient Egyptian: šꜣsw, possibly pronounced šaswə^[1]) were Semitic-speaking pastoral nomads in the Southern Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or the Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were tent dwellers, organized in clans ruled by a tribal chieftain and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon, in the Transjordan and in the Sinai.^[2] Some of them also worked as mercenaries for Asiatic and Egyptian armies

 

The name's etymon may be Egyptian šꜣsw, which originally meant "those who move on foot". Levy, Adams, and Muniz report similar possibilities: the Egyptian word šꜣs that means "to wander", and an alternative Semitic triliteral root, Hebrew: שָׁסַס‎, romanized: šāsas, with the meaning "to plunder" .

 

The Shasu are usually depicted hieroglyphically with a determinative indicating a land, not a people;^[22] the most frequent designation for the "foes of Shasu" is the hill-country determinative.^[23] Thus, they are differentiated from Israel, which is determined as a people, though not necessarily as a socio-ethnic group; and from (the other) Canaanites, who are defending the fortified cities of Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yenoam.^[24]Lawrence Stager also objected to identifying Merneptah's Shasu with Israelites, since the Shasu are shown dressed differently from the Israelites, who are dressed and hairstyled as Canaanites.^[24][25][b] Scholars point out that Egyptian scribes tended to bundle up "rather disparate groups of people within a single artificially unifying rubric."

 

 

Thrice Daily  ....  see them little higher case numbers now ?

Edited November 4 by Nungali

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Ok

 

This is the first line on page 1.

 

This thread will show articles papers and videos that relate to the  construction of Judaism as a medium for an historical  political takeover

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

The subject of this thread is a historical political takeover.  Politics.

 

The subject is the  construction of Judaism , as per title .  The 'political take over part' is ancient history' and the article is seeing that as ' a medium' not THE subject matter .  Any political machinations ( and I WILL be writing about them , including what EGYPT and PERSIA  and MESOPOTAMIA where up to politically . Political takeovers where all over the place , back then , as where 'deals' , 'treaties' , subterfuge , trickery and  propaganda .  Al parts of history .

 

> examine elements of the 'Jewish story' (claimed history

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

This assumes that you know what is actually claimed.  If you don't, it's likely a straw-man.

 

No its unlikely  as  it is  what is claimed is all over the internet , publications , scripture of three religions based on it . 

 

Daniel, you do not have exclusive rights here on defining  what Judaism claims .    One example is  " Do Jews, OT  and anyone that accepts it  , have a teaching and belief about David's Kingdom "  Of course they do . Its not all about you .

 

 Strawman cancelled !

 

>> an examination of Gods

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

This assumes that you have adequate understanding of Jewish theology.  If you don't, you're not discussing Judaism.  Straw-man.

 

'AN' examination of GODS  ... there are GODS in Jewish theology? I thought it was monotheistic ???

 

Again, if any one wants to see the examination of God SSSSSSS     AND their developments  ... including the developments of 'Yahwists'

 

see the flow charts and diagrams at the beggining of the thread .

 

 

- Stawman  cancelled !

 

> > >   the appropriation of other cultures story

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

You are accusing Jewish people of cultural appropriation.

 

 

I am  'accusing' all the people back then in the Levant , Egypt and Mesopotamia  of it !    Its a fundamental  dynamic of the   MEIS - Middle East Interaction Sphere  ( this postulates not one group becoming civilised and spreading 'civilisation' but sees civilisation as a result of contacts and mixing , on many levels of different peoples throughout that area ) .

 

Even you said there was  a  long history previously of this happening  regarding 'adopting' of stories .

 

yes, 'adopting ' ight have been a better word , cultural appropriation is the anthropological term , cultural MISappropriation is a more modern accusation and probably what you got uppity about . ... a term I did not use .

 

PLEASE NOTE READERS :

 

What Is Cultural Appropriation?

Written and fact-checked by

The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica

You hear about it on Twitter, in news headlines, and at Thanksgiving dinner. But what is cultural appropriation, anyway?

It’s not a concept designed to trick you. Taking off in the 1980s, the term cultural appropriation was first used in academic spaces to discuss issues such as colonialism and the relationships between majority and minority groups. Like many such terms, cultural appropriation eventually made its way out of the academy and into popular culture. (Other examples include gaslighting, an elaborate, all-encompassing form of deception, and triggering, “to cause,” as Merriam-Webster defines it, “an intense and usually negative emotional reaction in someone.” Both spent time as mainly academic words before gaining broader usage both online and off.)

https://www.britannica.com/story/what-is-cultural-appropriation

 

>>>> history being massaged into Judaism

 

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

... Massaged ...

 

That's a sinister word choice.

 

I have never had a sinister massage !  I chose the word  due to its 'softer ' implications  .

 

Sinister ?   Cancelled !

 

Now I see how you are building up some sinister vibe here  before you start to get real nasty .

 

>>>>>> the attempt to twist Egyptian history into their* own

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

... Twist ...

 

Another sinister word choice.

 

Twist ; meaning 'to borrow but change /adapt .   Not 'sinister ' at all .

 

lets look at your accusations and its implications ;

 

Sinister ;

giving the impression that something harmful or evil is happening or will happen.

 

( I did not ... but YOU did ! )

 

singularly evil or productive of evil  (it was not and I am not )

 

1. threatening or suggesting evil or harm  - I certainly did not .

 

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

OK.  The tone has been set. 

 

Yes, apparently , you have set this tone now .   

 

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

 

This thread is about attacking Jews and Judaism as the product of an intentional sinister conspiracy to defraud and disenfranchise.

 

What ?   defraud ???

 

to take something illegally from a person, company, etc., or to prevent someone from having something that is legally theirs, by making statements that are not true:

 

Its not about that at all ... your paranoia is showing

 

 

disenfranchise

to deprive of a franchise, of a legal right, or of some privilege or immunity

 

Now I am taking away Jewish privilege of  immunity ?  

 

Outrageous allegations !

 

 

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Got it.

 

 

 

You certainly 'got something ! '  and it doesn't appear healthy or related to this thread .

 

 

I am going to leave this thread here for the moment   .......  

[Thrice Daily]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Ok

 

This is the first line on page 1.

 

 

The subject of this thread is a historical political takeover.  Politics.

 

 

This assumes that you know what is actually claimed.  If you don't, it's likely a straw-man.

 

 

This assumes that you have adequate understanding of Jewish theology.  If you don't, you're not discussing Judaism.  Straw-man.

 

 

You are accusing Jewish people of cultural appropriation.

 

 

... Massaged ...

 

That's a sinister word choice.

 

 

... Twist ...

 

Another sinister word choice.

 

OK.  The tone has been set.  This thread is about attacking Jews and Judaism as the product of an intentional sinister conspiracy to defraud and disenfranchise.

 

Got it.

 

 

Okay so I’d like to jump in for a minute. I know this debate can get serious and it’s plain to see why it would. It has been a labour of arduousness for you and @Nungali so far and I’d like to suggest a mild detour just a moment, hope this is good, I’ll keep my suggestions/questions short, relevant and hopefully worthy of discourse, (but they are myriad). 
 

The language of Hebrew, contemplated in it’s entirety is a vast network of mathematical precision. Between letters, words and sentences, correct? Please ponder the mystery of this being possible to create? It’s no less unfathomable [or likely] than a Virgin Birth. Listen? What could be Hebraic’s origin? Is there likely one beyond space and time? Or does time and space just work this way? In a perfect cosmic pattern? The construction of Hebrew as a drawn out human haphazard process defies all logic? Surely it was created simultaneously as a completed system by an intelligence that had such a huge mathematical overview no? Or did it evolve from a more primitive code? And if so how do you explain the intricate maths?

 

[I always carried this and when I heard the statement “language of the gods” I never thee it away, what exactly are we even talking about here, has it got anything to do with an actual unsubstantiatable creative force that’s so much easier to define and relate to  in the NT , and even as Ain Soph Aur in the Kabbalah, what is it with so many names for this obviously basic and clean idea that we came from infinite light] [if they are different conduits for god that filtered through human intelligence back then and not other beings in the manifest universe, is it wise even talking about or calling on them at all?]
 

I guess the overall impetus for these questions is less to provide levity at this point and more to ask seriously, amidst all this very important hashing out of historical checkpoints to establish cleaner cut facts and just truths… Is there not something that permeates this story ,that operates beyond this logic we seek and all fact based linear rational? I think it’s somehow important to also respect this infallible beauty that is adorned in the language whilst contesting existence itself in such ways, but can this archaic language be trusted in our present and forever evolving times as a source of truth? Can it be trusted? And if so why? 

[Thrice Daily]

I’m looking more for a human answer if your personal introspect, retro sight and innate understanding thus far…

 

Than purely academic ones. My questions are more speculative and alive. That is what I think is important, presently and now.

 

Asked with Love and Light ❤️ 👂 🍎  💡 

[Nungali]

I think it deseres its own thread ..... thanks .

 

You want to follow this but say its a bit hard .... tangential subjects will make it harder .

 

where do stop

 

The Construction of Light   ?  

 

 

[Daniel]

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

The language of Hebrew, contemplated in it’s entirety is a vast network of mathematical precision. Between letters, words and sentences, correct?

 

I do not study that.  But I am familiar with it.  Yes, as far as I know, it's true.  There are many examples.

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Please ponder the mystery of this being possible to create? It’s no less unfathomable [or likely] than a Virgin Birth.

 

Hmmmmmm.

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Listen? What could be Hebraic’s origin? Is there likely one beyond space and time?

 

From the human perspective, offering a human answer?  Absolutely, 100% yes.  

 

From the academic perspective ..... There's a problem.  

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Or does time and space just work this way? In a perfect cosmic pattern?

 

I vote no.  Space and time are material qualities which include opportunities for random chaos.

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

The construction of Hebrew as a drawn out human haphazard process defies all logic?

 

It wouldn't be haphazard, but, I would not underestimate human-innovation and human-capability-to-create such that a team of talented individuals would not be able create a language system like biblical Hebrew.

 

Something I've noticed when learning about the perceived miraculous qualities of the Hebrew language is that the method used by some to produce the bible-math to prove it are contrived.  This is natural, because, the human mind ( not an infinite mind ) is developing the system which is producing the bible-math-proof.  I'll give an example.

 

There is a rule that some follow.  If there are two words which are known to be related energetically, and the gematria does not balance between them, some add 1 to either side of the equation in order to balance it.  The rationale that's given for adding 1?  It's supposed to be "adding God", "the one-God", to the bible-math equation.  But.  Since 1 is not added consistently; it is only added when needed to force the bible-math proofs to balance properly, the bible-math proofs become a little silly.

 

The rule I was taught, regarding gematria, bible-math, is that it cannot be used to innovate.  It can only be used to support previously accepted doctrine.  The reason is clear.  The creative human mind can and does fool itself to reinforce its own expectations, desires, and aversions in the form of self-fulfilling prophecies and curses.  Math is not excluded from this. 

 

But, this does not in any way diminish the awe and wonder that is produced in my mind-and-heart when working with the Hebrew language.  As I mentioned previously, I have been told that there are other languages which also connect spirit-to-spirit.  And I believe it's true.  Tamil for instance.  Fascinating.

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Surely it was created simultaneously as a completed system by an intelligence that had such a huge mathematical overview no?

 

Yes.  I think so.  100%.  

 

5 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Or did it evolve from a more primitive code? And if so how do you explain the intricate maths?

 

It's a very long discussion, but, to put it simply.... Evolution.  Structural evolution.   I'll explain.

 

 

[Daniel]

11 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

The construction of Hebrew as a drawn out human haphazard process defies all logic? Surely it was created simultaneously as a completed system by an intelligence that had such a huge mathematical overview no? Or did it evolve from a more primitive code? And if so how do you explain the intricate maths?

 

There is another plausible explanation which is brought by materialists and agnostics.  At it's root, it's argued: if the physical universe ( including time ) is infinite, and always increasing / expanding, then, the material world as we know it, including all of the miracles and mysteries of life become inevitable.  Sooner or later, what you're describing as a "haphazard process" ( which would perhaps instead be described as "a random set of highly unlikely events occurring in precisely right way, time, and place" ) would absolutely produce the perfect-storm scenario which would randomly and unintentionally produce the universe and everything in it.

 

Here is a more detailed explanation:

 

Spoiler

Premise:  The big bang.  The material world, here-and-now, is a product of particles and energy colliding and interacting with each other as a consequence of this pulse-event, the big bang.

 

Just prior to the beginning of all material existence, a very long time ago, there was a pulse of energy which started a web of causes-and-effects spanning millions and millions of years continuing to the present moment.  This pulse of energy sent particles in motion, colliding with each other, at very high rates of speed, and under tremendous amounts of pressure.  The particles and the energy have properties which permit relationships and interactions which encourage stability and growth into collections:  forms.  When growth and stability, both, are encouraged, the forms, themself, collect into more complex forms, evolving over time, constructed of layer after layer of stable structures.  

 

Because of the high rate of speed of the particles and the high-pressure environment immediately following the pulse-energy event, the layering of the initial stable structures into forms are forced into simple, repeating, counter-balanced, self-reinforcing, patterns which layer and fold back on themselves.

 

Stable structures which encourage growth have a natural advantage in an environment of high-energy collisions.  Unstable and volatile structures, naturally, will break-down, collapse, or self-destruct on collision.  The stable structures will not.  Over time, stable complex structures will become the vast majority among a few very resilient volatile outliers.  This is what is producing the material world, the physical universe, and any other corresponding multi-verses.  It is the increasing probability that complex-stable structures will survive the high-energy collisions inherent in all consequences of a “big-bang”, pulse-energy event.

 

The end result is a material world where the underlying mechanisms of all phenomena ( the study of chemistry and physics ) can be described in terms of simple numeric patterns ( the study of mathematics ).  This is facilitated and encouraged by the simple fact that the human brain itself is part of the material world.  Itself, the human brain, is developed in the same foundational conditions.  The human brain, naturally, recognizes simple numeric patterns, because it is formed from the same particles-and-pulse-energy as the object of its observation.  Both the human brain and the object are forms constructed from layers of simple stable structures.  

 

To put it another way:  the human brain is highly receptive to comparing and contrasting itself ( pattern recognition ) in its observations.  This is how perception operates at its most basic level.  The brain is comparing the object with itself.  Because at its most fundamental level, the human brain, itself, is the product of simple numeric patterns ( as a consequence of the big-bang ), the human brain will naturally and easily find “itself” ( numeric patterns ) everywhere.  In this way, the human brain is pre-programmed for numeric pattern recognition.  

 

The primitive human certainly realized this looking at their 2 opposite and complementary hands, 5 and 5.  Their 2 opposite and complementary feet, 5 and 5.  Man + Woman = Child.  1 + 1 = 2 >>> 3.  Naturally patterns of 2 and 3 and 5 and 7 and 10 would be included in language, music, art, architecture, magic, mythology, and religion.  The entire material world includes patterns of this sort.  The human brain is predisposed towards appreciating them as "beauty".  Eventually, sooner or later, a language would be developed which incorporates these patterns, to a degree, that there is seemingly endless precision and perfection in the mathematical patterns and correspondences between letters, words, and phrases.  Sooner or later.  It’s only a matter of time.  Because the human brain is built for this type of pattern recognition and the material world is founded on that same type of simple set of repeating patterns. 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

12 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I’m looking more for a human answer if your personal introspect, retro sight and innate understanding thus far…

 

Than purely academic ones. My questions are more speculative and alive. That is what I think is important, presently and now.

 

Asked with Love and Light ❤️ 👂 🍎  💡 

 

This is how I feel:

 

Certainty compromises wonder and sabotages faith.  God, if it exists, and I'm confident it does, requires wonder and faith for the strongest possible communion and relationship.  When exploring science and math, I am often filled with a sense of awe and wonder.  I think this is by design.  The creator designed all of this in a way which is awe inspiring and wonderful.  Also.  When learning Torah in Hebrew, I am filled with a sense of awe and wonder.  I think this is intentional.  When observing newly-weds, perhaps a few days after the wedding, I am filled with awe and wonder.  I think this is intentional.  You mentioned the virgin birth in one of your prior posts.  If it's true, it's certainly cause for awe and wonder.  It's the same for the resurrection.  It's the same for Jesus' miracles.  It's the same for the entire earthly ministry.  It's the same for the entire gospel, and everything that happened after.  All of it, and everything, the great and small, fill me with awe and wonder.  I think that's intentional.  God desires my wonder.

 

That is how I feel.

 

If there is a God, it seems to be encouraging a sense of awe and wonder because, this awe and wonder, curiosity, are a portal, a gate, to communion and relationship with the divine ( that which is beyond the material ).  Many are inspired by the Hebrew alphabet, but, it is just one of many ways to cultivate the necessary, child-like, awe and wonder to connect beyond the material.  That is why there are so many who are connected all over the world in diverse cultures and geography.

 

 

Edited November 4 by Daniel

[Nungali]

I a sure this thread challenges people of faith , but as I continually point out  this is not a faith based thread .

 

If you cant handle a theory with 'not faith based' evidence but one based on history , other records than the scriptural  and archaeology and history . I suggest you stop reading now .

 

Things are really going to amp up  soon ;

 

Yesterday I found a document that surprised me  . I thought I was speculating between the facts , but this document explains it all and is referenced throughout . Of course it is long and complex , but so is this subject . In dues course I will make a link to it  and   detail the significant parts  and  put up a page by page brief description what is on each page . Its drawn froma variety of sources  and looks at OTHER records besides the  scriptural ones .

 

It also has a lot of info about some subjects that have been hard to answer , like the  collating of oral stories, and various myths in the area that got infused with things bought back from the captivity .

 

For now ,   I will two two things ; Briefly look at Solomon , whose Empire or Kingdom was said to be vast in the BIble  and is the basis , really  of my issue with the story . I have said many times , as it appears in the bible it does appear in history or archaeology or other peoples records .

 

 

The weird thing is .... it isnt hard to find at all .... all one has to do is look at Wikipedia  ... on nearl ALL these subjects .  Whats up  ?  Cant people read ?   * 

 

The second is a preliminary link to the paper I found , I am putting it up here first as a record ..... in case 'anything happens' before I get around to 'doing the hard work' for anyone interested that doesnt want to read the paper  from start to finish .  Please do if you can and you will see i have been totally  vindicated of making this up myself OR that is fake OR that it is a conspiracy .

 

I realise I am paddling hard up hill and this story is the basis of belief of most of the organised religions of the world -  and  a few people here , whether they be Jew, Christian or Moslem .   My aim is to help dispell any clouds of delusion and enlighten people .

 

I am also assuming this is an aim of Daobums .

 

First the link to the document ;

 

The Hebrew Myths and the Neo-Assyrian Empire  by Benjamin Toro

 

 

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf

 

and I will post the intro here  ( as I dont like links or videos posted without at least some description of contents ) ;

 

"This project seeks to study the first expression of Israelite literature which would was elaboratedunder the shadow of the Neo-Assyrian cultural influence. This occurred approximately between the 9thto 8thcenturies BCE, before a transformation triggered off by theological viewpoints held in the southern kingdom of Judah between the 7th to 6th centuries BCE. Thus, weshall be considering the first eleven chapters of Genesis, consisting primarilyof Hebrew myth, with a view to identifying Neo-Assyrian influence in the Israelite narrative.The Neo-Assyrian Empire was at the peak of its power between the 9th and  7th centuries BCE.The northern kingdom of Israel became the most important loyal vassal and also the most favored   Mesopotamian Empire by some cuneiforms sources.

 

Perhaps, due to the Neo-Assyrian influences,the northern kingdom of Israel developed the full complement of the criteria of statehood with a developed bureaucracy in the administration, a sophisticated economic system of credit and records, an impressive building activity and a powerful military development. Considering these records, it is possible to assume an important Neo-Assyrian cultural influence in the elaboration of the first examples of Israelite literature, but the problem lies in trying to find them, or some of their traces, within the biblical narratives. This is the very objective of this dissertation. "

 

and the Index : 

 

Introduction

Chapter 1: Theories about the composition of the Hebrew Bible

The Documentary Hypothesis

The modern point of view about the redaction of the Hebrew Bible

Chapter 2: Ancient Israel under the shadow of the NeoAssyrin empire

The problem concerning “biblical Israel”, “historical Israel” and “ancient Israel”

The northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah in their historical

context

The development of the biblical literature in the northern and southern kingdom

Chapter 3: The Hebrew Myths of Genesis 1- and the Neo Assyrian influences

The importance of the book of Genesis as an historical subject

The Myth of the Creation

The Myth of the Garden of Eden

The Myth of Cain and Abel

The Myth of the descendants of Adam

The Myth of the Great Deluge

The Myth of the Covenant with Noah

The Myth of the Table of Nations

The Myth of the Tower of Babel

Conclusion

Bibliography

 

(and within is an historical and archaeological analysis of the state of the 'kingdoms' before and after Invasion ...  they appear mostly Canaanite , with no 'Jewish Kingdom'  of the extent claimed in scripture .)

 

Edited November 4 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Rgerading the myth of the  Kingdom of David and Slomon's empire  .....

 

its as simple as this guys

 

a mere wikipedia link !   What no one ever looks up 'Bible stuff  '   up  ?    I guess not  , its taken at face value , or  people dont bother to 'read down the bottom of the page  '  ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon

 

Historical evidence of King Solomon other than the biblical accounts has been so minimal that some scholars have understood the period of his reign as a 'Dark Age' (Muhly 1998). The first-century Romano-Jewish scholar Josephus in Against Apion, citing Tyrian court records and Menander, gives a specific year during which King Hiram I of Tyre sent materials to Solomon for the construction of the Temple.^[57] However, no material evidence indisputably of Solomon's reign has been found. Yigael Yadin's excavations at Hazor, Megiddo, Beit Shean and Gezer uncovered structures that he and others have argued date from Solomon's reign,^[58][59] but others, such as Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, argue that they should be dated to the Omride period, more than a century after Solomon.^[37]

According to Finkelstein and Silberman, authors of The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts,^[60] at the time of the kingdoms of David and Solomon, Jerusalem was populated by only a few hundred residents or less, which is insufficient for an empire stretching from the Euphrates to Eilath. According to The Bible Unearthed, archaeological evidence suggests that the kingdom of Israel at the time of Solomon was little more than a small city state, and so it is implausible that Solomon received tribute as large as 666 talents of gold per year. Although both Finkelstein and Silberman accept that David and Solomon were real inhabitants of Judah about the 10th century BCE,^[11] they claim that the earliest independent reference to the Kingdom of Israel is about 890 BCE, and for Judah about 750 BCE. They suggest that because of religious prejudice, the authors of the Bible suppressed the achievements of the Omrides (whom the Hebrew Bible describes as being polytheist), and instead pushed them back to a supposed golden age of Judaism and monotheists, and devotees of Yahweh. Some Biblical minimalists like Thomas L. Thompson go further, arguing that Jerusalem became a city and capable of being a state capital only in the mid-7th century.^[61] Likewise, Finkelstein and others consider the claimed size of Solomon's temple implausible.

 

I must have  referenced  Finklestein a half dozen times here ... he is a BONA FIDE JEWISH SCHOLAR  !  of course that has been glossed over by my critic here . 

 

 

Lets go on about this Solomon character a bit  what dies the rest of the wiki article state ?

Well, there is the religious view based on faith , but that isnt part of this threads focus  ( it shows 'evidence ' based on 'traces of cinnamon in a pot' if you want to read it )

 

But the rest of the article makes it clear ... this is a character from mythology ;

 

Preamble :

 

As with most biblical personages in the middle era of Israelite society, the historicity of Solomon is hotly debated. Current consensus states that regardless of whether or not a man named Solomon truly reigned as king over the Judean hills in the tenth century BCE, the biblical description of his apparent empire's lavishness is almost surely an anachronistic exaggeration.^[11][9]

 

and

 

The archaeological remains that are considered to date from the time of Solomon are notable for the fact that Canaanite material culture appears to have continued unabated; there is a distinct lack of magnificent empire, or cultural development. Indeed, comparing pottery from areas traditionally assigned to Israel with that of the Philistines points to the latter having been significantly more sophisticated

 

that is , they appear to have been Caaanites .

 

MYTH OF SOLOMON

 

Was this even monotheism ? 

 

" From a critical point of view, Solomon's building of a temple for Yahweh should not be considered an act of particular devotion to Yahweh because Solomon is also described as building places of worship for a number of other deities. "

 

( and what happened to him ?  He worshiped 'other Gods'   so IMO the redaction had to  destroy hi for that as was 'disobedient '  (note , that little art is IMO ! )

 

 what else did he do ?

 

he practised magic , had animals dance for him and  marched into his kitchen offering themselves up as food .

 

The building of the temple was done with the help of a magical worm , whose mere touch split the rocks * and then angels helped put them in place .

 

sailed through the air on a throne of light placed on an eagle

 

 then there was the magic throne that followed him around and went wherever he did ... it is described as 'mechanical' in its workings ** .

 

Its all there in the article .

 

 

 *Off topic but another   good subject .   Stories go around and get appropriated .  How DID they cut those big blocks ?  Today we do it by a diamond cable or chain , a constant abrasion with the loop running around pulleys  and a motorised driving wheel .  In the past it was done with rope  (or perhaps something similar and better ) and abrasive powder and the rope pulled back and forward  (I have seen this myself on minature scale - a Maori carving a ' Tiki' out of jade using  merely , a cotton  spool . Its the  powdered jade that does the cutting, whne the cotton breaks, he just moved onto the next bit of cotton on the spool )

 

Perhaps as the story passed on it was seen as a 'worm ' that touched the rock ' and caused it to  be 'cleft '

 

**   We have evidence of later such  'machines' ( a bit simpler though    ) . hey where used to impress court and visitors ,  to the capacity of the Empire .

 

of course, if Solomon was to be built up to their level, he would have to have these things .

 

   last note before I go on later ;

 

 all religions are faith based , 'suffer redaction '  HAD  politically motived  agendas  in their construction  .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

This is how I feel:

 

Certainty compromises wonder and sabotages faith.  God, if it exists, and I'm confident it does, requires wonder and faith for the strongest possible communion and relationship.  When exploring science and math, I am often filled with a sense of awe and wonder.  I think this is by design.  The creator designed all of this in a way which is awe inspiring and wonderful.  Also.  When learning Torah in Hebrew, I am filled with a sense of awe and wonder.  I think this is intentional.  When observing newly-weds, perhaps a few days after the wedding, I am filled with awe and wonder.  I think this is intentional.  You mentioned the virgin birth in one of your prior posts.  If it's true, it's certainly cause for awe and wonder.  It's the same for the resurrection.  It's the same for Jesus' miracles.  It's the same for the entire earthly ministry.  It's the same for the entire gospel, and everything that happened after.  All of it, and everything, the great and small, fill me with awe and wonder.  I think that's intentional.  God desires my wonder.

 

That is how I feel.

 

If there is a God, it seems to be encouraging a sense of awe and wonder because, this awe and wonder, curiosity, are a portal, a gate, to communion and relationship with the divine ( that which is beyond the material ).  Many are inspired by the Hebrew alphabet, but, it is just one of many ways to cultivate the necessary, child-like, awe and wonder to connect beyond the material.  That is why there are so many who are connected all over the world in diverse cultures and geography.

 

 

 

 

Wonderful , great .  I agree !  From the perspective of faith and religion .

 

Please make another thread on that .

 

This is a not a faith based thread .