The Construction of Judaism

[Nungali]

further academic support of my viewpoint ;

here is a further supporting  article of my viewpoint .

Through Assyria’s Eyes

Israel's Relationship with Judah

 

- Tammi J. Schneider .

Tammi J. Schneider received her doctorate in ancient historic from the University of Pennsylvania. She is associate professor of religion at Claremont Graduate University teaching Hebrew Bible and ancient historic. Most recently she published her book Judges in the Berit Olam series published by Liturgical Press. She is the editor for the Ancient Near East section of the journal Religious Studies Review. She currently codirects the renewed archaeological excavations at Tel el-Far’ah (South) in Israel. She is a project director at the Institute for Antiquity and Christianity and serves on the board of trustees for the American Schools of Oriental Research.

 

 

" To understand how the Assyrians viewed the relationship between Israel and Judah, I have been scrutinizing the Assyrian cuneiform texts something previously never done. I am investigating how they reported the relationship between Israel and Judah by reviewing, chronologically, references to Israel and Judah in the Assyrian inscriptions. The results should add to the discussion of when and how the concept of unity between Israel and Judah was established."

 

 

A review of the Assyrian sources reveals that they saw no special connection between Israel and Judah. The Assyrians group the two entities with different cities, campaigns and situations. This comparison of the biblical text with the Assyrian accounts reveals that they differ most significantly around issues concerning who instigated revolts and the entry of Assyria into the region.

 

The main question is why the Assyrians would not reveal a special connection between the two when the Bible does? It is difficult to believe that the Assyrians did not know about the relationship, since they were engaged in the area for more than 130 years before the destruction of Israel. They knew about internal revolts of the subject groups and what states were working together against them. It is hard to imagine why they would try to avoid revealing a relationship between the two. The Assyrians infer a relationship between Israel/Bit Omri and the Aramaeans, and between Judah and the southern states. The other entities in the region opposed Assyria with Israel, so why show those relationships and not one with Judah?

 

A more shocking but probably better explanation may be that there was no special relationship between Israel and Judah, or that the relationship recorded in the Bible is more theological and ideological than historical and was thus not discernible from the outside

 

https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/through-assyrias-eyes/

Edited November 5 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 I am still collating the main document , posting it shortly ( having troubles with this site ... i may have given it ;informtion overload  ' 

 

[Nungali]

• The Hebrew Myths and the Neo-Assyrian Empire  by Benjamin Toro

[ ref  https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf ]

 

ABSTRACT

 

"This project seeks to study the first expression of Israelite literature which would was elaborated under the shadow of the Neo-Assyrian cultural influence. This occurred approximately between the 9thto 8thcenturies BCE, before a transformation triggered off by theological viewpoints held in the southern kingdom of Judah between the 7th to 6th centuries BCE. Thus, weshall be considering the first eleven chapters of Genesis, consisting primarilyof Hebrew myth, with a view to identifying Neo-Assyrian influence in the Israelite narrative.The Neo-Assyrian Empire was at the peak of its power between the 9th and  7th centuries BCE.The northern kingdom of Israel became the most important loyal vassal and also the most favored   Mesopotamian Empire by some cuneiforms sources.

 

Perhaps, due to the Neo-Assyrian influences,the northern kingdom of Israel developed the full complement of the criteria of statehood with a developed bureaucracy in the administration, a sophisticated economic system of credit and records, an impressive building activity and a powerful military development. Considering these records, it is possible to assume an important Neo-Assyrian cultural influence in the elaboration of the first examples of Israelite literature, but the problem lies in trying to find them, or some of their traces, within the biblical narratives. This is the very objective of this dissertation. "

 

and the Index : 

 

Introduction

Chapter 1: Theories about the composition of the Hebrew Bible

The Documentary Hypothesis

The modern point of view about the redaction of the Hebrew Bible

Chapter 2: Ancient Israel under the shadow of the NeoAssyrin empire

The problem concerning “biblical Israel”, “historical Israel” and “ancient Israel”

The northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah in their historical

context

The development of the biblical literature in the northern and southern kingdom

Chapter 3: The Hebrew Myths of Genesis 1- and the Neo Assyrian influences

The importance of the book of Genesis as an historical subject

The Myth of the Creation

The Myth of the Garden of Eden

The Myth of Cain and Abel

The Myth of the descendants of Adam

The Myth of the Great Deluge

The Myth of the Covenant with Noah

The Myth of the Table of Nations

The Myth of the Tower of Babel

Conclusion

Bibliography

 

(and within is an historical and archaeological analysis of the state of the 'kingdoms' before and after Invasion ...  they appear mostly Canaanite , with no 'Jewish Kingdom'  of the extent claimed in scripture .)

 

Major themes :

Page 5  ( note ; of the  PDF  file )

This project seeks to study the first expression of Israelite literature which  was elaborated under the shadow of the Neo-Assyrian cultural influence. This occurred approximately between the 9th to 8th centuries BCE,in the southern kingdom of Judah

between the 7th to 6thcenturies BCE

Secondly, it seems that the Hebrew myths were elaborated under the rule of the unified kingdom of David and Solomon

the Golden Age of Israel

Where they following  old Mesopotamian traditions, or they were simply imitating the Mesopotamian myths that they came into contact with when the Judahites were in exile in Babylon during the

6th century BCE.

.... and further info related to this

end part 1 go to art 2 below

Edited November 5 by Nungali

[Nungali]

PT 2 of above

 

of the unifi

 

p6

maintains that the Hebrew Bible was the result of the accumulation over time of many strata of literary work and the conflation of a variety of sources(J, E, P and D) and genres (laws,prophecies, poems,sagas, etc). It was a product of a continuous process of composition that stretched over

hundreds of years.

Following the archaeological data,they rule out the existence of the famous and powerful unified kingdom of David and Solomon.

 

p. 7 - 11  the states of Palestine and the Neo-Assyria

it seems that ancient Israelites decided to write their own History in the 9th century BCE when they had already elaborated three important institutions:

a sole royal dynasty, a land of their own and a unique temple

. Following that, it seems natural to have elaborated a national narrative as a clear intellectual manifestation of social and political evolution, which came to be known as the “Solomonic Enlightenment”

 

p8  theories on how and why the Hebrew bible was written and "the parts and divisions of the Hebrew bible

p11.  - 20    Modern views on redaction of Hebrew bible

(redaction :\ noun. 1 a : an act or instance of preparing something for publication. b : an act or instance of obscuring or removing something from a document prior to publication or release. 2 : a work that has been redacted : edition, version )

 

p 20  

The Problem concerning “biblical Israel”, “historical Israel” and “Ancient Israel”

However, some of these ancestors had not once lived in Judah and they decided to write a history which explained their own post exilic society and also the privileges of these immigrants within the new society that they would create in Judah. In this matter, these people inherited a certain mount of literary material, oral traditions and other element from earlier times that have survived in pre

-exilic Palestine (specifically, stories about kings, warrior, holy men, cultic songs and prophecies) and wrote their own ideological history of its society. In this way, the Israel described in the Hebrew Bible was the final product, the biblical Israel.

p21 The historical view of Israel

 and the value of the historical approach

The biblical Israel, as we said before, is an ideological product elaborated between 6th and 4th centuries BCE, which means, many centuries after the events that it described. In another aspect, many of the events described in the biblical narrative may have never been absolutely corroborated by extra-biblical sources or archaeological finds. The historical Israel, on the other hand, represents a historic reality reconstructed by the archaeological data in a very difference view with respect of the biblical one.

Thus, the information rescued by archaeological digs gives important information about

the evolution of this Israelite/Judahite society, especially in aspects which the Hebrew Bible never has given any description.

 

p22 how other peoples saw and recoded Israel  and how Israel did itself see itself (from archaeology sources NOT the bible

 and

 

p23

searching the origin of the first Israelite narrative inside its own historical evolution.

within this p23

The Problem concerning “biblical Israel”, “historical Israel” and “Ancient

Israel” .Including Finklesteins work , Jewish scholar that I have previously cited (as he is THE expert )

 

p24

Notwithstanding, their histories were manipulated by the creativity and the ideological approaches of authors of other centuries, who changed some elements for later ideological reasons. 

(which is something I speculated on earlier )

 ... and where these people may have come from

 

p25 their cananite origin

then follows a lot of good info   about who these abcient people where    eg

 

p26 the spread of the different states in the area

 

p27

"Thus, the historical reconstruction of this period still depends to a large degree

on the biblical testimony, specifically with respect to the birth of Israel as state. But it has not been possibleto discover any powerful kingdom such as the Unified Kingdom of David and Solomon described in the Hebrew Bible in any extra biblical texts of the Ancient Near East."

 

p28  Solomons kingdom disputed "we want to insist, there are no extra biblical evidences in the

Ancient Near East on this important kingdom. Moreover, the extant material remained from this Solomonic period was the subject of many objections to some archaeologists as Finkelstein.

examples follow

 

p30

With respect to this historical entity, some scholars and ancient sources call it “Samaria” “Israel”, “northern kingdom of Israel” or simply “the House of Omri”. The last name is explained by the fact that at the beginnings of the 9thcentury BCE, a royal family ruled this region and established as capital the city of Samaria. Thus, the Neo-Assyrian sources, for example, called this kingdom as it was situated precisely in the region of the Central Hills of Palestine and became into a political power around the 9th century BCE. This means that the northern kingdom became a territory governed by bureaucratic machinery, social stratification, large building activity, and developed settlement system and prospering economic project thanks to trade with neighbouring

regions, especially Phoenicia.Indeed, from an archaeological point of view, during the 9th century BCE it is possible to identify this entity as a small Phoenician satellite state

 

follows a bit more information about where it was .

p32 and 33 talk about a developed kingdom (north Israel)

p33 introduces the new assyrian empire - In their view  they see the area as a  'Syrian / Palestinian state '

These Syro-Palestine powers decided to create a coalition against this new power coming from Mesopotamia, facing in the battle of Qarqar in 853 BCE, where the Assyrian army defeated a coalition army of the Syro-Palestine region led by the Aramaean King Hadadezer of Damascus, son of the King Hazael."

 

p34 how they then became vassels of the assyrian state .

 

p35 speaks of  a new  strong era for them UNDER this vasselship  and that a new class in society arose

"Suddenly, a prosperous stratum of landowner, officials, military and merchants had set themselves above the traditional small farmer then it goes on to the changing dynamics in Assyria  then the further developments attributed to Assyria in Israel and why it was not a local development 

 

p40 goes on to look at why some Kings under vassel ship in Israel did great things for the people there . but are considered bad in the bible 

 

p41 talks of Assyrian decline a decline in Israel but not so much in Judah (as they where not combined into an empire or kingdom as stated in the Bible .)

- the northern kingdom is destroyed

 

p42 introduces the new vision  "Josiah as one who pursued what was a new vision of the old Israelite religion. A purer form of Yawhism in line with the Law of Moses such as the one contained in the book of Deuteronomy is the quest for the imposition–or “restoration”of the Davidic

dynasty over all Israel; the unification of the land belonging to Israel and Judah under one king ruling from Jerusalem; and the destruction of the cult centres in the north and the centralization of the Israelite cult in Jerusalem.

 

then follows archaeological evidnce

 with a footnote :  "The Hebrew Bible itself confirms that even during the period of Solomon,

worshiping of other gods as Chemosh of Moab and Ashtoreth of Sidon was common inside the kingdom (1 Kings 11. 5: 2 Kings 23. 13). Also Jeremiah says that the number of deities worshiped at Jerusalem equalled the number of bazaars (Jer. 11. 13). Finally, in Ezekiel 8 describes all the abominations that its author sees inside of the temple of Jerusalem, including the worship of a Mesopotamian god Tammuz.

 

p43 religious propaganda is examined

 

p44 the first version of the Hebrew bible is wrtten  and follows the The Hebrew Bible itself confirms that even during the period of Solomon,worshipping of other gods as Chemosh of Moab and Ashtoreth of Sidon was common inside the kingdom (1 Kings 11. 5: 2 Kings 23. - The number of deities worshiped at Jerusalem equalled the number of bazaars (Jer. 11. 13). Finally, in Ezekiel 8 describes all the abominations that its author sees

 

a note from p45  on the then scribal tradition.  .... Thus, as pointed out by Davis himself, the scribal tradition involved a range of activities such as archiving (possession and control of the present), historiography (possession and control of the past), didactic writing (maintenance of social values among the elite), and predictive writing (possession and control of the future

)

. For this reason, the traditional ethos that we can find in side this class created including

the Israelite scribe class works about instruction, speculation on the meaning of life, social

ethics and cosmology (Davis 1998: 75).

 

then p49 goes on to sources other than 'Jewish' ;like the Library of Asherbinipal and other sources  that "Then, could be the first Israelite/Judahite literatures have been developed at the same time under this Neo-Assyrian influence? Indeed, some of the best known stories of the Hebrew Bible belonging to one of the oldest book–Genesis- seems to demonstrate it:

 

and concludes the study on p53.

then follows comparisons regarding the different myths and their 'outside'  sources ( see index above )  .

p78 is the conclusion

 

p79

of the unified kingdom of David and Solomon–the Golden Age of Israel-following old Mesopotamian traditions, or they were simply imitating the Mesopotamian myths that they came into contact with when the Judahites were in exile in Babylon during the 6thcentury BCE.

.... and further info related to this

 

p79  ''It does not matter that the same stories were later modified, transformed or

elaborated by other scribes whose work is known nowadays as the result of the sources JE, D and P. Indeed, a modern reading of many of the books of the Hebrew Bible demonstrate that they ignore, for no apparent reason, the relevance and power of the northern kingdom of Israel in the Neo-Assyrian time. The unique descriptions are in 1 and 2 Kings, where the Israelite rulers are villains who introduced foreign gods, murdered holy priests and prophets and violated Israel’s sacred traditions with arrogant impunity until they were destroyed by the Assyrians.'

 

p80

It was situated precisely in the region of the Central Hills of Palestine and became into a political power around the 9thcentury BCE. This means that the northern kingdom became a territory governed by bureaucratic machinery, social stratification, large building activity, and developed

settlement system and prospering economic project thanks to trade with neighbouring

regions, especially Phoenicia.Indeed, from an archaeological point of view, during the 9

th century BCE it is possible to identify this entity as a small Phoenician satellite state

(my emphasis )

[Nungali]

any commissions , bad editing due to files being pasted, mistakes etc etc , can be remedied by seeing the original age on

 

https://etheses.bham.ac.uk/id/eprint/1722/1/ToroIcaza11MPhil.pdf

[Nungali]

    the original  PAGE on ....

[Nungali]

Babylonian Exile and Beyond

 

How did the Babylonian exile of the Jews grow "larger than life" and take on symbolic value beyond the actual historical circumstances? The reason why the Judahite exile in Babylon became proverbial is because, during and after the exile, the exiled Judahites developed an unprecedented creative energy that resulted in the final editing of the Pentateuch, of the deuteronomistic work of history (the Books of Samuel and Kings), of many of the prophetic books and also in the composition of new literature (such as the Chronistic works of history, i.e., Ezra, Nehemiah, and Chronicles) that reflects the concerns of the returnees from Babylone often more directly than the older literature. In other words, whether in form of careful reverential editing or in form of the composition of new works, the priests and scribes of the exilic community decisively shaped what we simply consider the biblical world view.

 

Since the exilic and postexilic redactors and authors often hide their own contribution to the sacred literature of Israel in subtle additions to older works rather than openly stating their authorship, since they furthermore prefer anonymity or attribution of their works to the great figures of the golden age before the destruction of Judah, Jerusalem, and the Solomonic temple, since they therefore create the literary fiction that the result of their deliberation was already available to the personages representing the golden age, we must deconstruct their fiction to get a sense of their real achievements. To this day, fundamentalist and naïve readers habituated to taking biblical stories as the literal truth have trouble imagining that the story framing the Mosaic legislation (from the creation of the world to the appearance of the LORD at Sinai, and from forty years of migration in the desert to the conquest under Joshua) may reflect the concerns of exilic or postexilic authors/editors rather than actual events truthfully (and passively) recorded.

 

If the above is even vaguely accurate, it follows that the role of Jerusalem in biblical literature is decisively shaped by the experience of loss and destruction reflected in exilic and early post-exilic literature (and in the editorial processes older texts and traditions underwent at this time). For the evident reason of the political dimension of loss and of all hopes for reconstruction, Jerusalem, in fact, is henceforth one of the three central religio-political symbols of Jewish (as subsequently of Christian and Islamic) eschatology, i.e., of any monotheistic teaching about the ultimate things to come, about the end of history, the final condition of the world, and the like.

 

Post-exilic

After the exile, Judah was politically rebuilt as a Persian satrapy, a semi-autonomous administrative province, ruled by a priestly elite that remigrated from Babylonia and whose views and attitudes were shaped by the religious blue-prints for reconstruction drafted in the exile. They were at odds with the local population, rigorously enforced separation from the mixed multitude of inhabitants of Judah, and ruled on the basis of the Torah. This code of law was promulgated by Ezra in the early 4^th century BCE and it served as the legal ideal of a theocratic state (ruled by priests rather than kings). According to the later rabbis, the institution of the Torah as the basic law (in addition to which there must have been oral law traditions of various kinds) brought the earlier institution of prophecy to an end.

 

Religious practices now included the keeping of the Sabbath as a strictly enforced day of rest on every seventh day (roughly conforming to quarters of the lunar month but without real parallel in any other ancient culture). Persian influence is noticeable in Jewish apocalyptic literature (symbolism of good vs. evil, angelology, figure of Satan as "fallen angel" and personified evil). The administrative language of Judah is now Aramaic, the language of the Persian empire, rather than Hebrew. Important new institution are the Levites as auxilliary priests (cf. the emphasis in the Books of Chronicles on this institution with the virtual absence thereof in Samuel and Kings!).

 

The emerging Jewish religion is not just the cult of a state (in fact, it is no longer a state cult at all) but a religion with a sacred center in Jerusalem practiced and adhered to by an extended diasporah. This means, for example, that Jerusalem becomes the focus of elaborate pilgrimages and it is the recipient of lavish gifts and of taxes due to the sanctuary and its officials.

 

In comparison to its predecessors (Josiah’s monolatrism, the commandment in the Pentateuch to worship YWHW alone), this early Judaism is a monotheistic religion (see Isaiah 45!).

 

It should be noted that when the returnees (Armstrong: the "Golah") established this religion in Jerusalem, a Egyptian diaspora (dating back presumably to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 586) practiced Yahwism at a temple of their own located on the island of Elephantine (upper Nile). In other words, "Judaism" was not a monolithic practice and the Babylonian diaspora was not the only form in which Judah- and Israel-related traditions were continued after the destruction of the states of Israel and Judah. Of the temple in Elephantine we know futher that it was destroyed in 410 and rebuilt in 402. It was the temple of a Jewish military colony near the southern border of Egypt (the latter having lost independence to the Persians) and it continued to function in Second Temple times. The community of Elephantine was on friendly terms with the priestly establishment in Jerusalem despite the fact that it initially practiced syncretistic forms of worship (very much like the practices in Jerusalem before the destruction of 586) that were only gradually abandoned in consultation with the Second Temple priesthood in Jerusalem. What little we know about the history of early Second Temple Judaism from other sources is augmented from fragments of letters written on papyrus found by modern archeologists at Elephantine (excavated when the Assuan dam was built in the 1960s).

 

....  and a LOT more in

 

 Lawrence H. Schiffman, From Text to Tradition. A History of Second Temple Rabbinic Judaism (Hoboken: Ktav, 1991), Martin S. Jaffee, Early Judaism (Upper Saddle River/NJ: Prentice Hall, 1997).

 

[Nungali]

The  documentation is SO overwhelming , it  cant all be summarised and posted here .

 

Thats why 'glossary' is often shown regarding research sources, like  :

 

Exile and Return: the Babylonian Context. Edited by Jonathan Stòkl ...

onlinelibrary.wiley.com › doi › heyj

8 Feb 2017 · The Jews in Babylon had inevitably constructed an imaginary and ideal 'Judah' to stave off assimilation to the host culture, which would have ...

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/heyj.12391

 

A sociological analysis of Israelites in Babylonian exile

https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10520/EJC85644

 

The Invention of the Jewish People (Hebrew: מתי ואיך הומצא העם היהודי?, romanized: Matai ve’ech humtza ha’am hayehudi?, literally When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?) is a study of Jewish historiography by Shlomo Sand, Professor of History at Tel Aviv University. It has generated a heated controversy.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]} The book was on the best-seller list in Israel for nineteen weeks.^[12]

 

( not particularly my view on things as he delves into areas I dont .  However it is acclaimed and he his credentials include  Professor of History at Tel Aviv University )

 

I will add more as they come to my attention  ....

 

 

 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

"This project seeks to study the first expression of Israelite literature which would was elaborated under the shadow of the Neo-Assyrian cultural influence. This occurred approximately between the 9th to 8th centuries BCE, before a transformation triggered off by theological viewpoints held in the southern kingdom of Judah between the 7th to 6th centuries BCE. Thus, we shall be considering the first eleven chapters of Genesis,

fascinating, so this 9th to 8th century bc is really where the mustard is. I'm guessing a lot of evidence from this period was subsequently destroyed over the years. 

 

Assyria seems like such a mysterious and valuable place for information. It would be really useful to see a detailed map from back then to help stay organized in the head whilst reading different accounts from surrounding areas for proofs .

[Daniel]

On 11/3/2024 at 2:22 PM, Thrice Daily said:

Fair, there is so much in this thread that is of value. It would be great to have it all assimilated and somehow fact checked then rewritten into easy to follow paragraphs as the absolute truth.

 

On 11/3/2024 at 8:15 PM, Nungali said:

What ?   just about all of the relevant stuff I didnt write but copy and pasted including the reference numbers if you want to check on it and come to your own conclusions

 

1) No one will want to read your writing if you're not fact checking it, first, before posting it.   It's obvious that you're just copying and pasting.  But the quantity is not persuasive.

 

2)  The logic is faulty.  It's circular.

 

There's so much evidence, because details are ignored, because there's so much evidence, because details are ignored, because there's so much evidence, because details are ignored.... 

 

The reason there are so many examples, is because the significance of each example is weak, but that weakness is not examined and the significance is on quantity of examples, rather than strong convincing examples.

 

( Bible critics hate examining details.  They often rush to the next example as soon as possible to avoid the fact that each example is insignificant to the grand conspiracy they're proposing ).

 

This is why it's important to look for the best examples and analyze them critically.  If those best examples turn out to be insignificant after rational inquiry, then the entire theory is weak. 

 

Smoke is not always fire.  Sometimes it's a cloud.  The further the distance, the easier it is to make the mistake, and, this is very distant history.

 

3) it's clear you are already convinced so completely that you are correct that it's highly unlikely you'll fairly filter, moderate, and fact-check.  The bar for your belief is very low for anything which agrees with you and impossiblly high for anything which challenges you.

 

Edited November 5 by Daniel

[Daniel]

10 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Assyria seems like such a mysterious and valuable place for information.

 

One of the problems with Assyrian and akkadian comparisons is that the Ugarite library was translated using the Bible as a sort of Rosetta stone.  Because of this, the English translations are, naturally, going to share similar phrasing and rhythm in their translations which do not actually exist in the original languages.

 

I'll try to find info on it.

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

Imo it was very unfortunate N.’s mother had such a negative response to his experiencing Our Lady, Star of the Sea. Now so much posted, trying to convince whom? 
 

 

 

I am guessing that it is an attempt to validate some negative judgements about Jewish people personally and politically.  And me.  He wants to discredit me in particular, because I correct his posts.  

[Daniel]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Imo it was very unfortunate N.’s mother had such a negative response to his experiencing Our Lady, Star of the Sea. Now so much posted, trying to convince whom? 

 

Also.  Important.

 

His motive is to promote Egyptian religion and mythology, among others, which, he has decided, have been treated unfairly, not given credit.  Not appreciated , perhaps, as they should be? 

 

In this way, the altruistic motives provide cover for the others: the desire to validate their negative judgements, prejudices, past negative interactions and experiences which left their impression... Etc.

 

Edited November 5 by Daniel

[Thrice Daily]

I don't think its like that at all, this is a valuable unfolding and i think all will see it like that. It is a story coming into being and an evolving understanding that you are participating in, challenging eachother and , I think the idea is to uncover any new truths or links previously unexamined if there are some. I fear you may be getting it a bit wrong, I'm fairly certain that it is much more guided with a curiosity and an openess to challenge,,, same with you no?

[Daniel]

53 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

I'm fairly certain that it is much more guided with a curiosity and an openess to challenge

 

That hasn't been my experience.

 

53 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

same with you no?

 

Certainly.  However, I have heard a lot of these allegations before.  I had already watched the Yonaton Adler interview, which is why I knew immediately where to go with in the interview to show the faults in Nungali's assumptions regarding when the Torah was composed.

 

If Nungali was open, in the manner you describe, then, he would be admitting he's wrong, and adjusting his point of view due to receiving new information.

 

The simple truth is, it's uncertain when and under what circumstances the Torah was composed.  But the archeological evidence can be used to support either conclusion.  It's more likely the Egyptians were influenced because they changed their theology dramatically after the immigrants arrived.

Edited November 5 by Daniel

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

… It's more likely the Egyptians were influenced because they changed their theology dramatically after the immigrants arrived.

I think so too yes. Ancient Egypt had a pantheon. Except under pharaoh Ahanaton who had monotheism, imo taken from the recent influx of Jewish immigrants. 

 

Edited November 5 by Cobie

[Nungali]

 

New Study of 'Passover Letter' May Change What We Know About the Birth of Judaism

 

" The 2,400-year-old papyrus from Elephantine, touted as the earliest evidence for Pesach, may in fact reference Zoroastrian-influenced rituals, Israeli scholar concludes

The so-called 'Passover Letter' is a tattered papyrus written in Aramaic during the Persian period. It is thought by scholars to contain the first extrabiblical reference to the rituals of Pesach, thus proving that this festival was already well established more than 2,400 years ago. "

(and was offered up here previously as 'evidence' of early Jewish religion , as per Jewish Bible , back there and then )

" Not so, says a new study by an Israeli researcher, which calls into question a century of scholarship on the seminal document and claims the text has little or nothing to do with Passover as we know it. Instead, the letter was most likely discussing Zoroastrian-inspired rituals that were commonly observed by Jews in the Persian Empire, says Dr. Gad Barnea, a lecturer in Jewish history and biblical studies at Haifa University.

If correct, Barnea's hypothesis would have broad implications not just for the nebulous history of this central Jewish holiday but also for what we understand about the origins of Judaism as we know it."

(Note the bolded part ! - my emphasis , and also more proof of my theory . )

 

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2024-11-04/ty-article/new-study-of-passover-letter-may-change-what-we-know-about-the-birth-of-judaism/00000192-dc36-ddcf-a7f7-dc76c3eb0000

 

 

 

[Nungali]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2018-04-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/a-strange-drawing-could-undermine-our-entire-idea-of-judaism/0000017f-db0d-d4e1-a57f-fbcd4a8a0000

 

 

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

fascinating, so this 9th to 8th century bc is really where the mustard is. I'm guessing a lot of evidence from this period was subsequently destroyed over the years. 

 

Assyria seems like such a mysterious and valuable place for information. It would be really useful to see a detailed map from back then to help stay organized in the head whilst reading different accounts from surrounding areas for proofs .

 

I often get a map up on  another window when I need a continuing  reference  .  (In the old days , I would have them plastered on the walls next to my reference library  .  When I started working on our supreme court case . my cabin had charts on the walls , law books open at certain sections , sheets of paper everywhere . A friend came around and "MY GOD ! "  ... and went and bought me my first ever computer  .    . )

 

... and please dont try to follow me using a mobile phone   

 

One thing that is changing things lately is we have a VAST store of cuneiform clay tablets that no one has interpreted yet . But that is beginning to change . In some cases it hasn't  even been looked at .... yet .

 

But as more and more information comes to light from sources OTHER than the Hebrew Bible  .... well ... more and more info comes to light .

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

 

1) No one will want to read your writing if you're not fact checking it, first, before posting it.   It's obvious that you're just copying and pasting.  But the quantity is not persuasive.

 

Oh but that is WHY I AM . ...  I been studying this for years ..... more assumptions on your part Daniel .

 

2)  The logic is faulty.  It's circular.

 

Nope .

 

There's so much evidence, because details are ignored, because there's so much evidence, because details are ignored, because there's so much evidence, because details are ignored.... 

 

What ?   

 

The reason there are so many examples, is because the significance of each example is weak, but that weakness is not examined and the significance is on quantity of examples, rather than strong convincing examples.

 

Dude ... I have been citing experts, University professors ,  trained academics and researchers ... virtually every angle EXCEPT  faith based .  And you say there is a lack of  strong convincing examples  ???

 

Dont forget ... I am certainly NOT trying to convince you of anything . You inserted yourself here as a believing religious protestor ... that started getting nasty

 

( Bible critics hate examining details.  They often rush to the next example as soon as possible to avoid the fact that each example is insignificant to the grand conspiracy they're proposing ).

 

So now research is conspiracy ?

 

This is why it's important to look for the best examples and analyze them critically.  If those best examples turn out to be insignificant after rational inquiry, then the entire theory is weak. 

 

So the best examples be in the BIble yeah ?   

 

Smoke is not always fire.  Sometimes it's a cloud.  The further the distance, the easier it is to make the mistake, and, this is very distant history.

 

Sometimes its a fire by  night and a cloud by day ... and then you are certain to find your way   .

 

3) it's clear you are already convinced so completely that you are correct that it's highly unlikely you'll fairly filter, moderate, and fact-check. 

 

Well, I am 'near convinced so far ' , your antics here are helping to convince me further though .

 

The bar for your belief is very low for anything which agrees with you and impossiblly high for anything which challenges you.

 

Nah .

 

and that was all generalist poppycock and not related at all to the vast amount of data I have shown that supports this view ... even from Jewish sources ! 

 

 

Edited November 5 by Nungali

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

@Nungali imo it was very unfortunate your mother had such a negative response to you meeting Our Lady, Star of the Sea

 

It was negative  ?   She told me I imagined it .  Now I REALLY understand what that might have meant .  To understand that, you would have to  look into   my corpus of posts on 'Daimonic Reality ' ... you can start with this book ;

 

 

 

 

. Now so much posted, trying to convince whom? 
 

 

 

Anyone that is interested   in seeing how they might have been religiously hoodwinked .     I  would not be surprised that Jew, Christian and Moslem find it challenging . 

 

Now, anything else from my  childhood you would like to bring up and throw in to try and cast  some 'psychological self'  - doubt about ?

 

You guys tactics and games are interesting to observe  here .  

 

However I do acknowledge that some members here are not here to seek enlightenment , illumination, etc  .. as 'they' declared that here openly .   Whatevers . 

 

It would be good if they didnt try to subvert that ... on all fronts that are not their own belief system   < coff coff  .... Daniel .... coff >

 

Spoiler

evidence ? 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

I am guessing that it is an attempt to validate some negative judgements about Jewish people personally and politically.  And me.  He wants to discredit me in particular, because I correct his posts.  

 

Rubbish .    Stop politicizing this in an attempt to get it shut down ( censored ) . Also its pure conjecture ... I have some very positive value judgements on some of my Jewish friends !  One of them got me   a favorite job of mine , he was in my martial arts club , we trained together a LOT   AND he helped me to see some faults in my own culture , that he observed  after  living in Jewish culture (In kibbutz specifically , in relation to living on a local Aussie 'commune ' ). His comments and observations where enlightening and spot on !   Another Jewish friend ... I told him about you, he wants to know why if you are such a staunch believing Jew , you would even want to argue in the first place .  I even go to a mate's place sometimes on sabbath  ...  I dont mind pressing the button on his automatic coffee machine for him ... even though I know full well he will do it himself on sabbath if I am not there !

 

So you can stick your attempts at trying to throw this type of mud at me .  ... more personal attacks !   again trying to divert away from the evidence  you  dont like .

 

You are still on with the attempted character assassination since you cant stem the tide of new info coming out ... including from Jewish sources !    You refuse to address anything written by Finkelston !   or the other Jewish scholars I cite !

 

Thats why you ARE discredited .

[Thrice Daily]

so what we are basically saying is that the old testament needs to be rewritten/updated then?

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Also.  Important.

 

His motive is to promote Egyptian religion and mythology, among others, which, he has decided, have been treated unfairly, not given credit.  Not appreciated , perhaps, as they should be? 

 

YOU stepped into a  previous discussion and claimed hermetics came from Judaism and borrowed it dishonestly ... now the evidence is coming out that you where wrong , and I am showing it .. THAT is whats it about . ...  now watch Daniel throw a tantrum and resort to all sorts of disingenuous tactics  

 

But it is me that has 'issues' 'unresolved mother stuff'   and my goodness what will they try next   ! 

 

In this way, the altruistic motives provide cover for the others: the desire to validate their negative judgements, prejudices, past negative interactions and experiences which left their impression... Etc.

 

Bullcrap

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

One of the problems with Assyrian and akkadian comparisons is that the Ugarite library was translated using the Bible as a sort of Rosetta stone. 

 

And  your PROOF on that is ?  

 

here is mine ;

 

His work served as a gateway into the previously uniform block of cuneiform. On the rock relief were three versions of the same inscription, written in three different cuneiform languages: Old Persian, Elamite, and Akkadian. It was the "Rosetta stone of cuneiform".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudurru

 

https://lostscripts.hypotheses.org/242
 

so what is your response  ?   personal insulting insituations about what you suppose my motives are ?  more tactics ? totally ignore it like the rest of the evidence I oput up ? 

 

 

Because of this, the English translations are, naturally, going to share similar phrasing and rhythm in their translations which do not actually exist in the original languages.

 

I'll try to find info on it.

 

Go on then .