The Construction of Judaism

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Maybe I'll check it out to see what mistakes were made, and what information was omitted.

 

 

nothing like looking into something with an open mind is there  ? 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

@Sherman Krebbs, this is what I was talking about.

 

 

 

 

What are you talking about ?   That Sydney University was run by Gnostics ?     

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

<NO!!!!>

< I INVENTED THE WHEEL!!!!!!!! >

This could take a while.

 

God love us…  

 

This doesn't count because you left out all the other evidence that doesn't match ..... please list all the evidence of wheel making, cultures that used it and archaeological evidence .

 

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It's not radical or unknown. It's a theory whose certainty is exaggerated by ignorance and false assumptions.

 

Almost all of the examples of so-called borrowing dissolve under rational examination.  Those who object to faith, suddenly become extremely religious in their devotion to their "knowledge" rejecting any facts which challenges it with moderation.

 

Thats nearly  the exact reverse of how my Uni lecturer  explained the  running away from learning ' all the religious motivated people did .

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

I know nothing of magic, and have only had my own delusional experiences.  I am having one right now.  I blame the black magic curse I am under.   I guess the point was that if Nungali has experienced magic, he does not have to have faith in it.

 

Not really , like I said, its the approach of science ; 'the method of science , the aim of religion ' .   I realize its a radical approach . 

Is someone says 'I will pay back that $50 I owe you ' , I take it on faith . When I get the real $50 note in my hand from them .... thats all I need for confirmation .... ut doesnt matter how they got the 50 to me .

 

I have no desire to convince or proselyte my own religion here  to anyone  but :

" I give unimaginable joys on earth: certainty, not faith, while in life, upon death; peace unutterable, rest, ecstasy; nor do I demand aught in sacrifice. "  ... for me, so far , the first part was fulfilled .

 

You pay me back that 50, and I may just loan you more if you need it .

 

But then, there are those types which insist on 'continued faith ' throughout life and promise 'certainty'  after you die .; "You will get that 50 ..... one day . " 

 

Whatevers ... thats not for me though ....   they dont get nothing !

 

   If you have experienced god, you do not have to have faith in that.  If I have experienced a pinacolada slurpee from 7-11 (it was a long time ago)  I do not have to have faith in that either.  

 

I am sure you already realize who invented the Slurpie ? 

 

 

 

Edited October 30 by Nungali

[Thrice Daily]

True be that

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

@Nungali I know you are a little sceptical to YouTube, but I think youll actually might enjoy this:

It is about how judaism (or at the very least, OT) is either a persian or hellenistic construct (or both), based on research by the school of copenhagen.

One argument I found really compelling, is the almost, if not complete, lack of historians mentioning Israel prior to the hellenistic era. Think about the areas Herodotus mentioned: phoenicians, assyrians, and egyptians (all their neighboors), and even far away people such as the arabs, India, Ethiopia and hyperborrea. Despite this, he seems to have no idea that jews existed.

 

I am considering checking out some of the books they refference.

 

no pressure 

 

 

I'll get to it later , thanks .

 

Hopefully I will eventually find the similar one I saw a while back, its very good and is put out by a Rabbi .

 

of course Daniel will consider him heretical 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

What a scientific and open minded approach, haha..

 

He doesnt like those things, remember .

[Nungali]

52 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 

 

 

Why are you quoting from the NT? This thread is about ‘The construction of Judaism’.

 

 

 

Sorry ... I thought you might be able to tell the difference .  

 

I am not quoting, I am citing or referring , the author was  quoting from the new testament .

 

if you look hard you will see the OT is quoted from as well          

 

Now, where are the complaints I expected that I quoted from OT and not Jewish scripture ? You are slipping up .

 

I'll do it for you .

 

Nungali, that isnt Jewish scripture , its the Old Testament ! 

 

there ! I have been suitably self-chastised !

[Nungali]

< deleted  >

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Some other writers views on ;

Moses, the Exodus, the Ten Commandments

The legend of Moses, rather than being that of a historical Hebrew character, is found from the Mediterranean to India, with the character having different names and races, depending on the locale: "Manou" is the Indian legislator. "Nemo the lawgiver," who brought down the tablets from the Mountain of God, hails from Babylon. "Mises" is found in Syria, where he was pulled out of a basket floating in a river. Mises also had tablets of stone upon which laws were written and a rod with which he did miracles, including parting waters and leading his army across the sea. In addition, "Manes the lawgiver" took the stage in Egypt, and "Minos" was the Cretan reformer.

 

Like Moses, Krishna was placed by his mother in a reed boat and set adrift in a river to be discovered by another woman. The Akkadian Sargon also was placed in a reed basket and set adrift to save his life. In fact, "The name Moses is Egyptian and comes from mo, the Egyptian word for water, and uses, meaning saved from water, in this case, primordial." Thus, this title Moses could be applied to any of these various heroes saved from the water.

 

Walker elaborates on the Moses myth:

"The Moses tale was originally that of an Egyptian hero, Ra-Harakhti, the reborn sun god of Canopus, whose life story was copied by biblical scholars. The same story was told of the sun hero fathered by Apollo on the virgin Creusa; of Sargon, king of Akkad in 2242 B.C.; and of the mythological twin founders of Rome, among many other baby heroes set adrift in rush baskets. It was a common theme."

Furthermore, Moses's rod is a magical, astrology stick used by a number of other mythical characters. Of Moses's miraculous exploits, Walker also relates:

"Moses's flowering rod, river of blood, and tablets of the law were all symbols of the ancient Goddess. His miracle of drawing water from a rock was first performed by Mother Rhea after she gave birth to Zeus, and by Atalanta with the help of Artemis. His miracle of drying up the waters to travel dry-shod was earlier performed by Isis, or Hathor, on her way to Byblos."

And Higgins states:

"In Bacchus we evidently have Moses. Herodotus says [Bacchus] was an Egyptian . . . The Orphic verses relate that he was preserved from the waters, in a little box or chest, that he was called Misem in commemoration of the event; that he was instructed in all the secrets of the Gods; and that he had a rod, which he changed into a serpent at his pleasure; that he passed through the Red Sea dry-shod, as Hercules subsequently did . . . and that when he went to India, he and his army enjoyed the light of the Sun during the night: moreover, it is said, that he touched with his magic rod the waters of the great rivers Orontes and Hydaspes; upon which those waters flowed back and left him a free passage. It is even said that he arrested the course of the sun and moon. He wrote his laws on two tablets of stone. He was anciently represented with horns or rays on his head."

It has also been demonstrated that the biblical account of the Exodus could not have happened in history. Of this implausible story, Mead says:

". . . Bishop Colenso's . . . mathematical arguments that an army of 600,000 men could not very well have been mobilized in a single night, that three millions of people with their flocks and herds could not very well have drawn water from a single well, and hundreds of other equally ludicrous inaccuracies of a similar nature, were popular points which even the most unlearned could appreciate, and therefore especially roused the ire of apologists and conservatives."

The apologists and conservatives, however, have little choice in the matter, as there is no evidence of the Exodus and wandering in the desert being historical:

"But even scholars who believe they really happened admit that there's no proof whatsoever that the Exodus took place. No record of this monumental event appears in Egyptian chronicles of the time, and Israeli archaeologists combing the Sinai during intense searches from 1967 to 1982 - years when Israel occupied the peninsula - didn't find a single piece of evidence backing the Israelites' supposed 40-year sojourn in the desert.

"The story involves so many miracles - plagues, the parting of the Red Sea, manna from heaven, the giving of the Ten Commandments - that some critics feel the whole story has the flavor of pure myth. A massive exodus that led to the drowning of Pharaoh's army, says Father Anthony Axe, Bible lecturer at Jerusalem's Ecole Biblique, would have reverberated politically and economically through the entire region. And considering that artifacts from as far back as the late Stone Age have turned up in the Sinai, it is perplexing that no evidence of the Israelites' passage has been found. William Dever, a University of Arizona archaeologist, flatly calls Moses a mythical figure. Some scholars even insist the story was a political fabrication, invented to unite the disparate tribes living in Canaan through a falsified heroic past." (Time)

Potter sums up the mythicist argument regarding Moses:

"The reasons for doubting his existence include, among others, (1) the parallels between the Moses stories and older ones like that of Sargon, (2) the absence of any Egyptian account of such a great event as the Pentateuch asserts the Exodus to have been, (3) the attributing to Moses of so many laws that are known to have originated much later, (4) the correlative fact that great codes never suddenly appear full-born but are slowly evolved, (5) the difficulties of fitting the slavery, the Exodus, and the conquest of Canaan into the known chronology of Egypt and Palestine, and (6) the extreme probability that some of the twelve tribes were never in Egypt at all."

The Exodus is indeed not a historical event but constitutes a motif found in other myths. As Pike says, "And when Bacchus and his army had long marched in burning deserts, they were led by a Lamb or Ram into beautiful meadows, and to the Springs that watered the Temple of Jupiter Ammon." And Churchward relates, "Traditions of the Exodus are found in various parts of the world and amongst people of different states of evolution, and these traditions can be explained by the Kamite [Egyptian] rendering only." Indeed, as Massey states, "'Coming out of Egypt' is a Kamite expression for ascending from the lower to the upper heavens."

Churchward further outlines the real meaning of the Exodus:

"The Exodus or 'Coming out of Egypt' first celebrated by the festival of Passover or the transit at the vernal equinox, occurred in the heavens before it was made historical as the migration of the Jews. The 600,000 men who came up out of Egypt as Hebrew warriors in the Book of Exodus are 600,000 inhabitants of Israel in the heavens according to Jewish Kabalah, and the same scenes, events, and personages that appear as mundane in the Pentateuch are celestial in the Book of Enoch." . . .

In addition, the miraculous "parting of the Red Sea" has forever mystified the naive and credulous masses and scholars alike, who have put forth all sorts of tortured speculation to explain it. The parting and destruction of the hosts of Pharaoh at the Red Sea is not recorded by any known historian, which is understandable, since it is, of course, not historical and is found in other cultures, including in Ceylon, out of which the conquering shepherd kings (Pharaohs) were driven across "Adam's Bridge" and drowned. This motif is also found in the Hawaiian and Hottentot versions of the Moses myth, prior to contact with outside cultures. The crossing of the Red Sea is astronomical, expressly stated by Josephus to have occurred at the autumnal equinox, indicating its origin within the mythos.

Moreover, the famed Ten Commandments are simply a repetition of the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi and the Hindu Vedas, among others. As Churchward says:

"The 'Law of Moses' were the old Egyptian Laws . . . ; this the stele or 'Code of Hammurabi' conclusively proves. Moses lived 1,000 years after this stone was engraved."

Walker relates that the "stone tablets of law supposedly given to Moses were copied from the Canaanite god Baal-Berith, 'God of the Covenant.' Their Ten Commandments were similar to the commandments of the Buddhist Decalogue. In the ancient world, laws generally came from a deity on a mountaintop. Zoroaster received the tablets of law from Ahura Mazda on a mountaintop."

Doane sums it up when he says, "Almost all the acts of Moses correspond to those of the Sun-gods." However, the Moses story is also reflective of the stellar cult, once again demonstrating the dual natured "twin" Horus-Set myth and the battle for supremacy between the day and night skies, as well as among the solar, stellar and lunar cults. . . . "

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I'll get to it later , thanks .

 

Hopefully I will eventually find the similar one I saw a while back, its very good and is put out by a Rabbi .

 

of course Daniel will consider him heretical 

 

 

I watched half so far . Yes it is interesting , but my  I prefer the lecture style as opposed to a .....   ?  'podcast' style . The guy on the right was good , the guy on the left interrupted him too much .  However the guy on right was patient with him  (  Just )  .

 

lets move on to   Shlomo Sand .   Who is he ?

 

Shlomo Sand (pronounced Zand; Hebrew: שלמה זנד; born 10 September 1946) is an Israeli Emeritus Professor of History at Tel Aviv University

 

Sand’s best-known book in English is The Invention of the Jewish People

 

It was reprinted three times when published in French (Comment le peuple juif fut inventé, Fayard, Paris, 2008). In France, it received the "Prix Aujourd'hui", a journalists' award given to a non-fiction political or historical work.^[34] An English translation of the book was published by Verso Books in October 2009.^[35] The book has also been translated into German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Russian, and Slovene and as of late 2009 further translations were underway.^{[36][37][38][39][40][41]}The Invention of the Jewish People has now been translated into more languages than any other Israeli history book.^[

 

^{below is a short article about it}

[Nungali]

Book summary

Sand began his work by looking for research studies about forcible exile of Jews from the area now bordered by modern Israel, and its surrounding regions. He was astonished that he could find no such literature, he says, given that the expulsion of Jews from the region is viewed as a constitutive event in Jewish history. The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that the expulsion simply did not happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Jewish diaspora is essentially a modern invention. He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times. He holds that mass conversions were first brought about by the Hasmoneans under the influence of Hellenism, and continued until Christianity rose to dominance in the fourth century CE.^[18]

Jewish origins

Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed, and that just as most Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Jews are also descended from converts. According to Sand, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion, and mass conversions to Judaism occurred among the Khazars in the Caucasus, Berber tribes in North Africa, and in the Himyarite Kingdom of the Arabian Peninsula.

According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba revolt.^[18] The Romans permitted most Jews to remain in the country. Rather, the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."^[19] Following the Arab conquest of Palestine in the 7th century, many local Jews converted to Islam and were assimilated among the Arab conquerors. Sand concludes that these converts are the ancestors of the contemporary Palestinians.^[20]

Jewish peoplehood

Sand's explanation of the birth of the "myth" of a Jewish people as a group with a common, ethnic origin has been summarized as follows: "[a]t a certain stage in the 19th century intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people. From historian Heinrich Graetz on, Jewish historians began to draw the history of Judaism as the history of a nation that had been a kingdom, became a wandering people and ultimately turned around and went back to its birthplace."^[18]

In this, Sand writes, they were similar to other nationalist movements in Europe at the time that sought the reassurance of a Golden Age in their past to prove they have existed as a separate people since the beginnings of history. Jewish people found theirs in what he calls "the mythical Kingdom of David". Before this invention, he says, Jews thought of themselves as Jews because they shared a common religion, not a common ethnic background.^[18]

Return from exile, Zionism

Sand believes that the idea of Jews being obliged to return from exile to the Promised Land was alien to Judaism before the birth of Zionism, and that the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. On the contrary, for 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem because their religion forbade them from returning until the Messiah came. According to Sand, the ancestry of Central and Eastern European Jews stems heavily from mediæval Turkic Khazars who were converted to Judaism, a theory which was popularized in a book written by Arthur Koestler in 1976.^[21]

Overall intent of the book

Sand explained during a newspaper interview his reasons for writing the book: "I wrote the book for a double purpose. First, as an Israeli, to democratise the state; to make it a real republic. Second, I wrote the book against Jewish essentialism."^[22]

Sand explained in the same interview that what he means by 'Jewish essentialism' is, in the words of the interviewer, "the tendency in modern Judaism to make shared ethnicity the basis for faith."^[22] "That is dangerous and it nourishes antisemitism. I am trying to normalise the Jewish presence in history and contemporary life," Sand said.^[22]

Edited October 31 by Nungali

[Nungali]

I am going to put this here ; a comment from Shlomo  because , sometimes people read the last page or post of a thread and have missed the forgoing and previous explanations ...  this has been asked about a few times  and relates to my opinion in that

 

' Yes it IS a 'story' ... but there is nothing wrong with that .  :

 

" Nevertheless, Sand supports Israel's existence "not because of historical right, but because of the fact that it exists today and any effort to destroy it will bring new tragedies."

 

- this thread is not political nor  about current events  ....   thank you .

[Thrice Daily]

Daniel got some catching up to do now. 
 

I’m going to have to make time to read this. It’s looks like you’ve taken quite some time with this. 
 

Later, for now. Coffee and chats with the ChiDragon, I really like that guy.

[Thrice Daily]

Hopefully this question I’m not too controversial.

 

In the 40 years the Jews were taking that huge detour to get home, what exactly were they eating along the way.

 

it just sprung to mind in the moment, do you know? It was pretty Barron land wasn’t it?

[Sherman Krebbs]

11 hours ago, Cobie said:

18 hours ago, Daniel said:

… Faith implies that there is more happening and influencing the phenomena beyond the individual's perception.

 

Exactly.  

 

English is great because it is so easy to equivocate. :  )   I would probably rephrase your definition as Faith is an acceptance of a thing as existing, which falls outside the realm of experience.  There is more happening and influencing the phenomena beyond the individual's perception. This is might be a tautology.  Faith is different.  Faith is the acceptance of the story or cause of the happening and influencing.  The story or cause of the happening and influencing is an abstraction in our mind, which we accept to exist independently from the mind and experience. 

 

Whether the thing exists or not,  is not the issue.  The issue was whether Faith implies that the thing does not exist.   

 

At a very minimum, Faith implies uncertainty.  It implies the possibility of the thing abstracted not existing.  To have faith, one must first assert that it may be true or it may be false that there is a particular thing happening and influencing the phenomena beyond the individual's perception.  In other words, if someone tells you to have faith, they are saying we are not really sure if it is true or false, but this is what we accept to be true, as opposed to simply accepting it to be true in the first place.   its the difference between saying I have faith that xzy is real vs xzy is real. 

 

The second premise of my original argument "if something is, it need not be held on Faith" is the point.  If you experience something, live it.  You don't need to have faith in it to do so.   If I sit in the local church and am moved while listening to organ music and singing Hymns (or at least attempting to; they are in a different language), listening to sermons, sharing a sense of community with locals, etc. there is no additional story or cause for that experience that needs to be accepted as faith.  It just is. 

 

I guess I am objecting to the term faith, as it implies untruth (or at least potential untruth) in the very real experiences people have, whether they be in a church, synagogue, mosque, forest, nungalis garden, etc.  

 

 

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Hopefully this question I’m not too controversial.

 

In the 40 years the Jews were taking that huge detour to get home, what exactly were they eating along the way.

 

it just sprung to mind in the moment, do you know? It was pretty Barron land wasn’t it?

There is literally zero evidence of the exodus. And I mean zero. Not even an indication that it did happen… other then the book of exodus ofc.

 

Circle.

[Thrice Daily]

That’s not why I asked the question.

 

I asked for someone that may have an answer. It must have been something that has been considered by historians who assert it as a truth.

 

i’d like to hear it. Make more sense?

Edited October 31 by Thrice Daily

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

6 minutes ago, Thrice Daily said:

That’s not why I asked the question.

 

I asked for someone that may have an answer. It must have been something that has been considered by historians who assert it as a truth.

 

i’d like to hear it. Make more sense?

No not at all. If it didnt happen, they did not eat anything. They had no more need for food than Casper the friendly ghost. But maybe you could check Out beduin diet? If it did happen, I guess it would be something like that.

Edited October 31 by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

[Thrice Daily]

Thanks. 
 

So my question would then be, what historical certainty of Jews is the earliest. 
 

they were supposed to have stopped at a city on route back to the promised land right, they returned to Isreal no? We’re there battles?

 

Any of that documented. I heard that Moses was supposed to have died on route but I guess if that’s not true at all, ignore it…

 

What is the first legit bit about the Jews THAT IS TRUE , if the whole Moses thing was a massive con job?

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

Hopefully this question I’m not too controversial.

 

In the 40 years the Jews were taking that huge detour to get home, what exactly were they eating along the way.

 

it just sprung to mind in the moment, do you know? It was pretty Barron land wasn’t it?

 

It is not , or should not be controversial . You have mind and a brain ... or if you like .... God gave you a mind and a brain  .... for a reason.

In my view you are definitely allowed to ask such questions .

 

 According to the Bible ;  Quails  and  ... wait for it ..... the excess sugar that the 'tamarisk manna scale '  (an insect ) excretes out of its anus ;  'honeydew '  .

 

It dries into little flecks  that are white and taste like coriander ;

 

Tamarisk  trees are considered a problem and invasive here . However I have an affinity with them, often they have provided   a little grove or handy camping spot while camping on the edge of a 'desert'  or by the remote coast .  (in some places  WA the   dry and baked desert runs to the coast and as little as 20 metres out the coral reef starts 

 

Spoiler

   

 

 

 

 

" Tamarisk trees (particularly Tamarix gallica) were once comparatively extensive throughout the southern Sinai, and the honeydew produced by the Tamarisk manna scale is similar to wax, melts in the sun, is sweet and aromatic (like honey), and has a dirty-yellow color, fitting somewhat with the biblical descriptions of manna.^[15][16][12] However, being mostly composed of sugar, it would be unlikely to provide sufficient nutrition for a population to survive over long periods of time,^[16] and it would be very difficult for it to have been compacted into cakes. "

 

Exodus 16  ;  ³¹ The people of Israel called the bread manna.^[d] It was white like coriander seed and tasted like wafers made with honey. ³² Moses said, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Take an omer of manna and keep it for the generations to come, so they can see the bread I gave you to eat in the wilderness when I brought you out of Egypt ......    The Israelites ate manna forty years, until they came to a land that was settled; they ate manna until they reached the border of Canaan. "

 

Apparently the flock of quails only came once .

 

Here is another story ;  out 'in the desert' early Australian explorers  where on their last legs , no food anywhere . They cam over a rise  and there where a lot of Aboriginals ; they gave the explorers 'cakes and duck ' and offered big flat bowls of water to the horses .  WOW !

Thing is; where did that water come from ?   and .... ducks ? in the desert ?           Sometimes a bit of common sense is required  when reading things instead of just 'glossing it over' or accepting a lame excuse or explanation .  On checking diaries of explorers , latitude noted , distance traveled etc . they where in an area of a HUGE amount of water ! 

What did all those people drink ?  What did their animals eat and drink ?

 

" There were 600,000 men over 20 years of age, with their wives and children, and flocks, crossing the border of Egypt that day a free nation. Many Egyptians and other non-Israelites joined the triumphant children of Israel, hoping to share their glorious future. "

 

For 40 years !    Come on now !

 

IT   IS   A    STORY  !

 

However , many native aboriginals  do eat 'honey dew' from insects and such insects whole, or nip of the succulent abdomen as PART of their diet .  And 'dessert'  / wilderness can be fertile and full of food , IF you know what you are doing .

 

However , scan pictures of 'Sinai wilderness' - VERY barren .

 

if the writer of exodus , knew of such information, they might have written a more believable story .... yes,  'Bedouins' might eat  'Man' (Arabic - aphids) and collect the honey dew as PART of their diet .  But, as you suspect , the story just does not add up .

 

Simpler answer  :    it a myth and never happened     

 

religous anser ; it proves God can do miracles and the Jews ehre his people as he looked after them (  but due toi 'technical reasons made them suffer for 40 years  ... it  gets more tied up in its own shoelaces the deeper we look int it !

[Thrice Daily]

Yeah, at first I looked at the map and the massive detour that was apparently taken and figured the Egyptians would have thought them so completely nuts for taking that route back to Isreal they simply left them alone, or otherwise didn’t look in that direction at all as it was just too outrageous to think they would head out in that direction. 
 

Mental story. Islam isn’t much different with their whole idea of Medina being ancient and all the prophets being buried there. Totally outrageous too, no water there or camel stops whatsoever.  
 

So how exactly did the Jews arrive in Isreal ?thats what I wanna frickin know, and where had they actually travelled from !!!!

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Sir Darius the Clairvoyent said:

There is literally zero evidence of the exodus. And I mean zero. Not even an indication that it did happen… other then the book of exodus ofc.

 

Circle.

 

Lost in the desert 40 years !    Man ! It took me ONE DAY to get out ;   The Pinnacles ... what a place ! I was so vibed and amazed I just kept walking , stared out on dawn . After a while, and a lot of meandering in wonder , I was  getting hot, need water , shit ! How do I find my way back ?  I started out with the rising sun on my right but now it was nearly noon . I soon realised that with a bit of loose time calculation, watching how long it took the Sun to move  and considering the direction of shadows , I was able to go back the way I came ... it worked .

 

The Pinnacles :

 

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

That’s not why I asked the question.

 

I asked for someone that may have an answer. It must have been something that has been considered by historians who assert it as a truth.

 

 

Sorry ?  What 'historians' considered it truth ?    'Bible historians '  ?

 

i’d like to hear it. Make more sense?

 

I'd like to hear their explanations too .   Maybe ask Daniel how he explains this one ?