The Construction of Judaism

[心神 ~]

8 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The best example of Judaism's inclusive middle-path comes from our observance of the holiday of Sukkot.  It is our unity-festival.

 

 

Sukkot is one of my favorite festivals.

 

I'd read once that Jesus was more likely born on Sukkot than on the Winter Solstice, but when looking it up just now for context, I came across this author's proposal that there is a stronger case to be made that Jesus was born on the Feast of Trumpets. I'd be interested to know what you think.

 

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

Sukkot is one of my favorite festivals.

 

I'd read once that Jesus was more likely born on Sukkot than on the Winter Solstice, but when looking it up just now for context, I came across this author's proposal that there is a stronger case to be made that Jesus was born on the Feast of Trumpets. I'd be interested to know what you think.

 

 

My recollection is that Jesus would have been born in the month of Nissan.  Passover season.

 

Is the Feast of Trumpets the Jewish New Year?  When we blow the Shofar ( a trumpet )?

[心神 ~]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

 

My recollection is that Jesus would have been born in the month of Nissan.  Passover season.

 

Is the Feast of Trumpets the Jewish New Year?  When we blow the Shofar ( a trumpet )?

 

 

I think so, yes. Tishri 1, Yom Teruah, Rosh Hashanah. From the article:

 

Quote

 

From the proper astronomical interpretation of Revelation 12:1-6 (see previous Post: Jesus’ Birth – Astrological/Zodiacal References in Scripture), the only day in 3 BC which meets the astronomical confluences discussed is September 11, 3 BC, during the period of sunset to moonset, 6:18 pm to 7:39 pm. The close proximity of the positions of the sun and the moon as described in Revelation indicate a new moon time frame, which is exactly the situation which exists on the first day of a Jewish lunar month, as on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Jesus must have been born on the Feast of Trumpets, as no other day of the year in 3 BC could astronomically meet the specific requirements detailed in Revelation.

 

We can then also conclude that Jesus’ birth was not on the Feast of Tabernacles or on Passover, as others have proposed. Both the Feast of Tabernacles and Passover occur in the middle of lunar months; therefore, there can be no new moon, as required by Revelation 12:1-6.

 

 

[Daniel]

2 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

think so, yes. Tishri 1, Yom Teruah, Rosh Hashanah

 

Thank you.  I asked because Nissan and Tishrei are a pairing. 

 

4 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

From the article

 

... Reading it now . 

[心神 ~]

5 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

I asked because Nissan and Tishrei are a pairing. 

 

 

Is that because they both mark the beginning of a cycle?

 

[Daniel]

19 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

I came across this author's proposal that there is a stronger case to be made that Jesus was born on the Feast of Trumpets. I'd be interested to know what you think.

 

From the article:

 

"We can then also conclude that Jesus’ birth was not on the Feast of Tabernacles or on Passover, as others have proposed.  Both the Feast of Tabernacles and Passover occur in the middle of lunar months; therefore, there can be no new moon, as required by Revelation 12:1-6."

 

I think the author is mistaken.  On a "new-moon" the moon is missing from the sky.  In Rev 12:1 the moon is there.  On the 1st of Tishrei, there is no moon.  It is completely occluded.  Therefore it cannot be Rosh-Hashanna.  There is not a moon visible in the sky.

 

Passover, BTW, is the 15th of Nissan.  The middle of the month.  A full moon.

[心神 ~]

 

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. (Rev 12:1)

 

Because the moon is positioned under the body and the sun, opposite the stars, is it possible it is symbolic of a dark (new) moon? 

 

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, 心神 ~ said:

Is that because they both mark the beginning of a cycle?

 

Basically yes.  

 

 

[Daniel]

1 minute ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. (Rev 12:1)

 

Because the moon is positioned under the body and the sun, opposite the stars, is it possible it is symbolic of a dark (new) moon? 

 

Sure.  Why not?

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

It doesn't need to be through Noah. 

 

I know, but that was the suggestion ... not made by me either .

 

 

If the two nations, Egypt and Israel, have a common lineage which split at some point in their development, then, that would explain the similarities and the differences in their theology and mythology.  "Borrowing" is not the only explanation.

 

That doesnt make any sense at all Daniel .  Interaction and  'similarities' started happening in the  'Middle east ' interaction sphere ' way before even the Egyptian 'nation' or any other 'nation'  existed .   You are again, going back to 'Bible stories' or Jewish scripture that supposes the Jews came out of the nation of Egypt .  'Common lineage '    happened MUCH earlier .

Lineage is about   descent from family anyway .  And according to the bible , that would go back to Noah anyway .

 

Further, it's highly unlikely that Judaism was "constructed" in the manner which you're describing.  Think about it.  According to your theory, ( as I understand it, which could be wrong ),

 

Yes, you are certainly wrong !    Looking at what you wrote below   below .  Thats a rather mixed up and unworkable postulation , and you are making it as you cant look outside the scriptural story . I will get to my fuller explanation later .

 

This is a preempt  criticism on what I have not explained yet .

 

I thought you where on holidays s  ? 

 

 

approx 500 bce, the Jewish people had settled ( forcibly ) in a land which belonged to other nations. 

 

No . Remember I am considering what many scholars (including Jewish ones ) are considering ; there was no Kingdom of David of Empire of Israel this early .  There where other nations  in the area  and   towns and settlements  with varied religions and outlooks depending on the cultural mixing they had , this bought about also the cultural mixing  of concepts of divinity or Gods - see the flow and influence charts towards the beginning of this thread

 

Then they were exiled in Babylonia where Judaism was constructed, their prior ethnic lineage

 

Many people where  FIRST taken away  and back to Mesopotamia  , that first expansion from Mesopotamia went all the way through  Egypt ,  across the south Med coast over to North Africa .  The roots of Judaism may have been established   (again see the 'god flow charts' at the beginning  - its important to hold previous information in mind , or one gets lost - I cant keep repeating all the info collated here everytime someone has not read it or forgot it , )  in towns or settlements like Judea  and Jerusalem , and at this time archaeology does show a temple at Jerusalem , but not a large settlement - it is thought the temple served a greater area  and we not sure what religion/s  operated out from there .

 

I had planned to  write this all in detail with the  Empires, rulers , internal and external dynamics with dates and references , later

 

was completely and absolutely erased and replaced

 

NO ... I never said that nor will I be saying that .

 

with a manufactured ethnicity

 

NO !  a 'massaged ' past history  added to and built up from adopted regional (including Mesopotamian and Persian ) cultural sources

 

which flip-flopped reality

 

'reality' is you value judgement

 

positioning themselves, the Jewish leaders ( the levite cult of renegade Egyptian scribes ), as the priests who ruled by the edge of a sword.   Every single Jewish person in the Israelite nation agreed to this new-version of history, everyone dropped their prior family history and religion and adopted a new-one ( borrowed from the Egyptians, Persians, Greeks and Romans), all at once, all the Jews, all together during the Babylonian exile.

 

nah ... you are wildly postulating what you think I am going to say .

 

It would need to be a complete ethno-genesis, because, for over 2000 years none of us had considered that the entire story was fabricated such that we are not Jews, we're Egyptians who stole the religion and mythology form others. 

 

   I never claimed Jews where Egyptians    .

 

 It's completely unrealistic. 

 

It certainly was  !   Why did you imagine it then ?             

 

There was an ethno-genesis, but not in that extremely unrealistic manner. 

 

Agreed !

 

The best example to look at is American ethno-genesis.  It is similar to the ethno-genesis of Israel.   Land was purchased, but there was a bitter war, which lasted many years, much blood was shed.  At the end of the war, a new nation emerged, America.  Many, many new Americans, however, retain their prior ethnicity as German-Americans, African-Americans, Spanish-Americans, Dutch-Americans.  Those who were native to the land often refer to themselves as Native-Americans.  The point is, in an ethno-genesis like this, it is impossible to completely and thoroughly erase the prior ethnicity.  Even if there is a conspiracy to re-write history during the Babylonian exile and in the years following, it would be impossible to erase everyone's ethnicity.  If Judaism was constructed in the Babylonian exile, then there would be some Jews who identify with their historically correct ethnicity.  Some of them would have retained their true history of their heritage. 

 

If what you've written ( and implied ) is true, then every single Jewish family which returned to Israel after exile is a liar and thief. 

 

Settle down , I am not implying that at all . Thats just silly and inflammatory .  Most people today dont know much of history  , even  a few decades back , and conflict and info that is given about people and origins is often confused or forgotten . I shall explain my position in greater detail later .  

 

... cause I am on holidays .

 

And when they returned to Israel, all of those liars were able to convince the other Jews who remained in Israel to erase their heritage as well, even though there was a bitter civil war with factions who didn't trust each other or work together.  It is highly unlikely that the Judeans ( the tribe of Judah, the ones in power ) would have been able to convince the Northern Kingdom to go along with the conspiracy.  They were enemies.  ( Generally.  It's not a black/white dichotomy ).

 

Let's suppose, in theory, that the Jewish leadership, the levites, the renegade Egyptian scribes, perpetrated their conspiracy, their ethno-genesis, stealing from the Egyptians and Persians, by force.  Let's suppose that any Jewish person with good morals who did not agree to go a long with the new-and-improved, but completely fabricated, cultural history, was murdered.  Even then, there would the story of the slaughters, the murders, the intimidation.

 

Look, if they had an Empire like they claimed back then , why did not  anyone   record it ? They recorded all such other groups in the area  at the time .  So, if  they where accurate - no record , if  inaccurate  " Even then, there would the story " , as you say , from other sources ... other than the  Jewish scripture .  You cant have it both ways .

 

This is why conspiracy theories fail.

 

Now you are being disingenuous and rude again . It is not a conspiracy theory, it is a valid historical theory that I have given reference to over and over again . And AGAIN I  will mention that some Jewish academics say this too  AND I have given reference to that previously . 

 

You are slipping back into your 'tactics' again .

 

  The theory may have a legitimate foundation, basis for inquiry, but the theory balloons into an epic, very creative, narrative which is wholly unrealistic to the point of being absurd.

 

They way you distorted it indeed does make it sound like a conspiracy theory ... if one ignores ALL the past posts , references , Jewish scholars opinions , flow charts and diagrams and academic research . It is YOU that are trying to make it look absurd .

 

I think we know why . Again  ( and again and again ) this is NOT a faith based thread . You have Judaism as a religion  - good on you !  Enjoy your holiday with your family .  Its not about that .

 

 

Not the whole world.  Just these two neighboring nations.   Both nations emerged from the same region?  They are close to each other?

 

You didn't consider that the two nations, Israel and Egypt, would have similarities naturally?  As a natural consequence of their physical proximity? 

 

Now it seems you are agreeing with one of my points you previously disagreed on ;  that a lot of  descriptions in the  scripture  are taken from Egyptian culture  !    One classic  example that academics talk about is the 'movable shrine ' that they took sometimes into battle , and it had 'powers' - an Anpu one was found in Tuts tomb , along with chests with  winged 'angels' whose wing tips meet  and is carried by two long poles put through rings attached to it .

 

Sound familiar ?

 

This has already been address in the thread . As I said , I have already collated  this info , revision should be on the part of the reader that didnt read or watch it , not on the writer who already wrote it .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Ummmmm.  The Talmud teaches the opposite...White and black are contrasting-and-harmonious.  White+White is too white.  

 

אמר ר"ל גבוה לא ישא גבוהית שמא יצא מהן תורן ננס לא ישא ננסת שמא יצא מהם אצבעי לבן לא ישא לבנה שמא יצא מהם בוהק שחור לא ישא שחורה שמא יצא מהן טפוח:

 

Reish Lakish says: tall should not marry tall, lest there emerge [ a child ] extremely tall. A dwarf should not marry a dwarf, lest there emerge [ a child ] who is exceptionally short. White should not marry white ( לבן לא ישא לבנה ) , lest there emerge [ a child ] extremely pale. Dark should not marry dark, lest there emerge [ a child ] extremely dark.

 

https://www.sefaria.org/Bekhorot.45b.8?vhe=Wikisource_Talmud_Bavli&lang=bi

 

Judaism is a middle path religion, but not a middle path like others.  Other middle paths exclude the extremes.  Judaism intends to bring them together, contrasting-and-harmonious pairs, in the right time, place, and way.  It is a middle path of inclusion.

 

You wrote all that in relation to my 'black ham ' joke ?  Well, .... okay then . 

 

I thought the more relevant part was when the scripture defines black skin as an affliction .  Which is rather an unfortunate way to get out of  some silly old scriptural theory about if we all from Noah... how come black people ?

 

and note, before you go off again and start changing things  ... I said 'some scriptural theory ' ,  and NOT  'Jews are prejudiced against black people '

[Thrice Daily]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Look, if they had an Empire like they claimed back then , why did not  anyone   record it ? They recorded all such other groups in the area  at the time .  So, if  they where accurate - no record , if  inaccurate  " Even then, there would the story " , as you say , from other sources ... other than the  Jewish scripture .  You cant have it both ways .

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, 心神 ~ said:

 

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. (Rev 12:1)

 

Thats a common image of Mary in the form of Stella Maris  - 'Our Lady Star of the Sea ', patron of navigators and all who travel upon the sea . Mary is often depicted as standing on the Moon , sometimes its just a subtle shape, but it is there .

 

 

Both Moon and 'Great Sea' are symbols of the unconcious , the 12 stars are usually the houses of the Zodiac . The Moon is (supposedly ) the regulator of those forces that brings them to earth . ( via and modified by the angular arrangements of the planets .  Wach out for her ! She is said to be destructive force in scripture   ... and dangerous to the era of patriarchal rule !

 

 

Quote

Because the moon is positioned under the body and the sun, opposite the stars, is it possible it is symbolic of a dark (new) moon? 

 

 

Yes.   A  dark Moon is  'conjoined ' with the Sun ,  'conjunct ' ... or even  'Moon combust '  . 

 

 

Edited November 2 by Nungali

[Daniel]

39 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Interaction and  'similarities' started happening in the  'Middle east ' interaction sphere ' way before even the Egyptian 'nation' or any other 'nation'  existed  ...

 

... possibly because the two nations have a common ancestry. A common ancestry before even the Egyptian 'nation' or any other 'nation' existed.

 

41 minutes ago, Nungali said:

That doesnt make any sense at all Daniel

 

Why not?

 

42 minutes ago, Nungali said:

You are again, going back to 'Bible stories' or Jewish scripture that supposes the Jews came out of the nation of Egypt

 

1)  The fact that it comes from a bible story should not automatically render it false.

 

2)  it is common sense that two neighboring cultures would have common ancestry at some point in their cultural history because of their geographic proximity. 

 

48 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Agreed !

 

Excellent

 

49 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Now it seems you are agreeing with one of my points you previously disagreed on

 

Agreeing is good.  How we got to this point, doesn't matter to me.

[Daniel]

55 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Look, if they had an Empire like they claimed back then , why did not  anyone   record it ?

 

Back when?

 

55 minutes ago, Nungali said:

why did not  anyone   record it ?

 

Are you asking "why did not anyone else record it?"  Besides the Jewish people who have it in our "holy" scripture?  You're asking why there are no other corroborating sources?

 

Edited November 2 by Daniel

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

why did not  anyone   record it ?

 

1900bce.  12th dynasty official Khnumhotep II under pharaoh Senusret II at Beni Hasan.

 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ibscha.jpg  

 

 

 

[Daniel]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:39 PM, Nungali said:

Psalm 104 follows the same format and almost paraphrases the Great Hymn to Aten.  "

 

The Great Hymn to Aten is 18th dynasty, 1300 bce.  The reign of Aten was a dramatic shift away from Egyptian polytheism.  This hymn is dated after the Shasu are recorded entering Egypt.  The sequence of events is:  The Shasu ( early Jews ) enter Egypt, then, Egypt dramatically shifts its religious practices towards what appears to be a version of monotheism.

 

At the very least, because of the late dating, the direction of influence cannot be assumed Hymn to Aten >>> Psalm 104.  It could be that the immigration of Shasu influenced Egypt in the other direction.  That explains the extreme shift in their religion at that time.

 

Do you have another plausible explanation for the dramatic shift?

 

Here is a source for the above:

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

The Hymn to the Aten

 

In the reign of Amun-hotpe IV-Akhenaten of Dynasty 18 the royal family espoused the worship of the sun disk, the Aten, and neglected the older state and local gods, particularly Amun-Re. The king changed his name from Amun-hotpe (Amun is pleased) to Akhenaten (the effective spirit of the Aten), and he constructed a new residence city at Amarna called Akhet-Aten, the Horizon of the Aten, marked out by royal boundary stelae and filled with temples, palaces, villas for the nobles, workshops for the artisans, and housing for the laborers. Throughout Egypt the names of the old gods were systematicaly hacked out whenever they appeared in public inscriptions on temple walls and elsewhere. The movement was viewed as a reformation, a return to the royal sun-cult of the pyramid builders. It was later regarded as a heresy and did not survive the king's reign. Akhenaten emphasized the international supremacy of the sun disk and his relation to it as a son. In effect, he interposed himself between the Aten and the people, with his worship directed to the Aten and the people's attention focused upon him as the son and interpreter of the Aten. Whether the system can be considered monotheism is debatable. The broad outlook represented in these texts is a development of earlier Egyptian thought with new elements. Noteworthy is the almost anthropologi- cal view of the races of mankind differentiated in color and language. There are close parallels in wording, thought, and sequence of ideas to the verses of Psalm 104. The text is presented in hieroglyphic in N. de G. Davies, The Rock Tombs of el Amarna (London: Archaeological Survey of Egypt, 1908), Pt. 6, pl. 27; this version derives from the tomb of Eye. For a lucid and interpretive account of the king's reign and times, consult Cyril Aldred, Akhenaten, Pharaoh of Egypt, a New Study (London: Thames and Hudson, 1968).

 

W. K. S. 

 

William Kelly Simpson (January 3, 1928 – March 24, 2017)

American professor of Egyptology, Archaeology, Ancient Egyptian literature, and Afro-Asiatic Yale University

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kelly_Simpson

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:54 PM, Nungali said:

“You count out to each the days of life.”- Hymn to the Aten, (1353 – 1335 BCE)

 

Good.  We also agree on this late date.  1353 BCE, at the earliest, is after the Shasu immigration recorded in an Egyptian tomb.

 

7 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Throughout Egypt the names of the old gods were systematicaly hacked out whenever they appeared in public inscriptions on temple walls and elsewhere. The movement was viewed as a reformation, a return to the royal sun-cult of the pyramid builders. It was later regarded as a heresy and did not survive the king's reign. Akhenaten emphasized the international supremacy of the sun disk and his relation to it as a son. In effect, he interposed himself between the Aten and the people, with his worship directed to the Aten and the people's attention focused upon him as the son and interpreter of the Aten.

 

William Kelly Simpson (January 3, 1928 – March 24, 2017)

American professor of Egyptology, Archaeology, Ancient Egyptian literature, and Afro-Asiatic Yale University

 

The Aten theology was new. It makes sense that it came from immigrants, not from Egypt.  The new theology tried to portray itself as a reformation of old beliefs, but, it didn't last.

 

Edited November 2 by Daniel

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats a common image of Mary in the form of Stella Maris  - 'Our Lady Star of the Sea ', patron of navigators and all who travel upon the sea . Mary is often depicted as standing on the Moon , sometimes its just a subtle shape, but it is there .

 

 

Both Moon and 'Great Sea' are symbols of the unconcious , the 12 stars are usually the houses of the Zodiac . The Moon is (supposedly ) the regulator of those forces that brings them to earth . ( via and modified by the angular arrangements of the planets .  Wach out for her ! She is said to be destructive force in scripture   ... and dangerous to the era of patriarchal rule !

 

 

 

Yes.   A  dark Moon is  'conjoined ' with the Sun ,  'conjunct ' ... or even  'Moon combust '  . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Our Lady Star of the Sea... catholicnovenaapp.com

 

 

- look under her feet

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

... possibly because the two nations have a common ancestry. A common ancestry before even the Egyptian 'nation' or any other 'nation' existed.

 

In Africa ?

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

 

Why not?

 

 

1)  The fact that it comes from a bible story should not automatically render it false.

 

Start a thread on it then, I am not getting sucked into your moor diversions and continual arguments that are irrlelevent to the overall issue . They are called stalling tactics .

 

I will post fuller info later .

 

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

2)  it is common sense that two neighboring cultures would have common ancestry at some point in their cultural history because of their geographic proximity. 

 

 

Excellent

 

 

Agreeing is good.  How we got to this point, doesn't matter to me.

 

Good , it also is a handy way of avoiding admission that some of  your past arguments , which you base YOUR ideas on are now admitted to be wrong .

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

Back when?

 

 

Are you asking "why did not anyone else record it?"  Besides the Jewish people who have it in our "holy" scripture?  You're asking why there are no other corroborating sources?

 

 

No, I am telling you you cant have it both ways and I am not going to revist and hash out what that means as I already explained it .

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

1900bce.  12th dynasty official Khnumhotep II under pharaoh Senusret II at Beni Hasan.

 

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ibscha.jpg  

 

 

 

 

Well, that certainly does no suggest  an Empire or even 'Kingdom of David' at all .

 

Look, maybe go back to page 1 and try to understand what I have said numerous times .

 

and whats with this picture ?   Who added 'early Jews to that image ' ... this is your academic proof ?   And why are the other sides labelled 'darker skin ' ?      What was the context of  the source of this .  Its got nothing  to do what I have been saying .

 

I can post pictures from same period that shows a HEAP of other peoples and types and yes they are all distinctive in some way  according to dress, hair style, clothing .  Some them are depicted with arm bindings and things tied to their heads .  Or they might have a distinctive shield . That means they where a people different to the Egyptians , no that all had kingdoms .

[Nungali]

53 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

The Great Hymn to Aten is 18th dynasty, 1300 bce.  The reign of Aten was a dramatic shift away from Egyptian polytheism.  This hymn is dated after the Shasu are recorded entering Egypt.  The sequence of events is:  The Shasu ( early Jews )

 

 

 

Who says they where jews  (besides you and that diagram you put up that merely declared it so

 

THIS Daniel is how one demonstartes the Jewishness of Shasu :

 

The Shasu (Ancient Egyptian: šꜣsw, possibly pronounced šaswə^[1]) were Semitic-speaking pastoral nomads in the Southern Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or the Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were tent dwellers, organized in clans ruled by a tribal chieftain and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon, in the Transjordan and in the Sinai.^[2] Some of them also worked as mercenaries for Asiatic and Egyptian armies

 

Dont sound like no Kingdom to me !

 

Here is a 'Jewish  connection ';

 

The name's etymon may be Egyptian šꜣsw, which originally meant "those who move on foot". Levy, Adams, and Muniz report similar possibilities: the Egyptian word šꜣs that means "to wander", and an alternative Semitic triliteral root, Hebrew: שָׁסַס‎, romanized: šāsas, with the meaning "to plunder" .

 

The Shasu are usually depicted hieroglyphically with a determinative indicating a land, not a people;^[22] the most frequent designation for the "foes of Shasu" is the hill-country determinative.^[23] Thus, they are differentiated from Israel, which is determined as a people, though not necessarily as a socio-ethnic group; and from (the other) Canaanites, who are defending the fortified cities of Ashkelon, Gezer, and Yenoam.^[24]Lawrence Stager also objected to identifying Merneptah's Shasu with Israelites, since the Shasu are shown dressed differently from the Israelites, who are dressed and hairstyled as Canaanites.^[24][25][b] Scholars point out that Egyptian scribes tended to bundle up "rather disparate groups of people within a single artificially unifying rubric."

 

 

53 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

 

enter Egypt, then, Egypt dramatically shifts its religious practices towards what appears to be a version of monotheism.

 

At the very least, because of the late dating, the direction of influence cannot be assumed Hymn to Aten >>> Psalm 104.  It could be that the immigration of Shasu influenced Egypt in the other direction.  That explains the extreme shift in their religion at that time.

 

Do you have another plausible explanation for the dramatic shift?

 

of course, but that is a large diversion into a whole lot of related areas and dynamics  going on Egypt and the MEIS at the time .

 

First off I would want proof that he WAS a monotheist  under the influence of Shasu  note:

 

 

Redford points to three pieces of evidence to support this. First, surviving inscriptions show Amenhotep IV worshipping several different gods, including Atum, Osiris, Anubis, Nekhbet, Hathor,^[67] and the Eye of Ra, and texts from this era refer to "the gods" and "every god and every goddess". The High Priest of Amun was also still active in the fourth year of Amenhotep IV's reign.^[68] Second, even though he later moved his capital from Thebes to Akhetaten, his initial royal titulary honored Thebes—his nomen was "Amenhotep, god-ruler of Thebes"—and recognizing its importance, he called the city "Southern Heliopolis, the first great (seat) of Re (or) the Disc". Third, Amenhotep IV did not yet destroy temples to the other gods and he even continued his father's construction projects at Karnak's Precinct of Amun-Re.^[69] He decorated the walls of the precinct's Third Pylon with images of himself worshipping Ra-Horakhty, portrayed in the god's traditional form of a falcon-headed man.^[70]

 

In any case  " Evidence suggests that the troubles on the northern frontier led to difficulties in Canaan, particularly in a struggle for power between Labaya of Shechem and Abdi-Heba of Jerusalem, which required the pharaoh to intervene in the area by dispatching Medjay troops northwards

 

BUT   what was a Jerusalem ? Part of the Jewish or Israelite  KINGDOM ?

 

The Execration Texts of the Middle Kingdom of Egypt (c. 19th century BCE), which refer to a city called rwšꜣlmm or ꜣwšꜣmm, variously transcribed as Rušalimum, or Urušalimum,^[53][54] may indicate Jerusalem.^[55][56] Alternatively, the Amarna letters of Abdi-Heba (1330s BCE), which reference an Úrušalim, may be the earliest mention of the city.

 

Then we have all the issues of the priests usurping regional power of  the King in Egypt and a whole lot of complex dynamics  invoved in his course of actions .

 

'beecase he copied Jewish '   is rather shallow and lame explanation

 

53 minutes ago, Daniel said:

 

Here is a source for the above:

 

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The Hymn to the Aten

 

In the reign of Amun-hotpe IV-Akhenaten of Dynasty 18 the royal family espoused the worship of the sun disk, the Aten, and neglected the older state and local gods, particularly Amun-Re. The king changed his name from Amun-hotpe (Amun is pleased) to Akhenaten (the effective spirit of the Aten), and he constructed a new residence city at Amarna called Akhet-Aten, the Horizon of the Aten, marked out by royal boundary stelae and filled with temples, palaces, villas for the nobles, workshops for the artisans, and housing for the laborers. Throughout Egypt the names of the old gods were systematicaly hacked out whenever they appeared in public inscriptions on temple walls and elsewhere. The movement was viewed as a reformation, a return to the royal sun-cult of the pyramid builders. It was later regarded as a heresy and did not survive the king's reign. Akhenaten emphasized the international supremacy of the sun disk and his relation to it as a son. In effect, he interposed himself between the Aten and the people, with his worship directed to the Aten and the people's attention focused upon him as the son and interpreter of the Aten. Whether the system can be considered monotheism is debatable. The broad outlook represented in these texts is a development of earlier Egyptian thought with new elements. Noteworthy is the almost anthropologi- cal view of the races of mankind differentiated in color and language. There are close parallels in wording, thought, and sequence of ideas to the verses of Psalm 104. The text is presented in hieroglyphic in N. de G. Davies, The Rock Tombs of el Amarna (London: Archaeological Survey of Egypt, 1908), Pt. 6, pl. 27; this version derives from the tomb of Eye. For a lucid and interpretive account of the king's reign and times, consult Cyril Aldred, Akhenaten, Pharaoh of Egypt, a New Study (London: Thames and Hudson, 1968).

 

W. K. S. 

 

William Kelly Simpson (January 3, 1928 – March 24, 2017)

American professor of Egyptology, Archaeology, Ancient Egyptian literature, and Afro-Asiatic Yale University

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kelly_Simpson

 

 

 

 

 

 

EHHH ?

 

That wasnt the Hymn to the Aten  , why is it headed with that  ?

 

However what you did post under the heading Hymn to the Aten , SUPPORTS what I have been saying and gives you SOME of the answers to your own question   !  see the bits I bolded .

 

and if you STILL cant follow me ; the answers to your question about what other reasons Ankhenaton did what did OTHER than being influenced by  "Jewish monotheism '

 

So thats it , I am not spending longer  explaining how your irreverent diversions are falling apart like an old Chinese motorcycle .

 

Daniel Daniel Daniel  ... maybe take a rest for a bit  - and enjoy your holiday with your family .

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

Back when?

 

The period we where discussing .

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

 

 

Are you asking "why did not anyone else record it?"  Besides the Jewish people who have it in our "holy" scripture?  You're asking why there are no other corroborating sources?

 

 

1. of course, OTHER than the  Torah ... this IS the whole point of the thread you realise ?

 

2.  Collaborating sources that describe a KINGDOM  ...  as I keep saying and you keep fudging on !

 

I  amready to give up on you and write you off as , well not stupid, as you have proved yourself otherwise ... so I have to assume either trolling or    ' somehow only have your comprehension in certain areas' .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Sennacherib's campaign in the Levant in 701 BCE was a military campaign undertaken by the Neo-Assyrian Empire to bring the region back under control following a rebellion against Assyrian rule in 705 BCE

 

We know from various sources there was a battle at  Jerusalem  and ' Lakish' . Now these tow cities are  considered part and proof of the Empire of Judah  .  But we only 'know that  from scripture .

 

 Consider that ;

 

The status of Jerusalem in the 10th century BCE is a major subject of debate.^[10] The oldest part of Jerusalem and its original urban core are the City of David, which does show evidence of significant Israelite residential activity around the 10th century.^[33] Some unique administrative structures such as the Stepped Stone Structure and the Large Stone Structure, which originally formed one structure, contain material culture dated to Iron I.^[10] On account of the alleged lack of settlement activity in the 10th century BCE, Israel Finkelstein argues that Jerusalem was then a small country village in the Judean hills, not a national capital, and Ussishkin argues that the city was entirely uninhabited. Amihai Mazar contends that if the Iron I / Iron II A dating of administrative structures in the City of David are correct, which he believes to be the case, "Jerusalem was a rather small town with a mighty citadel, which could have been a center of a substantial regional polity."^[10]William G. Dever argues that Jerusalem was a small and fortified city, probably inhabited only by the royal court, priests and clerks .

 

and   I can show similar for Tel Lachish .

 

To avoid  a long  list of expose ; I cite one piece of 'supporting documentary evidence

Fake Darius inscription

In 2022, Eylon Levy, an adviser to the Israeli president Isaac Herzog, found an inscribed potsherd while visiting Tel Lachish. The sherd bore an Aramaic inscription that read "Year 24 of Darius," which if genuine would have indicated a date of 498 BCE. The find appeared significant, because it would have been the first time that an inscription bearing the name of Darius the Great had been found in the territory of Yehud Medinata, then a province of the Achaemenid Empire ruled by Darius.^[59] Levy reported it to Saar Ganor of the Israel Antiquities Authority—the director of excavations at Tel Lachish—who concluded after laboratory testing that the sherd was authentic, probably a receipt for goods received or shipped.^[59][60] This led to widespread coverage of the find in the international press.^[61][62][63]

Subsequently the Israel Antiquities Authority issued a statement saying that the sherd was not authentic and had been created by an expert demonstrating inscription techniques to her students. She had come forward after the publicity surrounding the find, and explained she had used an original scrap of worthless pottery from the site and engraved the writing on it. She then discarded it at the tourist section

 

and a bit on the archaeologically 'proved ' 'City of David ' .

 

In 2018, a leaked report by the European Union cited the area as one being developed for tourism

Israeli archaeology at the site has been criticized; Tel Aviv University Professor Rafi Greenberg stated that archaeological practice at the site is "completely subsumed to political and corporate motivations that are, however, largely unacknowledged by its "neutral" practitioners, leading to questionable field practice and overtly skewed interpretations of the past".^[11]

 

In a 2015 report on Israeli archaeology, the National Academy of Sciences criticized the political use of archeology and the extensive cooperation between Elad and the Nature and Parks Authority. Elad's head, David Be’eri, declined to appear before the committee .

 

Its a tourist park .

 

Now I know we can read all over the place  (like bible archaeology sites  ) where the Kingdom Of Judah is mentioned as a  fact , However note , even in wikipedia ;

Campaign in Judah

This section uses texts from within a religion or faith system without referring to secondary sources that critically analyze them.

 

And that is not what I doing  am here , again this is not a faith based analysis !

 

In any case we have people from the area  who most likely (according to various other sources already cited previously )  could be, at the best , considered 'proto jews ' , even in the bible we have all sorts of evidence .

 

many articles casually mention the Kingdom of Judah ... but we notice (or not ! )  the word is highlighted , not taking it at face value , click on the word and get ;

 

Again ; " . Amihai Mazar contends that if the Iron I / Iron II A dating of administrative structures in the City of David are correct, which he believes to be the case, "Jerusalem was a rather small town with a mighty citadel, which could have been a center of a substantial regional polity."^[10]

 

William G. Dever argues that Jerusalem was a small and fortified city, probably inhabited only by the royal court, priests and clerks

 

In any case , these Jews, if they where Jews as we think   didnt appear to have an Empire or Kingdom , they where settled in some towns  and  their outskirts and  where 'wandering pastoral nomads ) .  I am doubting they had a Torah as we know it . nor had any corpus  like from  Genesis  or the early books. But still some where taken back to Babylon ( as slaves and for public works .

 

The deportations occurred in multiple waves: After the siege of Jerusalem in 597 BCE, around 7,000 individuals were deported to Mesopotamia.

 

And they where not the only ones , people from all along their 'expansion' route where captured as well .

 

 605 BCE. First deportation

 597 BCE Siege and fall of Jerusalem - Second deportation.

 

587 BCE  Siege and fall of Jerusalem again, this time temple destroyed  - third deportation .

 

583  BCE    Some bright spark assassinates the  Babylonian appointed  Governor . Many  flee to Egypt to  avoid  and a possible fourth deportation to Babylon.

 

Note ; the trouble started as  Egypt was stirring up trouble and supporting rebellions  against Babylon . This indicates  Egypt either supported them ( friendly relations )  , wanted a 'Buffer' war / problem  away from their country , and had previous ruler ship over the area ( which they did  at times ) , and of course that they where able to flee the enemy into Egypt ... they where allied . 

 

539 Persians capture Babylon .

 

This is significant :  What was the state in that area afterwards ?

 

Babylonian Judah suffered a steep decline in both economy and population^[62] and lost the Negev, the Shephelah, and part of the Judean hill country, including Hebron, to encroachments from Edom and other neighbours.^[63] Jerusalem, destroyed but probably not totally abandoned, was much smaller than previously, and the settlements surrounding it, as well as the towns in the former kingdom's western borders, were all devastated as a result of the Babylonian campaign .... The Babylonian conquest entailed not just the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, but the liquidation of the entire infrastructure which had sustained it .

 

(Note ; I want to look more into what happened here  while the captivity went on in Babylon . The Bibl story here goes into what the captives supposed continued on with .

 

This is significant , because of they returned home to a still fractured  and devastated  ( as its only 50 years later ) homeland  ( with  LOTS of dosh ... LOTS ! ) and a story ... it would be into this environment they where received .  This could explain the acceptance of 'lost scripture and past stories of greatness .

 

538 Cyrus allows  them to return to their homeland .

 

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 I will make another post at some stage  to continue this and examine the  several dynamics between captive Judeans * , and Persia, why Cyrus  would want to reinstate them and spend so much wealth on it . What relations Persia and Egypt had at the time . .. as a backdrop to speculating how and why a 'reverse engineered'  and adopted history was made * *  to return to Jerusalem with .

 

^{*  Judah and Judean also indicate an area  and the people in that area ;}

 

**  This has been shown earlier with lists of things they  appropriated from other cultures into their own cultural story that clearly come from Mesopotamia  and other places and way predate any of these occurrences