The Construction of Judaism

[Nungali]

Lets look at a range of things :    Ancient Egyptian Text		Biblical Text
“At the moment of creation, Atum spoke: I alone am the creator.  When I came into being, all life began to develop.  When the almighty speaks, all else comes to life.  There were no heavens and no earth, There was no dry land and there were no reptiles in the land…” – Hymn to Atum, Old Kingdom (2575-2134 BCE)		“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep…” – Genesis 1: 1-2
“The ka-souls of all the living were created in the image of Ptah.  All formed in his heart and by his tongue.”  – The Hymn to Ptah, 19th Dynasty (1307 – 1196 BCE)		“So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them.” – Genesis 1:27
“Having done all these things, Ptah rested and was content with his work.” – The Hymn to Ptah		“God saw all that he had made, and it was very good… By the seventh day God had finished… so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.” – Genesis 1:31-2:1
“He let me choose my own land from among his holdings within the Land of Yaa. It was a land overflowing with figs and grapes. It had more wine than water, honey and oil in abundance.” – Stories of Sinuhe, (1991 – 1962 BCE)		“to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” – Exodus 3:8; 13: 5
“To: Pharoah, Ruler of the Heavens and Earth From: Biridiya, Governor of Megiddo”  – El-Amarna Letters, (1391 – 1353 BCE), letters were addressed to Amenophis III and Akenaten by their govenors in Syria-Palestine		“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.” – Acts 17: 24
“Divine plans are one thing. Human desires are another.” – Teachings of Ankhsheshonq, Egypt (c. 4th century BCE)		“In their hearts human beings plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.” – Proverbs 16: 9
“One day a strong man from Syria-Palestine pushed his way into my tent and challenged me to a duel. He was a warrior without equal. He had never lost a duel… Every heart embraced me as the underdog… He was armed with a shield, an ax, and a whole armful of javelins. One after another, I dodged his javelins and sidestepped his arrows. I waited finally the strong man rushed me, then I shot him in the neck with an arrow. With a loud cry he fell on his face, mortally wounded. I finished him off with his own ax, and then stood on his back and let out my battle cry while all the people of Syria-Palestine thundered their applause.” – Stories of Sinuhe, (c. 1991 – 1962 BCE)		“A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp…He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze…, on his legs he bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back…Reaching into his bag and taking out a stone, [David] slung it and struck the Philistine in the forehead. The stone sank into his forehead, and he fell facedown on the ground… David ran and stood over him.  He took hold of the Philistine’s sword and drew it … After he killed him, he cut off his head with a sword… Then the men of Israel and Judah surged forward with a shout and pursued the Philistines…” – 1 Samuel 17: 4 – 10, 49 – 52
“You are human, not divine.  Your task is to live life to its fullest.”		“I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live.” – Ecclesiastes 3: 12
“Surely, whoever goes to the land of the dead will be wise, will have a hearing before Re the creator.” – A Sufferer and a Soul in Egypt, (2050 – 1800 BCE)		“But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.” – Matthew 12: 36
“I, Khnum, say to Hatshepsut, The divine potter says to the child of Amun-Re: ‘I have created you from the divine patron of Karnak. I have made you a divine child.’” – Annals of Hatshepsut, (1473-1458 BCE)		“Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.” – Isaiah 64:8
“I will extol your name throughout the land…” – A Farmer and the Courts in Egypt, (2134 – 2040 BCE)		“I will declare your name to my people; in the assembly I will praise you.” – Psalm 22: 22
“I am you servant. Do with me what you will.” “I, Amun-Re, promise Ahmose, The divine patron of Thebes says to the queen: ‘I have given you a child, You will name her Hatshepsut… She will reign over the land of Egypt…” – Annals of Hatshepsut		“The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, ‘You are… going to become pregnant and give birth to a son… the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines.” – Judges 13: 3 – 5
Hatshepsut, like many rulers in the world of the Bible was celebrated as a child of a human mother and a divine father.		“But the angel said to her, … ‘You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of God… he will reign over the house of Jacob forever…’”  “I am the Lord’s servant ,” Mary answered. “May it be to me according to your word.” – Luke 1: 31 – 38
“Her breasts are mandrake blossoms. Her arms are vines, Her eyes are shaded like berries. Her head is a trap built from the branches… and I am the goose. Her hair is the bait in the trap… to ensnare me.” – Egyptian Love Song #3, time of Ramses II (1290 – 1224 BCE)		“The mandrakes send out their fragrance, and at our door is every delicacy, both new and old, that I have stored up for you, my beloved.” – Song of Songs 7: 13   “Your hair is like royal tapestry; the king is held captive by its tresses.” – Song of Songs 7: 5
“Do unto others, As you would have others do unto you.” – A Farmer and the Courts in Egypt, Egypt, (2134-2040 BCE)		“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you.” – Matthew 7: 12
“Birds fly to their nests, They spread their wings to praise our ka.”		“The birds of the sky nest by the waters; they sing among the branches.” – Psalm 104: 12
“You massage the fetus in its mother’s womb.”		“You knit me together in my mother’s womb.” – Psalm 139: 13
“You count out to each the days of life.”- Hymn to the Aten, (1353 – 1335 BCE)		“The days of mortals are determined; you have decreed the number of their months…” – Job 14: 5
“Finally, my students, remember, the wise follow their teachers’ advice, Consequently, their projects do not fail.”		“My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, … and applying your hear to understanding… He holds success in store for the upright.” – Proverbs 2: 1 – 2, 7
“Stay away from the women of another’s house.  Keep our mind on business, your eyes off pretty faces. Foolish dreamers become causalities of unwise actions.  Succumb to love sickness and lust, and nothing you do will succeed.” – “Teachings of Ptah-Hotep, (2575 – 2134 BCE)		“This teaching is a light…keeping you from your neighbor’s wife, from the smooth talk of a wayward woman.  Do not lust in your heart after her beauty.” – Proverbs 6: 23, 24 – 25
“Do not go to bed worrying, Wondering: ‘What will tomorrow bring?’ No one knows what tomorrow brings…”  – Teaching 18		“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.  Each day has enough trouble of its own.” – Matthew 6: 34
“Control your temper… Do not let your tongue steer your life.  Your tongue may be the rudder of your boat, But Amen-Re, your divine patron, must be its pilot.” – Teaching 18		“Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large… they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts…no one can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.” – James 3: 4 – 5, 8
“Do not bear false witness against your neighbor…” – Teaching 19		“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.” – Exodus 20: 16
“Fill your soul with these teachings, Put them in your heart.” – Thirty Teachings of Amen-em-ope (3000 – 2000 BCE)		“These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.” – Deuteronomy 6: 6

 Source:  

 

Matthews, Victor H. and Don C. Benjamin. Old Testament Parallels: Laws and Stories from the Ancient Near East, Fully Revised and Expanded Third Edition. New York/Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press. 2006.

 

Author cred  :   Victor Harold Matthews (born 13 November 1950) is an American Old Testament scholar. He is Dean of the College of Humanities and Public Affairs and professor of religious studies at Missouri State University.

[Nungali]

Further on Exodus ;

 

" There are two main positions on the historicity of the Exodus in modern scholarship.^[1] The majority position is that the biblical Exodus narrative has some historical basis, although there is little of historical fact in it.^[e][5][11] The other position, often associated with the school of Biblical minimalism,^[25][26] is that the biblical exodus traditions are the invention of the exilic and post-exilic Jewish community, with little to no historical basis.^[27]

The biblical Exodus narrative is best understood as a founding myth of the Jewish people, providing an ideological foundation for their culture and institutions, not an accurate depiction of the history of the Israelites.^[28][11] The view that the biblical narrative is essentially correct unless it can explicitly be proved wrong (Biblical maximalism) is today held by "few, if any [...] in mainstream scholarship, only on the more fundamentalist fringes."^[1] There is no direct evidence for any of the people or events of Exodus in non-biblical ancient texts or in archaeological remains, and this has led most scholars to omit the Exodus events from comprehensive histories of Israel.^{[29] "}

 

^{That is from  Wikipedia  -   the premise of this thread  is hardly radical or unknown  !}

[Nungali]

Even if we accept the 'back dating ' of Israelites  .... we are in Egyptian waters .

 

For those of you that dont like a lot of text and prefer a good old Youtube ;

 

 

 

[Cobie]

 

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

you should see the tree that has blossomed all over it in my garden … masses of them all over the tree

Wow, gorgeous flowers. 
 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

… Youtube ;

The audience walked out? Nice fringe on the curtains though.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:28 AM by Cobie

[Sherman Krebbs]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

" If people insist on believing in myths instead of evidence that’s their choice. I think it does tremendous harm to our society for people to refuse to trust our cultural bank of knowledge, which comes from the domain of scientists and historians, not theologians and preachers. "

 

Myth or parable?  There is a big difference between understanding a story as a metaphor to describe some complicated aspect of experience and believing that someone was literally gobbled up by a big fish and managed to escape after three days.   Moral: dont give up or you might get metaphorically f----d by a giant tuna.  

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

Wow, gorgeous flowers. 
 

The audience walked out? Nice fringe on the curtains though.

 

 

 

 

Hey, you know, thats very  possible  !

 

The last lecture I went to for 'Comparative Religion' had three present , out of an initial 30+ . The lecturer said it was normal  , many 'religious people' just can't handle the course as it isn't 'faith based', its University .  Over the weeks they  gradually  walked out - of course failing .  ( The religious people where there as it is a prerequisite  for a few religious colleges  and a path towards being clergy  - they want them to have educated and informed views  before they start in their own specific clergy . So, walking out nullified that aspiration.  )

 

Youtubes are easier , you just stop watching   

 

But we never had curtains like that  .

[Nungali]

52 minutes ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

 

Myth or parable?  There is a big difference between understanding a story as a metaphor to describe some complicated aspect of experience and believing that someone was literally gobbled up by a big fish and managed to escape after three days.   Moral: dont give up or you might get metaphorically f----d by a giant tuna.  

 

 

Oh certainly. I have said a dozen times now - nothing wrong with the Jewish story , and how it has helped them survive and still be here, after all sorts of difficulties and attempted annihilation .

 

Hats off to them !   ( and the story )

 

 

... and I am not worried by no giant tuna ... I got Dali on my side ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Daniel]

16 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

I thought  @Nuralshamal's story about the lady and his toothbrush the other day was pretty falsifiable, rational, scientific evidence on magic which does not require faith.   When someone black magic's your toothbrush you don't have to take it on faith. : )

 

I didn't see that post.  I'll look for it.

 

Falsifiable evidence means that the experiment is designed to include a test to evaluate if the hypothesis is false.  To produce falsifiable evidence that a toothbrush is cursed one would need to develop and execute a test to see if the tooth-brush is NOT cursed.  If there is evidence which is opposing this test, the contra-positive, ( "the evidence shows it's not not-cursed" ) then there is falsifiable evidence supporting the theory.  It's counter-intuitive.  The best experiments include both straight-forward intuitive tests, and counter-intuitive falsifiable tests.  Did @Nuralhamal's story include this?

 

I have never seen falsifiable evidence of Magic.  It is all in the form of, forgive me, not intending to insult, an argument from ignorance.  Argument's from ignorance can always be reduced, simplified, and phrased as an unanswerable question: "Well?  What else could it be?" 

 

On examination of the circumstances of each "magical" event, there is always another mundane explanation for the phenomena which is, at least, equally plausible.  Because of this, there is never falsifiable evidence. There is never evidence "It's not mundane".  In order to be falsifiable, there needs to be evidence of that.  Evidence that "it's not mundane" which is very difficult to rigorously obtain.  It's much more difficult than obtaining evidence of a magical event.

 

16 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

I  for one don't think there is falsifiable, rational, scientific evidence of anything.  There is only experience.  Prove to me the color green. You can come up with an abstract theory about quantum particles flopping around at each other in the void.  But what I experience as green is something else entirely.  I don't need faith to prove what green is, so long as its given a name (there is the bizarre thing where people cant see colors unless they are given a name.  There was a whole tribe in africa that could not see blue because the had no word for it.  Look it up.  I believe this to be true of all experience. )   I for one have experienced and seen aural disturbances, which I have never thought of as pull a dead rabbit out of your hat magic per se.  I dont need faith to know that I have experienced them. I even made paintings of some of them.   You may have experienced deeply spiritual things.  Those experiences do not require faith.  Its the abstract story that you tell yourself around the experience that requires the faith.

 

The example you gave for the color green is a good one.  The color green is a specific wavelength of electromagnetic radiation, but, the label is arbitrary, and the evaluation of what is and what is not "green" is subjective.  "Green" occurs in the mind.  Many who practice magic also consider it an internal practice of the mind-and-heart.  The "magic" is there.  In the individual.  No. it cannot be falsified.  You are correct.

 

However, the comments which I replied to were asserting that a ritual object, a wand, a bowl, has some intrinsic magical quality which a "real magician" can recognize.  An assertion was made that this "magic" can be proven and there is no faith involved at all.  Proven.  It's simply not true.  It's exaggerating.   Wishful thinking.  In order to prove it, it's needed to show that there is not an equally plausible mundane explanation.  In order to prove it, there would need to be consistent measurable results.  Consistent.  One success or two successes does not prove anything.  There would need to be multiple trials to confirm it.

 

16 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

And on that point doesn't faith imply that the the thing itself is patently false.

 

No.  Why do you think so?

 

Faith implies that there is more happening and influencing the phenomena beyond the individual's perception.  It's agnostic.  I am replying to a rigid-gnostic point of view:  "I am certain.  I know ( gnostic ) how magic works.  I know ( gnostic ) it can be proven."

 

^^ it's irrational / border-line delusional ^^

 

Gnostics claim superiority over religious people of faith.  In this case, the grandiose behavior is ... Flamboyant, obvious.  I'm simply showing that the excessive certainty is faith, and, the gnostic-magician is fooling themself. 

 

[Daniel]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

The evidence that Egyptian religion influenced Judaism and Christianity is not far-fetched at all. The Jewish religion has murky Canaanite origins that were strongly influenced by Mesopotamian contact during the Babylonian Captivity

 

And yet, when the two are put side by side, the differences are almost always ignored and omitted.  This is why people get the wrong impression.  Researchers put their fingers on the scale to exaggerate the confidence in their theories.  

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Psalm 104 follows the same format and almost paraphrases the Great Hymn to Aten.  "

 

This is a great example of omitting information to exaggerate.  What you posted is not Psalm 104  and it's the hymn of Aten.  It's abridged.  The cropped out a great deal of both the Psalm and the hymn to make it look like a closer match.

 

 

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

The hymn to Aten is much-much longer than 9 verses.  Psalm 104 is almost 40 verses.  Clearly there is a lot which is being omitted.  Maybe I'll spend some time collecting a proper and complete version of both so they can actually be compared side-by-side.  What you posted is grossly incomplete.

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them.” – Genesis 1:27

 

This is a mistranslation.  In Genesis 1:27 Zachar and N'keivah were created.  These words are often and most correctly translated as masculine and feminine.  Judaism is a religion which asserts that creation is a product of sympathetic yet oppositional pairings.  God, in Judaism, and as written in the Torah is the one which separates these pairings and blesses them. Is that Egyptian?

 

Edited Wednesday at 02:29 PM by Daniel

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Lets look at a range of things : 

 

Yes.  Let's look.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Egyptian:  There were no heavens and no earth

 

 In the Torah, it's written in verse 1, the heavens and the earth existed in/with God, but not in a material form.  That's a big difference.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

of all the living were created in the image of Ptah

 

In Judaism it's written in the Torah, we are created in a shadow in a shadow ( בצלמו בצלם ) of the divine.

 

ויברא אלהים את־האדם בצלמו בצלם אלהים ברא אתו זכר ונקבה ברא אתם׃ 

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Having done all these things, Ptah rested and was content with his work.” – The Hymn to Ptah

 

Hmmm.  I wonder what happened before and after this.  I wonder how many differences are being ignored and omitted from the Hymn to Ptah.  Other than that, this is a good similarity.  There is an Egyptian creation myth where a God rests at the completion.  

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

He let me choose my own land from among his holdings within the Land of Yaa. It was a land overflowing with figs and grapes. It had more wine than water, honey and oil in abundance.” – Stories of Sinuhe, (1991 – 1962 BCE)

 

What?  Stop the presses!

 

There's an Egyptian story of abundance?  In the land of Yaa?  And there's a Jewish story of abundance?  OMG!  What are the odds? 

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

To: Pharoah, Ruler of the Heavens and Earth ...

 

 

BUZZZZZZZZ!

 

Wrong answer.  This is the opposite of Judaism and the Torah. It's not a match.  Pharaoh is a physical human being.  God in the Torah has no physical form, but appears in many forms.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Divine plans are one thing. Human desires are another.” – Teachings of Ankhsheshonq, Egypt (c. 4^th century BCE)

 

Wow.  What a profound and innovative idea.  No one could possibly come up with that on their own without borrowing it.

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

One day a strong man from Syria-Palestine pushed his way into my tent and challenged me to a duel. He was a warrior without equal. He had never lost a duel… Every heart embraced me as the underdog… He was armed with a shield, an ax, and a whole armful of javelins. One after another, I dodged his javelins and sidestepped his arrows. I waited finally the strong man rushed me, then I shot him in the neck with an arrow. With a loud cry he fell on his face, mortally wounded. I finished him off with his own ax, and then stood on his back and let out my battle cry while all the people of Syria-Palestine thundered their applause.” – Stories of Sinuhe, (c. 1991 – 1962 BCE)

 

You've compared this with the story of Goliath, even though their completely different stories with completely different circumstances?  But they both involve a duel, and they both involve sheilds, and an ax,  and a battle cry?

 

By those standards Stan Lee borrowed Spiderman from Dr. Seuss because both stories include a mischievous cat who turns out to be good.  ( See the story of Black-Cat in Spectacular-Spiderman in the mid 80s )

 

It really doesn't take much, does it.  Just a few words in common, and, it' concluded that the stories **must** be related.  It's not far-fetched of an idea, that Judaism borrows from Egyptian religion, until the two are compared side-by-side in detail.  Then it becomes silly.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

You are human, not divine.  Your task is to live life to its fullest.”

 

What a completely novel idea. No one can come up with that unless they borrowed it.  Of course.

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Surely, whoever goes to the land of the dead will be wise, will have a hearing before Re the creator.”

 

Yes.  God is considered a Judge and has a heavenly court in Judaism as well.  It doesn't mean that this idea was borrowed.  It's a natural conclusion anyone can come to on their own.  

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Khnum, say to Hatshepsut, The divine potter says to the child of Amun-Re: ‘I have created you from the divine patron of Karnak. I have made you a divine child.’” – Annals of Hatshepsut, (1473-1458 BCE)

 

Yes.  The potter at the wheel is a common metaphor for God.  Not unique.  Not necessarily borrowed.  But if it was, this is rather insignificant.  The Jewish author is writing in the language and imagery of their cultural context.  The implications are much more important than the style of writing.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

I will extol your name throughout the land…” – A Farmer and the Courts in Egypt

 

Both religions extol the name of their God???!!!

 

That's it.  I'm convinced.  We Jews MUST have borrowed from Egypt because we both extol the name of our God.

 

^^ Absurd ^^

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

I  am you servant. Do with me what you will.” “I, Amun-Re, promise Ahmose, The divine patron of Thebes says to the queen: ‘I have given you a child, You will name her Hatshepsut… She will reign over the land of Egypt…

 

Both religions have prophecies about future rulers of the land?

 

Amazing!  That can ONLY occur if the prophecy was borrowed.

 

Remember when I said this was silly once the two are compared side-by-side?  These are the types of similarities that have been brought?  Both have prophecies of a future monarch?  It's beyond mental gymnastics.  It's nonsense with a "PHD" label.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Hatshepsut, like many rulers in the world of the Bible was celebrated as a child of a human mother and a divine father.

 

Yes, the child-ruler-born-of-god is a common archetype.  It's all over the world, in many cultures.  It could be borrowed, but, you're no longer talking about the construction of Judaism.  We Jews do not believe in a child-ruler-born-of-god.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Her breasts are mandrake blossoms. Her arms are vines, Her eyes are shaded like berries. Her head is a trap built from the branches… and I am the goose. Her hair is the bait in the trap… to ensnare me.

 

There is no similarity here other than the English word "mandrake".  The story in the Torah is not Jacob "ensnared" by his wife's hair or any of her other features.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Do unto others, As you would have others do unto you

 

It's obvious.  Rational.  Anyone can come up with this same idea without borrowing.  I'm sure I can find other examples of the golden-rule in other cultures which are geographically distant from Egypt.  This shows that the golden-rule can co-exist in two different religions without being borrowed.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Birds fly to their nests, They spread their wings to praise our ka.

 

Yes.  It's a common shared human experience:  hearing Bird-song.  Naturally it will be included in a Psalm or a hymn.... Without needing to borrow it.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

You massage the fetus in its mother’s womb.

 

Pregnancy and child-birth = shared human experience = It will naturally occur in writing of many people without the need to borrow the idea.  It's because the authors are human, and share human experiences, even though they have never met and never interacted with each other.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

You count out to each the days of life.”

 

This one, assuming the translation is correct, is a pretty good similarity.  But we would need to read both entire passages and compare them.  Whomever produced this list, did not filter out the false-positives and ridiculous comparison, so, this one will need to be double checked. 

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Finally, my students, remember, the wise follow their teachers’ advice, Consequently, their projects do not fail

 

Both religions advise to listen to their wise teachers and teachings?

 

It MUST be borrowed!

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Stay away from the women of another’s house.  Keep our mind on business, your eyes off pretty faces. Foolish dreamers become causalities of unwise actions.  Succumb to love sickness and lust, and nothing you do will succeed.”

 

The Egyptian religion invented these ideas and Judaism copied them?

 

No.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Do not go to bed worrying, Wondering: ‘What will tomorrow bring?’ No one knows what tomorrow brings…”  – Teaching 18

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Control your temper… Do not let your tongue steer your life.  Your tongue may be the rudder of your boat, But Amen-Re, your divine patron, must be its pilot.” – Teaching 18

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Do not bear false witness against your neighbor…” – Teaching 19

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Fill your soul with these teachings, Put them in your heart.

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

Edited Wednesday at 02:31 PM by Daniel

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Author cred  :   Victor Harold Matthews (born 13 November 1950) is an American Old Testament scholar. He is Dean of the College of Humanities and Public Affairs and professor of religious studies at Missouri State University.

 

Yes, your faith in the "scholar" is noted.  If you read the post above, you'll see that there are 2 good similarities in the list.  The rest are either common sense which anyone can think of on their own, no borrowing needed, or, they're not matches other than a few matching words in an English translation which does not do justice to the meaning of the Hebrew text.

Edited Wednesday at 02:27 PM by Daniel

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

Even if we accept the 'back dating ' of Israelites  .... we are in Egyptian waters .

 

For those of you that dont like a lot of text and prefer a good old Youtube ;

 

 

 

 

Maybe I'll check it out to see what mistakes were made, and what information was omitted.

[Daniel]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

'religious people' just can't handle the course as it isn't 'faith based

 

@Sherman Krebbs, this is what I was talking about.

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

Gnostics claim superiority over religious people of faith.  In this case, the grandiose behavior is ... Flamboyant, obvious.  I'm simply showing that the excessive certainty is faith, and, the gnostic-magician is fooling themself. 

 

 

[Thrice Daily]

<NO!!!!>

< I INVENTED THE WHEEL!!!!!!!! >

This could take a while.

 

God love us…  

[Daniel]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

That is from  Wikipedia  -   the premise of this thread  is hardly radical or unknown  !

 

It's not radical or unknown. It's a theory whose certainty is exaggerated by ignorance and false assumptions.

 

Almost all of the examples of so-called borrowing dissolve under rational examination.  Those who object to faith, suddenly become extremely religious in their devotion to their "knowledge" rejecting any facts which challenges it with moderation.

[Sherman Krebbs]

 

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

No.  Why do you think so?

 

Something is or it is not.  If it is, it need not be taken on faith.  Therefore, (via transposition), if it is taken on faith, it is not. 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

this is what I was talking about.

 

I know nothing of magic, and have only had my own delusional experiences.  I am having one right now.  I blame the black magic curse I am under.   I guess the point was that if Nungali has experienced magic, he does not have to have faith in it.   If you have experienced god, you do not have to have faith in that.  If I have experienced a pinacolada slurpee from 7-11 (it was a long time ago)  I do not have to have faith in that either.  

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

@Nungali I know you are a little sceptical to YouTube, but I think youll actually might enjoy this:

It is about how judaism (or at the very least, OT) is either a persian or hellenistic construct (or both), based on research by the school of copenhagen.

One argument I found really compelling, is the almost, if not complete, lack of historians mentioning Israel prior to the hellenistic era. Think about the areas Herodotus mentioned: phoenicians, assyrians, and egyptians (all their neighboors), and even far away people such as the arabs, India, Ethiopia and hyperborrea. Despite this, he seems to have no idea that jews existed.

 

I am considering checking out some of the books they refference.

 

no pressure 

Edited Wednesday at 05:30 PM by Sir Darius the Clairvoyent

[Sir Darius the Clairvoyent]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

Maybe I'll check it out to see what mistakes were made, and what information was omitted.

What a scientific and open minded approach, haha..

[Cobie]

 

4 hours ago, Sherman Krebbs said:

Something is or it is not.  …

Faith concerns itself with the unknowable.

 

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

… Faith implies that there is more happening and influencing the phenomena beyond the individual's perception.

 

Exactly.  

 

Quote

  It's agnostic. …

Yes. E.g. ecclesiastes 3:11 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:41 PM by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

		“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.” – Acts 17: 24
		“But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.” – Matthew 12: 36
		“But the angel said to her, … ‘You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of God… he will reign over the house of Jacob forever…’”  “I am the Lord’s servant ,” Mary answered. “May it be to me according to your word.” – Luke 1: 31 – 38
		“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you.” – Matthew 7: 12
		“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself.  Each day has enough trouble of its own.” – Matthew 6: 34
		“Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large… they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts…no one can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.” – James 3: 4 – 5, 8

 

 

Why are you quoting from the NT? This thread is about ‘The construction of Judaism’.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 09:14 PM by Cobie

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

However, the comments which I replied to were asserting that a ritual object, a wand, a bowl, has some intrinsic magical quality which a "real magician" can recognize.  An assertion was made that this "magic" can be proven and there is no faith involved at all.  Proven.  It's simply not true.  It's exaggerating.  

 

Another load of Daniel BS !  That was NOT was said at all . If it was you could directly quote it - its a twisted Daniel paraphrasing !

Rubbish !  I said I used the 'scientific method' to write up a ritual and results as one would write up a scientific experiment and I gave direct examples . 

 

 

^^ it's irrational / border-line delusional ^^

 

Yes, it certainly was !

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

And yet, when the two are put side by side, the differences are almost always ignored and omitted.  This is why people get the wrong impression.  Researchers put their fingers on the scale to exaggerate the confidence in their theories.  

 

 

This is a great example of omitting information to exaggerate.  What you posted is not Psalm 104  and it's the hymn of Aten.  It's abridged.  The cropped out a great deal of both the Psalm and the hymn to make it look like a closer match.

 

 

 

The hymn to Aten is much-much longer than 9 verses.  Psalm 104 is almost 40 verses.  Clearly there is a lot which is being omitted.  Maybe I'll spend some time collecting a proper and complete version of both so they can actually be compared side-by-side.  What you posted is grossly incomplete.

 

 

Yeah ... thats because it an exercise in showing similarities !  You are REALLY scrapping the barrel here !

 

I tell ya what, you make up your list and send it in to ;

 

Victor Harold Matthews (born 13 November 1950) is an American Old Testament scholar. He is Dean of the College of Humanities and Public Affairs and professor of religious studies at Missouri State University.

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Daniel said:

 

Yes.  Let's look.

 

 

 In the Torah, it's written in verse 1, the heavens and the earth existed in/with God, but not in a material form.  That's a big difference.

 

 

In Judaism it's written in the Torah, we are created in a shadow in a shadow ( בצלמו בצלם ) of the divine.

 

ויברא אלהים את־האדם בצלמו בצלם אלהים ברא אתו זכר ונקבה ברא אתם׃ 

 

 

Hmmm.  I wonder what happened before and after this.  I wonder how many differences are being ignored and omitted from the Hymn to Ptah.  Other than that, this is a good similarity.  There is an Egyptian creation myth where a God rests at the completion.  

 

 

What?  Stop the presses!

 

There's an Egyptian story of abundance?  In the land of Yaa?  And there's a Jewish story of abundance?  OMG!  What are the odds? 

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

 

 

BUZZZZZZZZ!

 

Wrong answer.  This is the opposite of Judaism and the Torah. It's not a match.  Pharaoh is a physical human being.  God in the Torah has no physical form, but appears in many forms.

 

 

Wow.  What a profound and innovative idea.  No one could possibly come up with that on their own without borrowing it.

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

 

You've compared this with the story of Goliath, even though their completely different stories with completely different circumstances?  But they both involve a duel, and they both involve sheilds, and an ax,  and a battle cry?

 

By those standards Stan Lee borrowed Spiderman from Dr. Seuss because both stories include a mischievous cat who turns out to be good.  ( See the story of Black-Cat in Spectacular-Spiderman in the mid 80s )

 

It really doesn't take much, does it.  Just a few words in common, and, it' concluded that the stories **must** be related.  It's not far-fetched of an idea, that Judaism borrows from Egyptian religion, until the two are compared side-by-side in detail.  Then it becomes silly.

 

 

What a completely novel idea. No one can come up with that unless they borrowed it.  Of course.

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

 

Yes.  God is considered a Judge and has a heavenly court in Judaism as well.  It doesn't mean that this idea was borrowed.  It's a natural conclusion anyone can come to on their own.  

 

 

Yes.  The potter at the wheel is a common metaphor for God.  Not unique.  Not necessarily borrowed.  But if it was, this is rather insignificant.  The Jewish author is writing in the language and imagery of their cultural context.  The implications are much more important than the style of writing.

 

 

Both religions extol the name of their God???!!!

 

That's it.  I'm convinced.  We Jews MUST have borrowed from Egypt because we both extol the name of our God.

 

^^ Absurd ^^

 

 

Both religions have prophecies about future rulers of the land?

 

Amazing!  That can ONLY occur if the prophecy was borrowed.

 

Remember when I said this was silly once the two are compared side-by-side?  These are the types of similarities that have been brought?  Both have prophecies of a future monarch?  It's beyond mental gymnastics.  It's nonsense with a "PHD" label.

 

 

Yes, the child-ruler-born-of-god is a common archetype.  It's all over the world, in many cultures.  It could be borrowed, but, you're no longer talking about the construction of Judaism.  We Jews do not believe in a child-ruler-born-of-god.

 

 

There is no similarity here other than the English word "mandrake".  The story in the Torah is not Jacob "ensnared" by his wife's hair or any of her other features.

 

 

It's obvious.  Rational.  Anyone can come up with this same idea without borrowing.  I'm sure I can find other examples of the golden-rule in other cultures which are geographically distant from Egypt.  This shows that the golden-rule can co-exist in two different religions without being borrowed.

 

 

Yes.  It's a common shared human experience:  hearing Bird-song.  Naturally it will be included in a Psalm or a hymn.... Without needing to borrow it.

 

 

Pregnancy and child-birth = shared human experience = It will naturally occur in writing of many people without the need to borrow the idea.  It's because the authors are human, and share human experiences, even though they have never met and never interacted with each other.

 

 

This one, assuming the translation is correct, is a pretty good similarity.  But we would need to read both entire passages and compare them.  Whomever produced this list, did not filter out the false-positives and ridiculous comparison, so, this one will need to be double checked. 

 

 

Both religions advise to listen to their wise teachers and teachings?

 

It MUST be borrowed!

 

^^ Sarcasm ^^

 

 

The Egyptian religion invented these ideas and Judaism copied them?

 

No.

 

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

 

It's common sense.  No borrowing needed.

 

   I luv the way you are challenging ME on all this   

 

again, take it up with Victor Harold Matthews (born 13 November 1950) is an American Old Testament scholar. He is Dean of the College of Humanities and Public Affairs and professor of religious studies at Missouri State University.